The EU Referendum (How did you vote?)

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Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

I couldn't agree more.

The "everything my party does" attitude isn't really politics. It's just another form of tribalism.

I'm left of centre and I used to vote Labour without question. I changed to SNP and now, because of my location, I've been voting Liberal.

I can see the good in all 3 and I can see the faults.

Those who can't, or won't, aren't being political. They're being blind.

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Good post. Independence is my ultimate goal so the SNP get my vote each and every election. If Scottish Labour ever came out in support of independence they would possibly get my vote. I don't believe everything the SNP have done is brilliant by any stretch of the imagination but I do think that overall they have done better over the last 10 years than the UK government have done in the same timeframe

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Originally Posted by lord bunberry

I think at the time they saw Labour as the enemy and a change might have brought about a different approach. They were wrong, but you can see why they did it. They may have had a hand in facilitating a Thatcher government, but they weren’t responsible for her actions and she would’ve won the next election anyway and history would’ve been no different.

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Shhht. Labour are the highly economically competent "good heart" party and Radge will not stand for anybody to suggest otherwise. It was ALL the SNPs fault. Tartan tories... etc :greengrin

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Originally Posted by lord bunberry

Thatcher was going to win the next election no matter what the SNP did. The actions of the SNP only brought the inevitable forward by a few months. The labour government at the time was a complete disaster and had completely betrayed the people of Scotland. Labour brought in Thatcher through incompetence and infighting.

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Yet as Hibbyradge points out, Labour actually increased their seats in Scotland in the 1979 election while the SNP were reduced from 11 to two. On that basis it could be argued the people of Scotland with left-leaning views saw the SNP as the party which had betrayed them. The Tartan Tories moniker dogged them for at least a decade after that.

Incidentally, it's often forgotten that in those early days of Thatcher she enjoyed a significant degree of popularity in Scotland, with the Tories winning 22 seats that year.

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Originally Posted by G B Young

Incidentally, it's often forgotten that in those early days of Thatcher she enjoyed a significant degree of popularity in Scotland, with the Tories winning 22 seats that year.

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Should also be noted that out of the 9 seats the SNP lost. 6 of them were gained by the Tories and only 3 of them were picked up by Labour. Also after 4 years of Thatcher, Labour lost 3 seats to the SDP–Liberal Alliance and the tories only lost 1 seat.

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Originally Posted by lord bunberry

I think at the time they saw Labour as the enemy and a change might have brought about a different approach. They were wrong, but you can see why they did it. They may have had a hand in facilitating a Thatcher government, but they weren’t responsible for her actions and she would’ve won the next election anyway and history would’ve been no different.

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They voted against the Labour government because it wouldn't give any concessions on the devolution vote.

Callaghan warned them that they were turkey's voting for Christmas, and so it transpired.

The SNP were much more right wing in those days and it wasn't until the likes of Alex Salmond started rising in the ranks that it's politics moved leftward.

Regardless of what may or may not have happened a few months down the line, the SNP were understandably blamed for putting Thatcher in No.10.

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Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

Regardless of what may or may not have happened a few months down the line, the SNP were understandably blamed for putting Thatcher in No.10.

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Then why didn't the seats the SNP lost initially all go to labour? Most of them went to the Conservatives.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Then why didn't the seats the SNP lost initially all go to labour? Most of them went to the Conservatives.

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SNP/Tories same thing.

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Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

SNP/Tories same thing.

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:greengrin

Can't wait for the tories in Scotland to state that they were pro-independence all along and were just kidding us on.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Shhht. Labour are the highly economically competent "good heart" party and Radge will not stand for anybody to suggest otherwise. It was ALL the SNPs fault. Tartan tories... etc :greengrin

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"The highly competent "good heart" party". WTF? Are you a child?

Putting words into my mouth and hiding behind the things you've made up doesn't alter the truth.

I know you hate it, and I can feel you squirming from here, but the SNP were known as the Tartan Tories for decades because of what they did.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

:greengrin

Can't wait for the tories in Scotland to state that they were pro-independence all along and were just kidding us on.

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No, they were just right wing like their friends in the SNP.

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Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

No, they were just right wing like their friends in the SNP.

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What "right wing" things have the SNP ever done in government? I'll be happy to draw up a list of right wing things Labour have done. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

What "right wing" things have the SNP ever done in government? I'll be happy to draw up a list of right wing things Labour have done. :wink:

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Stop trying to change the subject. Stop using straw man arguments. Please.

The Tartan Tories voted Thatcher into No. 10. They were pro-independence, but they were right wing.

List anything you like, in fact fill your boots, but I'm not arguing the merits or otherwise of the Labour Party.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Then why didn't the seats the SNP lost initially all go to labour? Most of them went to the Conservatives.

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The way the SNP were perceived at that time, certainly by most Labour voters, were that they were targeting the same right of centre voters as the Tories.

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Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

but I'm not arguing the merits or otherwise of the Labour Party.

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You still can't bring yourself to say that Labour aren't the "good guy" party that they have always portrayed themselves as. :faf:

I give up.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

You still can't bring yourself to say that Labour aren't the "good guy" party that they have always portrayed themselves as. :faf:

I give up.

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:faf:

What are you talking about?

Who said anything about them being a "good guy" party? And why would they? :faf:

I wish you would give up inventing things so you can win a non existent argument.

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Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

I remember that government and they were making a mess of pretty much everything.

But, the SNP wanted Thatcher in and they wanted her in asap.

As collosal a political mistake as you're ever likely to see.(and then I remembered Brexit! :wink:)

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The SNP had already tanked pre-1979.

https://i.postimg.cc/wj0hYJNt/E5-DB5...-FBD3-E5-E.png

Enjoying yourself under that bridge? :wink:

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

The SNP had already tanked pre-1979.

https://i.postimg.cc/wj0hYJNt/E5-DB5...-FBD3-E5-E.png

Enjoying yourself under that bridge? :wink:

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Aye, they had.

I can't remember what happened to push them down from the heights of 1974. :dunno:

They lost even more ground after March 79 so it really does look like voting against Labour was self defeating madness at the time, never mind in hindsight.

They're flavour of the month now and I'm hopeful the 45 will turn into 51+, but if they don't succeed soon, that month might be shorter than we hope.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

Shhht. Labour are the highly economically competent "good heart" party and Radge will not stand for anybody to suggest otherwise. It was ALL the SNPs fault. Tartan tories... etc :greengrin

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:agree: The reality as we all know is anything but. There can be no doubt that Labour are the reason we had to endure Thatcher.

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Originally Posted by G B Young

Yet as Hibbyradge points out, Labour actually increased their seats in Scotland in the 1979 election while the SNP were reduced from 11 to two. On that basis it could be argued the people of Scotland with left-leaning views saw the SNP as the party which had betrayed them. The Tartan Tories moniker dogged them for at least a decade after that.

Incidentally, it's often forgotten that in those early days of Thatcher she enjoyed a significant degree of popularity in Scotland, with the Tories winning 22 seats that year.

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I agree. Any party seen to be siding with the tories in Scotland have paid a heavy price. I would suggest that at the time the SNP were put in an impossible position. Vote with Labour who had just shafted Scotland or try and get rid of them and hope Scotland returned them in greater numbers. It was obviously a disaster, but imo they did the right thing. Ever since then, we have realised that both Labour and the tories are one in the same, enemy’s of Scotland.

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Originally Posted by lord bunberry

:agree: The reality as we all know is anything but. There can be no doubt that Labour are the reason we had to endure Thatcher.

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Labour's incompetence, the extreme left, the unions and the utter industrial relations mess in the country all through the 70s, paved the way for someone like Thatcher.

In '83 the Labour left, Michael Foot and the Falklands war, kept her there.

But it was the SNP that laid out the red carpet.

(I have no idea what he's talking about when he refers to the "good heart" party or the rest of that sentence.)

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Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

Labour's incompetence, the extreme left, the unions and the utter industrial relations mess in the country all through the 70s, paved the way for someone like Thatcher.

In '83 the Labour left, Michael Foot and the Falklands war, kept her there.

But it was the SNP that laid out the red carpet.

(I have no idea what he's talking about when he refers to the "good heart" party or the rest of that sentence.)

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The carpet was already laid out. Do you know what i'm talking about when I say that?

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Originally Posted by lord bunberry

I agree. Any party seen to be siding with the tories in Scotland have paid a heavy price. I would suggest that at the time the SNP were put in an impossible position. Vote with Labour who had just shafted Scotland or try and get rid of them and hope Scotland returned them in greater numbers. It was obviously a disaster, but imo they did the right thing. Ever since then, we have realised that both Labour and the tories are one in the same, enemy’s of Scotland.

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I certainly don't think it was the right thing to do. I left the SNP because of that.

Would the SNP vote with the Tories against Labour again? If they, like you, think that they're both the same, it sounds like they would.

I've heard this "enemy of the people" type chat before somewhere ...

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Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

Labour's incompetence, the extreme left, the unions and the utter industrial relations mess in the country all through the 70s, paved the way for someone like Thatcher.

In '83 the Labour left, Michael Foot and the Falklands war, kept her there.

But it was the SNP that laid out the red carpet.

(I have no idea what he's talking about when he refers to the "good heart" party or the rest of that sentence.)

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That’s nonsense. The SNP had the interests of Scotland to consider and that has and always will trump the interests of the UK. They didn’t roll out the red carpet, they did what was best for Scotland at the time. Labour absolutely shafted Scotland by imposing the criteria they they did on the referendum at the time. It was a watershed moment in politics in Scotland. We can’t trust whatever party is in power at Westminster.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

The carpet was already laid out. Do you know what i'm talking about when I say that?

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There was no carpet until the SNP voted to put Thatcher in office. Along with the DUP, THE UUP and the UUUP. Lovely bedfellows.

What did you mean about good heart party and what has it to do with me?

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Originally Posted by lord bunberry

That’s nonsense. The SNP had the interests of Scotland to consider and that has and always will trump the interests of the UK. They didn’t roll out the red carpet, they did what was best for Scotland at the time. Labour absolutely shafted Scotland by imposing the criteria they they did on the referendum at the time. It was a watershed moment in politics in Scotland. We can’t trust whatever party is in power at Westminster.

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How was putting Thatcher in no. 10 in the interests of Scotland?

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Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

I certainly don't think it was the right thing to do. I left the SNP because of that.

Would the SNP vote with the Tories against Labour again? If they, like you, think that they're both the same, it sounds like they would.

I've heard this"enemy of the people" type chat before somewhere ...

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What else could they have done? Labour had betrayed them and Thatcher was promising change. She was lying, but at the time no one knew that.

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Originally Posted by lord bunberry

What else could they have done? Labour had betrayed them and Thatcher was promising change. She was lying, but at the time no one knew that.

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The conservative and unionist party were never going to right Labour's wrong. Thatcher didn't promise or even offer Scotland anything. She didn't have to because the SNP had already stated their position regarding the confidence motion.

The SNP had been negotiating for concessions from Labour. Labour flatly refused them, wrongly in my view, and the SNP were put in the position of either rolling over or trying to maintain credibility.

I understand why they chose the latter, but to say it was in interest of the Scottish people is stretching it.

They may have felt that they were in between the devil and the deep blue sea, but they really did choose the devil.

You can argue forever and a day about 1979 but it’s the Labour Party today who stand shoulder to shoulder with their better together buddies the Tories.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

There was no carpet until the SNP voted to put Thatcher in office. Along with the DUP, THE UUP and the UUUP. Lovely bedfellows.

What did you mean about good heart party and what has it to do with me?

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What do you think would have happened to the SNP had they backed Labour in a vote of no confidence after what they did to Scotland? Do you think the SNP supporters would have been any happier with the party in that instance?

I have to give the Labour Party credit here. They set up the perfect trap for the SNP, by putting them in position where it didn't really matter what they did.

I'm referring to Labours "for the many, not the few" tripe. Always imaging themselves as the party of social justice and equality, then taking liberties when they actually get into power.

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Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee

What do you think would have happened to the SNP had they backed Labour in a vote of no confidence after what they did to Scotland? Do you think the SNP supporters would have been any happier with the party in that instance?

I have to give the Labour Party credit here. They set up the perfect trap for the SNP, by putting them in position where it didn't really matter what they did.

I'm referring to Labours "for the many, not the few" tripe. Always imaging themselves as the party of social justice and equality, then taking liberties when they actually get into power.

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They didn't have to back Labour in a vote of confidence, there wasn't going to be one, but they decided to put the motion forward themselves.

There was no trap laid by Labour. The Tartan Tories laid it off their own back.

I have no idea why you're banging on about Labour. I'm not defending them. I'm not even discussing them. They were pish then and they're pish now. You've still not explained what they've got to do with me.

However, there was no excuse for the SNP siding with Thatcher, yet you defend it. That's shameful and not just a touch hypocritical.