Missing submersible

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Originally Posted by grunt

This is a modern day horror story, I'm sure we can all use our imagination to put ourselves in the position of those in trouble. I hope that they are found and rescued.

In terms of the media coverage, it's a handy distraction from stories of lying PMs, sky high inflation and the cost of living crisis. Right wing press in particular will be happy that this has pushed the Tory bad news stories off the front pages.

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I'm sure they are happy, But it doesn't negate the story

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Originally Posted by archie

And?

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So it's a good stab at extrapolation of motive based on what they set out to do.

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Originally Posted by archie

I'm sure they are happy, But it doesn't negate the story

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The newspaper owners dictate what stories you see.

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

Sorry, but that's a false comparison. This is more like building your own plane that clearly isn't designed to fly at high altitudes, then ignoring the warnings of professionals and flying it far too high anyway.

Do they deserve this? No they don't. Nobody deserves this. But they are directly responsible for the situation that they find themselves in, all because they thought they knew better than those who actually had experience in doing this kind of thing.

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I don't think that is true?

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

My understanding is that they were involved in the making of this contraption. Perhaps not directly, but they set the budget for it and hired the team they wanted. I also think I heard on the news that there were warnings that it couldn't safely reach anywhere near the depths of the Titanic and that people were sacked from the project for raising those concerns. Regardless of whether they had any direct input or not, there were a series of red flags raised leading up to this which were seemingly ignored.

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So you think you heard something so have repeatedly stated it as fact on this thread.

What you heard was that a guy raised concerns in 2018, 5 years worth of development ago.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

I don't think that is true?

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It's not

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

I don't think that is true?

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Originally Posted by Hibernian Verse

So you think you heard something so have repeatedly stated it as fact on this thread.

What you heard was that a guy raised concerns in 2018, 5 years worth of development ago.

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Fair enough. I stand corrected. I've clearly picked things up wrong (I was listening to a multitude of different sources at the same time). I apologize for my misunderstanding of the situation.

In that case the liability falls squarely at the feet of OceanGate and not the people who hired the submarine for the expedition.

Jeez the reverse snobbery on this thread is unbelievable.

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Originally Posted by grunt

This is a modern day horror story, I'm sure we can all use our imagination to put ourselves in the position of those in trouble. I hope that they are found and rescued.

In terms of the media coverage, it's a handy distraction from stories of lying PMs, sky high inflation and the cost of living crisis. Right wing press in particular will be happy that this has pushed the Tory bad news stories off the front pages.

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Agree with all of that.

The irony of dying in a maritime tragedy whilst visiting the site of a maritime tragedy. Has it been established what happened?

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Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

Are folk really saying that we shouldn't care about people in peril because of the amount of money they have.

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I don't think anyone is.

What I do think is happening is that some people are interpretating peoples lack of emotional response on here to being somehow cold and heartless.

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OceanGate, the company that owns the missing submersible, fired an employee a few years ago after he filed safety complaints against them. The employee specifically said the sub was not capable of descending to such extreme depths before he was fired.

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https://newrepublic.com/post/173802/...avel-oceangate

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

Fair enough. I stand corrected. I've clearly picked things up wrong (I was listening to a multitude of different sources at the same time). I apologize for my misunderstanding of the situation.

In that case the liability falls squarely at the feet of OceanGate and not the people who hired the submarine for the expedition.

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I don't think you have anything to apologise for.

The below article lays out a number of serious issues with this vessel and journey:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/21/titanic-submersible-documents-reveal-multiple-concerns-raised-over-safety-of-vessel

This is no way means what is happening to those on board isn't a horrendous tragedy. But they have wilfully undertaken an enormously dangerous activity, and I can't see any greater benefit to mankind here, unlike say astronauts who put themselves in huge danger for the advancement of human knowledge. .

I'll repeat, no one should have to go through this but they have all gone into it knowing it was a very real possibility.

You can feel devastated for those involved, whilst also questioning the wider reaction and noting the above points without being a monster.

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Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba

The irony of dying in a maritime tragedy whilst visiting the site of a maritime tragedy. Has it been established what happened?

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It hasn't been confirmed exactly what the issue is yet. But it's most likely that the submarine went down to a depth that it was never designed or certified to go down to. It has been said that because of the experimental design of the submarine, it was only certified to go down to a depth of 1,300 meters. Which is only about a 3rd of the depth of the Titanic ruin site which is approximately 3,800 meters below the ocean surface level. It may be that due to the sheer water pressure at that depth, the Submersible simply lacks the power required to make it's way back up to the surface.

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Originally Posted by neil7908

I don't think you have anything to apologise for.

You can feel devastated for those involved, whilst also questioning the wider reaction and noting the above points without being a monster.

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Thanks. Admittedly my understanding of the overall situation was somewhat off though, so only right that I hold my hand up to that. But you are correct, there were certainly warnings raised well before this expedition took place. Whether the people on board were made aware of these warnings or not, I'm not so sure.

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Originally Posted by neil7908

I don't think you have anything to apologise for.

The below article lays out a number of serious issues with this vessel and journey:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...fety-of-vessel

This is no way means what is happening to those on board isn't a horrendous tragedy. But they have wilfully undertaken an enormously dangerous activity, and I can't see any greater benefit to mankind here, unlike say astronauts who put themselves in huge danger for the advancement of human knowledge. .

I'll repeat, no one should have to go through this but they have all gone into it knowing it was a very real possibility.

You can feel devastated for those involved, whilst also questioning the wider reaction and noting the above points without being a monster.

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:agree:

I've never really thought of being able to feel 2 or more things at once as a great skill but maybe it is after all.

I've always been a bit uncomfortable with what I suppose you could call extreme expeditions or extreme tourism. Obviously all travel carries an element of risk but getting on a plane that is subject to industry standards and operational licensing is somewhat different from poking about on a submarine at depths way beyond what experienced naval personnel will built by a man who had this to say not so long ago: 'Bringing an outside entity up to speed on every innovation before it is put into real-world testing is anathema to rapid innovation'. It's not a new phenomenon, people with no expertise and minimal experience have paid to be almost literally dragged up Everest for decades, the 1996 disaster is an example of how that can go spectacularly wrong. Same with space tourism, a disaster in that sphere is inevitable at some point. A lot of it just seems to show a real disregard and lack of respect for nature and that will always have consequences. It's incomparable to experienced mountaineers or divers who have honed their craft and developed their skills over many years.

It is a tragedy and the wealth of those involved is irrelevant but I'm not sure that means we can't have a (respectful) discussion around the other issues surrounding the whole situation and reaction to it.

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

It hasn't been confirmed exactly what the issue is yet. But it's most likely that the submarine went down to a depth that it was never designed or certified to go down to. It has been said that because of the experimental design of the submarine, it was only certified to go down to a depth of 1,300 meters. Which is only about a 3rd of the depth of the Titanic ruin site which is approximately 3,800 meters below the ocean surface level. It may be that due to the sheer water pressure at that depth, the Submersible simply lacks the power required to make it's way back up to the surface.

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Thanks for that. :aok:

Very morbid, but is there a worse way to die than slowly running out of oxygen in a tin can at 12000 feet underwater knowing there’s no saving you?

My wife and I happened to get hooked on a documentary that was on the BBC News Channel in the mornings when we were in Thailand over Christmas and New Year about this sub.

You can watch it here (you should be able to get the other parts from that page as well) :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001d2ml

I'd recommend it

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Originally Posted by DiscoDoidge

Very morbid, but is there a worse way to die than slowly running out of oxygen in a tin can at 12000 feet underwater knowing there’s no saving you?

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It should at least be painless; you just go to sleep. An agonising death, like burning alive, would have to be worse.

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Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba

It should at least be painless; you just go to sleep. An agonising death, like burning alive, would have to be worse.

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I doubt suffocating to death is painless, tbh. Not to mention the emotional pain for the previous 72 hours.

It doesn't get a huge deal worse than this for my money

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Originally Posted by Keith_M

I posted a thread on here recently about the death of a Palestinian child, killed by Israeli soldiers that were indiscriminately firing at various targets on the off chance they may be Palestinian terrorists.

One article in the Guardian, no follow up articles into how the Israelis had lied about killing an innocent child then tried to cover it up, no coverage at all on most media sites.

I deleted the thread because not one single person posted a reply.


Deleting it was probably bit stupid, I was having a bad day, but still...

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Similar to the thread you posted about the killings in Uganda last week.

Barely discussed.

Apparently there’s obvious reasons why. I don’t know what they are though!

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Originally Posted by Lee Marvin

I doubt suffocating to death is painless, tbh. Not to mention the emotional pain for the previous 72 hours.

It doesn't get a huge deal worse than this for my money

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A doctor specialty type on the news said they would pass out way before they died.

Apparently there would be no gasping for breath or sensation like drowning.

Obviously not good news, but ‘better’ under the circumstances.

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Originally Posted by neil7908

I don't think you have anything to apologise for.

The below article lays out a number of serious issues with this vessel and journey:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...fety-of-vessel

This is no way means what is happening to those on board isn't a horrendous tragedy. But they have wilfully undertaken an enormously dangerous activity, and I can't see any greater benefit to mankind here, unlike say astronauts who put themselves in huge danger for the advancement of human knowledge. .

I'll repeat, no one should have to go through this but they have all gone into it knowing it was a very real possibility.

You can feel devastated for those involved, whilst also questioning the wider reaction and noting the above points without being a monster.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNSI7HG319k

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Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..

A doctor specialty type on the news said they would pass out way before they died.

Apparently there would be no gasping for breath or sensation like drowning.

Obviously not good news, but ‘better’ under the circumstances.

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Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. I imagine drowning would be much worse.

What a gruesome discussion.

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Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..

A doctor specialty type on the news said they would pass out way before they died.

Apparently there would be no gasping for breath or sensation like drowning.

Obviously not good news, but ‘better’ under the circumstances.

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Is that the end point. Or what about the point they know they are going to die if they aren't saved within 50 hours or whatever. It's a slow painful death. I personally think only nuthobs wouldn't feel sympathy

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Is that the end point. Or what about the point they know they are going to die if they aren't saved within 50 hours or whatever. It's a slow painful death. I personally think only nuthobs wouldn't feel sympathy

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If they were trapped, knowing they would die, the psychological trauma would be horrific. If they had many hours beforehand, I would guess that the initial panic of realising their likely fate would subside over time, then it's a matter of trying to keep each other calm. A nightmare situation. It would have been a much kinder end for the vessel to have imploded under the water pressure. Death would be instant.

From what I’ve read, the sub has a number of ways to return to the surface even with a total loss of power. The only way it couldn’t is if it is trapped on something (fishing net etc) or if it totally collapsed. I just don’t see a scenario where this sub is in one piece with people still alive inside? What would cause a loss of power, failure of the independent power source for the transponder and all the mechanical ways in which to bring this sub to the surface?


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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Is that the end point. Or what about the point they know they are going to die if they aren't saved within 50 hours or whatever. It's a slow painful death. I personally think only nuthobs wouldn't feel sympathy

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Yeah, I’m not downplaying the horrific nature of the situation at all, was just addressing that one point.