Amazon

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

That's not really fair on businesses that have high turnover, with small margins.

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Yup.. Must be a tiered system or percent of sale or flat tax per item..

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Originally Posted by IWasThere2016

The UK Government could easily address with a Sales Tax or tax on online sales - and say use it to pay rates for High St shops - however they choose not to.

Similarly, Employment Legislation could be bolstered to safeguard employees .. again not.

I'm not sure Amazon are operating outside the laws - tax or employment..

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A couple of years ago there was a French politician who suggested a tax of 1€ on every online purchase/transaction which would be used to reduce commercial rates in town centres. I thought it was a great idea but nothing came of it.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Just on the Amazon being a monopoly thing, when it comes to electrical appliances, I always use AO.com. No idea who owns them (might be Amazon[emoji23]) or what tax they pay but I always find them to be the cheapest and the service is great.
And for a local supplier of white goods, Edinburgh components on Bonnington road usually price match with online prices and their service is good. I have to buy about 5/6 washing machines a year and they provide a good service.


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AO owned by family in NW England

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

A couple of years ago there was a French politician who suggested a tax of 1€ on every online purchase/transaction which would be used to reduce commercial rates in town centres. I thought it was a great idea but nothing came of it.

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Has to happen but fear it may be too late here..

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Originally Posted by matty_f

Legal doesn’t necessarily mean ethical though.

IMHO, they should pay their way. Their owner doesn’t need billions of pounds, that money could be going to support the NHS, to fighting poverty, homelessness etc.

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I agree, but why should they have the monopoly on using the rules to their advantage. If everybody was utilizing the loopholes then you can bet your house that the government would close them in an instant.

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Originally Posted by Just_Jimmy

need something, pick up my phone, find it and buy it, usually with free next day delivery, all within 5 mins.

because I live in a city (I imagine Edinburgh will be the same?) I've even had things same day!

can't beat that without going out to a shop.

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Yup.. cba going into Bolton town centre never mind into Manc.. Traffic, parking, time, cost even safety..

I can't fault Amazon for convenience and value. Use it several times a month tbh.

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

I agree, but why should they have the monopoly on using the rules to their advantage. If everybody was utilizing the loopholes then you can bet your house that the government would close them in an instant.

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I agree. :agree:

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Originally Posted by matty_f

Legal doesn’t necessarily mean ethical though.

IMHO, they should pay their way. Their owner doesn’t need billions of pounds, that money could be going to support the NHS, to fighting poverty, homelessness etc.

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What’s paying your way though?

Focussing on one tax doesn’t tell you much.

Royal Mail for example in 2018 paid zero corp tax but in the same year generated over £1.8bn in tax receipts through other taxation (NI, Income Tax, business rates etc.)

Should we all boycott the Royal Mail based on their corp tax record (and not just their awful service [emoji2957])?

AstraZeneca is another company that rarely pays corp tax due to R&D credits. Those credits go towards paying for high end research and development and (allegedly) support thousands of high end jobs. Do we boycott the new vaccine because the company that developed it doesn’t pay a lot of Corp Tax? Or do we swipe away the credits, tax the company hard and see the jobs shift overseas?


I’m not really arguing one way or the other I suppose it’s just that it seems the discussion always falls back onto one tax amount that is maybe far from reflective of the overall economic benefit a company may provide across a number of measures.

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Originally Posted by IWasThere2016

Yup.. cba going into Bolton town centre never mind into Manc.. Traffic, parking, time, cost even safety..

I can't fault Amazon for convenience and value. Use it several times a month tbh.

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I'm South Trafford so I rarely venture into Manc city past any work commitments but even Hale and Alty high streets are peaky now. I'm not disagreeing with the moral argument but those setting the rules don't play by them so why would companies?




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Originally Posted by matty_f

Legal doesn’t necessarily mean ethical though.

IMHO, they should pay their way. Their owner doesn’t need billions of pounds, that money could be going to support the NHS, to fighting poverty, homelessness etc.

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The board would not be behaving ethically if they did not do their best to get the maximum return on the shareholders investments.
We can’t have a system that relies on companies voluntarily paying extra tax.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

The board would not be behaving ethically if they did not do their best to get the maximum return on the shareholders investments.
We can’t have a system that relies on companies voluntarily paying extra tax.


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That statement is what a massively capitalist society tells you is ethical.

Baws to the shareholders, they can still make money, just a bit less.

Tax the super wealthy massively and tax the super wealthy businesses massively.

There’s sod-all ethical about making rich people richer.

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Originally Posted by matty_f

That statement is what a massively capitalist society tells you is ethical.

Baws to the shareholders, they can still make money, just a bit less.

Tax the super wealthy massively and tax the super wealthy businesses massively.

There’s sod-all ethical about making rich people richer.

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The shareholders are often ordinary people’s pension funds. The board have a job to do which is to make money. They do that by providing goods and services that ordinary people want to buy at the right price. That’s a good thing.
If we want to tax an activity then we should tax it but expecting companies to give the exchequer money as a gift just won’t work.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

The shareholders are often ordinary people’s pension funds. The board have a job to do which is to make money. They do that by providing goods and services that ordinary people want to buy at the right price. That’s a good thing.
If we want to tax an activity then we should tax it but expecting companies to give the exchequer money as a gift just won’t work.


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Amazon turn over £1.6bn every month. They can afford to give shareholders a good return and still pay more tax.

If I sign up for an Amazon Prime membership does that get me free delivery and the movies etc on Prime Video or are they separate subscriptions?

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Originally Posted by RyeSloan

What’s paying your way though?

Focussing on one tax doesn’t tell you much.

Royal Mail for example in 2018 paid zero corp tax but in the same year generated over £1.8bn in tax receipts through other taxation (NI, Income Tax, business rates etc.)

Should we all boycott the Royal Mail based on their corp tax record (and not just their awful service [emoji2957])?

AstraZeneca is another company that rarely pays corp tax due to R&D credits. Those credits go towards paying for high end research and development and (allegedly) support thousands of high end jobs. Do we boycott the new vaccine because the company that developed it doesn’t pay a lot of Corp Tax? Or do we swipe away the credits, tax the company hard and see the jobs shift overseas?


I’m not really arguing one way or the other I suppose it’s just that it seems the discussion always falls back onto one tax amount that is maybe far from reflective of the overall economic benefit a company may provide across a number of measures.

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The companies don’t pay tax and NI though, that’s the workers, it’s horrible misguided to credit the business with that tax.

“What do you mean we don’t pay our tax? Look at how much the workers pay you! (It’s only right that the workers pay their way but why should we?)”

I have no issue with giving credit for the economic benefit, and that’s provided that benefit is created through treating workers properly (living wage, good working conditions etc) but that shouldn’t preclude companies from paying tax. Perhaps if they did that, we wouldn’t need to raise as much from the people who can least afford it.

FWIW, if it was up to me I’d also put income tax at 100% of anything over a billion pounds and shore up the loopholes.

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Originally Posted by H18 SFR

If I sign up for an Amazon Prime membership does that get me free delivery and the movies etc on Prime Video or are they separate subscriptions?

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It does give you movies etc.

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Originally Posted by matty_f

The companies don’t pay tax and NI though, that’s the workers, it’s horrible misguided to credit the business with that tax.

“What do you mean we don’t pay our tax? Look at how much the workers pay you! (It’s only right that the workers pay their way but why should we?)”

I have no issue with giving credit for the economic benefit, and that’s provided that benefit is created through treating workers properly (living wage, good working conditions etc) but that shouldn’t preclude companies from paying tax. Perhaps if they did that, we wouldn’t need to raise as much from the people who can least afford it.

FWIW, if it was up to me I’d also put income tax at 100% of anything over a billion pounds and shore up the loopholes.

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Companies do pay NI?

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Originally Posted by marinello59

It does give you movies etc.

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I am trying to sight up but it will only let me sign up as a student and I am not a student now??

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Originally Posted by matty_f

The companies don’t pay tax and NI though, that’s the workers, it’s horrible misguided to credit the business with that tax.

“What do you mean we don’t pay our tax? Look at how much the workers pay you! (It’s only right that the workers pay their way but why should we?)”

I have no issue with giving credit for the economic benefit, and that’s provided that benefit is created through treating workers properly (living wage, good working conditions etc) but that shouldn’t preclude companies from paying tax. Perhaps if they did that, we wouldn’t need to raise as much from the people who can least afford it.

FWIW, if it was up to me I’d also put income tax at 100% of anything over a billion pounds and shore up the loopholes.

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But the point is that fundamentally it’s the companies activities that are paying the workers wages...that’s still companies generating monies to pay the tax. As it is companies already pay substantial direct pay roll taxes before the worker.

As for taxing the super rich...well most won’t disagree with that but it’s rather tangential from assessing companies wider economic benefits v focussing on their corp tax contributions!

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Originally Posted by RyeSloan

But the point is that fundamentally it’s the companies activities that are paying the workers wages...that’s still companies generating monies to pay the tax. As it is companies already pay substantial direct pay roll taxes before the worker.

As for taxing the super rich...well most won’t disagree with that but it’s rather tangential from assessing companies wider economic benefits v focussing on their corp tax contributions!

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Amazon and their like need to pay the same level of tax on earnings made from the Uk as every other non tax avoidant business. No excuses, no special pleading. I’m sure if they don’t like that, they can piss off. It’s a capitalist world, other companies can fill the breach.

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

Amazon and their like need to pay the same level of tax on earnings made from the Uk as every other non tax avoidant business. No excuses, no special pleading. I’m sure if they don’t like that, they can piss off. It’s a capitalist world, other companies can fill the breach.

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We don’t want them to, otherwise we would have changed the rules to make them pay more tax.


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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

Amazon and their like need to pay the same level of tax on earnings made from the Uk as every other non tax avoidant business. No excuses, no special pleading. I’m sure if they don’t like that, they can piss off. It’s a capitalist world, other companies can fill the breach.

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Would they fill that gap, though? I'm not sure there were many alternatives in the wings when Apple negotiated its tax deal in Ireland.

I can see a situation in Sunderland, when we have left the EU completely and Nissan have moved out, where a similar deal might be negotiated. In the grand scheme of things, perhaps no bad thing.

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Originally Posted by overdrive

Companies do pay NI?

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It's deducted from your pay.

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Originally Posted by matty_f

It's deducted from your pay.

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Employers also pay their own share of NI, on top of what they pay you. 13.8%.

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Originally Posted by matty_f

It's deducted from your pay.

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Pretty sure they pay employers national insurance as well.


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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Employers also pay their own share of NI, on top of what they pay you. 13.8%.

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:aok:

One good example today of taxes paid by companies not evidenced in their Corp tax numbers is the decision by Tesco to return their business rates relief...a cool £585m.

Will be interesting to see if the other supermarkets follow suit.

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Originally Posted by RyeSloan

One good example today of taxes paid by companies not evidenced in their Corp tax numbers is the decision by Tesco to return their business rates relief...a cool £585m.

Will be interesting to see if the other supermarkets follow suit.

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A cynic might say that helps to reduce their CT Bill, but it's still a grand gesture.

Late last night, my wife mentioned that she'd been thinking about buying a book light for reading in bed.

Unbeknown to her, I looked on Amazon and ordered one for her. That was at 11.38pm.

It arrived half an hour ago!

Whatever gripes people have about Amazon or Besos, that's fantastic service.

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Originally Posted by Hibbyradge

Late last night, my wife mentioned that she'd been thinking about buying a book light for reading in bed.

Unbeknown to her, I looked on Amazon and ordered one for her. That was at 11.38pm.

It arrived half an hour ago!

Whatever gripes people have about Amazon or Besos, that's fantastic service.

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I was finding my Prime orders were taking about 48 hours recently instead of 24 hours. I assumed they had moved the goal posts and changed their delivery policy.