Another grooming gang uncovered.

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

I've not seen much vitriol. However, I think we're on the same page mostly.

I would be dismayed if it transpires that the authorities ignored it so as not to offend one group.

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I would think this is probably the case. Years ago there was a squad set up to target Asian criminal gangs in Glasgow, it was disbanded because it could be seen as racist.

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Originally Posted by Killiehibbie

I would think this is probably the case. Years ago there was a squad set up to target Asian criminal gangs in Glasgow, it was disbanded because it could be seen as racist.

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Seen as racist or actually racist?

Is there a need for a squad to target Asian criminal gangs in addition to a squad who investigate criminal gangs, some of whom are Asian?

I know there are people on here who will long for the days when you could call a spade a spade etc but whilst modern policing may be imperfect and have its flaws, I wouldn’t swap them for the Hillsborough police or the “Stephen Lawrence era” institutionally racist metropolitan police.

Black people. Football fans. Men from pakistan. Scots.

Be careful what you wish for.

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Originally Posted by Smartie

Seen as racist or actually racist?

Is there a need for a squad to target Asian criminal gangs in addition to a squad who investigate criminal gangs, some of whom are Asian?

I know there are people on here who will long for the days when you could call a spade a spade etc but whilst modern policing may be imperfect and have its flaws, I wouldn’t swap them for the Hillsborough police or the “Stephen Lawrence era” institutionally racist metropolitan police.

Black people. Football fans. Men from pakistan. Scots.

Be careful what you wish for.

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Is using officers of Asian origin to target criminals within the community they grew up in racist or good policing? i believe they got victims of protection and extortion to be more cooperative.

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Originally Posted by Killiehibbie

I would think this is probably the case. Years ago there was a squad set up to target Asian criminal gangs in Glasgow, it was disbanded because it could be seen as racist.

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I have heard similar stories, but have no proof they are true, regarding prostitution in Govanhill.

I suppose similar tales were doing the rounds in the likes of Doncaster and Rochdale. A public enquiry would go a long way towards telling us what the reasons were that complaints by alleged victims were ignored.

A broad spectrum of people are interested in the result. It would be ludicrous if some of the parties asking the questions were called racist, as they represent communities that are suffering as a result of all this attention.

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

You've still not explained why you would appear to find this particular method of child sex abuse worse than the much more prevalent kind. Why does the fact that it's mainly Pakistani men seem to bother you more than when dads, uncles, cousins and other men close to the victims is much more wide spread? We've had plenty of examples in the past where groups of white men have abused and passed around children amongst themselves, the Catholic Church, football clubs, scout groups, orphanages, the Westminster paedophile ring and countless other groups that I can remember off the top of my head and not to mention many thousand cases of individual predators, what makes these groups more distasteful to you than the others? The only difference I see is their race and method, the crimes themselves are the same.

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I’m sorry but that is totally missing the point. No one is saying that one form of child abuse is worse than another. This thread as started after another Muslim gang has been exposed. I’m fed up up with trying to be politically correct in these cases. Theses a minority of Muslim men who prey on young girls in order to either use them as sex slaves or put them out for prostitution. This in itself is horrendous, but when you add in the fact that none of these girls being exploited are Muslim leads to the inevitable conclusion that it’s racially motivated. Some people might be afraid to say it, but I’ve got broad shoulders.

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Originally Posted by lord bunberry

This in itself is horrendous, but when you add in the fact that none of these girls being exploited are Muslim leads to the inevitable conclusion that it’s racially motivated.

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Not necessarily. It might be that young white girls are simply more vulnerable than young Muslim girls. There might be cultural reasons for that.

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Originally Posted by lord bunberry

I’m sorry but that is totally missing the point. No one is saying that one form of child abuse is worse than another. This thread as started after another Muslim gang has been exposed. I’m fed up up with trying to be politically correct in these cases. Theses a minority of Muslim men who prey on young girls in order to either use them as sex slaves or put them out for prostitution. This in itself is horrendous, but when you add in the fact that none of these girls being exploited are Muslim leads to the inevitable conclusion that it’s racially motivated. Some people might be afraid to say it, but I’ve got broad shoulders.

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Young vulnerable girls (and boys) have always been in danger of falling into the hands of human traffickers, perverts and pimps. There's literature going back centuries that tell the tales of unscrupulous individuals and gangs taking advantage of vulnerable kids. These gangs haven't invented it, they're just one group of *******s in a long history of *******s abusing children.

The vast majority of easy pickings for these monsters will be white and from broken or disadvantaged homes. I can't get my head around why you think it's more disgusting because Pakistani men are this time the perpetrators. Child abuse in the church, communities, orphanages, amongst celebrities, politicians and numerous other groups have previously been swept under the carpet, why the extra outrage at this group?

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Originally Posted by Andy Bee

You've never asked me to explain why I seemingly "find this particular method of child sex abuse worse than the much more prevalent kind" is there a much more prevalent kind? TBH child abuse is abhorrent, are you suggesting otherwise to suit your agenda?

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Still waiting to hear what my agenda is?

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

Still waiting to hear what my agenda is?

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Whenever there's a thread about terrorists or grooming gangs your all over it calling folk racist.

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Originally Posted by makaveli1875

Whenever there's a thread about terrorists or grooming gangs your all over it calling folk racist.

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I think you're the only person on here that I've called racist.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...90106.html?amp

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I'm amazed that no one commented on the above post, must have been the first one that had facts and not just some made up rubbish about foreigners.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

I'm amazed that no one commented on the above post, must have been the first one that had facts and not just some made up rubbish about foreigners.

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It's a good article, the idea that rape and child abuse in the UK is a cultural phenomenon is simply ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

Still waiting to hear what my agenda is?

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To turn this thread into a is he/isn't he racist competition instead of addressing my initial question. "Has political correctness went that far that people and more to the point Police and Social Services are actually that scared to confront something like this that they'd rather sweep it under the carpet?"


You keep rolling out this line of why some people here find this type of abuse "more disgusting", I can guarantee that nobody here finds this type of abuse "more disgusting" than any other abuse and you know it so stop saying it.

This is a fairly new phenomenon, more and more of these gangs and victims are coming to light and it's current, it's happening right now in a lot of UK cities and towns, that's why it's being discussed, not because you've stumbled onto some kind of secret KKK sleeper cell.

36 of the 39 territorial Police forces in England have or are in the process of investigating a grooming gang. Two of those forces are investigating more than one gang at the moment. Eighteen of those forces have investigated a grooming gang case or cases where all of or most of the perpetrators are "Asian", three forces have brought a case to trial that the perps were all white and two where the perps were black. In ten forces FactCheck couldn't establish the ethnicity of the accused and in half of those it was because the case was still to be brought to trial.



To give some background to my initial question..Maggie Oliver a Det Const in Greater Manchester Police was chosen to lead Operation Augusta in 2004, started because of the death of a 15yr old girl who overdosed on heroin injected by a 50yr old man. She identified 16 victims, gained their trust and then went on to identify 97 suspects, predominantly of Pakistani Muslim descent. She then took 3 months compassionate leave to care for her husband and upon her return the investigation had been closed down. Lack of finances was the official line but it's thought it was also to do with fear of racial tension, only three convictions were established and the investigation was buried. That's the reason for my initial OP, when I said a new grooming gang had been uncovered it was more that Andy Burnham initiated an enquiry and the findings uncovered the cases from back in 2004 and operation Augusta. There's going to be some horrific stories coming from the upcoming investigation and it could of all been stopped 16 years ago.

A similar story in Rochdale. Sara Rowbotham was a sexual health worker, now an MP and suspected abuse was happening in girls from the age of 13yr old who attended her clinic. She reported her suspicions to child services and police and was fobbed off for years. Her and her team collected names, addresses, even reg numbers for cars for 100's of suspects and kept reporting them without any of the services taking it further because of what she thought was fear of being labelled racist. Initially a case was opened, one of the victims came forward and made a statement but the case was dropped because the CPS doubted the witnesses credibility. Years later Maggie Oliver was involved in re-opening the case where she mentions that it was almost a carbon copy of what was happening in Manchester. She brought some of the perps to justice but mentions the fact that she had only scratched the surface, that's bolstered by the fact when a girl who was 13yr's old at the time and had serious learning difficulties was finally interviewed 6 years later she mentions in her testimony that she was taken to flats, dropped off, taken in, then confronted by a circle of around 50 men who "passed her around like a ball", only a gang of 9 were convicted.

The final nail in the coffin for that gang was the witness who initially was deemed not credible years previously, cross examined by 9 different defence barristers and she nailed them.

Maggie Oliver then resigned from the force because of the way some witnesses were treated and to be able to talk openly about it.

Nafir Afzal's first job on becoming the chief crown Prosecutor was to reopen the Rochdale case stating "white professionals' over-sensitivity to political correctness and fear of appearing racist may well have contributed to justice being stalled"


Just to add and on some reflection, on posting my original post I was reluctant to label these gangs Asian because I'm not comfortable generalising like that. I'm also not comfortable naming them as Muslims because I'm no expert in the Quran but I know for a fact that every practising Muslim who is devoted to their religion would not dream of committing these crimes and are as appalled, probably more than I am, they simply wouldn't identify these animals as being true Muslims and I'm not actually comfortable singling them out as predominantly Pakistani or Pakistani heritage either. Nobody has a problem naming catholic priests and the way some of them behaved for example so what's the difference?

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Originally Posted by Andy Bee

To turn this thread into a is he/isn't he racist competition instead of addressing my initial question. "Has political correctness went that far that people and more to the point Police and Social Services are actually that scared to confront something like this that they'd rather sweep it under the carpet?"


You keep rolling out this line of why some people here find this type of abuse "more disgusting", I can guarantee that nobody here finds this type of abuse "more disgusting" than any other abuse and you know it so stop saying it.

This is a fairly new phenomenon, more and more of these gangs and victims are coming to light and it's current, it's happening right now in a lot of UK cities and towns, that's why it's being discussed, not because you've stumbled onto some kind of secret KKK sleeper cell.

36 of the 39 territorial Police forces in England have or are in the process of investigating a grooming gang. Two of those forces are investigating more than one gang at the moment. Eighteen of those forces have investigated a grooming gang case or cases where all of or most of the perpetrators are "Asian", three forces have brought a case to trial that the perps were all white and two where the perps were black. In ten forces FactCheck couldn't establish the ethnicity of the accused and in half of those it was because the case was still to be brought to trial.



To give some background to my initial question..Maggie Oliver a Det Const in Greater Manchester Police was chosen to lead Operation Augusta in 2004, started because of the death of a 15yr old girl who overdosed on heroin injected by a 50yr old man. She identified 16 victims, gained their trust and then went on to identify 97 suspects, predominantly of Pakistani Muslim descent. She then took 3 months compassionate leave to care for her husband and upon her return the investigation had been closed down. Lack of finances was the official line but it's thought it was also to do with fear of racial tension, only three convictions were established and the investigation was buried. That's the reason for my initial OP, when I said a new grooming gang had been uncovered it was more that Andy Burnham initiated an enquiry and the findings uncovered the cases from back in 2004 and operation Augusta. There's going to be some horrific stories coming from the upcoming investigation and it could of all been stopped 16 years ago.

A similar story in Rochdale. Sara Rowbotham was a sexual health worker, now an MP and suspected abuse was happening in girls from the age of 13yr old who attended her clinic. She reported her suspicions to child services and police and was fobbed off for years. Her and her team collected names, addresses, even reg numbers for cars for 100's of suspects and kept reporting them without any of the services taking it further because of what she thought was fear of being labelled racist. Initially a case was opened, one of the victims came forward and made a statement but the case was dropped because the CPS doubted the witnesses credibility. Years later Maggie Oliver was involved in re-opening the case where she mentions that it was almost a carbon copy of what was happening in Manchester. She brought some of the perps to justice but mentions the fact that she had only scratched the surface, that's bolstered by the fact when a girl who was 13yr's old at the time and had serious learning difficulties was finally interviewed 6 years later she mentions in her testimony that she was taken to flats, dropped off, taken in, then confronted by a circle of around 50 men who "passed her around like a ball", only a gang of 9 were convicted.

The final nail in the coffin for that gang was the witness who initially was deemed not credible years previously, cross examined by 9 different defence barristers and she nailed them.

Maggie Oliver then resigned from the force because of the way some witnesses were treated and to be able to talk openly about it.

Nafir Afzal's first job on becoming the chief crown Prosecutor was to reopen the Rochdale case stating "white professionals' over-sensitivity to political correctness and fear of appearing racist may well have contributed to justice being stalled"


Just to add and on some reflection, on posting my original post I was reluctant to label these gangs Asian because I'm not comfortable generalising like that. I'm also not comfortable naming them as Muslims because I'm no expert in the Quran but I know for a fact that every practising Muslim who is devoted to their religion would not dream of committing these crimes and are as appalled, probably more than I am, they simply wouldn't identify these animals as being true Muslims and I'm not actually comfortable singling them out as predominantly Pakistani or Pakistani heritage either. Nobody has a problem naming catholic priests and the way some of them behaved for example so what's the difference?

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I heard stories of similar things happening 40 years ago in Edinburgh. I'm sure a few of us heard rumours of schoolgirls being paid for sex with a pair of jeans then taken to flats to be passed around groups of men.

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Originally Posted by Killiehibbie

I heard stories of similar things happening 40 years ago in Edinburgh. I'm sure a few of us heard rumours of schoolgirls being paid for sex with a pair of jeans then taken to flats to be passed around groups of men.

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There were all kinds of things going on in the 80s that were pretty well known. There were convictions, even without the internet the accusations were pretty damning.

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Originally Posted by Andy Bee

To turn this thread into a is he/isn't he racist competition instead of addressing my initial question. "Has political correctness went that far that people and more to the point Police and Social Services are actually that scared to confront something like this that they'd rather sweep it under the carpet?"


You keep rolling out this line of why some people here find this type of abuse "more disgusting", I can guarantee that nobody here finds this type of abuse "more disgusting" than any other abuse and you know it so stop saying it.

This is a fairly new phenomenon, more and more of these gangs and victims are coming to light and it's current, it's happening right now in a lot of UK cities and towns, that's why it's being discussed, not because you've stumbled onto some kind of secret KKK sleeper cell.

36 of the 39 territorial Police forces in England have or are in the process of investigating a grooming gang. Two of those forces are investigating more than one gang at the moment. Eighteen of those forces have investigated a grooming gang case or cases where all of or most of the perpetrators are "Asian", three forces have brought a case to trial that the perps were all white and two where the perps were black. In ten forces FactCheck couldn't establish the ethnicity of the accused and in half of those it was because the case was still to be brought to trial.



To give some background to my initial question..Maggie Oliver a Det Const in Greater Manchester Police was chosen to lead Operation Augusta in 2004, started because of the death of a 15yr old girl who overdosed on heroin injected by a 50yr old man. She identified 16 victims, gained their trust and then went on to identify 97 suspects, predominantly of Pakistani Muslim descent. She then took 3 months compassionate leave to care for her husband and upon her return the investigation had been closed down. Lack of finances was the official line but it's thought it was also to do with fear of racial tension, only three convictions were established and the investigation was buried. That's the reason for my initial OP, when I said a new grooming gang had been uncovered it was more that Andy Burnham initiated an enquiry and the findings uncovered the cases from back in 2004 and operation Augusta. There's going to be some horrific stories coming from the upcoming investigation and it could of all been stopped 16 years ago.

A similar story in Rochdale. Sara Rowbotham was a sexual health worker, now an MP and suspected abuse was happening in girls from the age of 13yr old who attended her clinic. She reported her suspicions to child services and police and was fobbed off for years. Her and her team collected names, addresses, even reg numbers for cars for 100's of suspects and kept reporting them without any of the services taking it further because of what she thought was fear of being labelled racist. Initially a case was opened, one of the victims came forward and made a statement but the case was dropped because the CPS doubted the witnesses credibility. Years later Maggie Oliver was involved in re-opening the case where she mentions that it was almost a carbon copy of what was happening in Manchester. She brought some of the perps to justice but mentions the fact that she had only scratched the surface, that's bolstered by the fact when a girl who was 13yr's old at the time and had serious learning difficulties was finally interviewed 6 years later she mentions in her testimony that she was taken to flats, dropped off, taken in, then confronted by a circle of around 50 men who "passed her around like a ball", only a gang of 9 were convicted.

The final nail in the coffin for that gang was the witness who initially was deemed not credible years previously, cross examined by 9 different defence barristers and she nailed them.

Maggie Oliver then resigned from the force because of the way some witnesses were treated and to be able to talk openly about it.

Nafir Afzal's first job on becoming the chief crown Prosecutor was to reopen the Rochdale case stating "white professionals' over-sensitivity to political correctness and fear of appearing racist may well have contributed to justice being stalled"


Just to add and on some reflection, on posting my original post I was reluctant to label these gangs Asian because I'm not comfortable generalising like that. I'm also not comfortable naming them as Muslims because I'm no expert in the Quran but I know for a fact that every practising Muslim who is devoted to their religion would not dream of committing these crimes and are as appalled, probably more than I am, they simply wouldn't identify these animals as being true Muslims and I'm not actually comfortable singling them out as predominantly Pakistani or Pakistani heritage either. Nobody has a problem naming catholic priests and the way some of them behaved for example so what's the difference?

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Nobody would dispute that the failure to properly investigate the cases you mention was scandalous and seems to have been down to 3 things:

- because they concentrated on crimes in which they had targets to meet and child sexual exploitation wasn't one of those
- because they feared exacerbating existing racial tensions between communities
- because of over sensitivity due to their own history of "institutional racism", the Lawrence case etc.

However, those cases were over a decade ago. Is there a serious concern/do you have evidence that the lessons weren't learned and the same failings are continuing? If so, then there is some basis for your initial question, although I would argue that none of the 3 factors can be described as "political correctness", gone mad or otherwise.

Otoh, if investigations into such cases are now being carried out with the resources and thoroughness they should be, then what are you trying to achieve?

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Originally Posted by Andy Bee

To turn this thread into a is he/isn't he racist competition instead of addressing my initial question. "Has political correctness went that far that people and more to the point Police and Social Services are actually that scared to confront something like this that they'd rather sweep it under the carpet?"


You keep rolling out this line of why some people here find this type of abuse "more disgusting", I can guarantee that nobody here finds this type of abuse "more disgusting" than any other abuse and you know it so stop saying it.

This is a fairly new phenomenon, more and more of these gangs and victims are coming to light and it's current, it's happening right now in a lot of UK cities and towns, that's why it's being discussed, not because you've stumbled onto some kind of secret KKK sleeper cell.

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Or I simply call out racism when I see it. FWIW I've not called anyone a racist on this thread and as far as I can remember have only ever done so once in all the years I've been on here, instead I've merely pointed out that claiming child abuse is culturally motivated or somehow acceptable in Pakistani culture then that is racist.

As has already been pointed out by other posters, there were more factors involved in why these particular cases might not have been confronted immediately and all I can add to that is there was also an element of victim blaming involved. Many of these girls were already viewed by the police as trouble and from trouble and were seen to be the architects of their own misery and their claims fell on deaf ears because of this.

I stand by what I said about other child abuse rings, they are equally monstrous but if you direct all your disgust at these particular rings and say it's related to the Pakistani culture then you shouldn't be too surprised if that is perceived by some to be racist.

This is anything but a new phenomenon, gangs like this have been abusing children and young adults since time began. If as you claim it is cultural then it's a part of every culture that has ever existed including our own.

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Originally Posted by Killiehibbie

I heard stories of similar things happening 40 years ago in Edinburgh. I'm sure a few of us heard rumours of schoolgirls being paid for sex with a pair of jeans then taken to flats to be passed around groups of men.

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There are witnesses being protected (changed identities/moved out of the City) due to an investigation into an abuse ring which was based in Edinburgh city centre right now. The investigation has been going on for a few years and I've no idea why such secrecy surrounds it or why the witnesses require protection. A woman who was a victim as a girl was a friend of my wife and has been moved out, she said her farewells to my wife a while ago but there has been nothing in the papers for while.

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Originally Posted by Kato

There are witnesses being protected (changed identities/moved out of the City) due to an investigation into an abuse ring which was based in Edinburgh city centre right now. The investigation has been going on for a few years and I've no idea why such secrecy surrounds it or why the witnesses require protection. A woman who was a victim as a girl was a friend of my wife and has been moved out, she said her farewells to my wife a while ago but there has been nothing in the papers for while.

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Have a wee read up on "Operation Planet". Edinburgh has history with this kind of thing. Sexual abuse goes right to the top of our society .

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

Have a wee read up on "Operation Planet". Edinburgh has history with this kind of thing. Sexual abuse goes right to the top of our society .

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One of the best things I ever saw at the festival was a play called "One of Oor Ain", it was an insight into how paedophile rings in central Scotland operated, and highlighted that for the lower level operators to stay out of jail, they have to procure for those higher up, such as judges.

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

One of the best things I ever saw at the festival was a play called "One of Oor Ain", it was an insight into how paedophile rings in central Scotland operated, and highlighted that for the lower level operators to stay out of jail, they have to procure for those higher up, such as judges.

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A story I heard was one of the guys selling porn at Ingliston was charged and remanded for 7 days, the next week he was given bail and all charges later dropped once his lawyer was given his mailing list.

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Originally Posted by Killiehibbie

A story I heard was one of the guys selling porn at Ingliston was charged and remanded for 7 days, the next week he was given bail and all charges later dropped once his lawyer was given his mailing list.

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The play is a one woman show about her father. She is certain that he abducted and murdered a child in Coatbridge.

At the end she was careful to stress that he was on bail for other child offences, and that she was certain this was because he had friends in the justice system.

I see yet another 'Grooming gang' has been convicted. This time the predominantly Pakistani men are from Latvia and groomed a girl in Glasgow.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-west-51498165

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

I see yet another 'Grooming gang' has been convicted. This time the predominantly Pakistani men are from Latvia and groomed a girl in Glasgow.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-west-51498165

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What's your point?

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

I see yet another 'Grooming gang' has been convicted. This time the predominantly Pakistani men are from Latvia and groomed a girl in Glasgow.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-west-51498165

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Come over here, interfering with our stereotypes.

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Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Come over here, interfering with our stereotypes.

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Yes, but this gang was convicted, whereas there's more than a hint that the actions of Pakistani gangs have been covered up, or ignored because of "resourcing issues."

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

Yes, but this gang was convicted, whereas there's more than a hint that the actions of Pakistani gangs have been covered up, or ignored because of "resourcing issues."

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It's funny how many reports appear in the media of CSE groups being convicted, of all nationalities and backgrounds, that suggests it is no longer covered up. And it's not funny how many people seem to think people of one particular background are worse than others, and get away with it because of some PCs being PC.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

It's funny how many reports appear in the media of CSE groups being convicted, of all nationalities and backgrounds, that suggests it is no longer covered up. And it's not funny how many people seem to think people of one particular background are worse than others, and get away with it because of some PCs being PC.

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Right, I don't think many people on this thread fit that bill. It they do, they aren't the only people making judgements on others.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

It's funny how many reports appear in the media of CSE groups being convicted, of all nationalities and backgrounds, that suggests it is no longer covered up. And it's not funny how many people seem to think people of one particular background are worse than others, and get away with it because of some PCs being PC.

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It's incredible that with around 50 000 cases of sexual abuse on children per annum in England and Wales alone, that so much attention is concentrated on those cases where the perpetrators are of different racial profile to the majority of child abusers. All it achieves is to deflect from the real problem and play into the hands of political populism.

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

It's incredible that with around 50 000 cases of sexual abuse on children per annum in England and Wales alone, that so much attention is concentrated on those cases where the perpetrators are of different racial profile to the majority of child abusers. All it achieves is to deflect from the real problem and play into the hands of political populism.

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The attention is on the cover up. That is the real problem. If there is a racial link to the abuse bring covered up then it has to be questioned.

Was there a fear of investigating and prosecuting certain gangs because of their race? It's something that has been repeated over and again on this thread.