question for anyone planning on voting labour or tory in the election

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Originally Posted by corrie greens

That's fine, I can wait......This is got be the Holy Ground at it's best, I mean really....Posters suggesting that the SNP aren't racist, i've heard it all now! Priceless!

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There are fringe nationalist groups that are racist, but the mainstream is not and includes Scots of various colours and a number of non-Scots who have come to live in our country and believe it should be independent - my English brother-in-law is one who has not encountered the racism you allege. If you believe the SNP is racist please back this up with evidence from party policy. (A few quotes from lunatic extremists will not do.)

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Originally Posted by ballengeich

There are fringe nationalist groups that are racist, but the mainstream is not and includes Scots of various colours and a number of non-Scots who have come to live in our country and believe it should be independent - my English brother-in-law is one who has not encountered the racism you allege. If you believe the SNP is racist please back this up with evidence from party policy. (A few quotes from lunatic extremists will not do.)

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Thankyou for confirming that, it seems like hating the English is somehow an acceptable form of racism

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

OK, my position is that when people explain their position on independence from a solely economic position, it rings hollow because there are too many unknowns to know what the impact of independence would be on Scotlands fiscal or macroeconomic position. Debate it on the basis of your gut feeling. allmodcons makes a good job of it in the post above; he feels scottish core values chime more closely with his values than those of england, hence he supports independence. ( as it happens, you could make an argument for typical scottish virtues of conservatism and prudence, and Adam Smiths heritage chiming closely with traditional Tory values as well).

If you like the Union, say why you like it.

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It's not so much that I like the union per se. It's more that it's the way things are, it's working fine for Scotland (in my opinion) and without some sort of convincing argument for why we should separate, I don't see why.

If the nationalists want independence, they're going to have to convince the nation of the merits.

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Originally Posted by Beefster

It's not so much that I like the union per se. It's more that it's the way things are, it's working fine for Scotland (in my opinion) and without some sort of convincing argument for why we should separate, I don't see why.

If the nationalists want independence, they're going to have to convince the nation of the merits.

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The fat Jambo tried that with his "arc of prosperity" and we all know what happened to that.

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Originally Posted by corrie greens

Thankyou for confirming that, it seems like hating the English is somehow an acceptable form of racism

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I didn't confirm it and do not accept any kind of racism. I was pointing out to you that the SNP should not be judged by the actions of some racist lunatics who are not its representatives. I challenged you to show any racism in SNP policy and you have not done so.

'Ask The Chancellors' just started on Channel 4.

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Originally Posted by Betty Boop

'Ask The Chancellors' just started on Channel 4.

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I just can't take Darling seriously, every time I hear his name Blackadder goes Forth springs to mind.

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Originally Posted by marinello59

I just can't take Darling seriously, every time I hear his name Blackadder goes Forth springs to mind.

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He dyes his eyebrows. Theres just something inherently creepy about that. Cable has the best policies but unfortunately wont be in Government.

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Originally Posted by lucky

SNP left of center, that's a laugh. Check their voting record at westminster. They have voted with the Tories 66% of the time with Wee Eck even higher.
Scotland is a more left wing in nature than England but that has never been the SNPs views. The Nats are a broad church with many different political views but they all come together under the independence argument. But left of center never

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I'd argue that the SNP are left of centre. Look at the policies they have implemented/tried to implement since coming to power:

-Local Income Tax based on ability to pay
-Abolition of graduate endownment making University education free in Scotland
-Abolition of prescription charges
-Protection of localised health services
-More free nursery places for 3 and 4 year olds
-Scrapping of unfair bridge tolls
-Help to small businesses

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Originally Posted by corrie greens

The fat Jambo tried that with his "arc of prosperity" and we all know what happened to that.

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Salmond has scored a spectacular own goal......

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7082116.ece

Has barely sat in Westminster for years and will continue to be an MSP and First Minister, yet will accept in excess of £60,000 for 'retiring' as an MP.

Inexcusable.

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Originally Posted by Beefster

Salmond has scored a spectacular own goal......

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7082116.ece

Has barely sat in Westminster for years and will continue to be an MSP and First Minister, yet will accept in excess of £60,000 for 'retiring' as an MP.

Inexcusable.

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Take off the blinkers and get real Beefster.

This is just the usual guff from the Unionist Times.

This is a guy who donates ALL of his MSP salary to a charitable trust and has already stated that a large portion of the Westminster £60,000 will go to the same trust.

Name one other MP/MSP who does this ?

If you want 'inexcusable' greed and corruption try the Tories/Labour at Wesminster. I seem to recall 1 or 2 or them are so corrupt they're facing charges.

Lest we forget. The 20th anniversary of the Poll Tax Riots.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8589913.stm

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Originally Posted by allmodcons

Take off the blinkers and get real Beefster.

This is just the usual guff from the Unionist Times.

This is a guy who donates ALL of his MSP salary to a charitable trust and has already stated that a large portion of the Westminster £60,000 will go to the same trust.

Name one other MP/MSP who does this ?

If you want 'inexcusable' greed and corruption try the Tories/Labour at Wesminster. I seem to recall 1 or 2 or them are so corrupt they're facing charges.

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I can see corruption/greed, irrespective of party politics. I won't defend any politician guilty of it.

As nice as it is that SOME of the money will go to charity, Salmond isn't giving the money to charity, we are. It's easy to give £18k to charity at the tax-payers expense every year when you're pulling in 3 salaries from the taxpayer. Do you think he'll continue that arrangement when one of the salaries disappears in May?

Seems that at least one SNP supporter agrees with me....

http://www.snptacticalvoting.com/201...ink-again.html

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Originally Posted by Beefster

I can see corruption/greed, irrespective of party politics. I won't defend any politician guilty of it.

As nice as it is that SOME of the money will go to charity, Salmond isn't giving the money to charity, we are. It's easy to give £18k to charity at the tax-payers expense every year when you're pulling in 3 salaries from the taxpayer. Do you think he'll continue that arrangement when one of the salaries disappears in May?

Seems that at least one SNP supporter agrees with me....

http://www.snptacticalvoting.com/201...ink-again.html

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Can you answer my original question?

Name one other politician who's donated his MSP salary to a charitable trust whilst still claiming an MP's wage.

Did Donald Dewar do it?

Did Jim Wallace do it?

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Originally Posted by allmodcons

Can you answer my original question?

Name one other politician who's donated his MSP salary to a charitable trust whilst still claiming an MP's wage.

Did Donald Dewar do it?

Did Jim Wallace do it?

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I've no idea. They probably took the resettlement allowance too. Still doesn't make it acceptable.

I read earlier he was claiming £800 a month in food from the Houses of Commons (all without the need for receipts obviously) while barely attending that Parliament. He's no better than the rest of them by any stretch of the imagination.

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Originally Posted by Betty Boop

Lest we forget. The 20th anniversary of the Poll Tax Riots.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8589913.stm

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That'd never happen under Labour.


They'd tap your e-mails and arrest you on the way to the demo.

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Originally Posted by allmodcons

Take off the blinkers and get real Beefster.

This is just the usual guff from the Unionist Times.

This is a guy who donates ALL of his MSP salary to a charitable trust and has already stated that a large portion of the Westminster £60,000 will go to the same trust.
Name one other MP/MSP who does this ?

If you want 'inexcusable' greed and corruption try the Tories/Labour at Wesminster. I seem to recall 1 or 2 or them are so corrupt they're facing charges.

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So he is better because he donates our money to a charitable trust of his choosing? Why take the 60k in the first place? And what does a 'large portion actually mean? 50K - 40K- 30K - 20K ???? It still stinks.
Yes, we have Labour and Tory MP's with their noses in the trough. Two wrongs don't make a right, Salmond should have made sure he was whiter than white on this.

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Originally Posted by marinello59

So he is better because he donates our money to a charitable trust of his choosing? Why take the 60k in the first place? And what does a 'large portion actually mean? 50K - 40K- 30K - 20K ???? It still stinks.
Yes, we have Labour and Tory MP's with their noses in the trough. Two wrongs don't make a right, Salmond should have made sure he was whiter than white on this.

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:agree: The Mary Salmond Trust.

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Originally Posted by Betty Boop

:agree: The Mary Salmond Trust.

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If you are trying to make a connection to his wife, well that didnae work!!

Her name is not Mary!!:greengrin

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Originally Posted by ancienthibby

If you are trying to make a connection to his wife, well that didnae work!!

Her name is not Mary!!:greengrin

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Correct , it's his deceased Mother.
And the money is for youth projects based in his own constituency area. Which is good for his local popularity.

Chris Grayling shadow Home Secretary, thinks it is acceptable for Band B owners and hoteliers to turn away gay couples. Another own goal from the Tories! :bye:

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Originally Posted by Betty Boop

Chris Grayling shadow Home Secretary, thinks it is acceptable for Band B owners and hoteliers to turn away gay couples. Another own goal from the Tories! :bye:

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I'm not defending what he actually said but he said it wasn't acceptable for hoteliers to do it.

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Originally Posted by steakbake

That old Labour party chestnut.

So the SNP brought down Callahan and I suppose it was their fault that Labour got beaten at the General Election? Why was there a no confidence vote in the first place? Because Labour cheated and gerrymandered the home rule referendum, by losing their nerve. 40% was the figure which brought down Labour. There has never been a Labour government elected by a full 40% of the british electorate, yet they applied those rules to the referendum for the scottish assembly. Treachery repaid, I think I would see it as. I also remember that the Liberals pulled out of the coalition with Labour the year before. So are the Liberals not also to "blame" for Thatcher?

Losing the election in 79 was nothing at all to do with the fact that Labour had run out of ideas, had pissed the country's money up the wall and fallen out with the unions that normally support them to such a point that they were holding the government to ransome and the winter of discontent? No.. of course it was the SNP who delivered Thatcher.

Just like Labour now, they'll blame anything on everyone else (global financial crisis, anyone) apart from themselves.

The folklore that some people live with... :rolleyes:

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Say what you like, the SNP MPs voted down the Labour government in 1979 and Thatcher then won the election. You'll never live it down.

How's that local income tax coming along by the way? No?

How about the teachers and class sizes then? No?

Life's a wee bit harder when you can't just make it up as you go along isn't it?

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Originally Posted by One Day Soon

Say what you like, the SNP MPs voted down the Labour government in 1979 and Thatcher then won the election. You'll never live it down.

How's that local income tax coming along by the way? No?

The Scottish Government has been seeking support for the local income tax from the Liberal Democrats, who want councils to be able to set rates.

The proposals - opposed by Labour and the Tories - would see the tax rate applied to income falling under the basic and higher rates of UK income tax.

maybe if the labour MSP's didnt try and block every single thing the SNP try to do for this country things might actually happen !!! sheer pettiness, still, maybe when/if the roles are reversed and the SNP in turn try to block every proposal from a labour government that would be beneficial for scottish people, you can save yer sniping for the minority labour government instead yes ?

How about the teachers and class sizes then? No?

Life's a wee bit harder when you can't just make it up as you go along isn't it?

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try google for your answer instead of bashing the nats http://news.stv.tv/scotland/166107-s...imary-schools/

Cutting class sizes in primary schools and providing free school meals in deprived areas are among the targets agreed on by councils and Government ministers today.

The new deal between the Government and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities (COSLA) will see at least 20% of primary 1-3 pupils in classes of 18 or less by the start of the new school year in August.

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Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875

try google for your answer instead of bashing the nats http://news.stv.tv/scotland/166107-s...imary-schools/

Cutting class sizes in primary schools and providing free school meals in deprived areas are among the targets agreed on by councils and Government ministers today.

The new deal between the Government and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities (COSLA) will see at least 20% of primary 1-3 pupils in classes of 18 or less by the start of the new school year in August.

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1. I see that you accept the historical truth of the SNP MPs opening the door for Thatcher.

2. In May of next year the Scottish Parliament elections will take place. Not only will the SNP not have delivered on their promise of a local income tax to replace the Council Tax, they won't even have put a proposal for a local income tax before parliament during the four years they will have been in charge.

3. Teachers and class sizes - google is a wonderful thing isn't it? Unfortunately it can't deliver government policy for you otherwise maybe we wouldn't now have less teachers under the SNP rather than more: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5970256.ece

And ooh what an amazing achievment on class sizes. What it means is that just nine months before the elections the SNP will have 80% of primary 1 to 3 schoolchildren in class sizes greater than 18 when their election promise was that all class sizes in that age group would be under 18. Four years to fail on a basic promise.

Like I said life's harder when you can't just make it up as you go along. And you know what the really pesky problem is? It is that someone like me pointing out the truth on a message board is the least of it. People notice this stuff. You should hear what ordinary punters have to say on our school board about the broken promise on class sizes and the lack of money to pay for the extension and rebuilding. No amount of spin is going to make them think black is white.

Mind you one year of Tory government by that stage will probably provide enough defensive cover for everyone else. They clearly have absolutely no clue what they are going to do about most things and the one area where they are relatively clear - cutting public spending in year one - is virtually guaranteed to put us back into recession. Christ, we're going to have a Chancellor who believes it would have been a good idea to let one of the big banks go to the wall during the banking crisis. Economic illiteracy doesn't even begin to cover it.

The SNP government is a minority government that has had little or no support from the other major parties during their tenure. Labour seem only to be concerned with petty point scoring and things like the farce that was the Glasgow airport rail link. Telling people that the SNP were anti galsgow is a cheap way to try to win votes. When asked how they would actually finance things like this they had no answer. Labour in Scotland is a ya boo sucks brigade, they want to throw mud about at the government but actually have no answers themselves.
It would have been better for the people of Scotland if they had accepted the fact that they had been beaten in the polls and worked with the government rather than taking the huff and acting like spoilt schoolkids.
They need to face up to the fact that people in Scotland will no longer vote for them just because they always have, they need to have better policies, better people and a better track record of governing. At the moment they have none of these.

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Originally Posted by weecounty hibby

The SNP government is a minority government that has had little or no support from the other major parties during their tenure. Labour seem only to be concerned with petty point scoring and things like the farce that was the Glasgow airport rail link. Telling people that the SNP were anti galsgow is a cheap way to try to win votes. When asked how they would actually finance things like this they had no answer. Labour in Scotland is a ya boo sucks brigade, they want to throw mud about at the government but actually have no answers themselves.
It would have been better for the people of Scotland if they had accepted the fact that they had been beaten in the polls and worked with the government rather than taking the huff and acting like spoilt schoolkids.
They need to face up to the fact that people in Scotland will no longer vote for them just because they always have, they need to have better policies, better people and a better track record of governing. At the moment they have none of these.

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That's hilarious. Apart from the fact that the SNP and their wee chums the Tories have stuck together in the Parliament you seem to be missing several rather obvious points:

1. You don't need opposition votes to deliver on a promise on class sizes - it doesn't require legislation.

2. The role of the opposition is to oppose, not to do whatever a minority government needs them to do to help shore up a weak and struggling administration.

3. "Telling people that the SNP were anti galsgow is a cheap way to try to win votes." Hmm, don't you think that telling people that the other parties are anti Scottish is a cheap way to try to win votes?

But as I have said elsewhere your problem is that punters will look at the first SNP government and make up their own minds regardless of whether it was a minority administration. Its easy to be outsiders and above the dirty business of government when you have never been in power but once you're in, you're in. Compromised by the business of governing and as they said in 'The Untouchables' - "Touchable".

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Originally Posted by One Day Soon

That's hilarious. Apart from the fact that the SNP and their wee chums the Tories have stuck together in the Parliament you seem to be missing several rather obvious points:

1. You don't need opposition votes to deliver on a promise on class sizes - it doesn't require legislation.

2. The role of the opposition is to oppose, not to do whatever a minority government needs them to do to help shore up a weak and struggling administration.

3. "Telling people that the SNP were anti galsgow is a cheap way to try to win votes." Hmm, don't you think that telling people that the other parties are anti Scottish is a cheap way to try to win votes?

But as I have said elsewhere your problem is that punters will look at the first SNP government and make up their own minds regardless of whether it was a minority administration. Its easy to be outsiders and above the dirty business of government when you have never been in power but once you're in, you're in. Compromised by the business of governing and as they said in 'The Untouchables' - "Touchable".

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Couple of things, I have never heard the SNP saying anyone was anti Scottish. Anti Scottish policies this is undoubtedly true. Unionist yes, anti Scottish no. I'm sure that you will now come up with some obscure SNP supporter saying something like this.

Opposition is fine, but it would be good to hear why they oppose things and their policies to do things better. It's not good enough to just say thats rubbish and we wont support it, they need to come up with their own way of doing things. They continue to shout and moan but come up with nothing substantial as an alternative. They are becoming a boring party full of boring people

You are right punters will make up their own minds. I honestly believe that Scotland is a better place to live now than it was before devolution and even before this government came into power. I hope people realise that the mess the country is in is down almost entirely to the British Labour governments mismanagement over the last 13 years or so, probably even longer back to the Tories in fact. Labour were trying so hard to be like the Tories they let the financial sector dictate how it should be run and monitored, a policy that Gordon Brown up to a year or so ago was still crowing about and was boasting about how well the big financial institutions were benefitting. You know what, it makes him look a complete incompetant.

Graduate endowment abolished, council tax freeze, abolished tolls, more police, the SNP has done quite a lot for a minority government.

And as for the SNP delivering the Thatcher government, if you're going to believe that you may as well bend over and take a pumping off Jim Murphy. Labour only have themselves to blame for Thatcher by making such a cock up of governing the country at that time.

Let's not forget about the government of that time that was that scared of the SNP gaining more strength it hid a report by Scottish Economist Gavin McCrone that showed Scotland would be "chronically in surplus" if it was independent, gaining one of the strongest currencies in Europe.

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Originally Posted by One Day Soon

Say what you like, the SNP MPs voted down the Labour government in 1979 and Thatcher then won the election. You'll never live it down.

How's that local income tax coming along by the way? No?

How about the teachers and class sizes then? No?

Life's a wee bit harder when you can't just make it up as you go along isn't it?

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Way to sneer at a tax that is much fairer than Council Tax.

Local Income Tax failed because Scottish Labour, and others in the house, decided to oppose it with no other solutions offered. As a minority government, they were always going to struggle to implement it.

Scottish Labour are a joke. No ideas, no real opposition, they just act like childish school kids. Minimum pricing on alcohol is the perfect example. They oppose it in face of all many experts backing it, with no other idea about how to fix it.

Yes the SNP have failed on cutting class sizes, and I'm angry about that. Every government breaks manifesto promises though, and it's about balancing the good they've done with the broken promises.

More police on the street, free prescriptions, free higher education, council tax freeze, schools refurbished/new schools built, fighting to oppose trident, investment in renewables. That's good enough for me.