Christmas Light Switch on in Dundee

Nice thread!!

Am I the only one that really doesn't make a connection between naming a light ceromony a Winter White ( or Light depending on what part of the article is correct) Night and attacking the sanctity of Christmas.....let's be honest those people who hold a religious belief about Christmas will no doubt already be appaled that the day has been hijacked for an excuse to put lights all over the place in order to encourage people to shop and spend more anyway. So it could possibly be argued that changing the name of such events actually protects the name of Christmas and prevents it from being used for comercial gain!!


It's also rather bizzare to say that there is some concerted movement to deny that Christmas exists as a religious festival and even more bizzare to say that kids don't know about it or are somehow not being taught it compared to other religious events. I can assure you any child I know is well aware of Christmas has little or no idea of what Ramadan might be and no amount of toy town councillors are going to change that!


Finally I can think of nothing more off putting that going along to see the towns winter light display and then having to suffer a talking to from the local minister!!

I just hope no one mistakes it for white knights!

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Originally Posted by SiMar

Nice thread!!

Am I the only one that really doesn't make a connection between naming a light ceromony a Winter White ( or Light depending on what part of the article is correct) Night and attacking the sanctity of Christmas.....let's be honest those people who hold a religious belief about Christmas will no doubt already be appaled that the day has been hijacked for an excuse to put lights all over the place in order to encourage people to shop and spend more anyway. So it could possibly be argued that changing the name of such events actually protects the name of Christmas and prevents it from being used for comercial gain!!


It's also rather bizzare to say that there is some concerted movement to deny that Christmas exists as a religious festival and even more bizzare to say that kids don't know about it or are somehow not being taught it compared to other religious events. I can assure you any child I know is well aware of Christmas has little or no idea of what Ramadan might be and no amount of toy town councillors are going to change that!


Finally I can think of nothing more off putting that going along to see the towns winter light display and then having to suffer a talking to from the local minister!!

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All you have to do is look at the Christmas cards on display in any house. You'll be hard pushed to find a nativity scene, or religious message amongst the cuddly dogs dressed up as Santa with a tankard of beer in their hand.

Maybe Dumpdee (only joking folks), should have called their winter festival White Lightning, it would be a more appropriate reflection of Xmas revelries.

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Originally Posted by Peevemor®

That was the winter solstice and Constantine moved Christmas to coincide with it, but to say Christmas predates Christ is, as I said, just silly.

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I meant the previous festivals that had been re-named to fit the christians. But then I wouldn't have reeled anyone in that way...
Basically my point was that the middle of winter has understandably been celebrated in northern Europe especially since humans started farming here. It's name is not important.

I just like the days off and a rare chance to see my family and put my feet up from my ridiculously busy job when the winter is at it's darkest.

All the religious stuff, the materialism and search for meaning of it is peripheral. You can call it what you like or interpret it how you feel you need to.

I'll have a few days off whenever that's given and whether that's on account of the Christians, the Jews, the Muslims or Hindus, I couldnae gie a flyer.

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

And what of it if they are offended by it? Why does this country pander so much to minorities? :confused:

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Personally, I don't think that this country panders to minorities...rising BNP vote, at war in two Muslim countries, the continuing popularity of the Daily Mail and Sun, new immigration policies for non-EU.

The movement away from the Christian meaning of Christmas closely represents the changes in this country. Why do people think that changing from tradition is do with pandering to minonrities not representing the evolving views of the majority.

Christmas lights are an increase in electricity consumption and are as such a waste of money and harming the enviroment. They should be banned. :grr:

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Originally Posted by Green Mikey

Personally, I don't think that this country panders to minorities...rising BNP vote, at war in two Muslim countries, the continuing popularity of the Daily Mail and Sun, new immigration policies for non-EU.

The movement away from the Christian meaning of Christmas closely represents the changes in this country. Why do people think that changing from tradition is do with pandering to minonrities not representing the evolving views of the majority.

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Aye, sure we don't pander - cooncil leaflets in every language going - for starters. Go to Poland and see how that works over there.

I might go to the switch oan in Edinburgh on Thursday :greengrin

I'll ask how many are "Christians" :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

Aye, sure we don't pander - cooncil leaflets in every language going - for starters. Go to Poland and see how that works over there.

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I'd hardly call that pandering to minorities. Said leaflets are also in braille, large print and on spoken word format. It's just making important information accessible to a point. I think it's a mark of our civilisation that we consider the various citizens who make up society when providing public services. Besides, how would you propose you give information to a Chinese/Urdu/Bengali speaker to help them understand council tax if you don't give them the information? You can also legally insist on sitting your driving test in Welsh anywhere in the UK... a minority here, but a majority in some parts of Wales.

Cancelling Christmas and closing all you can eat buffets during Ramadan, however, would be pandering to minorities.

utterly discusting. Shame on you Dundee City Council......what an "up yours" to Christians.

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Originally Posted by hibee_boy

utterly discusting. Shame on you Dundee City Council......what an "up yours" to Christians.

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Will they turn the other cheek? WWJD?

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Originally Posted by blacksaltire

I'd hardly call that pandering to minorities. Said leaflets are also in braille, large print and on spoken word format. It's just making important information accessible to a point. I think it's a mark of our civilisation that we consider the various citizens who make up society when providing public services. Besides, how would you propose you give information to a Chinese/Urdu/Bengali speaker to help them understand council tax if you don't give them the information? You can also legally insist on sitting your driving test in Welsh anywhere in the UK... a minority here, but a majority in some parts of Wales.

Cancelling Christmas and closing all you can eat buffets during Ramadan, however, would be pandering to minorities.

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I'd expect them to learn english and read the leaflets written in english. Just like what I would have to do if I went to live in another country, as in my example, Poland.

Bring on the rants for my totally un-PC views.

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

I'd expect them to learn english and read the leaflets written in english. Just like what I would have to do if I went to live in another country, as in my example, Poland.

Bring on the rants for my totally un-PC views.

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Nowt to do with being un-PC, plenty to do with being utterly ludicrous.

Of course, when Brits move to say, Spain, they all become fluid in Spanish dont they? It's a case of being civilised, grown up society. Presumably anyone coming to the country has to be completely fluent in English before they arrive? Anyone looking to find out about how to learn English or access education has to just guess do they?

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Originally Posted by hibee_boy

utterly discusting. Shame on you Dundee City Council......what an "up yours" to Christians.

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ooohhh moral outrage. Are you offended? Do you feel that your religion is under threat? Or are you just venting pointlessly. By the way, you should write to the Daily Mail to get a job as a headline writer.

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

I'd expect them to learn english and read the leaflets written in english. Just like what I would have to do if I went to live in another country, as in my example, Poland.

Bring on the rants for my totally un-PC views.

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I'm not sure 'un-PC' and 'stupid' are exactly interchangeable terms.

1) What is your (slightly peculiar and obsessive) belief that local councils in Poland don't publish leaflets in languages other than Polish based on? I demand to be furnished with proof!

2) What exactly is it you object to about local councils here publishing leaflets in an array of languages? I can see the positives of helping someone out who would otherwise be completely ****ed, what are the drawbacks as far as you can see?

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

I'd expect them to learn english and read the leaflets written in english. Just like what I would have to do if I went to live in another country, as in my example, Poland.

Bring on the rants for my totally un-PC views.

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:agree: People who come to live in Britain, and who can't speak English, should have to take mandatory English lessons on their arrival.

It's ridiculous to compare producing information in a foreign language for people who can't speak English, with producing information in braille or large print etc.

People who are blind/deaf cannot communicate in any other way and have no choice in the matter. People who come here from abroad and speak no English can take English lessons but many choose not to.

As for the argument of 'I wonder how many Brits who go to live in Spain, bother to learn Spanish', I couldn't care less what happens in Spain or any other country. Of course if a British person goes to live in a non-English speaking country, they should learn the language but it's up to that particular country to make sure that happens.

My only concern is with what happens in the UK.

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

:agree: People who come to live in Britain, and who can't speak English, should have to take mandatory English lessons on their arrival.

It's ridiculous to compare producing information in a foreign language for people who can't speak English, with producing information in braille or large print etc.

People who are blind/deaf cannot communicate in any other way and have no choice in the matter. People who come here from abroad and speak no English can take English lessons but many choose not to.

As for the argument of 'I wonder how many Brits who go to live in Spain, bother to learn Spanish', I couldn't care less what happens in Spain or any other country. Of course if a British person goes to live in a non-English speaking country, they should learn the language but it's up to that particular country to make sure that happens.

My only concern is with what happens in the UK.

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Here's a scenario for you. Someone is offered a job - lets say a surgeon. He is from Bangladesh. His English is excellent. He needs English and has learned it from a very early age. He brings with him his wife and kids. The wife, having not needed to so far, does not have a good command of English at all. His kids have learned some at school. They speak Bengali at home.

Will you stop the surgeon from starting his job until all his family can speak English? Are the kids to be excluded from education until they can speak English? Is his wife not to join him in the UK until she can prove she speaks and understands English to a required level?

It's a very real example. There are very few people living in Edinburgh who cannot speak some level of English. Their reading skills might not be the same - try learning a language to speak and then learn to write or read it. Then try learning it if the alphabet or writing system is totally different.

So these leaflets - perhaps there are people who can communicate in English, or get by in it. But if they need particular information, is it best to present this in a format they will immediately understand, or do you insist that they must speak, read and write perfect English?

Presumably you're willing to wait for any council tax to be paid until they can understand the english version leaflet explaining how it works?

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

I'd expect them to learn english and read the leaflets written in english. Just like what I would have to do if I went to live in another country, as in my example, Poland.

Bring on the rants for my totally un-PC views.

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That's brutal! :grr:

Why do the Poles have to put up with their councils printing leaflets in English? :bitchy:

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Originally Posted by TwoCarpets

Nowt to do with being un-PC, plenty to do with being utterly ludicrous.

Of course, when Brits move to say, Spain, they all become fluid in Spanish dont they? It's a case of being civilised, grown up society. Presumably anyone coming to the country has to be completely fluent in English before they arrive? Anyone looking to find out about how to learn English or access education has to just guess do they?

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Ah, the old Spain debate. I specifically chose a country that I know about rather than one that I didn't.

I never said they had to be fluent. And no they don't have to guess, they can get a phrase book and work it out for themselves, just like I had to.

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Originally Posted by LiverpoolHibs

I'm not sure 'un-PC' and 'stupid' are exactly interchangeable terms.

1) What is your (slightly peculiar and obsessive) belief that local councils in Poland don't publish leaflets in languages other than Polish based on? I demand to be furnished with proof!

2) What exactly is it you object to about local councils here publishing leaflets in an array of languages? I can see the positives of helping someone out who would otherwise be completely ****ed, what are the drawbacks as far as you can see?

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1) Obsessive? Not sure how you work that one out? Unfortunately, I am unable to furnish you with proof as I've never seen leaflets in Urdhu/Chines/Bengali or any minority language in Poland

2) My objections? The amount of money that is spent on this is the main one, when it would be better spent elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

:agree: People who come to live in Britain, and who can't speak English, should have to take mandatory English lessons on their arrival.

It's ridiculous to compare producing information in a foreign language for people who can't speak English, with producing information in braille or large print etc.

People who are blind/deaf cannot communicate in any other way and have no choice in the matter. People who come here from abroad and speak no English can take English lessons but many choose not to.

As for the argument of 'I wonder how many Brits who go to live in Spain, bother to learn Spanish', I couldn't care less what happens in Spain or any other country. Of course if a British person goes to live in a non-English speaking country, they should learn the language but it's up to that particular country to make sure that happens.

My only concern is with what happens in the UK.

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I agree with you apart from the bit in bold. Think its up to the individual to learn not the country to teach them.

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Originally Posted by blacksaltire

Here's a scenario for you. Someone is offered a job - lets say a surgeon. He is from Bangladesh. His English is excellent. He needs English and has learned it from a very early age. He brings with him his wife and kids. The wife, having not needed to so far, does not have a good command of English at all. His kids have learned some at school. They speak Bengali at home.

Will you stop the surgeon from starting his job until all his family can speak English? Are the kids to be excluded from education until they can speak English? Is his wife not to join him in the UK until she can prove she speaks and understands English to a required level?

It's a very real example. There are very few people living in Edinburgh who cannot speak some level of English. Their reading skills might not be the same - try learning a language to speak and then learn to write or read it. Then try learning it if the alphabet or writing system is totally different.

So these leaflets - perhaps there are people who can communicate in English, or get by in it. But if they need particular information, is it best to present this in a format they will immediately understand, or do you insist that they must speak, read and write perfect English?

Presumably you're willing to wait for any council tax to be paid until they can understand the english version leaflet explaining how it works?

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I'll answer Yes to all your questions about the surgeon.
I think you are living in a dream world if you think there are very few people who cannot speak English in Edinburgh. I've come across a lot, normally older members of family, who have no intention of learning our language. Why? No need to.

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Originally Posted by Peevemor®

That's brutal! :grr:

Why do the Poles have to put up with their councils printing leaflets in English? :bitchy:

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Not sure if you're being funny or not but if not then who said they had to?

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

Ah, the old Spain debate.

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Stack or Maka?:confused:

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Originally Posted by marinello59

Stack or Maka?:confused:

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:tsk tsk: This is a non-football debate.

On the other hand - :tee hee:

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

My objections? The amount of money that is spent on this is the main one, when it would be better spent elsewhere.

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If you are going to take the economic argument, then you really need to think it through. The cost of printing (which is something I do know about) different language versions or different languages on a leaflet is minimal.

I would think (and i admit this is only a supposition) that the potential loss of revenue or extra additional indirect costs to the city/nation through lack of information would massively outweigh this.

Your view does smack of rather petty small-mindedness.

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

People who come to live in Britain, and who can't speak English, should have to take mandatory English lessons on their arrival.

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And then you could get all up-in-arms about having to pay for English lessons

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

It's ridiculous to compare producing information in a foreign language for people who can't speak English, with producing information in braille or large print etc.

People who are blind/deaf cannot communicate in any other way and have no choice in the matter. People who come here from abroad and speak no English can take English lessons but many choose not to.

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No, its a fair comparison with different specifics. Its about giving people in a society equal access to information. Around 800,000 adults in scotland have very low levels os literacy and numeracy. Whilst some, perhaps many, of these people will undoubtedly have learning issues, I'm presuming some had the choice to be able to learn to read and write both as children and adults. If we are a mature and civilised society, we should look after all these people - communication and information is critical to living succesfuly in a developed nation, and access to it is the responsibility of the nation.

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

As for the argument of 'I wonder how many Brits who go to live in Spain, bother to learn Spanish', I couldn't care less what happens in Spain or any other country. Of course if a British person goes to live in a non-English speaking country, they should learn the language but it's up to that particular country to make sure that happens.
My only concern is with what happens in the UK.

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You enjoy living in your splendidly isolated cocoon.

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

I'll answer Yes to all your questions about the surgeon.
I think you are living in a dream world if you think there are very few people who cannot speak English in Edinburgh. I've come across a lot, normally older members of family, who have no intention of learning our language. Why? No need to.

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Seems like we both need a reality check. I would say that there are not many people in Edinburgh who cannot speak a single word of english. But perhaps you look out for them more than I do?

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Originally Posted by blacksaltire

Seems like we both need a reality check. I would say that there are not many people in Edinburgh who cannot speak a single word of english. But perhaps you look out for them more than I do?

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I've never come across any. But then, I suppose they would confine themselves to their own family/community and not put themselves in situations where they don't need to speak English. I certainly can't think of anywhere you would go where you would be guaranteed to meet one - unlike the big cities like London.

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

:agree: People who come to live in Britain, and who can't speak English, should have to take mandatory English lessons on their arrival.

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What's it dependent upon? What happens if they find it so difficult and tortuous that they stop turning up? Or if they just decide not to turn up for whatever reason?

Stuck on the next boat out, aye?

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

It's ridiculous to compare producing information in a foreign language for people who can't speak English, with producing information in braille or large print etc.

People who are blind/deaf cannot communicate in any other way and have no choice in the matter. People who come here from abroad and speak no English can take English lessons but many choose not to.

As for the argument of 'I wonder how many Brits who go to live in Spain, bother to learn Spanish', I couldn't care less what happens in Spain or any other country. Of course if a British person goes to live in a non-English speaking country, they should learn the language but it's up to that particular country to make sure that happens.

My only concern is with what happens in the UK.

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It's always done on 'our' terms isn't it. It's entirely the fault of 'the Other' if there are societal divisions and it's entirely their fault if there's a backlash from the 'host' community because of this.

Apart from the ****ing stinking pettiness (as Two Carpets says) and underlying reactionary resentment of this sort of nasty ****, people don't seem to realise how it feeds into a culture in which racist abuse and attacks become legitimised and the far-right can thrive. The underlying (re)sentiment being, 'you're lucky we are allowing you to be here - adapt, conform and fit in (to a society that is, it increasingly appears, fundamentally antipathetic to your presence) or you're out on your ear'. While Labour attempts to regain ground lost to the BNP - which, historically, is always doomed to failure anyway - through uber-reactionary and racist pronouncements on immigration and 'Britishness' (Brown the other day: And everyone wants to be assured that newcomers will accept the responsibilities as well as the rights that come with living here – they’ll accept the responsibilities to obey the law, to speak English, to make a contribution.) they've been cutting funding for ESOL courses for the past five years.

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Originally Posted by ArabHibee

1) Obsessive? Not sure how you work that one out? Unfortunately, I am unable to furnish you with proof as I've never seen leaflets in Urdhu/Chines/Bengali or any minority language in Poland

2) My objections? The amount of money that is spent on this is the main one, when it would be better spent elsewhere.

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So again, what's it based on? Have you just decided to suppose it so as to (in no way) back up your argument?

2) How much does it cost?

Christmas Light Switch on in Dundee

What's the big deal what it's called?

It's only one light, FFS.

Or are we talking about the switch?

I'm confused.

I'm also half Polish and I can assure the ignoramuses on here that there is a lot more English printed in Polish cities than you'll find Polish in the UK.

Try finding a menu or Museum information in Polish for example.

Tricky discussion to try and "dip one's toe in", so to speak.

I found, through my time at Uni, that there are a lot of foreign students who come into the country, ABLE to speak/understand English, but chosing not to use it themselves, other than in their studies. Other times, I've no idea how they get into Uni over here at all.

I was in a Postgraduate Engineering course last year at Dundee, and out of a class of 70 students, there were 2 Scots and 6 Brits. The rest were Indian. We had to do assessments of each other based on presentation skill/ability every other week, and constantly, the Indian Students would flounder because they had a sub-standard grasp of the English language. Trying to mark their written efforts was a sodding nightmare, and I would constantly mark them down in peer review, as I couldn't decifer their grammar.

Now, kudos to them for coming to the UK and trying to do a degree in a secondary language (their English was certainly better than my Hindi), but in an academic institution, enforcement of English is a necessity (or should be). In the USA, you have to pass a written, reading and oral Test of English Capability test, and if you fail that, regardless to how much of a genius you are in your field, you're punted back to wherever you came from (be it India, Poland, Afghanistan or Canada :wink:) Sadly, with international students coughing up the best part of £9k per/annum, institutions here cannot afford to turn them away, and actively go out and recruit from these countries.

I'd rather places were taken by home-based students, but being that our places are so heavily subsidised, it's not cost effective for the Universities - the reason I would rather these places went to UK based students is not because I'm a racist/BNP voting/Daily Mail reading Nazi - it's two-fold, in the sense that a) International students don't integrate well into a research environment, as they usually seek comfort (or safety?) in numbers and b) their concept of acceptable behaviour is not what any normal student from the UK would deem appropriate. Going back to my example of Indian students in my Masters course last year, they would think nothing of arriving 15 minutes late, disrupting the lecture theatre as they all find seats together and loudly talking to one another (often translation)* during the lecture.

*Again, I don't speak Hindi, but was told this was the case at our student/staff rep meetings.

Despite this wild tangent, I don't think that Dundee City Council (as vile as I otherwise find them) are "hijacking Christmas". Initially, that WAS my knee jerk reaction, as I had been told that "they were embracing the multicultural aspect of Dundee", but this turned out to be wrong - the Christmas lights in Dundee still read Merry Christmas, the Churches are still heavily involved in the festivities, and Mass will continue to run every Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday, so there's no need to feel that your Christian rights are being interfered with.

I have many friends who are from racially mixed backgrounds and we're all looking forward to spending time with each other and each other's families during the festive period - I'll celebrate Christmas, they won't, but they will spend the Holidays with their families and friends, just like I will, and wouldn't piss and moan about the country shutting down for a few days, despite their non-Christian backgrounds. I've yet to come across a significant portion of migrants to the UK who dislike services stopping over Christmas. Besides, we need some group of people to man the call-centres/corner shops/buses without complaint (tongue firmly in cheek!)

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Originally Posted by The Story So Far...

Tricky discussion to try and "dip one's toe in", so to speak.

I found, through my time at Uni, that there are a lot of foreign students who come into the country, ABLE to speak/understand English, but chosing not to use it themselves, other than in their studies. Other times, I've no idea how they get into Uni over here at all.

I was in a Postgraduate Engineering course last year at Dundee, and out of a class of 70 students, there were 2 Scots and 6 Brits. The rest were Indian. We had to do assessments of each other based on presentation skill/ability every other week, and constantly, the Indian Students would flounder because they had a sub-standard grasp of the English language. Trying to mark their written efforts was a sodding nightmare, and I would constantly mark them down in peer review, as I couldn't decifer their grammar.

Now, kudos to them for coming to the UK and trying to do a degree in a secondary language (their English was certainly better than my Hindi), but in an academic institution, enforcement of English is a necessity (or should be). In the USA, you have to pass a written, reading and oral Test of English Capability test, and if you fail that, regardless to how much of a genius you are in your field, you're punted back to wherever you came from (be it India, Poland, Afghanistan or Canada :wink:) Sadly, with international students coughing up the best part of £9k per/annum, institutions here cannot afford to turn them away, and actively go out and recruit from these countries.

I'd rather places were taken by home-based students, but being that our places are so heavily subsidised, it's not cost effective for the Universities - the reason I would rather these places went to UK based students is not because I'm a racist/BNP voting/Daily Mail reading Nazi - it's two-fold, in the sense that a) International students don't integrate well into a research environment, as they usually seek comfort (or safety?) in numbers and b) their concept of acceptable behaviour is not what any normal student from the UK would deem appropriate. Going back to my example of Indian students in my Masters course last year, they would think nothing of arriving 15 minutes late, disrupting the lecture theatre as they all find seats together and loudly talking to one another (often translation)* during the lecture.

*Again, I don't speak Hindi, but was told this was the case at our student/staff rep meetings.

Despite this wild tangent, I don't think that Dundee City Council (as vile as I otherwise find them) are "hijacking Christmas". Initially, that WAS my knee jerk reaction, as I had been told that "they were embracing the multicultural aspect of Dundee", but this turned out to be wrong - the Christmas lights in Dundee still read Merry Christmas, the Churches are still heavily involved in the festivities, and Mass will continue to run every Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday, so there's no need to feel that your Christian rights are being interfered with.

I have many friends who are from racially mixed backgrounds and we're all looking forward to spending time with each other and each other's families during the festive period - I'll celebrate Christmas, they won't, but they will spend the Holidays with their families and friends, just like I will, and wouldn't piss and moan about the country shutting down for a few days, despite their non-Christian backgrounds. I've yet to come across a significant portion of migrants to the UK who dislike services stopping over Christmas. Besides, we need some group of people to man the call-centres/corner shops/buses without complaint (tongue firmly in cheek!)

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Interesting post.

If you take the OP/subject as a wider comment on "pandering to minorities", then it raises lots of relevant points.

If domestic students are not being actively discriminated against for entry to Post-Graduate courses, then the fact of large numbers of indian or other foreign students is just that, a fact. The income generated from fees your course is over £600,000. If it didnt come from there it would need to come from somehwere else - seems a win-win to me.

As for behaviour, thats a different matter - the University should have set acceptable levels of behaviour, or horsed the culprits out. Cultural difference in an academic setting should not be a permissible excuse for being disruptive.

There are settings where the local culture is dominant. Ive managed teams of workers from Polish, Asian, Afro-Caribbean as well as white UK backgrounds. In a work environment there is a requirement to conform to what is acceptable and expected. I dont think you can afford to discriminate in any way when it comes to what is required in a structured setting.

By the way, the only factor which related to language or ability to understand in that work setting was could the individual understand the instructions given to be able to do the job safely and properly. If they couldnt, they didnt work.