Trams

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Originally Posted by Cherrose

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Originally Posted by piemanpilley

with the way technology is developing as the previous poster said both trains and buses can be run on electricity and other renewably sources, give it a good few years and the majority of cars wont be petrol run.

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:agree: That is the plan anyway - on Panorama a few months ago they were talking about using rapeseed oil for car engines instead of petrol. Tests have been carried out and rapeseed oil is a good equivalent for petrol and more eco-friendly for the car and clean air.

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The only problem with rapeseed oil is that we will never be able to grow enough of it. Independant studies have been carried out here in France and they have discovered that if they planted the entire country with the stuff, they still wouldn't be able to fuel the number of cars that exist today.

I'm impartial to the trams being built but one thing I would say is that they've totally neglected the south side. Surely there would be demand for them there too?:dunno:

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Originally Posted by Dashing Bob S

Trams are both a fantastic idea and absolutely essential. Our cities are medieval in design and not built for motorised transport, which is destroying the environment and has had its day, particularly in the cities. In the long run, moving to eco-friendly rapid transit is the way to go.

Of course there will be cost, hassle and inconvenience. So what? Deal with and stop moaning in the selfish, knee-jerk backwoodsman manner about every beneficial change just because it might cause you a bit of short-term hassle.

My biggest bugbear about the trams is that system should have been up and running at least a decade ago. That god they are actually getting their fingers out and doing it.

The Dublin trams are fantastic, and like good eye laser surgery, people wonder how they ever got by without it. They moaned in Athens about the underground, yes, they had eight years of hassle, but car volumes were growing exponentially so they would have had this bother anyway. Now those of us who don't fancy the sheer, abject nightmare of driving in that city have a decent alternative.

A comprehensive rapid transit system is a process of long-term development. Dublin's will continue to improve as more lines open and link up. Manchester and Croydon wouldn't go back to buses for love nor money either. It'll be a long slog but when it is running, other cities like Glasgow will look enviously at us and want one too. Let's be a wee bit less mean-spirited and leave something decent for our kids and subsequent generations. We've taken and are taking loads and loads, so why not just shut up and put up with the hassle for the sake of progress?

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The short term "hassle" as you put it Boab, is only a small part of it.

The long term WASTE of cash, against the wishes of so many, sticks in my throat.

Who says its progress? If it were such a brilliant idea, every major capital city on planet earth would be moving to trams and sharpish.....funnily enough, I dont see this happening.

An underground solution (if architectually and structurally possible) MIGHT be an idea but only if it improves what we have, is COST effective and doesnt replace the most frequent ***** route we have with an expensive tram that will be ****ed if Princess Street is shut, as mentioned above (Unless of course, one can re-route the tram in a "go go gadget copter" style).

Waste of the tax payers money. ENDOF

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Originally Posted by Zeberdee

Thanks to the SNP for cancelling this. Especially after millions already having been spent by network rail to install a signalling system to accomodate this.

The SNP in reality, have spent the money elsewhere, on their short term policies in order to wow voters and ensure they get in another term and push through independence. By that time we wont be able to afford a proper rail link.

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What is your economic argument against independence? I am genuinely interested to here what you believe to be this strong case against running our own country, using our own resources, for our own good?

In all seriousness, I'm interested ..... :agree:

I would guess it may very well be based on the spin and conjecture the unionist parties would have everyone believe.

It goes back to who you believe and the fundamental principle most humans believe to be true namely, most people/animals/whatever do something for a reason....its those reasons that define who you believe.

I have yet to find the good Samaritan that the UK Government apparently are, giving Scotland this massive subsidy when large portions of Scotland are in favour of independence.....alas, if I were the UK Government, I would surely cut all ties with the pesky leach that is Scotland, IF it were this leacherous state we are all led to believe we are....

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Originally Posted by Iain G

Hmmm, looking forward to Lyle Lanley working for TIE if thats the case :thumbsup:

"Well, sir, there's nothing on earth
Like a genuine,
Bona fide,
Electrified,
Six-car
Monorail!"

:thumbsup:

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:greengrin

Works in Sydney though, even though it is just a small one there. I quite liked it. Plus it allowed the normal traffic to flow normally.

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Originally Posted by GordonTurnbull

Why not a monorail above street level?

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Originally Posted by Iain G

Hmmm, looking forward to Lyle Lanley working for TIE if thats the case :thumbsup:

"Well, sir, there's nothing on earth
Like a genuine,
Bona fide,
Electrified,
Six-car
Monorail!"

:thumbsup:

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As long as Homer Simpson is driving it, you get my vote :wink:

Simpson eh............... :greengrin

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Originally Posted by sg7nil

The Balfour St stop will be handy for me (and for punters getting to ER and Jaynes Bar) however are you seriously suggesting that theres only 1 stop on the whole length of Princes St??? I assume it's scheduled to be near the middle ? Near the Mound? Can you imagine the queues to get on or off there during busy periods? Surely there should be a stop to service Waverly Station (at Waverly Bridge perhaps?)

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Apologies, there will also be a stop at McDonald Road (not present in the original plan I saw). There will, however, only be one stop in Princes Street. The nearest other stops are St Andrew Square and Shandwick Place.

http://www.tramtime.com/tramhovermap.html

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Originally Posted by GordonTurnbull

:greengrin

Works in Sydney though, even though it is just a small one there. I quite liked it. Plus it allowed the normal traffic to flow normally.

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I know, I've been on it, was there last year and did the whole loop back to where we started, singing the Monorail song as we went :thumbsup:

Mono.....d'oh!

Genuienly think this is how we came to have a tram system, some sheister(sp?) watch this episode of the Simpsons and wondered which most gullable of city cooncils he could sell the idea to...

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Originally Posted by Iain G

I know, I've been on it, was there last year and did the whole loop back to where we started, singing the Monorail song as we went :thumbsup:

Mono.....d'oh!

Genuienly think this is how we came to have a tram system, some sheister(sp?) watch this episode of the Simpsons and wondered which most gullable of city cooncils he could sell the idea to...

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Some clown called "Lyall Lanley" turned up at the city chambers, made a quip about how trams were more of a "Glasgow idea", explained how trams put Brockway, Ogdenville and North Haverbrook on the map (by gum!), sung a mad song and that was it. Boom! We have trams.

I call the big one 'Bitey'...

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Originally Posted by BoozyLynne

Some clown called "Lyall Lanley" turned up at the city chambers, made a quip about how trams were more of a "Glasgow idea", explained how trams put Brockway, Ogdenville and North Haverbrook on the map (by gum!), sung a mad song and that was it. Boom! We have trams.

I call the big one 'Bitey'...

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Donuts, is there anything they can't do??

This is all that's left of one of the crappiest trains ever built.
Mr Kobb, what can we do?
You just better have a damn good conductor.

Marge: Well, I think we should spend the money on something the whole town can be proud of.
Homer: Like a giant billboard that says "No fat chicks"?

Marge: Homer, there's a man here who thinks he can help you.
Homer: Batman?
Marge: No, he's a scientist.
Homer: Batman's a scientist.
Marge: It's NOT Batman.

Possibly the bestest episode ever!! (sorry, lil off topic again!) :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Iain G

Donuts, is there anything they can't do??

This is all that's left of one of the crappiest trains ever built.
Mr Kobb, what can we do?
You just better have a damn good conductor.

Marge: Well, I think we should spend the money on something the whole town can be proud of.
Homer: Like a giant billboard that says "No fat chicks"?

Marge: Homer, there's a man here who thinks he can help you.
Homer: Batman?
Marge: No, he's a scientist.
Homer: Batman's a scientist.
Marge: It's NOT Batman.

Possibly the bestest episode ever!! (sorry, lil off topic again!) :greengrin

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Nice steal from IMDB on that last one :greengrin:wink:

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Originally Posted by BoozyLynne

Nice steal from IMDB on that last one :greengrin:wink:

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I know...did you check yours there too?? :wink:

Am looking forward to Edinburgh building the Popsicle Stick Skyscraper, the 50foot magnifying glass, and the escalator to nowhere....

The trams will be run by a french company that is working with Lothian Buses. IIRC there will be about 20 less Lothian Buses on the road and by the time the trams are up and running most of the bus routes will have changed as the buses will actually feed the trams. I know for sure that no buses will run on leith walk and i am led to believe that none will run on the same route as the tram. The tram route will not run directly into the airport it will stop at Gogarburn and once again i am led to believe a shuttle bus will go back and forth between the tram line and the airport.

*The bit in Italic/underlined i am a little confused about as i know Lothian Buses are keeping their airport service but i thought this was the same route as the tram.

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Originally Posted by Al_Bundy

The trams will be run by a french company that is working with Lothian Buses. IIRC there will be about 20 less Lothian Buses on the road and by the time the trams are up and running most of the bus routes will have changed as the buses will actually feed the trams. I know for sure that no buses will run on leith walk and i am led to believe that none will run on the same route as the tram. The tram route will not run directly into the airport it will stop at Gogarburn and once again i am led to believe a shuttle bus will go back and forth between the tram line and the airport.

*The bit in Italic/underlined i am a little confused about as i know Lothian Buses are keeping their airport service but i thought this was the same route as the tram.

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20 less buses, well that will help with congestion no end, what happens if we put in a 2nd tram line, there will be 40 less buses, well worth the 500 million, and rising... :wink:

I do not belive that no buses will run on Leith Walk, simple as that, and the same for the rest of the tram route. If LRT or TIE are saying different I expect that to be a lot of old bollox :agree:

And the not connecting to the airport is an absolute joke and scandal, but we shouldn't expect anything less than an almighty cock up from Tie and our useless representitives on this Council who simply have no bloody clue or idea on how to do the best for Edinburgh. Integrated transport planning my arse, bunch of idiots the lot of them...:brickwall:brickwall

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Originally Posted by Iain G

20 less buses, well that will help with congestion no end, what happens if we put in a 2nd tram line, there will be 40 less buses, well worth the 500 million, and rising... :wink:

I do not belive that no buses will run on Leith Walk, simple as that, and the same for the rest of the tram route. If LRT or TIE are saying different I expect that to be a lot of old bollox :agree:

And the not connecting to the airport is an absolute joke and scandal, but we shouldn't expect anything less than an almighty cock up from Tie and our useless representitives on this Council who simply have no bloody clue or idea on how to do the best for Edinburgh. Integrated transport planning my arse, bunch of idiots the lot of them...:brickwall:brickwall

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There was a reason as to why it was not getting extended to the airport but for the life of me i cant remember.

I have no clue how well this system will work and i dont even agree with it happening in edinburgh but you cant fail to notice how well it does work in other cities(as stated by other posters and yourself). For the amount of funding it is getting i honestly can not see how it could fail. Time will tell i suppose.

P.S in my first post i was just passing on what i had been told through my work, was not saying i agree with what the clowncil is doing.

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Originally Posted by Al_Bundy

There was a reason as to why it was not getting extended to the airport but for the life of me i cant remember.

I have no clue how well this system will work and i dont even agree with it happening in edinburgh but you cant fail to notice how well it does work in other cities(as stated by other posters and yourself). For the amount of funding it is getting i honestly can not see how it could fail. Time will tell i suppose.

P.S in my first post i was just passing on what i had been told through my work, was not saying i agree with what the clowncil is doing.

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Its cool, I just don't believe that no buses will share the routes as the trams, Edinburgh isn't big enough to do this and LRT will still wanting to be making cash from buses on these still busy routes :agree:

It could fail because its a half arsed scheme that has been cut down from the original scale due to lack of money and inflation! Its one piece in a jigsaw where the cooncil can't even find the box, never mind half the pieces or the picture of what it should eventually look like... :wink:

Just a note whilst staying firmly on the fence...

I worked in Manchester for a while and used the tram from Stretford to the city centre every morning and absolutely loved it to bits in comparison to moving around Edinburgh (except from some scally smashing my car window one morning!)

Manchester is a bit more spread out and has more obvious population hot spots in the suburbs but the convenience of a regular tram service to (just about) wherever you need to go was a breath of fresh air to someone used to Edinburgh buses and scotrail commuter trains.

Whether I'll revise this point of view the next time I'm going through Shandwick Place is another matter entirely. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Iain G

I know...did you check yours there too?? :wink:

Am looking forward to Edinburgh building the Popsicle Stick Skyscraper, the 50foot magnifying glass, and the escalator to nowhere....

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I just put "Simpsons quotes monorai" into Google after you posted it and that's what came up :wink:

"Now just a minute. We're twice as smart as the people of Shelbyville. Just tell us your idea and we'll vote for it"

So as not to turn this thread into Cheeseboard material (:devil:), will the trams run on the greenways or will they run on the lane where cars are allowed to go?

Another thing, which is slightly related, is why don't the council allow people who car-pool to use the Greenways? You see plenty single occupant cars in the mornings during rush hour, so why not encourage people to car-pool? It works in the states where they have car-pool lanes on motorways, so I don't see why it couldn't work in Edinburgh. I guess the only thing is it may be tough to police. Arguably, it wouldn't be any tougher to police than cars going on Greenways though.

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Originally Posted by BoozyLynne

I just put "Simpsons quotes monorai" into Google after you posted it and that's what came up :wink:

"Now just a minute. We're twice as smart as the people of Shelbyville. Just tell us your idea and we'll vote for it"

So as not to turn this thread into Cheeseboard material (:devil:), will the trams run on the greenways or will they run on the lane where cars are allowed to go?

Another thing, which is slightly related, is why don't the council allow people who car-pool to use the Greenways? You see plenty single occupant cars in the mornings during rush hour, so why not encourage people to car-pool? It works in the states where they have car-pool lanes on motorways, so I don't see why it couldn't work in Edinburgh. I guess the only thing is it may be tough to police. Arguably, it wouldn't be any tougher to police than cars going on Greenways though.

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Like they will down Princes St (see marketing pics) I expect trams will run down the middle of the roads, thus on normal traffic lanes, and not greenways, so normal commuters will be held up, not the LRT buses WHICH WILL STILL BE RUNNING ON THE TRAM ROUTES :agree:

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Originally Posted by TheBall'sRound

Just a note whilst staying firmly on the fence...

I worked in Manchester for a while and used the tram from Stretford to the city centre every morning and absolutely loved it to bits in comparison to moving around Edinburgh (except from some scally smashing my car window one morning!)

Manchester is a bit more spread out and has more obvious population hot spots in the suburbs but the convenience of a regular tram service to (just about) wherever you need to go was a breath of fresh air to someone used to Edinburgh buses and scotrail commuter trains.

Whether I'll revise this point of view the next time I'm going through Shandwick Place is another matter entirely. :greengrin

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I know your sitting on the fence so this is not a direct reply to you, but if this is this is the main adavantage of trams in Manchester then it makes this TIE system even more pointless as

1. The trams aren't going anywhere that a 22 bus can't take you. What if I wanted to go too anywhere in the south side of the city, it'd be by bus.

2. Sure they might be a breath of fresh air but it isn't that much quicker or convenient than a 22, the 22 bus gets to leith from the gyle in 25 minutes and apart from Western approach is always in a bus lane, so the trasm may only be 2 or 3 minutes quicker :confused:

The only way that trams will be effective is if they go throught the whole city and the outskirts, if it only gos to selected parts it seems a waste imo. I quite like the idea of a monorail too they look quite smart in japan etc.

As an aside.
Isn't there anyone even slightly concerned with the imminent overhead cable installation along the length of Princes St. & Leith Walk ?

In light of current planning bureaucracy (where you need permission to erect a tree house in your own back garden) did anyone ask if it would be ok to install pylons and cables throughout the heart of a world heritage centre ? :cool2:

And that's one of my biggest gripes about the trams - would any other organisation have been given the go-ahead for overhead cables running through the middle of a WHO and ruining the views of the Castle (which is Edinburgh's single biggest selling point)?

Leith Walk must be one of the best served routes in Edinburgh for buses going up to Princes Street. Won't the trams just remove or impinge upon their use of the road space? Will cars not just divert through the Hillside, Broughton, Pilrig, etc?

And yet many suburban rail lines still exist. The infrastructure is there, yet when I discussed this with Network Rail and Transport Scotland, they couldn't even tell me if any feasabilities had been done into it. Yes, Edinburgh in rail terms has substantial pressures on it, but ther eis no solution that can't be solved. Some bloody planner somewhere just wants to force trams upon a city that does not want it.

As for m? I can't foresee a time I'll need to use a tram. It's a rigid route, inflexible and the developers at the Waterfront must have been rubbing their hands given that the trams seem to serve that development while neglecting the existing population of the City.

I have seen nothing so far to entice me to use a tram, and certainly nothing that has been happening over the past few months in Edinburgh has endeared any part of the project to me. Can't help but think that a better use of the funding would have been to fix holes in school roofs and give the younger generations in Edinburgh a chance to be educated in a non-dilapidated ruin of a school.

Besides, when I was on a tram in Manchester, I was overtaken by pedestrians! :agree:

i was amazed about them shutting down shandwick place for so long, and i have to go through there twice a day but i have been getting home 10 minutes earlier this week to my surprise.

don't know if it will all be worth the £'s and stress, but i do think that a lot of people who've been slating the project for years will be enjoying the trams when they arrive. having been on them in sheffield, its a much more comfortable way of travelling than the bus and they will avoid some really bad traffic in gorgie etc saving a lot of time for folk heading into the city centre from the west.

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Originally Posted by hibsdaft

i was amazed about them shutting down shandwick place for so long, and i have to go through there twice a day but i have been getting home 10 minutes earlier this week to my surprise.

don't know if it will all be worth the £'s and stress, but i do think that a lot of people who've been slating the project for years will be enjoying the trams when they arrive. having been on them in sheffield, its a much more comfortable way of travelling than the bus and they will avoid some really bad traffic in gorgie etc saving a lot of time for folk heading into the city centre from the west.

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I actually quite enjoy buses when they arrive - the biggest bugbear I have with them isn't the journey times but the waiting at bus stops.

Waste of Money, could be spent on improving the bus services, if the scottish parliament is anything to go by, then these will be way over budget, and within the first few months they'll have broken down countless numbers of times, and no-one will have used them. In short they are a bad idea, it might work in a city like Dublin where the population is almost (if not greater than) 1 million, but not in Edinburgh.

trams are excellent as long as there are enough lines and they are fare controlled.(Iv paid for the tram something like 3 times since september over here).

will edinburgh meet these criteria? probably not. they should look at copying madrid or amsterdam