The second goal is all Boyle’s doing he makes at least three errors in build up. Macey did fine and imho did nothing wrong for either goal. Looks a decent keeper but far too early for lots of praise or criticism at this stage.
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The second goal is all Boyle’s doing he makes at least three errors in build up. Macey did fine and imho did nothing wrong for either goal. Looks a decent keeper but far too early for lots of praise or criticism at this stage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooster
:agree:
Hardly chucked one in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooster
Fwiw I may have had a shandy or two too many last night and looking back on my posts on the subject I agree I came across as a fanny, I’m more than capable of doing that sober so chucking bevy into the mix is a dangerous combination.
I do still think he could have done better with the goals and think he was caught flat footed, I also don’t think he’s as good as Marciano.
That said, who cares, he played a part in getting us through to the semi final and I completely agree with Strachan that his presence in the shoot out was a factor in Motherwells poor penalties.
I think he missed the sarcasm in your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovethehibs
I’ve got my first couple of keeper coaching badges (before it starts costing four figure sums to get to b licence!) and coach the same 11-15 age group as PB. I’m also a bit of a geek for analysis and podcasts and training videos. None of this means I’m absolutely right all the time about my opinion about goalkeeping, most of the best comment comes from a humble place where you make clear that all opinions are equally valid if they come from a point of trying to understand what the player is trying to do and what’s going through his mind when he makes his decision.
There’s a total lack of proper analysis of keeping on tv, for some reason they think that McManaman or Keane or Neville are qualified to do the job, when they don’t have a clue, still banging on about ‘getting beat on the near post should never happen’ and being ‘flat footed’, does my head in.
I think he’s a solid enough keeper, just feel the comments about him being blameless for the second goal last night are wrong IMO. When you see the angle on Sportscene from behind the goal, he’s at least a yard too far over, and the ball only passes him by about 2 yards, if his positioning is correct then he just picks the ball up. Also if he’s that yard over, he’s still more than capable of covering his near post as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooster
My first thought at the first goal was ‘where is he going?’ Then watching the replay confirmed that, positioning was poor. He may not have got it anyway but if he’s more in the center of the goal it at least gives him a better shot.
It’s not even a debate for me, Marciano is a level above in my opinion. In saying that I’d be interested to see stats for goals conceded on average which you can comfortably say are goalkeeper errors. I suspect Marciano comes out on top. He is going to be extremely difficult to replace.
Problem with GK stats part oneQuote:
Originally Posted by Dazzling Doidge
1. Judging what is an ‘error’ is subjective. If we go by what football pundits say I’d only agree with them 1 time out of 10. Even opta can’t really be trusted.
2. % stats are much better than absolute stats but you hardly ever see them. A keeper who plays behind ten poor teammates is always going to concede more shots and more errors than someone who plays in front of a better team.
3. Some keepers have a busier style that lends them to more saves, interceptions, crosses claimed but also more mistakes. Lloris is a good example, the classic sweeper keeper, comes out for lots of through balls and crosses and will make a few VISIBLE mistakes. De Gea is risk averse, but when he doesn’t come out, it might not be a visible error but he hasn’t helped his team and so might indirectly to a goal. So he gets let off by the pundit.
There’s lots more :greengrin
Edit-confused subjective and objective there. Clear error.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hibsbollah
:top marks
That’s why I said you could comfortably say were goalkeeping errors.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibsbollah
Just checked wiki. Maka had a 13 year career. Total games played 66....57 of them for hibs. He played just 9 games in about 9years after he left us. I think eddie turnbull was right!!Quote:
Originally Posted by truehibernian
Good points, like this. Sounds like you need to come up with a better way to analyse goalies and sell it to sky/bt [emoji6]Quote:
Originally Posted by hibsbollah
Neither of the goals were comfortable viewing but I agree with whoever made the point that they lie somewhere in that vast area between “Macey did nothing wrong” and “howler from the goalkeeper”.
The first one seems to have 3 or 4 of our players just watching it go in but it’s hard to pick any one out and say that they should have done more.
The second irritates me more. We’d played well early on in the game and put 4 or 5 very good balls into the Motherwell box. A combination of solid defending and lack of something on our part to get on the end of them meant that we didn’t score from any of them. Their second goal came from a basic lump into the box, and I just find it harder to accept that we shouldn’t be expecting to deal better with the cross.
Eyes will be on Macey now but I’ve been quite happy with him so far and would probably be happy going with him. He had other good moments in the match and I think the fact that we had a 6ft7 goalkeeper will have been in the minds of their players taking penalties.
I also don’t think it would be very clever of Ross to go back on his word if he’s promised Macey all the cup games.
Yes I agree with you and pretty boy on that. There’s a clear error and there’s a maybe could have done better. We could call it a ‘whits the keeper daein Tam’ and the ‘He’ll be wondering if he could have done better there, Brian’ mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smartie
I think just having an elite goalkeeper or goalkeeping coach on occasionally would be a big step forward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibee Mac
I like Gary Neville as a pundit and he was obviously a top player but there are times when you get the 'I want my keeper dealing with that' stuff from him. It would be good to hear a counter argument from an informed position. I daresay a couple of all time greats like Schmeichel and Van Der Sar weren't going to to Neville for assessment of their performance when they were team mates.
It isn't necessarily about having someone say the keeper is never at fault but rather giving informed opinion on what kind of things the keeper and their coaching team will assess when looking back at a conceded goal. It's probably quite different from what a lot of people expect.
It’s a hard call for me having seen them back, they most definitely are not howlers but i feel he could have done better on them.
That said, the defence was awful on both.
As I've posted elsewhere, he certainly didn't look too clever for the first but I don't think he could have got to it anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRobot
The 2nd for me is definitely down to the defence. With that said, it maybe wouldn't have happened had Macey had more matches with the defence to develop an understanding.
Having watched the goals again, i'm not convinced he could have done anything with either goal. I'd like to see them from behind the goal though, but i dont think he could get anywhere near them from what i've seen.
Goalies are always the fall guys and need to be strong characters. It's a fair point that saving the ball is their job, but if everyone else had done their jobs then Macey wouldn't have had to do his.
I’m not feeling it with Macey. Was it all his fault and were they actual howlers? No.
But I’m not filled with confidence he’s a number 1 at this level, especially if we want to kick on.
I agree with the people saying they weren’t howlers but he could’ve done better. I find it hard to believe that anyone could watch the first goal and think he’s blameless, it was like he was anticipating a touch that never came. I’m sure he’ll be disappointed with himself for conceding that as better positioning would have led to a comfortable save. The second goal looks worse because he didn’t make an effort to save it, but he wouldn’t have got it anyway.
Let’s get back to the full backs on each post to boot the ba away
😃
I think for their first goal he was convinced it was going wide, he actually starts to lift his left hand and prepares to try and make the save but stops before the ball goes in. Even giving him the benefit of the doubt and accepting he thought he had no chance of getting to the ball and therefore didn't bother trying asks questions about his own self believe. For the second I think a keeper with reasonable reflexes might have got to it with his feet and again Macey seemed to have made his mind up that he was not getting to that ball. Maybe I'm expecting too much from him but for me standing still without even trying to make the save is not an option, a good keeper has to at least try and make the impossible possible and not just accept he's been beaten.
If you can watch Sportscene the third angle is from behind the goal, shows his positioning quite clearly for the second. He’s just the last error in a catalogue of them though.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs
I just rewatched the 2 goals there and sorry but Macey deserves criticism for both. As I said before not 100% at fault but definitely played his part.
I'm convinced Marciano saves that first one, 2nd one is more of a 50/50 between defenders and Maceys fault for me.
Martin Boyle is more to blame for the 2nd than anyone. Gave it away stupidly under little pressure and then doesn't even challenge Watt, lets him round the back without shouting or going with. Terrible from him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibee Mac
I struggle to blame a keeper when its a free header from 8 yards.
First one is a bit of a fluke goal that catches Macey out.
Both my son and I were goalies. I was having this discussion with him a while ago. I said that I insisted on a defender on each post, not the tall guys as in those days if necessary they would jump and stop it with their hands, give the pen away but not get a red card. He said that was so old fashioned and that you needed as many as possible to mark attacking jumpers.Quote:
Originally Posted by BILLYHIBS
Every time I saw a goal go in at the post I just looked at him and smiled knowingly.
:agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by ACLeith
Lost count of the number of balls I kicked off the line in my playing days
Now my other pet peeve was playing with gash goalkeepers :greengrin
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES
Excellent summary, thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
You can see from Boyle reaction he knows he's mucked upQuote:
Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES
A free header form 8 yards from a floated cross is the only question against macey there
Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk
The other argument is that having a guy on the line often serves only to keep the attacking team onside when there’s a stramash in the goalmouth. and the ball gets bundled in. Went out of fashion with time.Quote:
Originally Posted by ACLeith
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs
He certainly didn’t get anywhere near them. I think we can all agree on that. :greengrin
I agree it's gone out of fashion but that doesn't mean it's a good move. Of course I've no stats to back up my argument but when's that ever stopped anyone on here 🤔Quote:
Originally Posted by hibsbollah
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACLeith
Liverpool play a variant of it at corners, Robertson is always at the front post but about 3-6 yards out, Alexander-Arnold the same at the back post, and they then have the flexibility to drop to the post if necessary, or adapt to whatever situation comes out of the corner
You might be right, there’s arguments both ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by ACLeith
That's how I always liked to set up.Quote:
Originally Posted by McD
It stops the ball being whipped in at the near post as well as the player at the front can cut it out.
I like Macey, i think for all his faults at the goals yesterday, and I do think there were faults of his, the defending was equally poor, this will be a case of not knowing what we’ve got till it’s gone with Marciano.
There should be no question now of having a cup goalkeeper. Best team possible. Too much at stake.
Agreed. Massive opportunity so we need to go full strength.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy74
Marciano must play in the remaining games in the cup. Not worth risking giving Macey any more time in the sticks, give him the last couple of league games just not the one of cup games
Macey could win an FA Cup and a Scottish Cup badge both from the bench
Fingers crossed
Sorry BH missed your reply. Don't think we played together though I certainly had some "gash" games! (and for balance some where I was the man of the match - usually one followed the other in quick succession) :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by BILLYHIBS
And I never came close to doing a Zander Clark :greengrin
👍🏿Quote:
Originally Posted by ACLeith
Brilliant save at 1-0 from Devante Cole. Out very quick and stayed up really well and made a good save.
1st goal - I’ve noticed him do this a lot but it’s like a half fall/stumble he does when he thinks it’s going wide.
2nd - Again he sort of gives up. I don’t know because if his size he finds it hard but he just never looked mobile or flexible for me. Sort your feet out and get down.
Even one of the pens I remember thinking he went the right way and probably should have saved it if he got down quicker.
He’s looked good overall but there’s been a couple I think have went in a bit too easily.
I watched both goals yesterday thinking how on earth has that went in and trickled over the line.
Don’t get me wrong Marciano has made quite a few mistakes with us but there’s very few, if any, I remember thinking he doesn’t look mobile or left wondering how it’s managed to go in.
I spoke to a goalie coach last night and he said he wouldn’t put Macey to blame for either of the goals.
But but loads of people on here say he was. 😒Quote:
Originally Posted by matty_f
Ryan Christie freekick Scottish Cup Semi Final at Hampden beat Rocky at his near post in fact I think he dived when the ball was in alreadyQuote:
Originally Posted by Unseen work
I was asking myself how did that go in ? :greengrin
Just watched the extended highlights. My tuppence worth is that Macey's positioning for the 1st wasn't ideal. He was drawn to the near post because there was a Motherwell guy in a threatening position. By doing that he left the far side of the goal woefully exposed.
Second goal, the cross was swung in from miles out and the guy headed it from around 8-10 yards out, albeit jumping from an angle. Keeper started to come and should have done so. The header itself looked saveable too.
Rocky should be back in for the semi final. Tough on Macey, but no room for sentiment at this stage. Rocky wouldn't have come for the cross, but he could well have saved both efforts.
I've seen variations of "Rocky should be back in for the semi final" a lot recently but it's a moot point as he won't be.Quote:
Originally Posted by superfurryhibby
We shall see, but probably not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibernian Verse
Still, doesn’t detract from the point that our keeper didn't cover himself in glory at either goal.
Rocky is our best keeper, in my view he should play in the forthcoming games.
He might. I’m not sure how cast iron him playing in every cup game was or was it that he would be given opportunity to play in the cups?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibernian Verse
Just saw the goals this morning. Can't blame Macey but it's very odd and a bit shocking to see a goalie not even attempt to save them. He just stood, resigned to the ball hitting the net. If he did that in a Scottish Cup final, I'd be raging.Quote:
Originally Posted by matty_f
I’d be showing him the angle from behind the goal and asking if that’s where he reckons a keeper should be positioned. If he says yeah then I’d be questioning his credentials. If he says no, which he will, then he will agree that the keeper has a part to play in that goal. Not the sole reason, but every bit as guilty as Stevenson for allowing the cross to come in, McGinn for allowing himself to get tagged by Cole, and Boyle for getting wrong side of Watt when he realised McGinn wasn’t getting out to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by matty_f
If you’re going to fail make it look spectacular.Quote:
Originally Posted by Onion
Not necessarily.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danderhall Hibs
This is more of a general point rather than a criticism of Macey but I’m sure many a great save has happened when the keeper probably thought they weren’t going to get it but still went for it just in case.
If we switch to Rocky for the cup games, Macey in the league games would make sense since we are riding on the cup for Europe now.
If we are seriously looking at keeping Macey on next season, he needs to play games
I find it a wee bit hard to put the first goal into the "unsaveable, there's nothing you can do when those go in against you bracket". It's a tidy finish, knocked into the right area but it's all bit slow to fully accept that there is no blame whatsoever that can be attached to the goalkeeper, even if just to say he might have wanted his string position to have been a foot or so to his left, or have seen the shot earlier and moved his body over that way with a view to diving and getting close to it. It's weird how the keeper and a few players just watch it go in and it's a bit slo-mo.
TBH the second looks worse from a defensive point of view. It's a good header but having seen Hibs put loads of good balls into the box that didn't lead to a goal in the first half down to our attacking movement not being up to scratch (as well as some excellent defending from Motherwell at times) I find it a bit hard to accept that we couldn't or shouldn't have done better for that one.
Neither is a howler where 100% of blame could be attributed to one player but at each you find yourself asking if any one of a few players might have done more to stop each goal?
He was anticipating the ball being put across the goal which IIRC he has done one other time since that cost a goal but can't remember who against. In the semi he wasn't helped by the 2 man wall parting like the Red Sea.Quote:
Originally Posted by BILLYHIBS
Look again and you will see Christie looking at the gap before firing it inQuote:
Originally Posted by 007
I was right behind the goal and could see it coming
The other time was O’Halloran St Johnstone at ER
Or maybe Morellos
He should have anticipated that.Quote:
Originally Posted by 007
I still think Rocky is the better keeper and if fit should be our keeper.
Big Kev has signed a 2 year extension. So its Macey or a new signing for the other berth.
Has Rocky had talks with other clubs, i'm hoping a cup final medal and Europe until xmas might sway him back to signing an extension? :pray:
To be honest, he is our first team keeper, and should play in the games we are desperate to win, but if he's off and Ross wants Macey, i can see why he'd want to sway him into signing too.
If i was manager, i think you have to think now, not next season, and it's Rocky for me for the semi and hopefully final.
I’ve wondered this too whether or not he may do U-turn and sign a new deal with us.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs
I think he was badly let down by his defence. As much as it may have been "saveable", the cross was also very much defendable and should have been cleared. The marking was horrific and I'd lay the blame squarely at the door of the defence before Macey for that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by superfurryhibby
The Macey goals got discussed on Richard Lee’s GK Union podcast. 7:30-12mins in. He almost always defends keepers so his comments about ‘not getting a dive away’ definitely suggests he’s in the ‘could have done better with it’ camp.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/0hE...UQ&dl_branch=1
Agreed but you missed a third error by Boyle in the lead up to this goal. He brought down the Well player but made no effort to prevent them taking a quick free kick. The purpose of a tactical foul is to slow your opponents attack and allow your defenders to get back and set properly - the quick free kick from Well meant we were still on the back foot when play restarted.Quote:
Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES
The first goal was a fluke and he could do nothing about it. The second goal not dwithstanding how we got into that vulnerable position was not a bullet header and he made no attempt to save it. Rocky would have been quick and agile enough to attempt to make a save.
That could have resulted in Boyle being sent off so can understand why he didn't do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalGreen
You think he would have got booked twice for the same incident? BehaveQuote:
Originally Posted by JimBHibees
Two points from me on this post - first is Bingo doesn’t have to be a coach to have an opinion on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovethehibs
Second - i spoke to a goalkeeper coach (who makes his moving from it) and they didn’t put any blame on Macey for either goal.
Absolutely. He was already being booked for the foul and the ref was letting them take it quickly, if Boyle stops that I’ve no doubt he’d have been sent off. Ref ended up a right tosser.Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalGreen
I've seen opponents do that to us countless times and can't remember a single example where they have been booked twice and sent off for the same incident.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibbysam
Yet interestingly Richard Lee, UEFA B License holder and ex Pro goalkeeper, did suggest a degree of blame in his podcast.Quote:
Originally Posted by matty_f
I think that just proves that even among the more informed/qualified opinion can be split. If every fan only commented on that which they were fully qualified to talk about people's interest in football would disappear pretty quickly.
Well in that case you’re clueless.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibbysam
He put the wall there to stop the need to dive. If Dylan stayed where he was, that goal doesn't happenQuote:
Originally Posted by SanFranHibs
Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
Out of interest, what were his observations on the keepers role in both goals?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
For me he was out of position for the first, too close to his near post.
For the second I thought he could have taken the cross and that he was flat footed when the header came in.
Of course we can also mention giving the ball away, defenders not challenging, marking, stopping* crosses etc.