To be fair to them, they are in an extremely difficult position.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibs0666
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To be fair to them, they are in an extremely difficult position.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibs0666
Apparently the potential new owners are just waiting to shake hands on a deal. No change there then.
Full statement -
Quote:
Administrators have revealed they wish to sell Rangers FC in the next few days amid a "perilous financial situation".
Duff and Phelps issued a statement on Wednesday as they battled to reach agreement with players over pay cuts.
David Whitehouse, Joint Administrator, said: "We are announcing today we are accelerating the sale of Rangers Football Club.
"The Club is in a perilous financial situation and that should not be under-estimated. Regrettably, we have been unable to agree cost-cutting measures with the playing staff on terms that will preserve value in the business. We understand the players' position as the scale of wage cuts required to achieve these savings without job losses were very substantial indeed.
"In view of this, we are faced with a situation of making redundancies within the playing staff on such a scale that would materially erode the value of the playing squad. We are striving to strike a balance where cost-cutting measures can be implemented but do not destroy the fabric of the playing squad to the extent that it will inhibit the prospect of a sale.
"However, no one should be in any doubt that in the absence of sufficient cost-cutting measures or receipt of substantial unplanned income, the Club will not be able to fulfil its fixtures throughout the remainder of the season.
"As a result, we are expediting the sale process and over the next few days we will be holding discussions with prospective purchasers who have declared their interest. The Manager, Ally McCoist will play an integral part in these discussions.
"If however it becomes apparent that the sale process cannot be accelerated there will be no choice but to implement very severe cost cutting measures at the Club."
In other words, if we can't agree a sale in the next few days, then liquidation WILL happen.
... or, to be cynical, if we don't do something here quickly, our fees are in jeopardy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smidge
Why would anyone want to buy them!?
Indeed. But they still have to go through that process, otherwise they're not doing their job properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by essexhibee
I reckon all potential purchasers will take the same stance "it's subject to the BTC going in our favour".... in which case, there can't be a deal..... unless that verdict comes very soon, and in RFC's favour.
I'm not sure what the criticisers wanted the clubs to say then. They haven't been asked to make a decision and no-one knows what the **** is going on at Rangers.Quote:
Originally Posted by PatHead
Away from St Mirren's comment, just read the Duff and Phelps statement - how can they sell the club without knowing the result of the 'big' tax case. If that goes as expected, wouldn't that just force them into administration again?
Administrators are top of the list when it comes to dividing up the money. They are paid no matter whatQuote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
To me it sounds like the squad are refusing to take pay cuts, meaning they'd have to lay most of them off, which obviously reduces the value of the club for a buyer.
This smacks of a put up or shut up offer to Murray / King / whoever else, as in buy the club now or most of the playing staff goes bye bye.
There's surely nobody in their right mind who would buy them by the end of the week!
Not if there's no cash, though :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by PatHead
They will already have taken a payment on account. In light of today's announcement, they will probably have taken some more today.
Like it very much.Quote:
Originally Posted by CallumLaidlaw
... that still leaves them open to legal action from those players.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottB
Okay, SPL experts needed here. If they can't fulfil their fixtures, as the statement suggests... is it as simple as a 3-0 defeat in every game, plus a fine? Or is it more complicated?
No one will buy that mob whilst there is £60m potentially due to HMRC. Only way they would be a viable purchase is without that debt and the only way that will happen is by liquidation.
Yep. :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Beefster
But surely that would be postponed till later?Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
What choice do they have at that point? Not enough money to make the end of the season, staff who won't accept a pay cut...
Would the players be put off pressing for legal action since paying those wages would liquidate the club and they'd get squat anyway?
But with about ZERO prospect of success:agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
We could talk about the Hertz :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Is this maybe a ploy, to make the players realise that ...in a couple of weeks... that's it, no money AT ALL. But, if they accept pay cuts now, there MIGHT still be a club to play for next season?Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottB
:confused:
shhhh... this thread is just a rehearsal for THAT little event. :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Aleksandr Orlov
I think the players were willing to take the required pay cuts but then wanted free transfers or slices of transfer fees in the summer. I think the Administrators' point is that agreeing to this (or making them all redundant) loses the club its main assets.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
:agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Presumably, but then most of these players, certainly the big earners will know that come the summer, they'll be at another club, maybe even earning more... Guess we shall see just how 'Rangers through and through' the likes of McGreggor are...Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
This is but the Confederations Cup compared to the full on World Cup that thread will be :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Well guys for the first time i actually think that Rangers are really going to pop.
Having re-read their statement, that makes sense too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefster
It's not over until the fat King on his white horse rides in.Quote:
Originally Posted by stokesmessiah
I will be taking a seat with the punters for that one. Cav has a much better handle on that situation than I , so I'll let him conduct the choir :flag:Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottB
There is a wonderful error on Sky Sports News just now stating that "rangers director Paul King states liquidation is inevitable'......seeing as that's my name it makes for some lovely viewing.
so basically.... they are looking for someone to come up with £30m within 48hrs
and also have sufficient funds at hand to pay a possible £70m tax bill.
seems easy enough :greengrin
It'll no be over till 'The Big Man' stands over the ruins and observes that 'The Big Hoose' is no more!:wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
.. and also someone that can cope with not having the proceeds of 25,000 season tickets every year for the next 3 or 4 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gingertosser
I thought Whyte was up for that personally and Ticketus had no claim on the football club for it?Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Or the takings from the pie stands...Mustn't forget about that :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Not if it's a going concern. If someone does buy the club as it is just now, they buy it with all its assets,liabilities, and contracts, including Ticketus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy74
If liquidation happens, that deal would fall and Craigy has to cough up.
I would like to register my interest in this great Scottish institution.
I will start the bidding with ....
1x Fifty Pence Coin
Wagon Wheel
Signed photograph of Ian Paisley
Yours Faithfully,
Blaikie
How old is the Wagon Wheel?Quote:
Originally Posted by blaikie
Just up on STV website, does not sound good for Rangers at all: -
Rangers' administrators say the club will not fulfil its remaining fixtures this season unless either a buyer is found imminently or drastic cuts are made to jobs.
Talks with the club's players over an agreement to cut salaries by up to 75% for the next three months have collapsed.
A desire from a number of the first team squad to have clauses inserted in their contracts, which would see them leave in the summer for free or for a "reasonable" price, is understood to have led to the impasse. A statement from co-administrator David Whitehouse said: "The club is in a perilous financial situation and that should not be under-estimated.
"Regrettably, we have been unable to agree cost-cutting measures with the playing staff on terms that will preserve value in the business.
"We understand the players' position as the scale of wage cuts required to achieve these savings without job losses were very substantial indeed.
"In view of this, we are faced with a situation of making redundancies within the playing staff on such a scale that would materially erode the value of the playing squad."
Whitehouse explained that while substantial savings needed to be made immediately, some value had to be retained within the squad to make it an attractive proposition for possible buyers.
However, the administrator warned that substantial cuts would be imposed if no other solution is found quickly.
"We are striving to strike a balance where cost-cutting measures can be implemented but do not destroy the fabric of the playing squad to the extent that it will inhibit the prospect of a sale," he said.
"However, no one should be in any doubt that in the absence of sufficient cost-cutting measures or receipt of substantial unplanned income, the club will not be able to fulfil its fixtures throughout the remainder of the season.
"As a result, we are expediting the sale process and over the next few days we will be holding discussions with prospective purchasers who have declared their interest.
"The manager, Ally McCoist will play an integral part in these discussions. If however it becomes apparent that the sale process cannot be accelerated there will be no choice but to implement very severe cost cutting measures at the club."
http://sport.stv.tv/football/scottis...-action-taken/
Well why don't the Administrators act and cut some of the deadwood from the playing staff?Quote:
Originally Posted by YehButNo But
Even as a going concern haven't Rangers said, and the guy's statement this morning also confirmed, that Rangers weren't actually part of this deal so couldn't be held to it?Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
They are in a very difficult position there.Quote:
Originally Posted by jgl07
If they do that, said players can sue for the remaining portion of their contract. A smart lawyer would apply to have funds in RFC ring-fenced (as Martin Bain, I think, did), pending the Court case. That would just get us back to the same position, if not worse.
or the coaching/scouting/admin/marketing/groundstaff etc. Know it would be like peeing against the wind but it would save some moneyQuote:
Originally Posted by jgl07
But Rangers got the cash... which was used to pay off Lloyds... so they were actually part of the deal. So someone...be it Ticketus or CW.... is entitled to get it back somehow, be that in cash or the sale of future season tickets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy74
He said that Whyte had claimed that Rangers had no liability to Ticketus but King also said that the administrators would need to confirm this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy74
To be fair, Whyte's been caught out lying about almost everything so this could easily turn out to be pish too.
As Capitan Jean-Luc Picard would say "Make it so!" :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Anybody know what would happen if they were liquidated before the big tax case?
Any offer for the club would be made conditional upon the outcome of the HMRC case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefster
And, if accepted on that basis, that would have the effect of placing more pressure on the HMRC decision.
Well my real name is Paul Clark :na na: (by the way...Rangers would have been dead & buried by now :greengrin)Quote:
Originally Posted by jodjam
Rangers are finito like.
Can't see that happening, TBH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elephant Stone
If they went into liquidation tomorrow, it would take a while to sell off the assets, by which time the BTC verdict would be in.
In any event, HMRC would put in claim to the liquidator to cover the BTC, on the basis of their original assessment. If they won the case, their claim would be processed like any other creditor. If they lost, their claim would be consequently reduced.
Which should have happened on day one! This has been a long drawn out farce.Quote:
Originally Posted by YehButNo But
Not so sure. CW got the cash and he paid Lloyds. I think Ticketus are entitled to believe they should get season tickets out of it but Rangers might well be able to blank them and point them towards CW. Ticketus appear to have been daft to deal with someone who wasn't Rangers at the time so they might well have to pursue CW over this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
That's just one guess from what I can make out of this though and I'll bet Rangers are trying to look at it this way!
Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough!!!!!! :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
I should state, it is not me who is rubber ducked, it is the guys I am rubber ducking:wink:
They don't do walking away :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by YehButNo But
Does this then mean that, if rangers did arrange paycuts, and played the rest of their fixtures, that they would have NO choice but to get rip of practically every high earning player in the club?
Nope. Can't agree. See any one of my many posts on this. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by blindsummit
I know mate, I just can't help myself. my desire to see them die screaming in agony is too strong :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Can't agree. Rangers got the benefit of the Ticketus cash, in that their overdraft was paid off. They are either due Ticketus that cash, or CW... in which case the whole spectre of CW's security looms again. AFAIK, the admins have rejected that possibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy74
Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Thought one of the elements of administration was the prevention of creditors being able to take court action and effectively create a preference for themselves?
*******... all you managed there was an increase in my blood pressure :top marksQuote:
Originally Posted by blindsummit
I know this has been asked before but I couldn't see an answer - when is the BTC verdict likely?Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Good point. But Amanda Jones was quite clear on this last night. Employment law doesn't stop applying just because there is an administration, and players would have the right to sue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibs Class
Whether they could have funds ring-fenced, though, as I suggested... not sure. But it does seem that Employment Law trumps most things here. Hence the stand-off over the past few days.
New statement coming out from Duffers and (Please)Helpus:
Our client will not play in Europe next year.
:faf::faf::faf:
Link:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17285309
Imagine what your blood pressure might do if they DO die! I know my heart might burst with the sheer joy of it :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Fuctifano :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by HibeeMG
I wish they'd bloody hurry up... it's the key to the whole thing, IMO.
It is imminent, but I have heard March, and I have heard April. The Tribunal will be taking their time, because they know the importance of their decision. Whatever they decide will have consequences far beyond Govan.
I think as far as Rangers are aware they got the benefit of cash from CW, doesn't matter to them where from and he chose to pay off Lloyds.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Isn't that just gone and paid though - why would CW be looking for that or entitled to that back now? Unless he paid it as a loan to the club who then paid Lloyds.
I think Ticketus are going to struggle with this one and if anything CW is on the line for it.
Edit: Administrators saying they are still looking into this.
Although we disagree on how we get there, I would agree that, in practice, it's unlikely that Ticketus will get anything from RFC. Even if their claim is admitted by the admins or a liquidator:-Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy74
1. there will be no CVA. Even if there was one, the dividend would be pennies.
2. if the club is sold on, the buyer would probably say "I don't want the Ticketus debt". If the admins agree to that, Ticketus get nowt.
3. in a liquidation, it's back to 1 above, although selling off the assets would probably increase the dividend.
Same as this year then.Quote:
Originally Posted by ancienthibby
Can you see the decision go in rangers favour? If it did would it not just mean every club in the uk would adopt the same scheme and start paying their players via ebt's? Or is it now a case of hmrc having proof that it happened on the way claimed?Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
So after 90 pages has a conclusion been drawn?! Does no one work around here!
Sent from the i****ter
One point about the Ticketus deal - on the face of it there is no debt due to them either by RFC or CW. Rangers/CW have sold Ticketus a commodity (future ticket sales) at an agreed price, and that price has been paid over. The fact that that commodity might now have no value is Ticketus' bad luck - that's what investment is all about. They may have a claim for misrepresentation (probably against CW) if there's no events to sell tickets for, but in theory at least there's no monetary debt at the moment. I can't see that prospective buyers can change that, they can only reduce the amount they are willing to pay for the club.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
On holiday :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Wembley67
Fair do's. Thanks for the honest answer! :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Yeah, I wish they'd hurry up also. Does anyone know how much notice we'd get of a decision being made? I might just book that day off! :wink:
Maybe..but if its liquidated then they have plenty to pay these debtsQuote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
HMRC will never back down on any perceived misuse of EBTs. They view the misuse of the scheme as a threat to the whole PAYE system.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibs13681
That is, as we see on here......FACT!
Apologies if this has already been answered, but can anyone tell me why the admins are still honouring the season tickets at Ibrox?
Surely if they had 50,000 paying fans each home game they would have enough new income to get by. :dunno:
the Admins are now wanting to sell ASAP - they must be mental....no one who is sane would take on a business that is technically insolvent with potential outstanding liabilities that are more than assets (its debatable whether these assets could be liquidated to anything near their book value)
Liquidation is several giant strides nearer.....and no home game for 2 1/2 weeks...so no cash income...
Celtic may not get to win league at Ibrox after all...:greengrin
Welcome back, Cav.... glad you're here to help me out... I'm faking like F here :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Caversham Green
Okay, I have been thinking about this scenario.
1. RFC sell their assets (not the shares) to a New Company. The players, the properties and the name.
2. The old company is liquidated, on the basis of those proceeds, the debts already established and, perhaps, the BTC.
As I see that, the team maintains their place in the SPL. The debts are dealt with, albeit only partly.
I must have missed something.... it seems too simple. Gratuitous alienation, or whatever it's called these days??
I think it's a goodwill thing to keep the fans on their side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wat Dabney
Surely then the admins are not doing their duty to the creditors? Seems a bit odd.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Would Motherwell get the extra champions league spot if they finish 3rd?
It does, I agree. But then perhaps they have looked at the legalities of it all. The ST holders have paid for the right to these games, and they probably would have a fair case for suing RFC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wat Dabney
They would get it, I reckon, if Hearts finished 3rd and Well 4th. As I interpret D & P's statement about Rangers, I can't see Hearts passing UEFA's criteria either.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaSaikouKujabi
Which brings us back to Ticketus - No?Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
You're doing a sterling job CWG, I've just been sitting back watching.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
I wonder if the ticket rights are for the current Rangers FC home games at Ibrox, the current Rangers FC games anywhere or any home games at Ibrox. The possibilities change with each different scenario.
I think there are three potential problems with the Newco solution -
1. There's no guarantee that they will get straight into the SPL, although Mr Doncaster sounds as if he's doing his best for them,
2. They definitely won't play in Europe for three years.
3. There are provisions for the debts of old companies to be carried over to phoenix companies, so it would depend on how the Newco was implemented.
Another solution that doesn't seem to have been considered much is for the interested parties to buy an existing club and change their name and location (like Airdrie did with Clydebank). There are at least two SPL clubs looking for a buyer at the moment and while it seems unlikely, it's probably no less so than RFC disappearing completely. I did mention this in jest as a possibility regarding one of those clubs a while back but right now all bets are off afaic.
Oh stop it.... I disappeared up that particular sphincter days ago. :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by CentreLine
Maybe ticketus already own 25% of this seasons tickets! It would have to be a lottery to see who gets chucked and who keeps their seat!! :hmmm:Quote:
Originally Posted by CentreLine
I've been thinking along those lines for a while. Doncaster also says there is no provision for letting newco enter SFL . How much to buy Berwick Rangers? The name's almost right as well:wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Caversham Green
As I understand it, they did pay for 25-30,000 season tickets this season. The original deal was for three years. RFC couldn't afford to pay Ticketus their share this season, so the deal was extended to 4 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wat Dabney
Explain. (25 marks) :na na:Quote:
Originally Posted by Caversham Green
They would have to stand in line with the other creditors, behind the secured creditors (if there are any).Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
We have had plenty of situations of footballclubs entering administration in Scotland: Airdrie, Motherwell, Livingston (twice), Dundee (twice?).
I can recall plenty of players getting binned (19 at Motherwell) and I can't remember any of the players getting anywhere with legal action beyond the payment via the CVA.
In the case of Motherwell, the main aim of administration was to get rid of a number of underperforming players brought in by Billy Davies on long term expensive contracts.
Yeah, I can agree with all that. I think I was trying to demonstrate that binning a player doesn't necessarily help the situation. It might cut immediate costs, but it just adds to the debt. And that, of course, doesn't help if you're trying to sell the club as a going concern.... one player down, and more debt in the company.Quote:
Originally Posted by jgl07
:hnetinq: I don't know the details, I'm just aware that where a Newco can be seen as a continuation of a liquidated Oldco there are provisions for some of the debts to be transferred.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
I won't get many marks for that will I?
As players contracts are with old Rangers(perhaps)any transfer of assets to a new company would presumably be,under employment law,a breach of contract allowing the players to walk-if they want.
Hmmmm... maybe a couple for identity, but F all for analysis. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Caversham Green
Who decides, though? Is it the admins, or the Courts, or would a creditor of the old company lodge an objection?
The suggestions seems to be 'Sell the club including the 'SPL franchise' and leave (most of) the debts behind'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caversham Green
The immediate question with that scenario, is why has that strategy not been employed before if it was that easy?
This has been covered already on this thread, together with a link to the HMRC statement on phoenix companies. It's the devil's own task trying to find it, though...Quote:
Originally Posted by Caversham Green
I think, as Cav said, that's because the SPL franchise wouldn't be guaranteed. And certainly European football would be out for 3 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by jgl07
However, the alternatives are, in theory, more attractive. The CVA route would avoid both of those. Selling the company as a going concern would avoid the European ban, I think, although the SPL place couldn't be guaranteed.
This wouldn't be a phoenix company, though, not in the way I understand it. Different directors, different shareholders, of a company buying the assets (and perhaps the debts) of another .Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
These are just weasel words from Doncaster. Sure, the SPL can't insist the SFL accept New-Co Huns but their league will be one short if there is promotion to, but no relegation from the SPL.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wat Dabney
Are they likely to turn down the income from the regurgitated Huns ? Not a chance, just hope they make them work their way up the leagues giving everyone an extra couple of paydays. Of course their stay downstairs could be extended if they were refused promotion a couple of times because of Sectarian singing etc. :greengrin
Do you have a lot ofLove and Pride for that club?Quote:
Originally Posted by jodjam
That reminds me of when Marsilles, then French champions and recently champions' league holders, were busted down to Division Two in France for irregular payments. They won promotion first time of asking but were busted down again when new allegations came to light. They never regained their dominance of French Football.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger