Scottish Independence

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

It's really annoying isn't it when someone posts an article etc and it's immediately dismissed as being from X or Y. Happens all the time when I post something, oh it's Alex Massie who writes the same article all the time, oh it's in The Times of London so why would I read that etc (although appreciate not you)

Why would testing kids at 15 cost more, why would sending them to school later cost more etc? Why not trial it now, that's perfectly within the gift of the SG with the powers we have now. Doesn't need Independence for a lot of the stuff to happen.

And you assume after Indy there is more money, not sure where this extra funding comes from. It's not a fixed budget when the Scottish Parliament has tax raising powers and the SNP have boasted about how higher income taxes etc increases their budget to spend on public services. It is a flexible budget but I do understand part of it is fixed but the SG has plenty of flexibility on what it spends it on (Again not the English Government doesn't exist)

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Here's what happens if scotland raises more tax

If Scotland increases income tax, the Scottish Government's block grant from the UK government will be adjusted to reflect the change.*Specifically,*the block grant will be reduced to account for the additional revenue Scotland will raise through its own income tax system.*This reduction is known as a Block Grant Adjustment (BGA).


Raises more money equals the same amount in the Scottish budget.

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Originally Posted by Andy Bee

And you're qualified to make that assumption or is it just an opinion of a self proclaimed loather of the SNP?

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What qualification would you need to point out that calling the UK government the English government is erroneous?

Scotland is governed by the UK Govt. If you can remember when Holyrood was first convened the regional councils, Lothian, Strathclyde etc were closed down. Holyrood is a rationalised version of that set-up although symbolically, and in some people's imaginations politically, it's a more powerful version. It probably has marginally more power than some of the mayor-ships in England.

It's a regional govt of the UK, which is ruled from London.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

What qualification would you need to point out that calling the UK government the English government is erroneous?

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An 'O' Grade in bull****tery, next question?

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

The current Labour govt can in no way be described as left of centre. So far they have only went after the old, disabled and poor while totally protecting the richest in society. And they are a year in so it’s a choice rather than timing.


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Not everyone has come to that conclusion yet, but in time they will.

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Originally Posted by Andy Bee

An 'O' Grade in bull****tery, next question?

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Stewart McDonald ex MP thinks its wrong and Pete Wishart MP said the colony stuff is nonsense and if he said it when canvassing he'd be laughed out the street.

I think the colony stuff is hugely offensive to the nations who actually were UK colonies. They wouldn't have multiple prime ministers from their nation, they wouldn't have representation in the UK parliament proportional to their population size, the wouldn't have devolved education, health, policing etc, they wouldn't have the opportunity to vote to leave the nation and then vote to stay in a fair election.

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Originally Posted by Kato

Scotland is governed by the UK Govt. If you can remember when Holyrood was first convened the regional councils, Lothian, Strathclyde etc were closed down. Holyrood is a rationalised version of that set-up although symbolically, and in some people's imaginations politically, it's a more powerful version. It probably has marginally more power than some of the mayor-ships in England.

It's a regional govt of the UK, which is ruled from London.

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Nah Scottish Government has control of education, health, housing, transport and policing I'd say that is some of the most important areas to Scots. The comparison to mayorships is wide of the mark.

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Originally Posted by Kato

Scotland is governed by the UK Govt. If you can remember when Holyrood was first convened the regional councils, Lothian, Strathclyde etc were closed down. Holyrood is a rationalised version of that set-up although symbolically, and in some people's imaginations politically, it's a more powerful version. It probably has marginally more power than some of the mayor-ships in England.

It's a regional govt of the UK, which is ruled from London.

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The Scottish Parliament is one of the most powerful devolved parliaments in the world. It has extensive powers over areas like health, education, justice, and significant control over taxation and welfare— way more than Wales or Northern Ireland and many other devolved legislatures globally. I am sure there are more powerful devolved parliaments but not many.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Stewart McDonald ex MP thinks its wrong and Pete Wishart MP said the colony stuff is nonsense and if he said it when canvassing he'd be laughed out the street.

I think the colony stuff is hugely offensive to the nations who actually were UK colonies. They wouldn't have multiple prime ministers from their nation, they wouldn't have representation in the UK parliament proportional to their population size, the wouldn't have devolved education, health, policing etc, they wouldn't have the opportunity to vote to leave the nation and then vote to stay in a fair election.

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It is laughable as it's certainly not the lived experience of the people of Scotland. They don't wake up thinking about how to break free of their colonial status each morning. It's something though that's more attractive to the extreme element hence why it's being promoted by the likes of Craig Murray and Tommy Sheridan.

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

It is laughable as it's certainly not the lived experience of the people of Scotland. They don't wake up thinking about how to break free of their colonial status each morning. It's something though that's more attractive to the extreme element hence why it's being promoted by the likes of Craig Murray and Tommy Sheridan.

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45% is an "extreme element?"

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

The Scottish Parliament is one of the most powerful devolved parliaments in the world. It has extensive powers over areas like health, education, justice, and significant control over taxation and welfare— way more than Wales or Northern Ireland and many other devolved legislatures globally. I am sure there are more powerful devolved parliaments but not many.

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All the US states, Australian states, Canadian provinces and German states have more power than the Scottish government. The UK is one of the most centralised democracies in the world.


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Originally Posted by Kato

45% is an "extreme element?"

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45% don't think Scotland is a colony?

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

All the US states, Australian states, Canadian provinces and German states have more power than the Scottish government. The UK is one of the most centralised democracies in the world.


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I did say 'devolved' parliaments, in some of those cases their powers are protected by the Constitution.

While German states have some exclusive powers, but most big policy areas are shared with the federal government, while Scotland has clearer control in devolved areas like health, education, and justice so I would say it is more powerful.

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

I did say 'devolved' parliaments, in some of those cases their powers are protected by the Constitution.

While German states have some exclusive powers, but most big policy areas are shared with the federal government, while Scotland has clearer control in devolved areas like health, education, and justice so I would say it is more powerful.

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If you’re not raising the tax yourself then there is no power. Just spending authority. All of those parliaments have wide tax raising power. The SG has the ability to vary income tax and that’s about it.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

If you’re not raising the tax yourself then there is no power. Just spending authority. All of those parliaments have wide tax raising power. The SG has the ability to vary income tax and that’s about it.


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Income tax is devolved as is Land and Buildings Transaction Tax (why can't it just be called Stamp Duty) there is also Air Departure tax and I believe the landfill tax is devolved as well. And of course a new tax could be proposed and agreed as well if required.

I understand it's not what you want but that's then up to the Indy side to put forward proposals for change.

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

Income tax is devolved as is Land and Buildings Transaction Tax (why can't it just be called Stamp Duty) there is also Air Departure tax and I believe the landfill tax is devolved as well. And of course a new tax could be proposed and agreed as well if required.

I understand it's not what you want but that's then up to the Indy side to put forward proposals for change.

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And, as pointed out, every penny raised in Scotland by taxation is a penny removed from the money the government in England givesbacktoScotland. So the Scottish budget remains the same.

The only way taxation in Scotland can be increased and be effective is if Scotland was independent. Even little Iceland has more control.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

And, as pointed out, every penny raised in Scotland by taxation is a penny removed from the money the government in England givesbacktoScotland. So the Scottish budget remains the same.

The only way taxation in Scotland can be increased and be effective is if Scotland was independent. Even little Iceland has more control.

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Makes you wonder what's the point of having any Scottish taxes at all then? But you miss the crucial point that if tax revenue rises faster than the rest of the UK Scotland keeps the extra amount. Otherwise there is little point raising taxes in Scotland. Why do you think income tax is devolved then, just for show?

Here is an explanation, happy to help.

If Scottish tax revenues grow faster than the rest of the UK, the Scottish Government keeps the difference. The Block Grant Adjustment (BGA) reduces the block grant by an amount based on tax revenues in the rest of the UK, so if Scotland raises more tax than expected or grows faster, its total budget is better off by that extra revenue. Conversely, if Scottish revenues grow slower, the budget is smaller, so the system shares risk but rewards Scotland for stronger tax performance.

If what you suggested was true there would be no point in any kind of tax raising powers in Scotland.

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

The Scottish Parliament is one of the most powerful devolved parliaments in the world. It has extensive powers over areas like health, education, justice, and significant control over taxation and welfare— way more than Wales or Northern Ireland and many other devolved legislatures globally. I am sure there are more powerful devolved parliaments but not many.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Nah Scottish Government has control of education, health, housing, transport and policing I'd say that is some of the most important areas to Scots. The comparison to mayorships is wide of the mark.

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At least you two are agreeing on something.

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

45% don't think Scotland is a colony?

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I never argued that it is. I said above its part of the UK.


There is a large part of The Scottish population feel it is and a large part of The UK establishment think it is too.

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Originally Posted by Kato

I never argued that it is. I said above its part of the UK.


There is a large part of The Scottish population feel it is and a large part of The UK establishment think it is too.

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What's your evidence for a large part of the Scottish population thinking Scotland is a colony? And I mean actual evidence for the colony part, not just they support Independence. We have Indy supporters on here who think the colony chat is a load of rubbish.

As far as I know there are no polls or research that has sought public opinion on if Scotland is a colony or not? It may exist but I haven't seen it.

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

What's your evidence for a large part of the Scottish population thinking Scotland is a colony? And I mean actual evidence for the colony part, not just they support Independence. We have Indy supporters on here who think the colony chat is a load of rubbish.

As far as I know there are no polls or research that has sought public opinion on if Scotland is a colony or not?

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Anecdotal

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

Income tax is devolved as is Land and Buildings Transaction Tax (why can't it just be called Stamp Duty) there is also Air Departure tax and I believe the landfill tax is devolved as well. And of course a new tax could be proposed and agreed as well if required.

I understand it's not what you want but that's then up to the Indy side to put forward proposals for change.

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Income tax is not devolved. There are some variance powers of about 1%.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Income tax is not devolved. There are some variance powers of about 1%.


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Higher rate tax in England is 40% at the threshold of £50,271. Higher rate tax in Scotland is 42% on threshold of £43,633 so 1% cannot be true.

I think the rules where it has to be within a certain % no longer apply, the SG could set whatever rate it wants.

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Originally Posted by Andy Bee

And you're qualified to make that assumption or is it just an opinion of a self proclaimed loather of the SNP?

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What assumption? That we have the UK Parliament (including 57 Scottish MPs), the UK Government and devolved administrations in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland (with a savvy Alex Salmond engineering a name change from the Scottish Executive to the Scottish Government to dilute the 'pretendy wee parliament' claims)? That's our system of government. Those are the facts, not assumptions, and my loathing of the SNP is neither here nor there in that regard.

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Originally Posted by Kato

At least you two are agreeing on something.

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Probably because its fairly ludicrous to say Holyrood has no power. It just gives the SNP the get out of jail of don't blame us for the most important things like, education or health, blame the English

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Probably because its fairly ludicrous to say Holyrood has no power. It just gives the SNP the get out of jail of don't blame us for the most important things like, education or health, blame the English

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I didn't say Holyrood has no power.

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

Higher rate tax in England is 40% at the threshold of £50,271. Higher rate tax in Scotland is 42% on threshold of £43,633 so 1% cannot be true.

I think the rules where it has to be within a certain % no longer apply, the SG could set whatever rate it wants.

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If you only have control of one tax then it reduces your room for manoeuvre.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

If you only have control of one tax then it reduces your room for manoeuvre.


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You started out saying income tax was restricted to 1%, that was wrong and now you are saying it's a single tax when I already listed more devolved taxes above like the Building and Lands Transactions Tax.....so wrong again.

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

The Scottish Parliament is one of the most powerful devolved parliaments in the world. It has extensive powers over areas like health, education, justice, and significant control over taxation and welfare— way more than Wales or Northern Ireland and many other devolved legislatures globally. I am sure there are more powerful devolved parliaments but not many.

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*FACTCHECKER*

The Faroe Islands are probably the most powerful devolved Parliament in the world, 55,000 people only, you wonder how they cope? very well indeed. Interestingly another Government with more powers than Scotland is also in the UK with The Isle of Man, they control all taxes, funny that. There's other English Islands with similar powers. If a devolved government doesn't have full fiscal autonomy like Scotland it has no real power at all, add to that not being allowed our own immigration system, not being allowed to get involved in energy generation when we're awash with resources, our legal system being superseded by Blairs Supreme Court. As mentioned the Scottish Parliament was originally named The Scottish Executive but the name was changed, yup a Parliaments name was changed, apparently you can do that, claims of it being a glorified council aren't that far off the mark.

I keep seeing NHS getting mentioned and yes the SG has control over it but it receives its spending based on a percentage of what the English NHS spends. What happens as is the case when it's cheaper to run the English NHS than the Scottish NHS due to demographics? It's far cheaper to run a trust in built up areas like London or Birmingham over trying to run rural trusts in Scotland but it's assumed a set % is the correct way, that's a race to the bottom isn't it?

Does Scotland not get about 30% more per head to spend than England due to Barnett, surely quite a lot of wiggle room to do what you want

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Does Scotland not get about 30% more per head to spend than England due to Barnett, surely quite a lot of wiggle room to do what you want

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I've no idea what the true figures are, there's that many claims and counter claims I've given up trying but the fact remains some of those Barnett consequentials are calculated as a percentage of what the English NHS spends.

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Originally Posted by Andy Bee

*FACTCHECKER*

The Faroe Islands are probably the most powerful devolved Parliament in the world, 55,000 people only, you wonder how they cope? very well indeed. Interestingly another Government with more powers than Scotland is also in the UK with The Isle of Man, they control all taxes, funny that. There's other English Islands with similar powers.

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Add in the Channel Isles and the City of London when it comes to tax laws.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Does Scotland not get about 30% more per head to spend than England due to Barnett, surely quite a lot of wiggle room to do what you want

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About 13% but our tax contribution is also above the UK average.


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The Barnet Formula includes an element to take into account the remote and rural areas of Scotland.

A stark example of this is the largest GP Practice in Scotland, by area, covers approximately 500 square miles. It's up the north west way. The scenery is awesome!

London covers approximately 600 square miles and has around 1,500 GP Practices 😆

It obviously covers other public services as well.

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Originally Posted by Andy Bee

*FACTCHECKER*

The Faroe Islands are probably the most powerful devolved Parliament in the world, 55,000 people only, you wonder how they cope? very well indeed. Interestingly another Government with more powers than Scotland is also in the UK with The Isle of Man, they control all taxes, funny that. There's other English Islands with similar powers. If a devolved government doesn't have full fiscal autonomy like Scotland it has no real power at all, add to that not being allowed our own immigration system, not being allowed to get involved in energy generation when we're awash with resources, our legal system being superseded by Blairs Supreme Court. As mentioned the Scottish Parliament was originally named The Scottish Executive but the name was changed, yup a Parliaments name was changed, apparently you can do that, claims of it being a glorified council aren't that far off the mark.

I keep seeing NHS getting mentioned and yes the SG has control over it but it receives its spending based on a percentage of what the English NHS spends. What happens as is the case when it's cheaper to run the English NHS than the Scottish NHS due to demographics? It's far cheaper to run a trust in built up areas like London or Birmingham over trying to run rural trusts in Scotland but it's assumed a set % is the correct way, that's a race to the bottom isn't it?

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If Scotland had a population of 55,000 we could be just like the Faroe Islands!

It doesn't really matter if it's Denmark, Norway or whoever it's a very simplicist argument to make that just because X or Y is successful then that means we will as well. It has taken centuries for these places to be what they are.

But a plan of how Scotland in 2025 can be like Denmark for example would likely help, but I see anybody offering anything like that.

We could be like Denmark and raise the retirement age to 70 (in 2040) which will be the highest in Europe, no thanks to that.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

About 13% but our tax contribution is also above the UK average.


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We apparently get 10.4% more than we bring in from tax. Its about £2000 more per head spent than England

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

If Scotland had a population of 55,000 we could be just like the Faroe Islands!

It doesn't really matter if it's Denmark, Norway or whoever it's a very simplicist argument to make that just because X or Y is successful then that means we will as well. It has taken centuries for these places to be what they are.

But a plan of how Scotland in 2025 can be like Denmark for example would likely help, but I see nobody offering anything like that.

We could be like Denmark and raise the retirement age to 70 (in 2040) which will be the highest in Europe, no thanks to that.

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What like cutting edge infrastructure like their tunnels connecting all their islands? yup yes please.

You haven't read any of Commonweals policies yet have you because that's an example of one group who have exactly done that. I agree though, a constitutional convention is needed, something the SNP agreed to in 2020.

We could be like Switzerland in that regard where the population are asked to vote on policy changes as important as raising the pension, if the population don't want it they don't get it. It's called direct democracy.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

We apparently get 10.4% more than we bring in from tax. Its about £2000 more per head spent than England

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There's a rabbit hole there on how much exactly Scotland generates in tax and how much it would generate when Independent. I frequently see crazy numbers from both sides of the divide.

The way I look at all the revenue debates is…

You can work in a boring office job all day, get your wages, buy a house and get a pension. You can watch your boss make more money and have a nice life whilst you slave away.

Some people aspire to take control of their own destiny and put the work in to make it happen. Or you sit and take the easy life and take what you’re given by your employer.

I know what a chose in life and I know what I want Scotland to choose.

If you like Ireland, they’re hardly struggling and yet have a fraction of our resources.

So yeah there might be a thousand statistics about tax and income etc but I personally believe Scotland has the potential to thrive and not just survive and there’s plenty of evidence to support that.

Seems a bit unfair that people in Scotland get and extra 10-11% spent on them than other areas.

Wouldn't it be fairer to have a single tax system across all the UK's territories and Crown dependencies? That way everyone in the UK, the Channel Isles, the Isle of Man, the City of London, Anguilla, Bermuda, British Indian Ocean Territory, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, Montserrat, Pitcairn, Henderson, Ducie and Oeno Islands, Saint Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands can come under the auspices of HMRC. Do away with the tricksy offshore Shell companies, trusts, tax wheezes etc etc etc etc while we're at it.

It would take a bit of auditing, especially the City of London and those Magic Islands with Magic Banks, but it seems to me the country would be better off.

Saying you'd probably get knocked off for suggesting it.

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Originally Posted by Kato

Seems a bit unfair that people in Scotland get and extra 10-11% spent on them than other areas.

Wouldn't it be fairer to have a single tax system across all the UK's territories and Crown dependencies? That way everyone in the UK, the Channel Isles, the Isle of Man, the City of London, Anguilla, Bermuda, British Indian Ocean Territory, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, Montserrat, Pitcairn, Henderson, Ducie and Oeno Islands, Saint Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands can come under the auspices of HMRC. Do away with the tricksy offshore Shell companies, trusts, tax wheezes etc etc etc etc while we're at it.

It would take a bit of auditing, especially the City of London and those Magic Islands with Magic Banks, but it seems to me the country would be better off.

Saying you'd probably get knocked off for suggesting it.

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You'll get Corbynated the same as me for suggesting a maximum wage. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by Hibs4185

The way I look at all the revenue debates is…

You can work in a boring office job all day, get your wages, buy a house and get a pension. You can watch your boss make more money and have a nice life whilst you slave away.

Some people aspire to take control of their own destiny and put the work in to make it happen. Or you sit and take the easy life and take what you’re given by your employer.

I know what a chose in life and I know what I want Scotland to choose.

If you like Ireland, they’re hardly struggling and yet have a fraction of our resources.

So yeah there might be a thousand statistics about tax and income etc but I personally believe Scotland has the potential to thrive and not just survive and there’s plenty of evidence to support that.

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Aren't bosses generally paid more than their employees? My boss is a higher grade than me so gets paid more, but he has a number of failed marriages and it costs him a fortune so I would definitely say I have "nicer life" despite him getting a higher salary than me. But I am really not sure what point you are making with that tale or story?

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Originally Posted by Kato

Seems a bit unfair that people in Scotland get and extra 10-11% spent on them than other areas.

Wouldn't it be fairer to have a single tax system across all the UK's territories and Crown dependencies? That way everyone in the UK, the Channel Isles, the Isle of Man, the City of London, Anguilla, Bermuda, British Indian Ocean Territory, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, Montserrat, Pitcairn, Henderson, Ducie and Oeno Islands, Saint Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands can come under the auspices of HMRC. Do away with the tricksy offshore Shell companies, trusts, tax wheezes etc etc etc etc while we're at it.

It would take a bit of auditing, especially the City of London and those Magic Islands with Magic Banks, but it seems to me the country would be better off.

Saying you'd probably get knocked off for suggesting it.

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Centralising everything in London? Fantastic.[emoji106][emoji849]


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Originally Posted by Andy Bee

You'll get Corbynated the same as me for suggesting a maximum wage. :greengrin

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Maybe.

Depends on how you couch the language.

When that Brexit thing was happening and all the Brexi-twats were shouting at people if you spoke in favour of "sending money abroad" to the EU, those people were labelled as "unpatriotic". Tax evasion/avoidance (same thing, just some laws invented by the monetrists in the last 40 years is the difference) seems highly unpatriotic in light of that, maybe the most unpatriotic thing of all given its K-Chuck who collects it. Also when you consider its somewhere between hundreds of billions to several trillions of pounds (no one knows, cos its a secret not available to the British people, an audit would help), that's some heist.

What would be better than all of King Sausage-Fingers subjects to be taxed along exactly the same lines, including him.

As the Tories said (lied) in 2010 "we are all in this together", before they whipped the carpet from under all those who weren't rich already. Surely the Tories, and the right wingers on here, can see the sense in a patriotic tax system along the lines of that slogan (that they lied about) and make up for austerity - in a patriotic manner.

The subsequent investment available in the UK would solve a multitude of problems and probably put Indy to bed. Great British pariotism right there.

The rich would still stay rich, just not obscenely so to the detriment of the rest of Great Britain, speaking patriotically.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Centralising everything in London? Fantastic.[emoji106][emoji849]


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Mate, there isn't a rats chance it'll happen.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Centralising everything in London? Fantastic.[emoji106][emoji849]


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Also.

That wouldn't necessarily have to be the case given the amount or what needs done in this country.

Norway have £1.8Tr sitting there belonging to all of there people. In the same time we've allowed a cash grab of trillions belonging to a couple of thousand people.

The investement would solve practically every financial problem discussed on here.



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