http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...uction.html?fb
hopefully if we're to get relegated then they'll be hit with this
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...uction.html?fb
hopefully if we're to get relegated then they'll be hit with this
The Rangers going tits-up again would certainly help our chances of bouncing back up at the first time of asking. If they survive this latest financial crisis, it looks as if it might be us and the Jambos playing-off for promotion. Hopefully our new look admin team can get us in the position where we can seriously challenge for promotion. Better still, it would be great if the newly announced shot in the arm might just gee us up enough to crawl over the finishing line this season without penalty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergus52
Phil MacGiollaBhain (@Pmacgiollabhain)
30/04/2014 16:07
From an excellent source: Communications between Graham Wallace and the SFA are "frantic".
I wonder how much Queen of the South spent last year when they won the league Rangers are in at a canter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Springbank
any full time team should in theory walk the bottom two leagues and by the time you get to the Championship you spend a bit extra on some experience to get you up to the SPL
Phil MacGiollaBhain (@Pmacgiollabhain)
30/04/2014 17:58
An excellent source inside Stalag Sevco just painted a picture of utter chaos when asked by me to describe the current state of play.
Maybe he wants their current supporters replaced by decent human beings?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seveno
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paperboy
From the Scotsman....
"Queen of the South won Scotland’s third tier and the Ramsdens Cup last year with a £650,000 football budget. With ten times the outlay this season, Rangers could not even do that double."
So they'll be up to their knees in five pound notes, then they will surrender and they'll die?Quote:
Originally Posted by South Sub
Brilliant!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Alf
Will love it if their insistence on being the same club causes a 25 point penalty instead of just 15...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergus52
Unless they do it this week. Then it won't make much difference as they are 30 odd points in front.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottB
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
That would make the most sense. They could then finally get rid of Super Swally and his overpaid signings, without any pay-offs, and still avoid a points deduction.
It's so sensible that it's never going to happen.
Those would all be football debts so would still be payable.Quote:
Originally Posted by keekaboo
I suspect it's some of the commercial contracts that were signed by Green that they would like to get out of.
:not worthQuote:
Originally Posted by delbert
Dont think they would be football debts, it's only debts incurred out of admin that would be classed as football debts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Money due to players under the term of their contracts is classed as football debt. I'm not sure about the coaching staff, although I suspect that they are as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by HFCDaveA
Ah but this is where the SFA have tied themselves in knots.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottB
A Club cannot go into Administration only a Company can. The Company in this case is Sevco, which is a brand new Company.
By pretending that you can transfer history and this is the same Club - even though that Club was a part of the Company that went bust - they should by rights only get a 15 point penalty.
Rangers are in the third tier because they're a new Club. Pure & simple. A 15 point penalty should confirm this.
However no-one would expect the SFA to be unable to find a away to get round this.:greengrin
The SPFL rules are quite clear:-Quote:
Originally Posted by Cropley10
"Where a Club, whether owned and operated by the same or a different Member,suffers or is subject to an Insolvency Event which results in a deduction of points in terms of these Rules and within 5 years of the date of such Insolvency Event suffers or is subject to a further Insolvency Event which is not part of the same Insolvency Process as the Insolvency Event then suffered, the points deduction applicable in terms of Rules E1 in respect of that second or further Insolvency Event, shall be 25 points with the 15 points in Rules E2 and E3 being 25 Points."
Definitely 25 points :)
So Hearts start next season on -15 and Rangers on - 25. Excellent we can go down now and be certs to come straight back up! :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Dont go there ! I would much rather we did not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberal Hibby
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
My understanding was that any debts present at the point of Administration would be eligible but that the Administrators would then be able to cancel contracts once in Administration.
As far as I'm aware, that is a legitimate part of the Administration process and does not actually create any new debt.
No lets not tempt fate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberal Hibby
That sounds like -15 to me, if the alternative is that I accept they are the same club. Oldco died, which is why the rangers as a new club were allowed to enter the bottom league.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Read the bit I underlined. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibs Class
Sevco own the club now. They bought that for £5 from RFC. Same club, different owner.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27251815
Imran Ahmed is not going to be popular down Govan way.
I wonder if Sevco F C will try and argue that the ring fencing is unnecessary as they have plenty of money in the kitty.
Who owned the club then before Sevco?Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
Charlea Green bought the assets of the club from Rangers and a phoenix club was born!
RFC owned it. And they sold it to Sevco for £5.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nutmegged
That's my point. The rules are clear. It doesn't matter that they have had 2 different owners. It would be the second insolvency event involving the club. Therefore it would be a 25 point penalty.
Might just be the camel that breaks the Bears' back.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
Signing out now. On the night flight to Delhi then the hippie wagon to Kathmandu.
Play nice when I'm away kids :-)
When I was in Kathmandu, I got into a drunken stupa.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
namaste.Trekking in Nepal is one of those Life Changing Experiences .Took some Hibs tops to a school about 13,000 feet into the Annapurna range and played footie with them .might look out the prayer flag they gave me and see it it brings good Karma for tomorrow for the Hibees.:flag:Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenLake
But you cannot leave just when it's getting interesting ?.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
I wish I could have gone up into the mountains on foot, must have been a brilliant trip. I'll have a look for the singing bowl and give it a wee scour before kick off. :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronniekirk
Not sure that's right. as long as rangers have been paying their wages up to admin there will be no debt, they can then cancel the contracts.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
It wasn't a take over though, it wasnt a business swooping in and juat buying a business, the CVA was rejected and Rangers as we know them went bust, Green then bought the assets from.Rangers and formed the phoenix club that stands before us today.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
More stories of snouts in the trough...
Graham Wallace's salary = 315k
Potential bonuses for hitting unspecified targets = 315k
Car allowance = 15k
+ among other things, free private healthcare for him and his family.
Not bad work, if you can get it.
What do people like this actually do to justify that sort of remuneration? Still, if it helps take them down the tubes again, all the better.Quote:
Originally Posted by keekaboo
In other words, Sally's salary alone was bigger than QoS entire football budget.Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Alf
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27251815
Imran Ahmed could become a legend if he succeeds in getting 620k frozen in his court case and it tips them into admin :greengrin
Quote:
Originally Posted by down-the-slope
Then he would be nobody's " Paki-friend ". :greengrin
Union of Fan(nie)s to go ahead with threat to withhold Season Ticket money. They claim only 2,000 Season Tickets have been bought so far.
They have also said, after his salary and bonus were revealed, that Graham Wallace's position is 'untenable' and that he should go.
-------------------------
On another note, is it just the same kind of co-incidence that causes the Blue Order to sound suspicously like the Orange Order and the Green Brigade to sound like the Old Brigade that, on seeing the acronym UoF, I immediately think of UVF?
I'm sure these things are all completely unintentional and that I'm just a suspicous old cynic.
Grant Russell @STVGrant 3m Imran Ahmad has, for the second time, lost his case to have £620,000 arrested from Rangers ahead of his case alleging unpaid bonusesQuote:
Originally Posted by down-the-slope
Statement from RIFCQuote:
Originally Posted by keekaboo
Quote:
"The Board of Rangers note with dismay the launch of the 'Ibrox 1972 fund' led by Dave King and Richard Gough.
"Attempting to create a fund that wishes to deprive revenue to the football club these men purport to love so much and create financial difficulty for Rangers, displays a twisted logic.
"For the avoidance of doubt and so that all Rangers fans are again reassured, the Board has stated that it has no intention of granting security over Ibrox to anybody. We have already shown in our actions - and not words - that our stadium is sacrosanct.
"Any supporters considering engaging with Ibrox 1972 Ltd should be clear that as the Club will not grant security over Ibrox to any such organisation, there is no prospect that any commitment to this new scheme will ever come to fruition and is therefore entirely meaningless. Nor will the Board enter into any agreement with a third party organisation on season ticket renewals, as is being suggested.
"Therefore this scheme is a worthless academic exercise created to serve the purposes of individuals and not the greater good of Rangers Football Club. It could never deliver the stability and security this football club and our supporters deserve.
"It is also important to note that should existing season ticket holders choose not to renew by the 16th May deadline, as is being encouraged, they could lose their seat allocation. The Club believes it must - as it always does at this time of the year - attempt to satisfy the requests we have received from current season ticket holders who wish to relocate to other available seats around the stadium.
"The absurd attacks made by individuals associated with this new scheme on Chief Executive Graham Wallace are disgraceful. Since Mr Wallace joined the Club he has worked tirelessly to create a Rangers fit for the future.
"Mr Wallace has brought his considerable business experience together with his extensive knowledge of top-level football operations and impeccable reputation to the Club and we continue to see the benefits of his work. To question his integrity, ability or professionalism as a means to discredit him personally and to undermine the Board generally is absolutely unacceptable.
"Mr Wallace has the Board's unequivocal support.
"We are only too aware that our incredibly loyal supporters have been through remarkably testing times in recent years, but Rangers has made significant progress in recent months, both on and off the field.
"A bright future awaits and we would respectfully ask our fans to support the Club and renew their season tickets. Season ticket sales are the largest single source of income for Rangers and only the Club and the team will suffer if some of this income is withheld.
"Any decision not to renew season tickets can only damage the Club. Such action would only serve to harm the very institution that is so dear to all of us."
Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
Shame.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
He's got to appeal that, Shirley ;-)
I'd say that 2000 season ticket sales so far is good going for a club in the second tier.Quote:
Originally Posted by keekaboo
Not when they expect to sell 40 k and are nearly broke. How is Mr Wallace and Mr Khan going to get their well deserved bonus's if the fans do not buy ST's. The new comedy saga and THIS one could bring a few laughs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyrie
Dave King declares war. He's trying to force Der Hun into admin. They are not going to sign away security on their own stadium like this and he knows it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyrie
Woooosh ...Quote:
Originally Posted by southsider
It'll give us something to smile about this summer.Quote:
Originally Posted by jacomoseven
Phil MacGiollaBhain @Pmacgiollabhain 6m
Major decision time looming for Sevco.
Big meeting planned for later this week on whether or not to utilise the shareholder option.
looks like it's getting interesting again.... :cb
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Alf
What's the 'shareholder option'?
Something to do with current shareholders buying up a further £43m pounds of shares to offset low season ticket sales.Quote:
Originally Posted by keekaboo
I'm sure a .net financial whizz kid will be along shortly to explain.
It sounds like a Rights Issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Mandela
Basically all existing shareholders buy more shares in the same ratio as they already hold.
....otherwise known as throwing good money after badQuote:
Originally Posted by Weststandwanab
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Mandela
Thanks.
I do remember some discussion previously about giving existing shareholders the opportunity to buy a new batch of shares at way below market price, possibly 1p per share. That would be an awful amount of shares to release.
You may well be correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hackett
If they go down that road when you see how many existing shareholders take up the option then you will assess how good after the bad it really is.
Another fun summer in store.............
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/sha...on-authorised/
Could be good news for the poppy thieves, if they come out of admin. in time. :jamboak:Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Mandela
GGTTH
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Mandela
Funnily enough, the MSM know about this but have failed to report it.
We've had enough of our own grief to worry about, but what news from the Rialto? The MSM have been strangely quiet on this for a couple of weeks with even The Herald's Richard Wilson not breaking wind.
That article says the £43 million raised would cover 4 months running costs! How the hell are they needing £11 million a month to run a first div club...crazy... Serves them right if they go under again and I hope they do as I despise them as a club
The article does not say the shares will be a pound each. No way they could raise £43m in a share issue. They would be doing well to raise £5m.Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Reaper
Duh! I should read things more carefully before commenting........ Still despise them though!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Reaper
Leaving aside your arithmetic ;-)...
.. what article were you referring to? Do you have a link?
As posted above by Spike:Quote:
Originally Posted by keekaboo
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/share-option-authorised/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Reaper
Thanks.
Establishment corrupt to the core imo.......
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-28231598
They should be removed from the Championship and they should give us a bye in the diddy cup :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Spike Mandela
Time for Hibs to contact the porn-star tax advisor and investigate the use of this tax avoidance scheme.Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHFC
Cant say i give a toss about Rangers or David Murray but am annoyed at how much public money HMRC have frittered away chasing this phantom debt.
But It really is time to move on.
That's exactly what the establishment want. Everything swept under the carpet, lots of wealthy individuals protected and made richer. Nice few 'loans' that will never be paid back, several titles won with money they avoided paying to the public purse.Job Done!Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyM_1875
No doubt all the missing EBT documentation in the same shredder as the 114 missing files relating to paedophilia scandal at Westminster.
The UK establishment really takes us for a bunch of mugs.
Yet we all take itQuote:
Originally Posted by Spike Mandela
HMRC were never chasing the debt. Even if they had won this case, they would have got very little.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyM_1875
It was always about establishing a precedent to enable them to pursue other clubs who operated the same schemes and who do have money.
I'm not sure what you mean by the establishment?Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Mandela
HMRC fought against an agressive avoidance scheme and took MIH to court twice to try to secure money (through other EBT cases) for the UK taxpayer.
Has the EBT 'loophole' been closed or are other clubs free to use it? If not closed then it is something Hibs should look into.
It was closed some years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop Hibee
Yep I know that. Similar schemes were operated by several current English Premiership & Championship clubs.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
However chucking more money at this Rangers thing is wasting everyone's time and the public purse doesn't deserve any more of this.
The UK or Scottish establishment doesn't give a **** about a stupid Glasgow football team that ran up debts and became persona non grata in the post new Labour luvvie environment due to the behaviour of its fans & their bigotry. The Establishment never lifted a finger to help Rangers. Unlike Hearts where you had the first Minister of Scotland pressurising the Lithuanian Ambassador etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Mandela
That's how case law works, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyM_1875
Had HMRC won, the public purse would have benefitted by applying the precedent to those other clubs.
It's easy to say in hindsight that it was a waste of money.
Aye, OK then.:cbQuote:
Originally Posted by AndyM_1875
Just about correct!Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Mandela
We always knew that was the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
No we should not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop Hibee
Thankfully it was closed awhile back - ask that man Dodds
Just to be clear, the football clubs which were using EBT's make up a tiny minority of the companies that HMRC are going after. This isn't about football clubs (though they did go after Rangers and of course they aren't a fan of the football creditors rule).Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyM_1875
In terms of unfairness and abuse of the system to make the wealthy wealthier, this is pretty bad. I personally hope that they appeal right to the lords if they are able to, and if they lose there then they pick another case and approach it from a different angle.
From what I understand, this verdict, like the FTTT judgment isn't entirely one-sided. The bulk of the HMRC appeal has been disallowed, but the I think the UTTT judge has directed some cases back to the lower tier for reassessment. Does anyone know if HMRC can go to a further appeal now, or do they have to wait for the revised UTTT result?
There was already some tax due after the FTTT verdict, but the media announced the news as if Rangers had been entirely cleared of liability. Expect a similar distortion in the papers tomorrow. There's also been a suggestion that Collyer-Bristow have had to make a large sum available to the creditors of the old club so Hun fury will be greater than ever.
You're right about it not being a clear "win", and that some of the issues have been sent back to the FTTT. If, as seems likely, those decisions go in favour of HMRC, that will put a dent (no idea how much) in the liquidation pot.Quote:
Originally Posted by ballengeich
I have no idea if HMRC can take the remaining case to the Lords. Nothing has been mentioned in the media, unsurprisingly.
I didn't know about the CB thing. BDO were suing them, so perhaps they've come to a settlement?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
HMRC are considering an appeal
i hope they get it and win, always someone else's fault with that great dirty unwashed mob!Quote:
Originally Posted by keekaboo
It does not matter one jot as they were liquidated.
Exactly that club no longer exists. The fact the died for no good reason makes it even funnier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyM_1875
Rangers always have and will continue to have the erm most favours handed out to them.
Their supporters feel they have been hard done by. Now, what I don't understand and hopefully one of the intelligentsia will be along to assist, but if the judges have ruled that the EBTs were indeed loans why don't the hun just get them all to repay them? This would surely fix all their money problems.
Because they no longer exist, you can't pay back money to a dead man. Rangers are dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucius Apuleius
Cue the mock outrage and we did nothing wrong witchhunt from them and their pals in the MSM. Every bit as paranoid as the other shower from the weedj.
"They" do still exist. The company that formerly owned the football club is still "in liquidation", which will continue until that process is complete.Quote:
Originally Posted by bighairyfaeleith
BDO, as liquidators, are currently suing the club's former lawyers for £30m. If that succeeds, then yes, the money will be paid to your "dead man."
It does matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
If the appeal succeeds, and HMRC have the resulting authority to pursue other companies, UK plc could be quids in.
And, they're not yet liquidated.
The new Hun incarnation is an entirely separate business from the one which was put into liquidation in 2012, so if any loans are ever repaid (don't hold your breath) the money would go into the trusts set up by the old club. The trusts were even separate from the old club so repayments wouldn't even benefit the creditors of the old club.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucius Apuleius
The club now operating out of Ibrox has no entitlement to anything relating to EBTs.
Will the dead man pass it on to the rangers? No so who gives a ****. Rangers are dead, if they end up rich in death it won't help themQuote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
No but they are no longer a functioning football club. The two are not connected because they chose to run and hide.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
That may matter more on the 'Tax payers alliance' forum. On a football forum, people are only really interested on the effect on the football team. In this case it's none because the old Rangers are dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
:-)
As a taxpayer, I give one. The money will be passed on to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by bighairyfaeleith
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...iness-28957732
HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) has been granted permission to appeal against a tax ruling over Rangers Football Club's use of employee benefit trusts (EBTs).
The ongoing tax claim has no impact on the current Rangers owners.
so who would a successful appeal have an impact on :confused: former players ?
It would have no impact on the former players.Quote:
Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875
It would have an impact on:-
1. the liquidation of the old owners of Rangers. A successful outcome would mean more of a payout to HMRC, and less to the other (smalle) creditors).
2. it would help HMRC in their actions in similar EBT cases against other companies.