#hibileaks/Hands On Hibs/BuyHibs (Merged)

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Originally Posted by marinello59

Unless the club says otherwise we have to take HoH's statement at face value, they are now working with the board to move things on. By meeting them without refuting any of the allegations made I would suggest that the club have now have given them a hefty dose of credibility.

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Hmm. HOH have spent the last month or so campaigning through leaflets, cards, protests and social networking to try to convince us that STF are thieves and liars who are destroying the club from within, and they claim to have proof of this. Yet after a wee chat, they're happy to work with them to find a way forward. It's a funny sort of credibility.

I would like the club to make a statement, but in the absence of it I don't know that I'd agree that it gives HOH the upper hand. The picture I have in my mind is of a teacher giving the two naughty boys in the class 'important' chief helper jobs, like tidying up the milk cartons, or sharpening the pencils.

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Originally Posted by matty_f

The issue I have with HoH (aside from spreading what appear to be completely malicious and unfounded lies) is that their two goals (stadium and club staying together, community ownership) seem a bit redundant.

Has there been any suggestion anywhere post-Straiton that Easter Road is in line to be separated from the Club? Is this even an issue? To me it's like campaigning to ensure we keep the name Hibernian, or keep playing in green, or don't become a netball team, or have Easter Road used for alien landings.

As for community ownership - is there a wide consensus that this is what the Hibernian community want? And what is their definition of the community? Keith? Edinburgh? Hibs fans?

They've plucked two important sounding but ultimately totally vacant big ticket items to focus on. Of course people will agree with the sentiment because they're emotive points on the face of it. But then again I could start a Hands on Hibs campaign on the key points that Hearts should never be allowed to buy us, and we should not ban black people from Easter Road. I'm sure the vast majority of the support would acknowledge that both points are worth fighting for, but there is no suggestion that either item is ever likely to become an issue.

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If you look at the Dunfermline and Motherwell models of ownership then I think, stress think, you'll find football club and ground/assets have been separated.

IIRC this has been done to strengthen the business model and very much more difficult for any single person/consortium to take over. Add in the Community Interest Status and I think that makes the set up pretty carpet bagger proof.

So, aside from the allegations made, their raison d'être isn't just redundant but not in the clubs best interest.

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Originally Posted by matty_f

The issue I have with HoH (aside from spreading what appear to be completely malicious and unfounded lies) is that their two goals (stadium and club staying together, community ownership) seem a bit redundant.

Has there been any suggestion anywhere post-Straiton that Easter Road is in line to be separated from the Club? Is this even an issue? To me it's like campaigning to ensure we keep the name Hibernian, or keep playing in green, or don't become a netball team, or have Easter Road used for alien landings.

As for community ownership - is there a wide consensus that this is what the Hibernian community want? And what is their definition of the community? Keith? Edinburgh? Hibs fans?

They've plucked two important sounding but ultimately totally vacant big ticket items to focus on. Of course people will agree with the sentiment because they're emotive points on the face of it. But then again I could start a Hands on Hibs campaign on the key points that Hearts should never be allowed to buy us, and we should not ban black people from Easter Road. I'm sure the vast majority of the support would acknowledge that both points are worth fighting for, but there is no suggestion that either item is ever likely to become an issue.

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I was at one of the Q&A nights a few weeks back (Wednesday) and at that meeting Leeann said one of the possible ways forward for Hibernian was to separate into a Propco / Opco setup. I was of the opinion this was seperating the footballing operation from the properties and assumed this was the concern of HOH.

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Originally Posted by s.a.m

The picture I have in my mind is of a teacher giving the two naughty boys in the class important 'chief helper' jobs, like tidying up the milk cartons, or sharpening the pencils.

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:greengrin Heh heh

The HoH business and the smearing of STF brings back memories of what happened in the 1980's.

Back then Kenny Waugh was'nt too popular a chairman and there was a few guys in the Fifty Club tried to force him out by spreading rumors that gate money was being stolen by K. W. amongst other things.

Eventually the group of agitators got their wish, Waugh sold the Club and stepped down as Chairman.

Welcome Duff, Grey and Spotty Rowland and we all know what came next.

I see one of the names associated with the HoH lot was one of that original group of muck spreaders.

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Originally Posted by s.a.m

Hmm. HOH have spent the last month or so campaigning through leaflets, cards, protests and social networking to try to convince us that STF are thieves and liars who are destroying the club from within, and they claim to have proof of this. Yet after a wee chat, they're happy to work with them to find a way forward. It's a funny sort of credibility.

I would like the club to make a statement, but in the absence of it I don't know that I'd agree that it gives HOH the upper hand. The picture I have in my mind is of a teacher giving the two naughty boys in the class 'important' chief helper jobs, like tidying up the milk cartons, or sharpening the pencils.

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I agree. It is a funny sort of credibility and not deserved in my opinion. But there will be plenty now willing to believe them. I guess I am just frustrated that the club didn't come out fighting the smears.

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Originally Posted by marinello59

I agree. It is a funny sort of credibility and not deserved in my opinion. But there will be plenty now willing to believe them. I guess I am just frustrated that the club didn't come out fighting the smears.

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Do you really think a lot of people would just believe them? (Genuine question btw)

I think if the club came out and fought the smears, the hacks would smell blood and start sniffing around and making trouble. Before you know it there would be escalating tit for tat exchanges in the press, fueled by journos looking for a "story" of discord at "beleagured" and "troubled" Hibs.

Effectively killing it stone dead in a private meeting was probably the wisest thing to do. The fandans making stuff up get to feel like billy big baws for an hour or two and the club, out of the public eye, disprove their claims or fire their warning shot across the bow or whatever.

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Originally Posted by marinello59

I agree. It is a funny sort of credibility and not deserved in my opinion. But there will be plenty now willing to believe them. I guess I am just frustrated that the club didn't come out fighting the smears.

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This is where I am with it, I would have expected the club to have met with them put them in their place and issued a statement to that effect. It seems very strange to me that they club have met with these people who have made hefty claims and all that has come out of it is a message from HOH that they are working together. If this was a company I owner, I wouldnt be working with anyone that had made up lies and I would have put a statement out to all my customers to this effect.

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Originally Posted by greenginger

The HoH business and the smearing of STF brings back memories of what happened in the 1980's.

Back then Kenny Waugh was'nt too popular a chairman and there was a few guys in the Fifty Club tried to force him out by spreading rumors that gate money was being stolen by K. W. amongst other things.

Eventually the group of agitators got their wish, Waugh sold the Club and stepped down as Chairman.

Welcome Duff, Grey and Spotty Rowland and we all know what came next.

I see one of the names associated with the HoH lot was one of that original group of muck spreaders.

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Given that's the case, it'll be interesting at the next home game to see if they come out with more unsubstantiated lies or tow the line a bit. I don't understand where all their "support" comes from, as I had a look at their facebook page and about 95% of the posts are from themselves. Maybe their followers are like the letter delivery kids and can't write yet?

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Originally Posted by ancient hibee

Downfall!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He holds all the aces-fancy a game of poker?

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2 questions. First are there any females playing?
Second. Is it strip poker?

GGTTH

Didn't HoH previously criticise the sort of cosy, wee chats with the club/Board/Dempster/Rodders that they've just taken part in?

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Originally Posted by matty_f

The issue I have with HoH (aside from spreading what appear to be completely malicious and unfounded lies) is that their two goals (stadium and club staying together, community ownership) seem a bit redundant. Has there been any suggestion anywhere post-Straiton that Easter Road is in line to be separated from the Club? Is this even an issue? I'm sure the vast majority of the support would acknowledge that both points are worth fighting for, but there is no suggestion that either item is ever likely to become an issue.

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Originally Posted by Jack

If you look at the Dunfermline and Motherwell models of ownership then I think, stress think, you'll find football club and ground/assets have been separated. IIRC this has been done to strengthen the business model and very much more difficult for any single person/consortium to take over. Add in the Community Interest Status and I think that makes the set up pretty carpet bagger proof. So, aside from the allegations made, their raison d'être isn't just redundant but not in the clubs best interest.

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Originally Posted by Harpandcastle

I was at one of the Q&A nights a few weeks back (Wednesday) and at that meeting Leeann said one of the possible ways forward for Hibernian was to separate into a Propco / Opco setup. I was of the opinion this was seperating the footballing operation from the properties and assumed this was the concern of HOH.

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So was I. So were Bradley Welsh and I think also Jim Slaven. Could it be that they heard if first at that meeting?

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Originally Posted by HFCDaveA

This is where I am with it, I would have expected the club to have met with them put them in their place and issued a statement to that effect. It seems very strange to me that they club have met with these people who have made hefty claims and all that has come out of it is a message from HOH that they are working together. If this was a company I owner, I wouldnt be working with anyone that had made up lies and I would have put a statement out to all my customers to this effect.

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Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer.

Own Goal.

Saw nice HoH sign planted up Cameron Toll junction last night.

Well done :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Harpandcastle

I was at one of the Q&A nights a few weeks back (Wednesday) and at that meeting Leeann said one of the possible ways forward for Hibernian was to separate into a Propco / Opco setup. I was of the opinion this was seperating the footballing operation from the properties and assumed this was the concern of HOH.

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This would be of concern to all of us, if true. Separating ownership of club and stadium usually leads to all sorts of trouble - and it's normally only clubs in financial distress that consider it in the first place.

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Originally Posted by jacomoseven

This would be of concern to all of us, if true. Separating ownership of club and stadium usually leads to all sorts of trouble - and it's normally only clubs in financial distress that consider it in the first place.

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Not really, it was suggested that it would be done, if at all, in such a way that a trust or membership would own over 50% of the stadium and it would ensure that the asset could never be sold on unless agreed by the fans/members.

It was on the table to assess whether it was wanted/palatable.

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Originally Posted by Andy74

Not really, it was suggested that it would be done, if at all, in such a way that a trust or membership would own over 50% of the stadium and it would ensure that the asset could never be sold on unless agreed by the fans/members.

It was on the table to assess whether it was wanted/palatable.

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Thanks for the clarification. I'm still sceptical though - what's in it for the minority stake owners? Is there an example of this working successfully elsewhere?

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Originally Posted by Andy74

Not really, it was suggested that it would be done, if at all, in such a way that a trust or membership would own over 50% of the stadium and it would ensure that the asset could never be sold on unless agreed by the fans/members.

It was on the table to assess whether it was wanted/palatable.

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Why couldn't they just own over 50% of the whole club?

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Originally Posted by greenginger

The HoH business and the smearing of STF brings back memories of what happened in the 1980's.

Back then Kenny Waugh was'nt too popular a chairman and there was a few guys in the Fifty Club tried to force him out by spreading rumors that gate money was being stolen by K. W. amongst other things.

Eventually the group of agitators got their wish, Waugh sold the Club and stepped down as Chairman.

Welcome Duff, Grey and Spotty Rowland and we all know what came next.

I see one of the names associated with the HoH lot was one of that original group of muck spreaders.

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I can't really follow the point you are trying to make GG.

Are you saying Duff, Grey and Rowland will come back if Farmer leaves?

Are you arguing that we hold on to nurse for fear of something worse?


Here's a Hibsnet FACT - STF is old he's not going to be around much longer. Things are going to change soon whether you like it or not.

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Originally Posted by Crazyhorse

Why couldn't they just own over 50% of the whole club?

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If they couldn't afford it?

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Originally Posted by grunt

I'm very sorry but speaking personally I refuse to take anything that HoH says at face value.

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Originally Posted by Crazyhorse

I can't really follow the point you are trying to make GG.

Are you saying Duff, Grey and Rowland will come back if Farmer leaves?

Are you arguing that we hold on to nurse for fear of something worse?


Here's a Hibsnet FACT - STF is old he's not going to be around much longer. Things are going to change soon whether you like it or not.

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His point is pretty plain to see

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Originally Posted by Crazyhorse

I can't really follow the point you are trying to make GG.

Are you saying Duff, Grey and Rowland will come back if Farmer leaves?

Are you arguing that we hold on to nurse for fear of something worse?


Here's a Hibsnet FACT - STF is old he's not going to be around much longer. Things are going to change soon whether you like it or not.

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Not trying to make any particular point, merely recalling a previous period of fan agitation and pointing out that one name amongst today's group has been at it before.

Oh, and maybe a forced sale does not produce the best outcome.

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Originally Posted by Crazyhorse

I can't really follow the point you are trying to make GG.

Are you saying Duff, Grey and Rowland will come back if Farmer leaves?

Are you arguing that we hold on to nurse for fear of something worse?


Here's a Hibsnet FACT - STF is old he's not going to be around much longer. Things are going to change soon whether you like it or not.

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Do you know something we don't :wink:

I'm sure his lawyers will have it all in hand and it may not be such a happy ending...........

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Originally Posted by jacomoseven

This would be of concern to all of us, if true. Separating ownership of club and stadium usually leads to all sorts of trouble - and it's normally only clubs in financial distress that consider it in the first place.

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It would only be a concern if the assets fell under the control of persons or companies that did not have Hibs interests as the over-riding aim.

Pass the stadium and training centre on to a not-for-profit trust and let the football side of the business lease it any pay the expenses and upkeep.

Better than allowing some unknowns use the Club assets as security whilst they " speculate to accumulate " or whatever the latest buzzwords are .

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Originally Posted by greenginger

It would only be a concern if the assets fell under the control of persons or companies that did not have Hibs interests as the over-riding aim.

Pass the stadium and training centre on to a not-for-profit trust and let the football side of the business lease it any pay the expenses and upkeep.

Better than allowing some unknowns use the Club assets as security whilst they " speculate to accumulate " or whatever the latest buzzwords are .

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The "club" is everything together; to split up interlinked assets in my view would be a recipe for difficult governance issues further down the line. Hibernian F.C. need finance first and community ownership second. STF and the board should be canvassing for a big ticket investor or "Investors". E.G. The George Best suite should be re-opened at the Balmoral and the fans encouraged to flock back to Easter Road. Edinburgh is a financial glamorous city and should have such an owner. The apathy should be replaced with excitement and Alan Subbs given serious spending money.

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Originally Posted by Hibeesforever

The "club" is everything together; to split up interlinked assets in my view would be a recipe for difficult governance issues further down the line. Hibernian F.C. need finance first and community ownership second. STF and the board should be canvassing for a big ticket investor or "Investors". E.G. The George Best suite should be re-opened at the Balmoral and the fans encouraged to flock back to Easter Road. Edinburgh is a financial glamorous city and should have such an owner. The apathy should be replaced with excitement and Alan Subbs given serious spending money.

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I don't think we need external finance in that way, we need to sustainably grow our income by increasing our fan base, tickets, merchandising etc and hopefully by bringing through and eventually seling on more good players.

I just don't see any benefits in any type of change of ownership unless it is being forced.

Changes in the way the club is run and promoted day to day, yes, but that's a different thing.

What would big ticket investment mean for Hibs? If you are looking to challenge Celtic to begin with then their wage budget alone is what, north of £25m per year every year? So you'd be looking at someone chucking in at least £15m every single year for a long time. Not going to happen.

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Originally Posted by Crazyhorse

I can't really follow the point you are trying to make GG.

Are you saying Duff, Grey and Rowland will come back if Farmer leaves?

Are you arguing that we hold on to nurse for fear of something worse?


Here's a Hibsnet FACT - STF is old he's not going to be around much longer. Things are going to change soon whether you like it or not.

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Classy.

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Originally Posted by Phil D. Rolls

Classy.

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But true, STF is now 74 and is getting on a bit now, how much longer will he want to be the owner of Hibs, at his age he must be thinking it is time for him to enjoy the rest of his life with his wife and family and not have the hassle he is having now of being the owner of Hibs.

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Originally Posted by silverhibee

But true, STF is now 74 and is getting on a bit now, how much longer will he want to be the owner of Hibs, at his age he must be thinking it is time for him to enjoy the rest of his life with his wife and family and not have the hassle he is having now of being the owner of Hibs.

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70s are the new 40s.