The Trans Rights Debate

To be honest we could save the debate and click back either 5 or say 10 pages and it's on repeat. Everyone thinks trans abuse is vile, most want more rights for trans. People are split on female only spaces and sport and that is pretty much it on repeat

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

There's the same debates and demonstrations as here, Irish rugby just banned people born as males from playing with women.

The way I see it as we need to listen to women it's more misogyny to not. In every poll women don't want people born male to be in women's only spaces. Why should men say tough. If the debate was taken away from women only spaces and sport, I think 90% would be on the same page

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It only seems to be on here that women only spaces is at the centre of the debate.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

To be honest we could save the debate and click back either 5 or say 10 pages and it's on repeat. Everyone thinks trans abuse is vile, most want more rights for trans. People are split on female only spaces and sport and that is pretty much it on repeat

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And I still think it’s an issue that the majority of the public ignore and don’t really care about. I doubt there are many votes in it either way.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

And I still think it’s an issue that the majority of the public ignore and don’t really care about. I doubt there are many votes in it either way.


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Most definitely don't. The biggest clash is between trans activists and lesbian and feminist groups.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

And I still think it’s an issue that the majority of the public ignore and don’t really care about. I doubt there are many votes in it either way.


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It's got nothing to do with votes. It's about expressing justifiable concern about a highly contentious piece of legislation - the price the SNP have paid for bringing the toxic Scottish Greens on board for the sake of a majority.

Rowling is putting her considerable clout to good use here to give this issue a much-needed higher profile.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

It isn't listening to the will of the majority of women. .

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Is there evidence of this?

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Originally Posted by He's here!

It's got nothing to do with votes. It's about expressing justifiable concern about a highly contentious piece of legislation - the price the SNP have paid for bringing the toxic Scottish Greens on board for the sake of a majority.

Rowling is putting her considerable clout to good use here to give this issue a much-needed higher profile.

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:top marks

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Originally Posted by Mr Grieves

Is there evidence of this?

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The last two polls show women are split down the middle roughly on whether it should be easier to change. Most oppose the time you have to spend in the other body dropping from 2 years to 6 months. Most oppose them using single sex spaces and playing female sport.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60214574.amp

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

The last two polls show women are split down the middle roughly on whether it should be easier to change. Most oppose the time you have to spend in the other body dropping from 2 years to 6 months. Most oppose them using single sex spaces and playing female sport.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc...d-60214574.amp

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I don’t think the law on using single sex spaces changes with the GRA?
I agree on sport but I don’t think the GRA deals with this at all? It leaves it to sports bodies?


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I don’t think the law on using single sex spaces changes with the GRA?
I agree on sport but I don’t think the GRA deals with this at all? It leaves it to sports bodies?


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That's covered by the Equality Act, AIUI.

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Originally Posted by Mr Grieves

So by that logic Sturgeon, a woman btw, is being anti-women?

Shona Robison, another woman btw, is anti-women?

And don't get me started on the irony of a pro-women woman personally attacking another woman.

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What do you think about the irony of a man being the head of a woman only rape crisis centre in Edinburgh ?

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

What do you think about the irony of a man being the head of a woman only rape crisis centre in Edinburgh ?

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Is that made possible by the GRA?


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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

What do you think about the irony of a man being the head of a woman only rape crisis centre in Edinburgh ?

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This place?


https://www.ercc.scot/welcome-to-mridul-wadhwa-our-new-ceo/

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

This place?


https://www.ercc.scot/welcome-to-mridul-wadhwa-our-new-ceo/

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Yes the one that pushed against allowing females who had been raped, to see a person born a female only. Also said rape survivors should be challenged on their views. Crazy decisions like this distracts from the real issues

The times

THE Scottish Greens have defended the head of a rape crisis centre who said “bigoted” survivors should have their “unacceptable beliefs” challenged as part of their recovery.

Mridul Wadhwa, chief executive of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, said people would not truly recover from trauma unless they addressed any prejudices as “therapy is political”.*

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Yes the one that pushed against allowing females who had been raped, to see a person born a female only. Also said rape survivors should be challenged on their views. Crazy decisions like this distracts from the real issues

The times

THE Scottish Greens have defended the head of a rape crisis centre who said “bigoted” survivors should have their “unacceptable beliefs” challenged as part of their recovery.

Mridul Wadhwa, chief executive of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, said people would not truly recover from trauma unless they addressed any prejudices as “therapy is political”.*

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So a trans woman, fighting for women and particularly women from ethnic minority groups. All sounds like a good person.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

So a trans woman, fighting for women and particularly women from ethnic minority groups. All sounds like a good person.

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Sorry I need a bit of help here. Is this sarcasm?

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

So a trans woman, fighting for women and particularly women from ethnic minority groups. All sounds like a good person.

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The head of one of Scotland’s biggest rape crisis centres has suggested “bigoted” rape survivors should be re-educated about transgender rights as part of recovering from their trauma.

Mridul Wadhwa, a transgender woman, said people would not truly recover unless they addressed their “unacceptable beliefs” because “therapy is political”.

She said: “We will work with you... but please expect to be challenged on your prejudices."

https://www.heraldscotland.com/polit...-trans-rights/

I suppose it depends on your definition of good. Personally, I found his statement deeply offensive and dangerous



Wadhwa has a long history of securing positions allocated specifically for women, as detailed on The Glinner Update, including doing so deceitfully. Moreover, while working as a manager at the Forth Valley Rape Crisis Centre, Wadhwa participated in an interview in April 2019 with The Student newspaper. When asked if a man could be a successful rape crisis centre manager, Wadhwa answered, with no hint of irony: I don’t think men are ready to go out and set up services of this nature. Women’s aid organisations and rape crisis centres have been set up with the blood, sweat, and tears of women. It’s about the women’s experience of sexual violence. Our workforce is reserved for women only.

https://www.womenarehuman.com/rape-c...to-women-only/

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

So a trans woman, fighting for women and particularly women from ethnic minority groups. All sounds like a good person.

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Fighting against women no. Why would she be bothered if some women want to be seen by a biological woman after they have been raped. They don't need re-educated they need compassion and their wishes met at the worst point in their life

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Fighting against women no. Why would she be bothered if some women want to be seen by a biological woman after they have been raped. They don't need re-educated they need compassion and their wishes met at the worst point in their life

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What if they said they only want to be seen by a white councillor?


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

What if they said they only want to be seen by a white councillor?


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Not in any way comparable, come on to f

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

What if they said they only want to be seen by a white councillor?


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Just to be clear Ozy, are you equating women who have been raped who wish services from women, for personal, trauma, religious or any reason, with racists?

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Not in any way comparable, come on to f

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I know it’s not and I probably would not have hired her for this role but it does highlight the prejudice they face. I think trans women do have to accept that while they do deserve equality of opportunity, there are a tiny amount of jobs that they can’t be considered for. Professional sportswoman and rape crisis councillor could def be two of them.
If she is just the CEO of this organisation and does actually do the council long then I don’t see a problem?
None of this appears to be anything to do with the GRA though?


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I know it’s not and I probably would not have hired her for this role but it does highlight the prejudice they face. I think trans women do have to accept that while they do deserve equality of opportunity, there are a tiny amount of jobs that they can’t be considered for. Professional sportswoman and rape crisis councillor could def be two of them.
If she is just the CEO of this organisation and does actually do the council long then I don’t see a problem?
None of this appears to be anything to do with the GRA though?


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I think almost everyone would agree with that, well a sizable majority. If its an official pr organisational ect role I don't see the problem. I don't think it's transphobic to say they should have all the freedoms of a woman bar just a couple of caveats.

In trying to focus on principles rather than the noise, I think there is an issue with the definition of 'trans'. I know people who have supported people transitioning. The person concerned was vulnerable and was on a long path to medically transition. I really think the vast majority of people would have no issue with treating them as a woman. But the GRA allows someone as young as 16 to identify as the opposite sex for 3 months, with 3 months colling off. All self IDed. They do have to sign an oath that they will remain as they have chosen, but I think that will be unenforcable. So effectively all a person has to do is say they are a woman to be treated as one. The vagueness that this builds into the system means that someone who has fully transitioned (I mean following drug therapy and surgery) is viewed in exactly the same way as someone who self IDs after three months (plus cooling off) - who may have had no medical intervention whatsoever. I think that's unhelpful to people who fully transition and also blurs the wider issues that will arise.

In addition, there appears to be little consideration for people who are concerned about what this means for them. Ozy implied that people asking for same sex carers were akin to racists. How do you take forward serious policy discusions in that environment?

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

The last two polls show women are split down the middle roughly on whether it should be easier to change. Most oppose the time you have to spend in the other body dropping from 2 years to 6 months. Most oppose them using single sex spaces and playing female sport.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60214574.amp

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There's 3 questions that get majority support in that article and not one of them backs up your previous point :confused:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I don’t think the law on using single sex spaces changes with the GRA?
I agree on sport but I don’t think the GRA deals with this at all? It leaves it to sports bodies?


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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

That's covered by the Equality Act, AIUI.

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:agree:

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Originally Posted by Mr Grieves

There's 3 questions that get majority support in that article and not one of them backs up your previous point :confused:

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The full poll is about 10 pages back and was discussed at the time, there was absout 20 questions. About the only question more women agreed with change was it should be easier. More were against it dropping to 3 months, single sex spaces being removed, the age of change dropping to 16

Uk wide it's similar, tories as you expect want less change than Labour voters. People were much more willing to let people in single sex spaces post surgery, I believe the vast majority don't have surgery though
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2020-07-16/Transgender%20attitudes%20summary-01.png

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

The head of one of Scotland’s biggest rape crisis centres has suggested “bigoted” rape survivors should be re-educated about transgender rights as part of recovering from their trauma.

Mridul Wadhwa, a transgender woman, said people would not truly recover unless they addressed their “unacceptable beliefs” because “therapy is political”.

She said: “We will work with you... but please expect to be challenged on your prejudices."

https://www.heraldscotland.com/polit...-trans-rights/

I suppose it depends on your definition of good. Personally, I found his statement deeply offensive and dangerous



Wadhwa has a long history of securing positions allocated specifically for women, as detailed on The Glinner Update, including doing so deceitfully. Moreover, while working as a manager at the Forth Valley Rape Crisis Centre, Wadhwa participated in an interview in April 2019 with The Student newspaper. When asked if a man could be a successful rape crisis centre manager, Wadhwa answered, with no hint of irony: I don’t think men are ready to go out and set up services of this nature. Women’s aid organisations and rape crisis centres have been set up with the blood, sweat, and tears of women. It’s about the women’s experience of sexual violence. Our workforce is reserved for women only.

https://www.womenarehuman.com/rape-c...to-women-only/

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Yep, sounds like a good, empathetic person.

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Originally Posted by archie

In trying to focus on principles rather than the noise, I think there is an issue with the definition of 'trans'. I know people who have supported people transitioning. The person concerned was vulnerable and was on a long path to medically transition. I really think the vast majority of people would have no issue with treating them as a woman. But the GRA allows someone as young as 16 to identify as the opposite sex for 3 months, with 3 months colling off. All self IDed. They do have to sign an oath that they will remain as they have chosen, but I think that will be unenforcable. So effectively all a person has to do is say they are a woman to be treated as one. The vagueness that this builds into the system means that someone who has fully transitioned (I mean following drug therapy and surgery) is viewed in exactly the same way as someone who self IDs after three months (plus cooling off) - who may have had no medical intervention whatsoever. I think that's unhelpful to people who fully transition and also blurs the wider issues that will arise.

In addition, there appears to be little consideration for people who are concerned about what this means for them. Ozy implied that people asking for same sex carers were akin to racists. How do you take forward serious policy discusions in that environment?

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Excellent post.

Patrick Harvie has previously stated that women who believe sex matters are akin to racists and heads a party whose policy is that anyone who says they are a woman literally is one - something, as you say, that the proposed reform of the GRA will effectively make a legal reality. Like you, the implications of this and the vagueness it builds in concern me a great deal.

I see Nicola Sturgeon has tried to pour cold water on such concerns in response to Rowling's criticism and I suspect she hopes that very vagueness will prevent this issue becoming a hotter potato than it currently is.

A friend of a colleague of mine has just been elected to Brazil's congress as one of its first two transgender members.

http://https://www.reuters.com/world...ss-2022-10-05/

Her v Bolsonaro? :cb