SNP are lying b******s as well !

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01-03-2022, 11:04 PM
Ozyhibby

Quote:

Originally Posted by James310

The UK as we know it will cease to exist, pensions are a benefit and they can change the rules tomorrow if they wanted, decrease it or increase it or change the age you get it as they have done in the past.

The key thing is the tax base, if pensions cost the UK say £100BN a year now and that's made up contributions of say Scotland £10BN, Wales £5BN, NI £5BN and England £80BN then if Scotland leaves the UK they take their £10BN with them, leaving £90BN in contributions. To suggest those left pay higher taxes to still pay the total bill of £100BN and the pensions of what are essentially people in a foreign country now is just not something I ever see happening and the current Pensions Minister has said that. Remember there is no pot, it's all funded from current taxation.

Things change though, who knows where we will be. I just don't understand why it was Ian Blackford that brought this up again as a point to debate.

The UK will not cease to exist. There is zero chance of that. England, Wales and NI will continue as the UK. They will be the continuing state. That is agreed by all sides.

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02-03-2022, 04:59 AM
WeeRussell

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenginger

I’m not the least upset !

No, strangely seemingly quite excited by another definite snag, which is definitely going to be a huge issue we can’t get round, that must have stopped every other country who’s ever considered independence in the past going through with it.

Still, at least it got the hibs.netter together reps active again 👍
02-03-2022, 05:55 AM
Hibrandenburg

Quote:

Originally Posted by James310

As you say yourself they are paid from current revenues i.e. taxes. As there is no pot then I don't see what they can work out and make a payment from if no pot exists. There is working balance of around a couple of months payment so maybe something from that, but that would be minimal.

Not often I would do this but the SG position is clear at the moment (or was) that pensions will be paid by the SG and that's it. To start saying it will be negotiated or you can sue the UK Government (under what law I have no idea) is maybe not the winning strategy some might think it is.

As the FOI makes clear, there has been no change in policy.

Funny that the EU and UK still collaborate on pensions for citizens who have paid into UK and EU schemes despite the UK leaving the EU.

So we're not just too wee, too poor and too stupid to run our own affairs, we're now too old.

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02-03-2022, 06:00 AM
greenlex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skol

Yeah, cos every ex pat takes the whole tax paying base with them so it’s exactly the same as independence. If you want to believe this nonsense, then fine. But you are in for a shock

I’m not really in for a shock am I? Come independence up here I’m willing to bet anything you like that the pension I get will be at least equal to what the rUK will be getting. It’ll be paid for in exactly the same way it would be just now too. I certainly believe that. Might even be more.Other forward thinking European countries seem to manage it.
02-03-2022, 06:00 AM
James310

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

The UK will not cease to exist. There is zero chance of that. England, Wales and NI will continue as the UK. They will be the continuing state. That is agreed by all sides.

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I said the UK as we know it.
02-03-2022, 06:03 AM
James310

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

Funny that the EU and UK still collaborate on pensions for citizens who have paid into UK and EU schemes despite the UK leaving the EU.

So we're not just too wee, too poor and too stupid to run our own affairs, we're now too old.

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What's so difficult about an independent Scotland paying it's pensions for the people of an independent Scotland? That's what I am saying will happen.

If you think the rUK will somehow keep paying it and increase the taxes of the people left in rUK to fund it and that's a message you think would work well in any campaign then crack on.
02-03-2022, 06:13 AM
Skol

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenlex

I’m not really in for a shock am I? Come independence up here I’m willing to bet anything you like that the pension I get will be at least equal to what the rUK will be getting. It’ll be paid for in exactly the same way it would be just now too. I certainly believe that. Might even be more.Other forward thinking European countries seem to manage it.

You want to bet that your pension will be paid by the U.K. government?
02-03-2022, 06:16 AM
Skol

I guess my point is that Scotland will pay Scottish pensions. It will be part of an overall agreement but in reality we take the tax payers and so we pay the pension at whatever level can be afforded. Other than that there is nothing to agree

This nonsense about Westminster being liable legally is just setting up a grievance to wind people up
02-03-2022, 07:00 AM
ronaldo7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Sure I saw something that the amount that would be raised in contributions in Scotland would cover state pension around 3.5 times over.

I knew Gers would come in handy some time. These are not my figures, so I've not checked them. Maybe those worried about pensions would like to do so. 😭

Scottish state pensions will be more than covered by Scottish NI.
Annual NI = £11476m
Annual Pensions = £8517m
Leaves £2959m surplus for other benefits.
Source Table 1.1 & Box 3.2 GERS 2021
02-03-2022, 07:10 AM
Glory Lurker

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenginger

Yep , Scotland will have to take their share.

Some might even suggest the Barnet formula should be applied, extra 10% or thereabouts on to Scotland’s share. :wink:

No, we won't have to take a share. It's rUK's debt as tge continuing nation. We might choose to as part of the negotiations, but that's the point - it's not black and white.
02-03-2022, 07:10 AM
degenerated

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul1642

That’s because pensions are paid by the current tax payers, not those receiving them (as they paid for the previous generations pension). Basically a big pyramid scheme from what I can gather [emoji23].

Why would the tax payers of what remain of the UK pay for a separate counties pensions. It’s not like it’s a pot that has had been paid into as you would for private pension. We wouldn’t be paying for the rest of the UKs pensions so it should work out about similar to present for us (depending on our % of pensioners per population compared to the other nations which imagine is similar)

But they are based on historic contributions. Doesn't matter where they are paid from , the UK has an obligation to honour that.

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02-03-2022, 07:14 AM
ronaldo7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glory Lurker

No, we won't have to take a share. It's rUK's debt as tge continuing nation. We might choose to as part of the negotiations, but that's the point - it's not black and white.

Correct. We could always take a share of the palaces.
02-03-2022, 07:14 AM
danhibees1875

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

The UK will not cease to exist. There is zero chance of that. England, Wales and NI will continue as the UK. They will be the continuing state. That is agreed by all sides.

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Not sure what Wales think of that. :wink:

"as we know it" makes it make sense though - the UK would change significantly if Scotland left.

The pension question is a good one and the example of an expat having contributed to NI then leaving still getting his pension is an interesting example, but I think it boils down to the difference between a person leaving the UK and a tax base leaving the UK.

There's no pot of money waiting to pay our pensions (I'm 30 so doubt I'll see any pension regardless!), it's done on a cash in and out basis with the current tax base paying for the current pensioners. I think it makes sense that when a tax base leaves (Scotland) then pensioners from that tax base wouldn't receive the pension from the remainder of the tax base.

As already mentioned though iScotland would then have its own tax base in its own right to pay for the pensioners here so the net result isn't that different to where we are now anyway (just a realisation of the notional deficit that'll exist between pension contributions and payments that are Scotland specific, and any subsequent consequences; reduced benefits, higher tax, or increased debt).
02-03-2022, 07:14 AM
James310

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronaldo7

I knew Gers would come in handy some time. These are not my figures, so I've not checked them. Maybe those worried about pensions would like to do so. 😭

Scottish state pensions will be more than covered by Scottish NI.
Annual NI = £11476m
Annual Pensions = £8517m
Leaves £2959m surplus for other benefits.
Source Table 1.1 & Box 3.2 GERS 2021

Those 'other benefits' cost £13BN. Universal Credit for example is £3BN, housing benefit is £1.3BN and so on.

But that's for another day.
02-03-2022, 07:17 AM
ronaldo7

Quote:

Originally Posted by James310

Those 'other benefits' cost £13BN. Universal Credit for example is £3BN, housing benefit is £1.3BN and so on.

But that's for another day.

Im not sure if you've checked the numbers, but are those figures I've posted correct re the pensions? That's after all what the thread was started about. 👍
02-03-2022, 07:22 AM
James310

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronaldo7

Im not sure if you've checked the numbers, but are those figures I've posted correct re the pensions? That's after all what the thread was started about. 👍

Yes 100% correct, if you believe GERs.
02-03-2022, 07:24 AM
ronaldo7

Quote:

Originally Posted by James310

Yes 100% correct, if you believe GERs.

Thanks. 👍
02-03-2022, 08:06 AM
Moulin Yarns

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronaldo7

I knew Gers would come in handy some time. These are not my figures, so I've not checked them. Maybe those worried about pensions would like to do so. 😭

Scottish state pensions will be more than covered by Scottish NI.
Annual NI = £11476m
Annual Pensions = £8517m
Leaves £2959m surplus for other benefits.
Source Table 1.1 & Box 3.2 GERS 2021

Thanks Ron. I knew there was a surplus. I over estimated it but a surplus nonetheless!! Mon the Scottish pension 😁
02-03-2022, 08:10 AM
degenerated

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

While pensions are paid from current revenue, the amount you receive is based on contributions throughout your working life. I would think that anyone individual who has paid all their contributions to the UK all their life would have no problem winning a case against the UK for payment wherever they lived.
It will all be sorted in negotiations and the SG will make the payments once Indy is achieved.

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Ros Altmann doesn't appear to think it's much of an issue. She may be a Tory but as pension experts go there aren't many more knowledgeable in the UK than her.

Attachment 25624

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02-03-2022, 08:19 AM
James310

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Thanks Ron. I knew there was a surplus. I over estimated it but a surplus nonetheless!! Mon the Scottish pension 😁

It's only a surplus when you don't pay any other benefits that NI pays for! I don't think we will stop paying housing benefit, Universal Credits etc.
02-03-2022, 08:39 AM
Ozyhibby

Quote:

Originally Posted by James310

It's only a surplus when you don't pay any other benefits that NI pays for! I don't think we will stop paying housing benefit, Universal Credits etc.

Correct. And just like housing benefit and UC, we will continue to pay pensions. Some will continue to try scare pensioners though.

I think housing benefit is rolled into UC now?

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02-03-2022, 09:14 AM
JeMeSouviens

It's weird that resident Unionists now seem to be arguing that the Scottish NI contributions aren't large enough to sustain a bunch of defined benefits when they themselves started off arguing that NI doesn't specifically pay for any benefit and is just another part of general taxation. :confused:
02-03-2022, 09:16 AM
JeMeSouviens

Anyway, money is a bit like hibs.net accounts made up of <biblical first name><bunch of numbers>, you can always magic up some more provided you don't overdo it. :wink:
02-03-2022, 09:17 AM
lord bunberry

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glory Lurker

No, we won't have to take a share. It's rUK's debt as tge continuing nation. We might choose to as part of the negotiations, but that's the point - it's not black and white.

Exactly, if the UK refuse to pay pensions then Scotland could refuse to pay its share of the debt. There will be negotiations after a yes vote, it won’t just be a clean break.

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02-03-2022, 09:23 AM
James310

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

Anyway, money is a bit like hibs.net accounts made up of <biblical first name><bunch of numbers>, you can always magic up some more provided you don't overdo it. :wink:

We can start trading personal insults if you like but the admins would probably prefer we keep it in topic. Feel free to put me on ignore.
02-03-2022, 09:54 AM
Moulin Yarns

https://www.holyrood.com/inside-poli...ts-complicated

Just yesterday!

https://fraserofallander.org/who-pay...dent-scotland/

And the fraser of allender article
02-03-2022, 10:17 AM
WeeRussell

Quote:

Originally Posted by degenerated

Ros Altmann doesn't appear to think it's much of an issue. She may be a Tory but as pension experts go there aren't many more knowledgeable in the UK than her.

Attachment 25624

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But does she want to bet on that?
02-03-2022, 10:23 AM
degenerated

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeeRussell

But does she want to bet on that?

Probably :greengrin

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02-03-2022, 09:07 PM
Moulin Yarns

Further to the conversation on pension. I and others mentioned that NI contributions are more than enough to cover pensions, however it turns out that they are not ring-fenced, so other income could also be used to increase scottish pensions, while the NI contributions can also be used for other purposes.

Glad that has been cleared up.
03-03-2022, 05:19 AM
Skol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Further to the conversation on pension. I and others mentioned that NI contributions are more than enough to cover pensions, however it turns out that they are not ring-fenced, so other income could also be used to increase scottish pensions, while the NI contributions can also be used for other purposes.

Glad that has been cleared up.

It would be helpful if blackford took that line rather than telling us the U.K. will pay Scottish pensions

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