#WomenWontWheesht

There's certainly something of a trans panic in the media at the moment, which is quite reminiscent of the gay panic of the 80s. The tropes about bathrooms and children being indoctrinated could almost be copy and paste jobs. The added combustible element this time around is social media. The only other thing I'll add is that hearing Alex Salmond talk solemnly about women's rights during the election campaign made me want to vomit.

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

I find it hard to have an opinion on this because I'm ignorant about so much of the debate. I see people, on both sides, trying to reduce it to 3 word slogans and it leaves me increasingly wary of trying to get involved.

I read an interview with Richard O'Brien recently, it wasn't a new interview but it was new to me. Given his historical background as an advocate of sexual liberation, transvestitism, transgender rights, his own identification as third sex (who uses the he pronoun) and his previous admittance to using estrogen, I assumed he would be of the 'trans women are women' stance. I was quite surprised to see him take quite a firm line that whilst you can change your gender it is fundamentally wrong to say you can alter the sex you were assigned at birth regardless of the surgery, hormone therapy etc you take. He was firmly supportive of the right to self ID, self expression and so on but argued that wasn't the same as ultimately changing sex.

I didn't find the interview particularly enlightening, just confusing. The comments section saw him branded a transphobe and a bigot which seems crazy. I think the encapsulates the nuance of the debate though.

It's something I'd love to know more about so I could form a more rounded opinion of my own. I think of myself as quite middle of the road on it. I don't think I'm either transphobic or a misogynist but the online debate is so polarised I may well be in the eyes of some.

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Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't sex is based on chromosomes at the point of conception, it is not something which is "assigned at birth"? Obviously there is the rare people with DSD but I see this as a totally separate issue to the trans debate (although there may be some crossovers in that some DSD people may be trans).

I personally think that gender is fluid and people can change their gender, but that sex is a biological thing which cannot be changed.

Trans people should have exactly the same rights as everyone else, no question about that. There is a dichotomy here though where it is perceived that by granting rights (in this case the battle ground seems to be over sport and changing facilities) to one group you remove rights from another group. This also cannot be right.

As a male person I don't feel that I should be saying to a female that the changing rooms thing isn't an issue, it's not my place. But that is clearly difficult for trans people who have to either use the male changing rooms (which isn't acceptable imho) or disabled changing rooms, which probably makes them feel isolated where we should be trying to be inclusive and welcoming to people who have probably gone through significant mental trauma to get to the point they are at. I genuinely don't know what the solution to that is. Individual cubicles for all in a unisex changing space? Swimming pools certainly seem to be going down this route and it works quite well.

The sport issue is a bit more clear cut in my opinion, clearly someone who has gone through male puberty and years of male physical development cannot just reverse the effects of that on their body. There is a reason why most sports are divided into male and female sports, because male development leads to physical differences which in general would give males the advantage over females. I think that it is clear that this advantage is retained to some extent despite reductions in testosterone levels. You can see from the results that Laurel Hubbard is getting in weightlifting that she has a significant advantage over women who are biologically female.

https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/s...660615171?s=19

I have to read up more on this as there must be more to it that "just" changing rooms and sports, people can't be getting so worked up about it over just that surely.

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Originally Posted by Sergio sledge

Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't sex is based on chromosomes at the point of conception, it is not something which is "assigned at birth"? Obviously there is the rare people with DSD but I see this as a totally separate issue to the trans debate (although there may be some crossovers in that some DSD people may be trans).

I personally think that gender is fluid and people can change their gender, but that sex is a biological thing which cannot be changed.

Trans people should have exactly the same rights as everyone else, no question about that. There is a dichotomy here though where it is perceived that by granting rights (in this case the battle ground seems to be over sport and changing facilities) to one group you remove rights from another group. This also cannot be right.

As a male person I don't feel that I should be saying to a female that the changing rooms thing isn't an issue, it's not my place. But that is clearly difficult for trans people who have to either use the male changing rooms (which isn't acceptable imho) or disabled changing rooms, which probably makes them feel isolated where we should be trying to be inclusive and welcoming to people who have probably gone through significant mental trauma to get to the point they are at. I genuinely don't know what the solution to that is. Individual cubicles for all in a unisex changing space? Swimming pools certainly seem to be going down this route and it works quite well.

The sport issue is a bit more clear cut in my opinion, clearly someone who has gone through male puberty and years of male physical development cannot just reverse the effects of that on their body. There is a reason why most sports are divided into male and female sports, because male development leads to physical differences which in general would give males the advantage over females. I think that it is clear that this advantage is retained to some extent despite reductions in testosterone levels. You can see from the results that Laurel Hubbard is getting in weightlifting that she has a significant advantage over women who are biologically female.

https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/1399449040660615171?s=19

I have to read up more on this as there must be more to it that "just" changing rooms and sports, people can't be getting so worked up about it over just that surely.

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And yet this perfectly rational opinion is enough to have you thrown to the woke wolves should you dare to express it in public as the likes of J K Rowling have done.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

And yet this perfectly rational opinion is enough to have you thrown to the woke wolves should you dare to express it in public as the likes of J K Rowling have done.

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It's language like "thrown to the woke wolves" that does little service to a rational debate.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

It's language like "thrown to the woke wolves" that does little service to a rational debate.

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I reckon that's a pretty diplomatic turn of phrase in the context of what I'm referring to. The abuse and threats Rowling has received for simply expressing a perfectly legitimate opinion are outrageous. At no time has she said anything that could be reasonably construed as transphobic yet for some her remarkable and hard-won literary legacy (though personally I don't rate the books that highly. The films are good though!) and her fantastic commitment to charities are of no consequence when set against the apparently unforgivable crime of believing biology matters. Ditto the likes of Joanna Cherry (whom I otherwise can't abide) and her stance on women's sex-based rights.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

I reckon that's a pretty diplomatic turn of phrase in the context of what I'm referring to. The abuse and threats Rowling has received for simply expressing a perfectly legitimate opinion are outrageous. At no time has she said anything that could be reasonably construed as transphobic yet for some her remarkable and hard-won literary legacy (though personally I don't rate the books that highly. The films are good though!) and her fantastic commitment to charities are of no consequence when set against the apparently unforgivable crime of believing biology matters. Ditto the likes of Joanna Cherry (whom I otherwise can't abide) and her stance on women's sex-based rights.

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I THINK (like a few I’ve refrained from commenting on much of this as I’m neither well-informed or completely sure where I stand) I’m quite supportive of JK Rowling’s position on this, having not found that in the past with her and politics.

But - if she had said something that was offensive or wrong/out of order, why would Harry Potter and charity donations make it any more acceptable?

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Originally Posted by 7 Up

There's certainly something of a trans panic in the media at the moment, which is quite reminiscent of the gay panic of the 80s. The tropes about bathrooms and children being indoctrinated could almost be copy and paste jobs. The added combustible element this time around is social media. The only other thing I'll add is that hearing Alex Salmond talk solemnly about women's rights during the election campaign made me want to vomit.

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It won't be long before there are not enough months in the year for some organisation to claim as their own, that should be interesting :rolleyes:. I don't think there's any kind of panic in the media or general public at all, and Salmond has always had the capacity to make me want to vomit.

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Originally Posted by WeeRussell

I THINK (like a few I’ve refrained from commenting on much of this as I’m neither well-informed or completely sure where I stand) I’m quite supportive of JK Rowling’s position on this, having not found that in the past with her and politics.

But - if she had said something that was offensive or wrong/out of order, why would Harry Potter and charity donations make it any more acceptable?

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It wouldn't. But she didn't say anything that could be reasonably construed as wrong/out of order. Yet she's being lumped by some alongside those 'outed' by the MeToo movement or 'cancel culture', with absurd calls for her books to be banned, for her to be stripped of literary awards etc.

This is a good and inspirational woman who, as a struggling single mother, got where did the hard way and has since used her success and wealth to entertain millions as well as funding some game-changing charitable initiatives, in particular those involving MS. She deserves to be celebrated not demonised.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

I reckon that's a pretty diplomatic turn of phrase in the context of what I'm referring to.

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A pejorative is not a diplomatic turn of phrase.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

A pejorative is not a diplomatic turn of phrase.

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How about a restrained turn of phrase?

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Originally Posted by He's here!

It wouldn't. But she didn't say anything that could be reasonably construed as wrong/out of order. Yet she's being lumped by some alongside those 'outed' by the MeToo movement or 'cancel culture', with absurd calls for her books to be banned, for her to be stripped of literary awards etc.

This is a good and inspirational woman who, as a struggling single mother, got where did the hard way and has since used her success and wealth to entertain millions as well as funding some game-changing charitable initiatives, in particular those involving MS. She deserves to be celebrated not demonised.

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Again, IF she had said something deserving of criticism, your second part is irrelevant.

Hitler wrote a famous book. It doesn't mean his political views shouldn't be criticised.

As I said, I think I am on JK's side, from what little I know about it. My point is how many books she's written, or how much work she has done for charity doesn't make her immune to stick for controversial views. In fact, there are some that would argue that being in the public eye means she has a bigger responsibility than most in being careful about what she says.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

How about a restrained turn of phrase?

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Nope, no havin it 😁

The W word, like its PC predecessor, has become a term of criticism. Its use, in my book, dilutes the rest of what might be a reasonable argument.

Moral panic over Stonewall and trans rights is fuelled by misinterpretation

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

My only issue is with Sport. People born male should not be able to compete in females sports. Apart from that, they should have every other right that everyone else has.
All the chat about toilets and changing rooms is nonsense.


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I was of a similar view but I read someone's comment elsewhere where the observation was made a guy transition into would be on hormone treatment which would affect his sporting ability. Don't know how true this is, the whole thing is a minefield to me.

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Originally Posted by The dalmeny

I was of a similar view but I read someone's comment elsewhere where the observation was made a guy transition into would be on hormone treatment which would affect his sporting ability. Don't know how true this is, the whole thing is a minefield to me.

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men have larger lungs and hearts which means they get more oxygen into the bloodstream which helps in sport and is an unfair advantage, there is also evidence that hormone treatment has a negligible decrease in performance for sport

If you take every track and field event like 100m,200m, 400m, the long jump, high jump etc then there are examples of countless boys under 18 years of age all beating the women's world record

I'm very laid back about it all and be what you want to be but women who have worked their whole life to achieve success in sport should not have to be beaten by people who have effectively been doping for years

I understand the arguments on both sides of the argument, but I really can't see any middle ground that would satisfy both sides. I've previously been involved as a union rep supporting transgender m to f and it's a minefield. It's not quite as black and white as racism where ensuring equal rights doesn't infringe on the rights of others.

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Originally Posted by The dalmeny

I was of a similar view but I read someone's comment elsewhere where the observation was made a guy transition into would be on hormone treatment which would affect his sporting ability. Don't know how true this is, the whole thing is a minefield to me.

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If an athlete goes through the change at age 20 then they have had 6 years of restoring flowing through them where their muscle would have grown in ways that is impossible for a female. That advantage can never be taken away.
Sport is the only area where I believe the same rights can’t be given though. And it’s not unusual either. Sport gets lots of scope to operate outside normal employment law already and this is just one other area.


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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

I understand the arguments on both sides of the argument, but I really can't see any middle ground that would satisfy both sides. I've previously been involved as a union rep supporting transgender m to f and it's a minefield. It's not quite as black and white as racism where ensuring equal rights doesn't infringe on the rights of others.

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It is difficult but not impossible. It won’t be solved by making new laws or tinkering with the existing ones, we will get there by going through the patient process of changing social attitudes to accommodate a section of our society who feel marginalised It’s a pity we have to describe it as an argument with sides when we all want the same things, to be accepted by and feel comfortable with our fellow human beings. When the majority recognise that is all that is being asked for here then solutions will follow.
Even questions surrounding sport are not insurmountable and they many be skewing the argument rather more than it should. There is nothing that can’t be solved by applying goodwill and common sense. It’s doable.

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Originally Posted by marinello59

It is difficult but not impossible. It won’t be solved by making new laws or tinkering with the existing ones, we will get there by going through the patient process of changing social attitudes to accommodate a section of our society who feel marginalised It’s a pity we have to describe it as an argument with sides when we all want the same things, to be accepted by and feel comfortable with our fellow human beings. When the majority recognise that is all that is being asked for here then solutions will follow.
Even questions surrounding sport are not insurmountable and they many be skewing the argument rather more than it should. There is nothing that can’t be solved by applying goodwill and common sense. It’s doable.

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Boom.

That's exactly it. Societal change can't be forced by legislation, only encouraged. The trans debate has so many echoes of past and current debates around marginalised groups, whether it be women, ethnic minorities, sex workers, drug use, LGB rights.

Progress has been made in those issues by allowing mainstream society to come to terms with them in a sensible and mature fashion.

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Originally Posted by WeeRussell

Again, IF she had said something deserving of criticism, your second part is irrelevant.

Hitler wrote a famous book. It doesn't mean his political views shouldn't be criticised.

As I said, I think I am on JK's side, from what little I know about it. My point is how many books she's written, or how much work she has done for charity doesn't make her immune to stick for controversial views. In fact, there are some that would argue that being in the public eye means she has a bigger responsibility than most in being careful about what she says.

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Perhaps a fraction extreme to bring Hitler into a debate about J K Rowling's views on biology? :wink:

I would take your point IF she had said something that to any rational-minded person WAS offensive, but she didn't. In this instance I don't think it's the person in the public eye who needs to be careful about what they said but those who see them as fair game because they're in the public eye yet use their own incognito identities to lambast them.

This kind of nonsense seems especially prevalent at Edinburgh Uni just now:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...-row-sr9vr3z99

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Originally Posted by marinello59

It is difficult but not impossible. It won’t be solved by making new laws or tinkering with the existing ones, we will get there by going through the patient process of changing social attitudes to accommodate a section of our society who feel marginalised It’s a pity we have to describe it as an argument with sides when we all want the same things, to be accepted by and feel comfortable with our fellow human beings. When the majority recognise that is all that is being asked for here then solutions will follow.
Even questions surrounding sport are not insurmountable and they many be skewing the argument rather more than it should. There is nothing that can’t be solved by applying goodwill and common sense. It’s doable.

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I've not come across examples of trans-men attempting to compete in male sporting events, but that's presumably because they stand a great deal less chance of being successful (depending on the sport of course), but overall what would be the fairest way to accommodate this sector of society in sport? Specific trans events/Olympics etc? Or is that likely to marginalise things further?

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Originally Posted by He's here!

I've not come across examples of trans-men attempting to compete in male sporting events, but that's presumably because they stand a great deal less chance of being successful (depending on the sport of course), but overall what would be the fairest way to accommodate this sector of society in sport? Specific trans events/Olympics etc? Or is that likely to marginalise things further?

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Compete in men’s sport.


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Originally Posted by He's here!

Perhaps a fraction extreme to bring Hitler into a debate about J K Rowling's views on biology? :wink:

I would take your point IF she had said something that to any rational-minded person WAS offensive, but she didn't. In this instance I don't think it's the person in the public eye who needs to be careful about what they said but those who see them as fair game because they're in the public eye yet use their own incognito identities to lambast them.

This kind of nonsense seems especially prevalent at Edinburgh Uni just now:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...-row-sr9vr3z99

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What does the rest of the article say, ie the bit behind the paywall? Presumably, there's comment from the "attackers".

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Perhaps a fraction extreme to bring Hitler into a debate about J K Rowling's views on biology? :wink:

I would take your point IF she had said something that to any rational-minded person WAS offensive, but she didn't. In this instance I don't think it's the person in the public eye who needs to be careful about what they said but those who see them as fair game because they're in the public eye yet use their own incognito identities to lambast them.

This kind of nonsense seems especially prevalent at Edinburgh Uni just now:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...-row-sr9vr3z99

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Perhaps. But it felt like an extreme example was required to get through to you... the point still doesn't seem to have landed so I'm happy to leave it there.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

I've not come across examples of trans-men attempting to compete in male sporting events, but that's presumably because they stand a great deal less chance of being successful (depending on the sport of course), but overall what would be the fairest way to accommodate this sector of society in sport? Specific trans events/Olympics etc? Or is that likely to marginalise things further?

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http://https://www.them.us/story/chr...olympic-trials


https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/04/0...-fair-compete/

Fair enough. https://t.co/MmbUUnbbo0


Talking of 'woke' 😁😁😁




































Please note, these are not the real pictures 😉

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Fair enough. https://t.co/MmbUUnbbo0


Talking of 'woke' ������




































Please note, these are not the real pictures ��

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So, so difficult to decide whether Jenkyns or Dorries is thicker. :bitchy:

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Originally Posted by marinello59

It is difficult but not impossible. It won’t be solved by making new laws or tinkering with the existing ones, we will get there by going through the patient process of changing social attitudes to accommodate a section of our society who feel marginalised It’s a pity we have to describe it as an argument with sides when we all want the same things, to be accepted by and feel comfortable with our fellow human beings. When the majority recognise that is all that is being asked for here then solutions will follow.
Even questions surrounding sport are not insurmountable and they many be skewing the argument rather more than it should. There is nothing that can’t be solved by applying goodwill and common sense. It’s doable.

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I get where you're coming from but I'm still not convinced. I think there's more to being a woman or a man than looking or feeling the part and because of that we might see more acceptance of trans gender people and I sincerely hope we do, but I think transphobia is more complicated than homophobia or racism simply because not all of the the group they want to be equal to believe they belong in that group. Homosexuals are Homosexuals and are accepted as Homosexuals by Homosexuals, ethnic minorities are ethnic minorities and are accepted as ethnic minorities by ethnic minorities and equality is a completely different subject. To achieve equality you first have to be accepted by the group you claim to belong to, with trans gender people that's unfortunately a long way off and is unlikely to change. Like I said earlier, there has to be some middle ground, but for trans gender people looking for equality that is a paradox because accepting the middle ground would be accepting they are something they don't want to be.

Not sure I've articulated that very well.

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

I get where you're coming from but I'm still not convinced. I think there's more to being a woman or a man than looking or feeling the part and because of that we might see more acceptance of trans gender people and I sincerely hope we do, but I think transphobia is more complicated than homophobia or racism simply because not all of the the group they want to be equal to believe they belong in that group. Homosexuals are Homosexuals and are accepted as Homosexuals by Homosexuals, ethnic minorities are ethnic minorities and are accepted as ethnic minorities by ethnic minorities and equality is a completely different subject. To achieve equality you first have to be accepted by the group you claim to belong to, with trans gender people that's unfortunately a long way off and is unlikely to change. Like I said earlier, there has to be some middle ground, but for trans gender people looking for equality that is a paradox because accepting the middle ground would be accepting they are something they don't want to be.

Not sure I've articulated that very well.

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Is the part in bold entirely true in the case of people identifying as bisexual?

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Originally Posted by CapitalGreen

Is the part in bold entirely true in the case of people identifying as bisexual?

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I don’t see how not. But are homosexuals not a ‘different’ group to bisexuals in any case?