Hands On Hibs - No Substance. Unhelpful Voice

I'd love to be wrong, but I can't see this proposed model delivering fan ownership at Hibs, at least within five years.

I can see a lot of people buying shares, and feeling that they have a stake in the club, which is good, though ownership and control will stay in the same hands.

Maybe I'm cynical, but I do question what the ultimate aim of all this is.

I believe Leanne Dempster is genuine in wishing fans to become more involved in the running of the club.

Not sure about STF & RP. Neither have historically been big on talking about their own visions for the club.

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Originally Posted by matty_f

That's a disgrace, it really is.

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I could not agree more

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Originally Posted by Dashing Bob S

I'd love to be wrong, but I can't see this proposed model delivering fan ownership at Hibs, at least within five years.

I can see a lot of people buying shares, and feeling that they have a stake in the club, which is good, though ownership and control will stay in the same hands.

Maybe I'm cynical, but I do question what the ultimate aim of all this is.

I believe Leanne Dempster is genuine in wishing fans to become more involved in the running of the club.

Not sure about STF & RP. Neither have historically been big on talking about their own visions for the club.

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I would also agree here.

I doubt many people take HoH seriously. Attention seeking nonsense from start to finish.

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Originally Posted by CallumLaidlaw

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...b94edb2f0f.jpg

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Ah, this takes me back to my brief flirtation with the Workers Revolutionary Party back in the eighties and the warm glow of nostalgia is currently wrapped round me like a blanket. We'd produce fliers containing outlandish claims and deflect criticism by pointing out the good works we were doing. (Youth skill centres although I'm not sure we actually trained anybody.) Are HoH a bunch of Trotskyists? Can we revive the Loony lefty label just for them? Is Wolfie Smith involved? We should be told.
Of course back in the day we really were loony lefties. Mark Lawrenson was the football expert for the Party newspaper. HoH are going to have to up their game to top that for loonyness.

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Originally Posted by Dashing Bob S

I don't think some of their utterances or confrontational style has been helpful. However, I think they are right to highlight that if the 51% threshold of fan in shares is not reached, then all investors are simply (at least in the short term) contributing to the running costs of the club. Fine, if those are players transfers/contracts, many will invest gladly and should be encouraged to do so. If though, the running costs are bank loans etc, then it becomes a different issue. Many fans will baulk at paying this, and rightly so. More clarification and guarantees needed.

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Makes no odds. If the debt is paid from say season tickets then less of that money goes to players. It's all just income. Arguing about what pot it comes from is pointless.

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Originally Posted by Dashing Bob S

I'd love to be wrong, but I can't see this proposed model delivering fan ownership at Hibs, at least within five years.

I can see a lot of people buying shares, and feeling that they have a stake in the club, which is good, though ownership and control will stay in the same hands.

Maybe I'm cynical, but I do question what the ultimate aim of all this is.

I believe Leanne Dempster is genuine in wishing fans to become more involved in the running of the club.

Not sure about STF & RP. Neither have historically been big on talking about their own visions for the club.

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Thats just wrong. 51% will go to fan ownership (or ownership away from STF) STF hands it over...says raise 2.5m for it..then i'll give you the 2.5m back...and people still think he is at it?

STF has just pretty much halved our debt.

If some of my share purchase money goes towards paying him back then so be it.

If the share issue enables a strengthening of the squad, a strengthening of the clubs financial positions and a greater supporter influence in the running of the club then it's win-win for me

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Originally Posted by Andy74

Makes no odds. If the debt is paid from say season tickets then less of that money goes to players. It's all just income. Arguing about what pot it comes from is pointless.

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Exactly. HoH were desperate to find something, anything to trash the share offer. I don't think many people will be foolish enough to think they really have found the smoking gun here.
It doesn't matter if it's fan ownership or not, bills other than the first team players wages have to be paid. Are there really people out there who think fan ownership means the fans money which we can choose to put in or not should only go towards first team wages whilst somebody else picks up the tab for the rest? I reckon most Hibs fans are brighter than that.
Playing class politics by constantly mentioning STF's millionaire status is mildly amusing though. Power to the.........Ach, whatever.:greengrin

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Originally Posted by matty_f

That's a disgrace, it really is.

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A disgrace and an embarrassment............

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Originally Posted by Andy74

Makes no odds. If the debt is paid from say season tickets then less of that money goes to players. It's all just income. Arguing about what pot it comes from is pointless.

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They may as well just add another £200 onto a season ticket then? This should be about getting the club into the hands of the fans. Not just paying more for the running costs of the club and getting nothing back. If this goes ahead and Farmer and Petrie are still running the show, then what's the point?

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Originally Posted by Steve20

They may as well just add another £200 onto a season ticket then? This should be about getting the club into the hands of the fans. Not just paying more for the running costs of the club and getting nothing back. If this goes ahead and Farmer and Petrie are still running the show, then what's the point?

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Who says your getting nothing back? If you want a share certificate, the option is there, go to an IFA.

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Originally Posted by Steve20

They may as well just add another £200 onto a season ticket then? This should be about getting the club into the hands of the fans. If this goes ahead and Farmer and Petrie are still running the show, then what's the point?

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We have the chance to own 51% should we choose to do so. Do that and the club is ours. I assume you supported BuyHibs? The HSL scheme is pretty similar but rather than the money raised going to the existing shareholders it is going to find our team going forward. On that basis I would expect BuyHibs to support this as they continually stated their aim was about more than just removing Petrie.
I personally have doubts this will be taken up fully because I'm not so sure the appetite is really there. But we do know the price and we do know what we have to do if we want to own the club.

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Originally Posted by Steve20

They may as well just add another £200 onto a season ticket then? This should be about getting the club into the hands of the fans. Not just paying more for the running costs of the club and getting nothing back. If this goes ahead and Farmer and Petrie are still running the show, then what's the point?

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51% is available to the fans. This is pretty simple stuff.

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Originally Posted by Steve20

They may as well just add another £200 onto a season ticket then? This should be about getting the club into the hands of the fans. Not just paying more for the running costs of the club and getting nothing back. If this goes ahead and Farmer and Petrie are still running the show, then what's the point?

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You might be right that for some (maybe even many), fan shareholding and subscription are only viable if they know in advance that it will give them a controlling share. There will be others who want to own shares in Hibs, and support them financially, whether it is as part of a 30% fan holding or a 51% holding. If a sufficient number of fans are willing to do that, then the 51% will be fulfilled; if not, then we'll have established that there isn't really the hunger for fan ownership necessary to make it a viable model for our future.:dunno:

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Originally Posted by Winston Ingram

Who says your getting nothing back? If you want a share certificate, the option is there, go to an IFA.

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Getting nothing back? Except as you rightly say H, the Share Certificate, the right to attend the AGM and make your voice heard and know that you own a bit of the club you support.

I'm buying direct from the club. I know I'll never see that £200 again but it doesn't really matter does it?

HoH are just a bunch of whiners. And it's the same embittered individuals over and over.
If it wasn't this, it'd be the price of the pies or something like that.

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Originally Posted by Steve20

They may as well just add another £200 onto a season ticket then? This should be about getting the club into the hands of the fans. Not just paying more for the running costs of the club and getting nothing back. If this goes ahead and Farmer and Petrie are still running the show, then what's the point?

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That works for me a single payment so no grief from MrsTH, not bothering with an IFA and a share certificate for the wall. I would own a bit of Hibs and I am a fan so that box is ticked. As a future shareholder I am happy with the way the club is going and if the Board felt my investment was needed to support the team in any way, either through on field investment or covering running costs, I would have no issue with that. The single biggest issue I have with this process is finding an IFA to buy some shares.

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Originally Posted by HOH

........the club's Chief Executive confirmed to HOH at Friday's meeting that some of this money will be used to repay the debt to the holding company (Farmer/Petrie).

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Here's the answer given at the recent Q&A with LD........

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Q - What exactly will all monies raised be used for? Playing staff, equipment, wages, etc?

A – It would be used in the running of the football department, so that’s wages, equipment, players, etc.

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Bearing in mind that HOH have previous when it comes to making things up I know who I'm happy to believe.

And let's face it, whether you take your advice from an IFA or from HOH, we all know how much money we're going to get back in this deal. That's what happens with emotional investments!!

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Originally Posted by Steve20

They may as well just add another £200 onto a season ticket then? This should be about getting the club into the hands of the fans. Not just paying more for the running costs of the club and getting nothing back. If this goes ahead and Farmer and Petrie are still running the show, then what's the point?

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The point is it's a way to do both.

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Originally Posted by Andy74

Makes no odds. If the debt is paid from say season tickets then less of that money goes to players. It's all just income. Arguing about what pot it comes from is pointless.

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:agree:

It does make me wonder why Hibs felt the need to embellish this with the 'sporting ambition' phrase. It's a classic Petrie comment - sounds good, but so vague that it makes the more cynical amongst us raise eyebrows.

I also feel that, on the back of big losses, the timing of this share issue is wrong. I've bored myself to death saying that the club should have put everything on hold and focused on getting promotion above all else. Hibs are not in a stable financial position right now, making the environment for this share issue less than ideal.

HoH are wrong but I think the club doesn't help itself at times.

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Originally Posted by jacomoseven

:agree:

It does make me wonder why Hibs felt the need to embellish this with the 'sporting ambition' phrase. It's a classic Petrie comment - sounds good, but so vague that it makes the more cynical amongst us raise eyebrows.

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Instead of just accepting it at face value.

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I also feel that, on the back of big losses, the timing of this share issue is wrong. I've bored myself to death saying that the club should have put everything on hold and focused on getting promotion above all else.

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Do you think this'll have a negative effect on AS and his squad? What if an extra couple of players have already been budgeted for in the January window in anticipation of the share income?

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Hibs are not in a stable financial position right now, making the environment for this share issue less than ideal.

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Do you think anyone buying shares will be doing so as an investment (other than emotional)? SPL, championship, whatever - outwith the ugly sisters, there's no money to be made from Scottish football.

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HoH are wrong but I think the club doesn't help itself at times.

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I think that the club are currently playing a blinder.

And please don't take my post as a personal attack (as you usually do). I simply happen to disagree with every point you make - is that OK?

You do get the impression some supposed Hibs fans absolutely detest the club and are never happier than when we are struggling so they can have a pop. Incredible attack IMO.

The HSL proposal is basically a fans cooperative. We pull our resources and have a say in the club through our collective strength. If enough fans join the collective we will be the biggest shareholder and will control the club through our collective shareholding. Im struggling to see where the con is in this. If fans choose not to put in their cash then we continue under the stewardship of STF with less debt than before paying less interest than before. Can't see what's not to like here. HoH appear to want STF a to hand over the club and pay off the debt for nothing in return.

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

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I think that the club are currently playing a blinder.

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Absolutely. The fans who contribute get a nice warm feeling and the club gets extra money in the kitty.

People should realise that trying to discredit this approach are just making themselves look daft.

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

Instead of just accepting it at face value.



Do you think this'll have a negative effect on AS and his squad? What if an extra couple of players have already been budgeted for in the January window in anticipation of the share income?



Do you think anyone buying shares will be doing so as an investment (other than emotional)? SPL, championship, whatever - outwith the ugly sisters, there's no money to be made from Scottish football.



I think that the club are currently playing a blinder.

And please don't take my post as a personal attack (as you usually do). I simply happen to disagree with every point you make - is that OK?

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Ha! Healthy disagreement all fine by me. :wink:

The main point is that the current owner is set on change and this is his chosen way of achieving that. Personally I am happy to take the club at face value on this and the attacks on STF's integrity are wholly unjustified. HoH are clutching at straws.

Is this the ideal environment and time to launch this share issue though? No I don't think it is, and if I was LD (who was, it seems, hired to make this happen) I would have argued strongly that plans be pushed back until the club was back in the top tier.

Given that this share issue seems to be open ended with no specific time limit, I don't understand the need to launch now.

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Originally Posted by jacomoseven

Ha! Healthy disagreement all fine by me. :wink:

The main point is that the current owner is set on change and this is his chosen way of achieving that. Personally I am happy to take the club at face value on this and the attacks on STF's integrity are wholly unjustified. HoH are clutching at straws.

Is this the ideal environment and time to launch this share issue though? No I don't think it is, and if I was LD (who was, it seems, hired to make this happen) I would have argued strongly that plans be pushed back until the club was back in the top tier.

Given that this share issue seems to be open ended with no specific time limit, I don't understand the need to launch now.

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Whatever way you approach fan ownership it won't actually happen until fans come up with the money. It will take a long long time for Hibs' scheme to come to fruition - many many birthday and Christmass presents, but at some point the fans will own Hibs, which is a pretty nice thought, don't you think?

Anyone thinking that fan ownership is a way of replacing Farmer and Petrie in the short term can dream on - it will never happen in those timescales.

And as to you last point, the sooner started, the sooner Hibs can start using the cash and the sooner fans will finally own Hibs - nothing is acheived by holding back.

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Originally Posted by SunshineOnLeith

Hands on Hibs is about 4 or 5 morons with nothing better to do than shout and bawl like toddlers until someone pays them attention. Anyone who takes them seriously is every bit as stupid as they are.

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Can someone help me out here, I have lost track of those involved in the various groups. Would someone be kind enough to name the head honchos in HOH and give me a few details on their back ground.
Cheers

Seems to me that the HoH campaign seem to be desperate to create a war with the club and find fault in absolutely everything the club try to do. That heist poster is an embarrassment. As someone quite rightly mentioned above, it now seems to be more about their own egos and personal agendas rather than doing what is right for hibs as a club.

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Originally Posted by CallumLaidlaw

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...b94edb2f0f.jpg

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I'll ignore what they've done with Dempster....

The remainder is a complete embarrassment. They've not even had the professionalism to change the credits near the bottom. I can clearly read Gene Hackman, Danny DeVito and Delroy Lindo's names. Amateur.

Some general facts to do with as you wish:

1) STF regularly gives away huge sums of his personal fortune for "no return". This is called philanthropy. In fact, he has considerable previous for it....:aok:

2) It's very clear to anyone with eyes and a semi-operational brain that nobody is "making money" from football these days, with very few notable exceptions...however, try as you may to convince your logical thinking side that this is in fact bollocks...

3) Us Hibs fans know we will never make money from the club. We also know (lets be honest folks) that we are unlikely to win hellish much any time soon. We're not really in it for the glory or the money now are we? We're in it, cause it's the right thing to do....:aok:


....I am unclear as to where any confusion exists on this offer Hibs have come up with. It's not mandatory, nobody is being frogmarched to the cashline machine to withdraw £18.75 a month and hand it over to the baddies in green.....big bad STF doesn't need the cash and probably realised a long time ago he'd never see all that money back. He doesn't NEED it. He doesnt need the aggro either...

However, if there's **** all on the telly and nae good conspiracies to discuss, we can always make one up for fun eh :rolleyes::agree:

Ach **** it, am off to sign over £18.75 for 133,333 months. There we are. Sorted. I'll sort oor future with one DD that lasts for the next 11,111 years. Barry. Club now mine. Woohoo. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Bad Martini

Some general facts to do with as you wish:

1) STF regularly gives away huge sums of his personal fortune for "no return". This is called philanthropy. In fact, he has considerable previous for it....:aok:

2) It's very clear to anyone with eyes and a semi-operational brain that nobody is "making money" from football these days, with very few notable exceptions...however, try as you may to convince your logical thinking side that this is in fact bollocks...

3) Us Hibs fans know we will never make money from the club. We also know (lets be honest folks) that we are unlikely to win hellish much any time soon. We're not really in it for the glory or the money now are we? We're in it, cause it's the right thing to do....:aok:


....I am unclear as to where any confusion exists on this offer Hibs have come up with. It's not mandatory, nobody is being frogmarched to the cashline machine to withdraw £18.75 a month and hand it over to the baddies in green.....big bad STF doesn't need the cash and probably realised a long time ago he'd never see all that money back. He doesn't NEED it. He doesnt need the aggro either...

However, if there's **** all on the telly and nae good conspiracies to discuss, we can always make one up for fun eh :rolleyes::agree:

Ach **** it, am off to sign over £18.75 for 133,333 months. There we are. Sorted. I'll sort oor future with one DD that lasts for the next 11,111 years. Barry. Club now mine. Woohoo. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

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