Scottish Independence

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Originally Posted by Miguel

I'm a lifelong Labour voter, but, having heard the crap coming out of the Tories this week, I am seriously considering voting 'Yes' in the referendum if that is going to be the future.
I'd be interested to hear other's thoughts.

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Always been an SNP voter myself (of course this isnae about any party or any person), and I will of course be voting YES. Here's hoping you and many others considering the idea will vote YES when the time comes, I ken a few that have changed their way of thinking and will now be voting YES.

I don't have a major issue with the concept of independence per se, but I cannot stand the SNP and the thought of independence under them scares the life out of me.

If the referendum was held tomorrow, I'd be voting 'no' and it would take quite a bit of persuasion for me to change my mind.

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Originally Posted by FalkirkHibee

I don't have a major issue with the concept of independence per se, but I cannot stand the SNP and the thought of independence under them scares the life out of me.

If the referendum was held tomorrow, I'd be voting 'no' and it would take quite a bit of persuasion for me to change my mind.

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This isnae about the SNP or Alex Salmond, people need tae get that out of their heids, it's no about a party or a person. The vote is for independence no a government, the SNP winnae suddenly just become the government just because people vote YES. What makes you think the SNP will even exist post referendum should the result be YES. I've always voted SNP as I see them as a means tae and end, that disane mean even if they exist efter I would vote for them, in fact I disagree with them on a number of things but that's another issue. I would imagine the traditional parties would be around in one guise or another and most people will still vote according tae their political leanings for any Scottish government.

I've been an inactive member of the SNP for a few years. I'm up and about now supporting the Yes campaign, though. If (when - please!) Scotland becomes independent, I am not sure who I will vote for. I look forward to that dilemma! Bottom line is that there is absolutely no rule that independence means the SNP in charge.

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Originally Posted by AberGreen

Whenever the Tories are in power, we are ruled by a government we didn't vote for. That's roughly 50% of the time. 1 Tory MP in Scotland presently so not even marginal. If you take the Scottish vote out of every election since the War, the result would have been the same. We do not have a say in our future currently and are ruled by London and the south east of England. That is the biggest argument for Independence IMO. Scottish issues should be governed by Scotland to benefit Scotland. Yes we will make mistakes but will they be as costly as the mistakes made in Westminster? I'll gladly take that chance.

Incidentally, in an independent Scotland, Labour would dominate and probably have a near monopoly on government. That's probably the biggest argument against independence.

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Well, the last point you make is, at the least, debatable.
The SNP won an absolute majority in the 2011 Scottish election. Can't remember the exact figures, but Labour way outperformed SNP at the Westminster poll the previous year. In an independent Scotland, I would expect the result to be closer to a Scottish election result. I would certainly expect the SNP to win the first post indie vote - win or lose.

A quick add: don't know if it was ever party policy, but the assumption used to be that, having achieved its aim, the SNP would dissolve itself, but I don't think that will happen.
My belief is that the SNP would hold together, at least for a while, and the leadership would tack to the right to try and assure the markets.
The SNP is a coalition and it would eventually split.
I have relatives who are SNP and view Salmond as a necessary evil to achieve independence and allow space for some sort of Scandanavian social democracy.

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Originally Posted by Miguel

A quick add: don't know if it was ever party policy, but the assumption used to be that, having achieved its aim, the SNP would dissolve itself, but I don't think that will happen. My belief is that the SNP would hold together, at least for a while, and the leadership would tack to the right to try and assure the markets. The SNP is a coalition and it would eventually split. I have relatives who are SNP and view Salmond as a necessary evil to achieve independence and allow space for some sort of Scandanavian social democracy.

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There would be no need to 'assure the markets' as the independence the SNP seek is in name only. Monetarily we would be yoked to the remains of the UK.

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Originally Posted by Miguel

A quick add: don't know if it was ever party policy, but the assumption used to be that, having achieved its aim, the SNP would dissolve itself, but I don't think that will happen.
My belief is that the SNP would hold together, at least for a while, and the leadership would tack to the right to try and assure the markets.
The SNP is a coalition and it would eventually split.
I have relatives who are SNP and view Salmond as a necessary evil to achieve independence and allow space for some sort of Scandanavian social democracy.

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I reckon the SNP would split up on issues like the EU and the monarchy.

Always have been, and always will be a fundamental nationalist. I cringe every time I see an 'argument' that we will be £5 a week better or worse off - are we really that shallow?

Just one further point on a post independence Scotland, no party will dominate because we won't adopt the antiquitated fpp voting system. This will likely mean coalition or minority governments for the forseeable future.

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Originally Posted by Desperate Dan

This isnae about the SNP or Alex Salmond, people need tae get that out of their heids, it's no about a party or a person. The vote is for independence no a government, the SNP winnae suddenly just become the government just because people vote YES. What makes you think the SNP will even exist post referendum should the result be YES. I've always voted SNP as I see them as a means tae and end, that disane mean even if they exist efter I would vote for them, in fact I disagree with them on a number of things but that's another issue. I would imagine the traditional parties would be around in one guise or another and most people will still vote according tae their political leanings for any Scottish government.

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Spot on.

I'm from a traditional Labour voting family but will be voting YES for the opportunity to steer our own course rather than have our govt chosen by whoever the South of England votes in.

This is too big a chance to miss - Vote YES.

Definitely a Yes vote from me.

It is the most natural thing in the world for countries to run their own lives and I have always found it rather strange thst people in Scotland ask people from from another country to run their life for them.

It is far more than that though as once you control the levers of power you can then shape and mould society in a way the people of that country decide.

This is once in a lifetime opportunity to build a far fairer and equitable society with Scottish solutions to Scottish problems.

I have been quite impressed by the performance of the Scottish Parliament since its inception and I would be very much in favour to increase its power to that of every other normal country and Scotland would be a far better place for it.

I'd like to know if there are any SNP folks here who intend voting no next year?

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Originally Posted by Aldo

At this moment in time I'll be voting no as for me there are still to many grey areas when it comes to a number if issues.

Currency
Member of NATO
European Union
Number of jobs lost as a result of independence (mainly defence Faslane/Rosyth/Coulport)
Import/export
I am sure there are others that haven't been answered.

I appreciate and respect others and their opinions but I really cannot see the benefits and personally believe that Salmond is pushing it so he can say it was HIM that got Scotland independence. There are too many questions unanswered for me. But Heay what do I know.

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aldo,
you really ought to start viewing SNP's agenda re everything above. With the exception of your Rosyth question, they've already all been answered by the party.

Definitely a yes from me too - the chance to declare ourselves an independent nation is one I hope we don't miss.

Even if the 'No' vote wins I personally feel that independence is inevitable - I hope I live to see it.

A yes vote makes perfect sense to me. Not sure tho if we will get another crack at this , due to the way our parliament is geared for no overall control, so i reckon we need to grab our chance.

I can understand labour not wanting us to go but for the Tories it's financial. If we were a liability , now or in near future, then Davie C would be printing scottish passports fairly sharpish.

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Originally Posted by Hibernia Na Eir

aldo, you really ought to start viewing SNP's agenda re everything above. With the exception of your Rosyth question, they've already all been answered by the party.

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Originally Posted by Hibernia Na Eir

aldo,
you really ought to start viewing SNP's agenda re everything above. With the exception of your Rosyth question, they've already all been answered by the party.

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He has answered most of them by making the case for Devo max. Salmond has his ultimate goal ready to be reached out and grabbed and he has bottled it.
Currency? Best we leave that to Westminster to keep control of. Bottled.
Head of State. Let's base that in London. The fairer and more equitable society Independence will bring will have a figurehead decided by the hereditary principle. Bottled.
Defence? An Independent Scotland will take a clear and principled stand on Nuclear weapons by kicking them off our soil. We will however apply to join Nato so that we can shelter under it's nuclear umbrella. Bottled.
I don't think the SNP will disband if we vote Yes next year, there will still be a place for them in Scottish politics. Vote No and I reckon they will be ripping themselves to pieces for years with Salmond ending up generally reviled. I just hope that no matter which way it goes that the majority of us accept the result and move on without rancour.

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Originally Posted by Desperate Dan

This isnae about the SNP or Alex Salmond, people need tae get that out of their heids,

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Of course you're right, but many people hate Alex Salmond more than they love the idea of independence.

It's up to the Yes campaign to get that out of folks heids.

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Originally Posted by marinello59

He has answered most of them by making the case for Devo max. Salmond has his ultimate goal ready to be reached out and grabbed and he has bottled it.
Currency? Best we leave that to Westminster to keep control of. Bottled.
Head of State. Let's base that in London. The fairer and more equitable society Independence will bring will have a figurehead decided by the hereditary principle. Bottled.
Defence? An Independent Scotland will take a clear and principled stand on Nuclear weapons by kicking them off our soil. We will however apply to join Nato so that we can shelter under it's nuclear umbrella. Bottled.
I don't think the SNP will disband if we vote Yes next year, there will still be a place for them in Scottish politics. Vote No and I reckon they will be ripping themselves to pieces for years with Salmond ending up generally reviled. I just hope that no matter which way it goes that the majority of us accept the result and move on without rancour.

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interesting point you made on SNP if they win yes vote next year. I'm intrigued to see how they carry on under an Indy state. I'd like to hear their take on this.

The independence that the SNP win wont be set in stone. I support a republic, I would prefer a Scottish currency at some point in the future, and even though I support EU membership at this moment I could easily be swayed the other way.

I dont agree with the SNP's policies in many areas but they would not be the government forever in an independent Scotland. I would rather be going to vote in an election on issues like the above without the cringeworthy "vote us tae keep the Tories oot!" message being the only campaign message given.

For me, next year is about voting yes to the opportunity to set our own path rather than sitting in the passsenger seat of a car that is travelling in a direction I really do not like.

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Originally Posted by Hainan Hibs

The independence that the SNP win wont be set in stone. I support a republic, I would prefer a Scottish currency at some point in the future, and even though I support EU membership at this moment I could easily be swayed the other way.

I dont agree with the SNP's policies in many areas but they would not be the government forever in an independent Scotland. I would rather be going to vote in an election on issues like the above without the cringeworthy "vote us tae keep the Tories oot!" message being the only campaign message given.

For me, next year is about voting yes to the opportunity to set our own path rather than sitting in the passsenger seat of a car that is travelling in a direction I really do not like.

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Correct, the independence issue needs tae be dealt with 1st. Like you I also favour a republic and a separation of currency/monetary control by the bank of England. If the referendum result is YES then I will vote accordingly efter that for which ever party best represents my views.

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Originally Posted by Hainan Hibs

I dont agree with the SNP's policies in many areas but they would not be the government forever in an independent Scotland. I would rather be going to vote in an election on issues like the above without the cringeworthy "vote us tae keep the Tories oot!" message being the only campaign message given.

For me, next year is about voting yes to the opportunity to set our own path rather than sitting in the passsenger seat of a car that is travelling in a direction I really do not like.

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Agreed, I'm sure I mentioned on an earlier thread, my folks have voted SNP for years as the want independence, I know for a fact that if achieved my mum will vote Tory or similar and I think my dad will go labour (probably)

As for me, I'll go with whoever best fits my views at the time (and apart from Indy, the SNP don't currently fit)

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Originally Posted by Hibernia Na Eir

interesting point you made on SNP if they win yes vote next year. I'm intrigued to see how they carry on under an Indy state. I'd like to hear their take on this.

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First and foremost they would carry on as their attitude will be 'To the victor goes the spoils.' Where would their front line politicians go? They are now used to having their hands on the levers of power and that will be hard for them to give up. I reckon they will challenge Labour for the centre left vote by further wrapping themselves in the saltire and claiming to be the only party that has always put Scotland first.
The Tories may have less problems. The agricultural community in the SNP's North East heartlands were solidly Tory until one of their own, Hamish Watt, won a seat. Salmond won his seat from the Buchan bulldog, Albert McQuarrie. Mad Mitch of Aden fame was an Aberdeenshire MP as well. Both bonkers but well loved up there. An Independent Scotland could well result in a big Tory revival. How ironic would that be?

Everyone seems to think everything must happen on day one after a positive yes vote.

What's the rush?

There will obviously be a day one situation but things like currency, defence et al don't need to be 'finalized' for day one.

An independent Scotland will be a small but very powerful nation in every way. We will be in a position to court our suitors.

As a wee pretend nation we're no bad, as an independent nation the world is ours to be what every other independent nation can be, but better because we're actually very good.

We have nothing to fear but our own limited ambitions.

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Originally Posted by BroxburnHibee

Definitely a yes from me too - the chance to declare ourselves an independent nation is one I hope we don't miss.

Even if the 'No' vote wins I personally feel that independence is inevitable - I hope I live to see it.

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I agree - i think there is an inevitably about independence now - much like devolution in 79. I suspect that there might be a narrow no vote now and a landslide independence vote in a generations time. The tories probably aren't as stupid now as they were then, so Devo Max is coming if we vote no.

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Originally Posted by Hainan Hibs

The independence that the SNP win wont be set in stone. I support a republic, I would prefer a Scottish currency at some point in the future, and even though I support EU membership at this moment I could easily be swayed the other way.

I dont agree with the SNP's policies in many areas but they would not be the government forever in an independent Scotland. I would rather be going to vote in an election on issues like the above without the cringeworthy "vote us tae keep the Tories oot!" message being the only campaign message given.

For me, next year is about voting yes to the opportunity to set our own path rather than sitting in the passsenger seat of a car that is travelling in a direction I really do not like.

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This, not voting for independence because you don't like Salmond and the SNP is a bit like not buying a house because you don't like the wallpaper.

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Originally Posted by Hiberlin

This, not voting for independence because you don't like Salmond and the SNP is a bit like not buying a house because you don't like the wallpaper.

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Are many folk against independence just because they don't like Salmond and the SNP?

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Originally Posted by Beefster

Are many folk against independence just because they don't like Salmond and the SNP?

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There's one in post 32 :greengrin Seriously though I ken a few, managed tae persuade one though what the vote is about and it's no Salmond or the SNP. I will be doing my best tae make others see what the real issue is and if they still choose tae vote no then fair enough. There are some people who really need tae open there eyes though and look beyond Salmond and the SNP, if that's their only reason for voting no it's a very poor one.

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Originally Posted by Desperate Dan

There's one in post 32 :greengrin Seriously though I ken a few, managed tae persuade one though what the vote is about and it's no Salmond or the SNP. I will be doing my best tae make others see what the real issue is and if they still choose tae vote no then fair enough. There are some people who really need tae open there eyes though and look beyond Salmond and the SNP, if that's their only reason for voting no it's a very poor one.

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Well done, Dan.

Keep up the good work!

YES Scotland.