Newsnight fawning over Tories

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Originally Posted by GlesgaeHibby

We don't put nearly enough emphasis on science in this country.

I do agree that we need more emphasis on practical and vocational skills, but at the same time we need to do more to get kids interested in science.

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Sorry GH but you wouldn't believe the money and resources that are pumped into science in schools, perhaps things are different in Glasgow though. Things are different depending on the authority.

I'll give you an example, Technological Studies, in a country crying out for kids to get into engineering, you have really to live North of the Forth (or Falkirk) and within striking distance of the North Sea to get the chance to take this subject in schools. AFAIK the only school in the west teaching it was Drumchapel and I've herd it's been dropped there.

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Originally Posted by GlesgaeHibby

We don't put nearly enough emphasis on science in this country.

I do agree that we need more emphasis on practical and vocational skills, but at the same time we need to do more to get kids interested in science.

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You're right I suppose but despite getting a degree in Chemistry 8 years ago my son was unable to gain employment in the science field unless he wanted to teach. We were told the country was crying out for scientists. I emailed a number of politicians at the time and none of them had any useful suggestions as to the areas of science to seek jobs in.

The lad's in the pensions business now. A bit of a waste of skills and knowledge.

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Originally Posted by heretoday

You're right I suppose but despite getting a degree in Chemistry 8 years ago my son was unable to gain employment in the science field unless he wanted to teach. We were told the country was crying out for scientists. I emailed a number of politicians at the time and none of them had any useful suggestions as to the areas of science to seek jobs in.

The lad's in the pensions business now. A bit of a waste of skills and knowledge.

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I was always under the impression that going on to complete your PhD was pretty much a pre-requisite for anyone wanting to work in scientific areas.

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Originally Posted by Beefster

I was always under the impression that going on to complete your PhD was pretty much a pre-requisite for anyone wanting to work in scientific areas.

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Not of you just wanted a job in a lab.

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Originally Posted by heretoday

You're right I suppose but despite getting a degree in Chemistry 8 years ago my son was unable to gain employment in the science field unless he wanted to teach. We were told the country was crying out for scientists. I emailed a number of politicians at the time and none of them had any useful suggestions as to the areas of science to seek jobs in.

The lad's in the pensions business now. A bit of a waste of skills and knowledge.

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I graduated with a degree in Chemistry 5 years ago, and have had 2 lab based jobs since. My degree class isn't particularly good, and I had to do some ***** jobs beforehand, but with a wee bit of determination and hard work I finally got the job I wanted.

There are Science jobs out there, unfortunately there are students expecting to fall into a high paid job as soon as they graduate instead of looking to get their foot on the ladder.

Also, I wouldn't say your son is wasting his skills and knowledge, science graduates are highly sought after in many employment sectors because of our skills, such as problem solving and research abilities.

[QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by ginger_rice

TBH the way to improve the so called "failing" schools is to start to resource and fund appropriate subjects.

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Not possible in a system designed to make sure all kids get the same "opportunities" - a major flaw of the comprehensive system

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Why do we put such an emphasis on science and computing and business studies for example, why are we not spending more on practical subjects or vocational skills.

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'Unskilled' work will form a smaller and smaller proportion of the economy in years to come. IT skills are a pre-requisite for being able to live in the UK today, never mind get a job here - which are increasingly computerised. The notion of the tertiary economy is becoming a reality and Science will form the basis of the manufacturing that economies like ours will need to specialise in - mechanical, resource hungry manufacturing has permanently moved to the developing economies of China, India etc.

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Why do head teachers still feel the need to focus on league tables?

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To a minor extent, league tables are significant factors in parents decision making process, although I reckon that this effect is over-emphasised in the minds of school managers. The main reason, imo, is HMI/Ofsted and the fact that schools are accountable to the pen-pushing, wasteful and target-manic Local Authorities.

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Why are those kids who are less academically inclined expected to gain the same level of qualification as those who are, we surely shouldn't be expecting every single pupil to get 5 highers and go on to university?

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Socialism.

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And yes I agree that attitude to school is fostered at home, if you have parents who see the value in education then that normally although not always rubs off on the child, if you have parents who see no benefit (and benefit could be the correct word) in education and do not support their childs school this then has a detrimental effect, place a school in an area where that attitude prevails and what chance does a school have.

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Ne'er a truer word said...

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I'm convinced that more parental involvement will simply widen the gap between the "good" and "failing" schools.

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In any community with a failing school, there will be a minority of parents with the right ideas about kids, who send their kids there with serious reservations but no real choice (how many parents actually have a choice of more than 2 'acceptable' schools in their area?) Parents with more choice in the current system have that choice because they have the money to 'buy' their way in....(yet another negative effect of house-price inflation)

These are the parents who WILL attend PTA's and discuss discipline standards, who know who the criminals in the community are and also those who have fallen on hard times - and may be able to differentiate between the behavoural outcomes of these situations on the kids involved.

You wouldn't believe the size of the silent minority in some of the sink estates in the UK. This could be one way for them to make their voice heard...

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Originally Posted by Baw Baggio

I graduated with a degree in Chemistry 5 years ago, and have had 2 lab based jobs since. My degree class isn't particularly good, and I had to do some ***** jobs beforehand, but with a wee bit of determination and hard work I finally got the job I wanted.

There are Science jobs out there, unfortunately there are students expecting to fall into a high paid job as soon as they graduate instead of looking to get their foot on the ladder.

Also, I wouldn't say your son is wasting his skills and knowledge, science graduates are highly sought after in many employment sectors because of our skills, such as problem solving and research abilities.

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He wasn't expecting to "fall into a high paid job" at all.

He's doing fine. I just hoped he might be the one to discover a cure for cancer.

[QUOTE=IndieHibby;2427887]

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Not possible in a system designed to make sure all kids get the same "opportunities" - a major flaw of the comprehensive system

IMHO we actually don't have true comprehensive education in either England or Scotland yes all pupils should have the same opportunities but as well all pupils should have the opporunity to an education which suits their needs

'Unskilled' work will form a smaller and smaller proportion of the economy in years to come. IT skills are a pre-requisite for being able to live in the UK today, never mind get a job here - which are increasingly computerised. The notion of the tertiary economy is becoming a reality and Science will form the basis of the manufacturing that economies like ours will need to specialise in - mechanical, resource hungry manufacturing has permanently moved to the developing economies of China, India etc.


The knowledge based economy? Again in schools I'm not convinced that the subjects we teach are completely relevent, we herd kids into certain subjects by manipulating course choices towards the trendy subjects or those which are percieved to get schools up the league table. I teach pneumatics electronics and sytems control a subject which is being starved of funding and resources and is a subject which fits in neatly with your staement above

To a minor extent, league tables are significant factors in parents decision making process, although I reckon that this effect is over-emphasised in the minds of school managers. The main reason, imo, is HMI/Ofsted and the fact that schools are accountable to the pen-pushing, wasteful and target-manic Local Authorities.

Agree with that, but headteachers see it as more than minor I'm afraid!


Socialism.


Ah the S word socialism would merely give the pupils the opportunity to achieve not make that achievement mandatory IMHO

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I've visited some good well run schools in Essex by the way!

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Originally Posted by steakbake

It's a large cross to bear. CorrieGreens did it with admirably thick skin until he defected to Labour, though he may wish a right to reply on that.

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My voting card arrived today and I can't believe that I may well end up using it to vote Labour:boo hoo: It will probably be for the wrong reasons, ie sympathy for Brown over the "dead soldier letter" incident, or the fact that he probably hates the Nats as much as I do. I've bombed the Tories for working alongside the Nats at Holyrood (unforgivable for me). I joined the Conservative party over 20 years ago primarily because they were the key Unionist party, not so sure now. As for the Lib Dems, well John Barret has served Edinburgh West pretty well but sadly he is standing down. I'd not be to upset if they did well. Ideally if there was a Euro sceptical, Centre right, tough on crime party (UKIP anyone?) then they would probably get my vote, starting to get confused now.....basically anyone bar the Nats!

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Originally Posted by corrie greens

My voting card arrived today and I can't believe that I may well end up using it to vote Labour:boo hoo: It will probably be for the wrong reasons, ie sympathy for Brown over the "dead soldier letter" incident, or the fact that he probably hates the Nats as much as I do. I've bombed the Tories for working alongside the Nats at Holyrood (unforgivable for me). I joined the Conservative party over 20 years ago primarily because they were the key Unionist party, not so sure now. As for the Lib Dems, well John Barret has served Edinburgh West pretty well but sadly he is standing down. I'd not be to upset if they did well. Ideally if there was a Euro sceptical, Centre right, tough on crime party (UKIP anyone?) then they would probably get my vote, starting to get confused now.....basically anyone bar the Nats!

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Glad you took my post in the spirit it was intended!

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Originally Posted by ginger_rice

:agree::agree:

But there's a fourth R Relevence why do we teach kids Byron or Milton etc for instance, yes let them study clasical poetry if they are interested, this is one area where Curriculum for Excellence might just might get it right.

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What is 'irrelevant' about the work of Byron or Milton?

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Originally Posted by LiverpoolHibs

What is 'irrelevant' about the work of Byron or Milton?

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I'd say to the majority of 15/16 year olds very irrelevant. Honestly kids don't want to learn this, it causes them to switch off and leads to bad behaviuor in the classroom.

I've nothing aginst classical literature or poetry, I just reckon this would be better as a seperate specialised subject.

The majority of our kids need to learn basic grammar, spelling, how to write letters, essays and reports. All far more relevent to the work they may be asked to do upon leaving school.

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Originally Posted by ginger_rice

I'd say to the majority of 15/16 year olds very irrelevant. Honestly kids don't want to learn this, it causes them to switch off and leads to bad behaviuor in the classroom.

I've nothing aginst classical literature or poetry, I just reckon this would be better as a seperate specialised subject.

The majority of our kids need to learn basic grammar, spelling, how to write letters, essays and reports. All far more relevent to the work they may be asked to do upon leaving school.

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From my experience, the ability to talk in sentences would be a start.

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Originally Posted by Filled Rolls

From my experience, the ability to talk in sentences would be a start.

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That ability appears to stop at 13 and restart again at about 20!! Anyway we seem to be drifting onto a :hijack: situation here :wink:

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Originally Posted by ginger_rice

I'd say to the majority of 15/16 year olds very irrelevant. Honestly kids don't want to learn this, it causes them to switch off and leads to bad behaviuor in the classroom.

I've nothing aginst classical literature or poetry, I just reckon this would be better as a seperate specialised subject.

The majority of our kids need to learn basic grammar, spelling, how to write letters, essays and reports. All far more relevent to the work they may be asked to do upon leaving school.

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You obviously have some experience of the 'classroom environment'. Which schools in Essex have you visited?

In anticipation of a thorough reposte from LH, I'm nevertheless going to agree with you on this one.

Classical literature should remain in subjects where students have shown a preference for this kind of learning, e.g. Eng Lit.

The compulsory stuff, as you said, should be about ensuring basic standards of grammar, punctuation, spelling and interpretation skills.

Most of the analysis of works of classical literature is on a socio-political level that the majority have neither the interest nor the ability (at that age at least) to benefit from.

Even the high ability kids have a very poor grasp of these things. Makes me wonder what on earth goes on in primary schools tbh.

And before anyone says 'well, a good teacher should be able to get through to the kids and inspire them to understand it', I'd just like to point out that people of that skill-level are few and far-between (by definition) and are rarely the academic type who think they would be good at it.

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Originally Posted by ginger_rice

Anyway we seem to be drifting onto a :hijack: situation here :wink:

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Oh yeah, this was supposed to be about the BBC brown-nosing the Tories...

Was I kidnapped by aliens and sent back to a UK where the BBC bias is anything but pro-Labour? :devil: