Big Joe Knew

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Originally Posted by Filled Rolls

This is one woman, last time I looked there was a whole lot of RCs getting excited at the Pope's imminent visit.

Your second paragraph seems to illustrate my point. Despite knowledge of horrendous acts being carried out they seem unable to bring themselves to question and criticise the leaders of the church.

I'm no theologian, but are there not close alternatives to the Church of Rome when it comes to worshipping Jesus? It seems to me that Catholicism seems to operate on a menu system, and people buy into the bits they want. Surely they could find the right mix elsewhere, without propping up a corrupt and twisted regime?

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A lot of Roman Catholic's are excited about Pope Benedict's visit. Doesn't mean they agree with child abuse though or how a very small but significant number of priests were protected to try to maintain the image of the church.

There will be over 100 people joining the RC church in the diocese of St Andrew's and Edinburgh at Easter. They must see something in it? Millions of people around the world believe the RC Church has the right mix.

As for a bitter and twisted regime, what about all the good work giving access to education and food for millions around the world who wouldn't get either otherwise? Here's a Scottish charity for starters http://www.marysmeals.org

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Originally Posted by Bishop Hibee

A lot of Roman Catholic's are excited about Pope Benedict's visit. Doesn't mean they agree with child abuse though or how a very small but significant number of priests were protected to try to maintain the image of the church.

There will be over 100 people joining the RC church in the diocese of St Andrew's and Edinburgh at Easter. They must see something in it? Millions of people around the world believe the RC Church has the right mix.

As for a bitter and twisted regime, what about all the good work giving access to education and food for millions around the world who wouldn't get either otherwise? Here's a Scottish charity for starters http://www.marysmeals.org

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None of these things can be denied. However, the leaders of the Catholic Church have stood back whilst children were abused, and are now digging deeper by refusing to act in a decent manner.

What people see in it is up to them. What people saw in Facism was up to them. I'm not judging them by their standards, I'm judging them by mine, which seem to be fairly common amongst many people - particularly Roman Catholics, and particularly Irish ones.

This topic is getting a lot of press just now, and it's sometimes difficult to differentiate between fact and supposition. However, one thing I read over the weekend was that the current pope, when a cardinal, ruled in 2001 that allegations, of child sex abuse, made against Catholic clergy were subject to the pontifical secret. This seems to be a provision within Canon law, and indicates that almost a decade ago the now-pope took steps that were designed to protect individual clergy and the church through the denial of justice for, or even recognition of, the victims. If that is so the case then the pope's complicity has irreversibly damaged him, regardless of any statements of regret he may now make.

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Originally Posted by 2468

This topic is getting a lot of press just now, and it's sometimes difficult to differentiate between fact and supposition. However, one thing I read over the weekend was that the current pope, when a cardinal, ruled in 2001 that allegations, of child sex abuse, made against Catholic clergy were subject to the pontifical secret. This seems to be a provision within Canon law, and indicates that almost a decade ago the now-pope took steps that were designed to protect individual clergy and the church through the denial of justice for, or even recognition of, the victims. If that is so the case then the pope's complicity has irreversibly damaged him, regardless of any statements of regret he may now make.

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That sounds like the same point that was being made in the radio report I was listening to:agree:

Unfortunately, its hard to find out anything about the dictats of canon law and the extent of its power.

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Originally Posted by Filled Rolls

What's puzzling me is that any thread about child abuse usually attracts a baying mob with fiery crosses, yet this thread is very quiet indeed. Veird.

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Probably because....

a. There's no defending or justifying what has gone / is going on.

b. These things turn into catholic-bashing extravaganzas with some folk claiming ludicrous nonsense to suit their agenda (such as the claim that the catholic church is 'pro paedophilia'), rather than have a serious discussion.

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Originally Posted by Beefster

Probably because....

a. There's no defending or justifying what has gone / is going on.

b. These things turn into catholic-bashing extravaganzas with some folk claiming ludicrous nonsense to suit their agenda (such as the claim that the catholic church is 'pro paedophilia'), rather than have a serious discussion.

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Fair enough, "pro paedophilia" is way OTT, I apologise.

My question today is, what can actually be done within the church to show the world they take it seriously? Credit to Keith O'Brien, who has spoken the sort of language that people want to hear, apologising and saying that "representatives of the church" have brought shame.

On the other hand, the Vatican appears to be adapting a "move along, nothing to see here approach", with one senior official going as far as to compare the criticism they've received to the holocaust.

Will the disgust of those inside and outside the church shame the Vatican enough to actually take the situation more seriously? It seems to me they are in a hole, and can't stop digging. It is a reflection on an organisation that is not used to being questioned, and one that worries me.

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Originally Posted by Filled Rolls

Fair enough, "pro paedophilia" is way OTT, I apologise.

My question today is, what can actually be done within the church to show the world they take it seriously? Credit to Keith O'Brien, who has spoken the sort of language that people want to hear, apologising and saying that "representatives of the church" have brought shame.

On the other hand, the Vatican appears to be adapting a "move along, nothing to see here approach", with one senior official going as far as to compare the criticism they've received to the holocaust.

Will the disgust of those inside and outside the church shame the Vatican enough to actually take the situation more seriously? It seems to me they are in a hole, and can't stop digging. It is a reflection on an organisation that is not used to being questioned, and one that worries me.

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And you should be worried. Especially as an arrogant fool called Cardinal Angelo Sodano, Dean of the College of Cardinals just yesterday dismissed the whole thing as "the petty gossip of the moment". It beggars belief that the Pope's most senior advisor can make such a jaw-droppingly insensitive statement, which is a real kick in the face to the survivors of the foulness he still seeks to minimise.

Credit though, to Cardinal O'Brien for setting his more senior colleague an example in honesty and contrition.

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Originally Posted by khib70

And you should be worried. Especially as an arrogant fool called Cardinal Angelo Sodano, Dean of the College of Cardinals just yesterday dismissed the whole thing as "the petty gossip of the moment". It beggars belief that the Pope's most senior advisor can make such a jaw-droppingly insensitive statement, which is a real kick in the face to the survivors of the foulness he still seeks to minimise.

Credit though, to Cardinal O'Brien for setting his more senior colleague an example in honesty and contrition.

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That is the direction my "pro paedophilia" remark was aimed at. Namely that the organisation seems to refuse to take the issue seriously. Of course they don't go out to promote paedophilia, and to say they do is an insult. However they don't seem to do much to discourage it either.

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Originally Posted by Filled Rolls

Fair enough, "pro paedophilia" is way OTT, I apologise.

My question today is, what can actually be done within the church to show the world they take it seriously? Credit to Keith O'Brien, who has spoken the sort of language that people want to hear, apologising and saying that "representatives of the church" have brought shame.

On the other hand, the Vatican appears to be adapting a "move along, nothing to see here approach", with one senior official going as far as to compare the criticism they've received to the holocaust.

Will the disgust of those inside and outside the church shame the Vatican enough to actually take the situation more seriously? It seems to me they are in a hole, and can't stop digging. It is a reflection on an organisation that is not used to being questioned, and one that worries me.

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They need to be shown to be taking past offences seriously by actively investigating and reporting clergy to the authorities, helping the victims and not trying to dismiss or hide what has happened.

They also need to put in checks so that if/when it happens in future, it's caught quick and dealt with promptly. It'd be naive to think that they could stop it happening ever again.

Controversally, from what I've read, I think the Pope should be deposed / resign too. He seems to have proven himself to be, at best, negligent and at worst, complicit in the 'sweeping under the carpet'.

Lastly, the church needs a new council to bring it into the 21st century.

The church does and will do far more good for children than harm but the sooner that they acknowledge that they're not infallible, the better.

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Originally Posted by Filled Rolls

That is the direction my "pro paedophilia" remark was aimed at. Namely that the organisation seems to refuse to take the issue seriously. Of course they don't go out to promote paedophilia, and to say they do is an insult. However they don't seem to do much to discourage it either.

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That's not true either. I'd say that, sometimes, they're more concerned with the reputation of the church than with dealing conclusively with the problem.

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Originally Posted by Beefster

They need to be shown to be taking past offences seriously by actively investigating and reporting clergy to the authorities, helping the victims and not trying to dismiss or hide what has happened.

They also need to put in checks so that if/when it happens in future, it's caught quick and dealt with promptly. It'd be naive to think that they could stop it happening ever again.

Controversally, from what I've read, I think the Pope should be deposed / resign too. He seems to have proven himself to be, at best, negligent and at worst, complicit in the 'sweeping under the carpet'.

Lastly, the church needs a new council to bring it into the 21st century.

The church does and will do far more good for children than harm but the sooner that they acknowledge that they're not infallible, the better.

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That's not true either. I'd say that, sometimes, they're more concerned with the reputation of the church than with dealing conclusively with the problem.

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That makes sense to me, and is the direction I think they should be taking. I detect that there could be factions within the church about how to deal with it. I was very heartened by Keith O'Brien's comments over the weekend.