He's definitely somewhere in my okayest Hibs XI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts
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He's definitely somewhere in my okayest Hibs XI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts
The decision not to trigger the second year of ALFs contract was the right one for the club, and well within our rights. It’s probably safe to assume that if ALF stayed, Gayle would never have been brought in, and he was a huge positive influence on our season.Quote:
Originally Posted by BILLYHIBS
The deal was that if ALF played a certain number of games a second year was triggered. It obviously became clear to the club at some point that we didn’t want that and instead of shutting him out, we came to a solution where he could still play.
It perhaps could have been handled better but the outcome was correct for us.
My understanding is Alf signed a two year deal and the club moved the goal postsQuote:
Originally Posted by Paul1642
’ I had a two year deal but got misdiagnosed with a PCL injury’
No, it was a year with an extra year that triggered after X games.Quote:
Originally Posted by BILLYHIBS
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/65933869.amp
👍Quote:
Originally Posted by easty
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65933869
That’s irrelevant, to be honest. There are acceptable and unavoidable risks in sport, getting injured by someone who is demonstrably not at a level to safely participate is not an acceptable or unavoidable risk.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoomtownHibees
It wouldn’t stand up at all in a tribunal or court case that other folk do it so that’s the problem?
Tons of folk speed every day without getting caught, it doesn’t stop the ones who do from getting a fine.
I spoke to an employment law specialist about it earlier (I know one, I didn’t go phoning up a solicitor for legal advice!) when I saw the court case, they reckoned there would be a fairly strong case for negligence if that was indeed what the case is over.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrinityHFC
Players have a reasonable expectation that training is conducted by suitably skilled staff with due regard for their safety. If Johnson oversees a session and JDH gets injured by Newell, for example, there’s no claim.
Get Newell as an unqualified coach to run a session, and a player gets injured, they could have a case (as an example).
Put an out of shape coach into the session to play against elite footballers and that coach is, obviously, late into a tackle or misjudges the tackle because he’s clearly not at a level to participate, there’s potential for a claim.
That makes no sense to me. Should SPL players be allowed to sue League 2 players if they're injured playing against them in the cups?Quote:
Originally Posted by matty_f
The manager has the right to include himself in training if he deems it appropriate. If JDH is claiming he deliberately injured him then that's a completely different matter.
We had Bojang training with the first team. He was nowhere near the standard of Hibs first team either.
Awful player and attitude. Couldn’t handle a hibs fan asking him why he needed the balaclava on when he’s meant to be warming up yet looked more interested in chatting
Is not the same thing - that’s acceptable and unavoidable risk. There’s absolutely no need for coaches to be in a position where they’re tackling players. That’s not to say it doesn’t happen and isn’t fine 99% of the time, but those times are, according to the person I spoke to, irrelevant for the time someone gets injured.Quote:
Originally Posted by easty
Surely Johnson being an ex-player comes into though? One that played at a similar level to JDH and much more games.Quote:
Originally Posted by matty_f
Now, he is a manager and been out of professional football as a player for a while but from a negligence point of view the ‘skill’ would still be there and it’s not like they’ve chucked in a random off the street.
As for fitness and sharpness, surely that is a bit more subjective
I don’t think he was an awful player at the time we signed him. I don’t know what is attitude was like other than what I’ve read …Quote:
Originally Posted by sauzee1989
https://www.bbc.com/sport/articles/cnvj3znqnp7o
A lot of footballers wear neck warmers , balaclavas now depending on the weather or possibly other reasons I’m not aware of , seem to be popular as there’s even a section of fans at most clubs in Scotland that seem to feel the need to wear them now , are they asked by other fans why they wear them? Genuine question btw ..
I don’t know who’s at fault in this latest situation or even if there is a case that JDH’s is right until there’s more on it I don’t think we can really point fingers at anyone at this stage IMO .
Johnson has his UEFA pro licence on top of all that. It's not like it's Stevie Naebadges just chucking a training session together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unseen work
He’s an ex player for a number of years, the fitness and capability absolutely comes into it. He’s not training at the level of the players, he’s not living a professional footballer’s lifestyle - he can probably still trap a ball and that but he’d be miles off it in a game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unseen work
The players’ fitness is objectively measured - the club know in great detail what the players’ fitness levels and condition are, they have bespoke training regimes and spend a huge amount of time getting into peak condition.
Lee Johnson did not.
That’s fine if he’s just putting the session on, less so when he’s playing at being a footballer and smashing into players.Quote:
Originally Posted by easty
Has Darren McGregor played in games for the Hibs youth teams ?
They were talking nonsense too then.Quote:
Originally Posted by matty_f
You can get a lawyer to argue any hypothetical point you want, especially if they don’t actually have to take the thing on.
Doesn’t sound likely that he’d go on to make a claim about this does it?
“There was a bit of a coming together in training with the manager but it happens and it could have been any of the lads,” said Doyle-Hayes. “It was a tackle, a 50-50 and nobody holds back in training so it wasn’t an issue. We train with intensity. The gaffer doesn’t join in a lot – I don’t think he has joined in since! He apologised, said it was an accident but I knew that anyway. It was nobody’s fault, he didn’t mean it.”
According to doctors, the manager did not inflict the initial damage. His meaty challenge only exacerbated it. “I didn’t really know I had the injury,” admitted Doyle-Hayes. “When I got the scan they said it could have been an old injury. I had been carrying it for a while, they reckoned. I’m just looking to get my season started now, really, even though there are not many games left.”
He’s not done himself any favours there if that’s what his claim was, that’s for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrinityHFC
Guess this is why folk are speculating on hypotheticals, eh? We don’t know what the case is.
:faf: I’ll tell them today that they’re talking nonsense. I’m sure they’ll give a toss!Quote:
Originally Posted by TrinityHFC
I get that to an extent suppose the context would be was he out of shape, was it a game situation or say a keep ball drill, was it reckless by Johnson or a fair looking tackle which others could vouch for eg other coaches or players present. Was jdh in some way culpable eg he tackled recklessly. Was Johnson part of the session a regular thing which no one had an issue with? On the face of it unless Johnson has shown deliberate intent imo seems a pretty weak case but all about the context.Quote:
Originally Posted by matty_f
His comments don’t exactly strengthen the case though assuming it will be based on some sort of lack of duty of care due to Johnson being involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrinityHFC
I’ve no doubt that he’d be miles off it fitness wise for a game, but for anything to be taken to court? I’d be sceptical, especially with the comments JDH made in the press.Quote:
Originally Posted by matty_f
I think clubs across the world would be aware of the potential lawsuits with managers/coaches taking part in training if that was the case and no one would do it. Where would it end for example? Beuzelin and McGregor take the under 18’s, could they not join in? Neither playing and both about double the age of some of our youngsters
Btw this isn’t a go at you/or the information you received - I just like debating these sort of points 🤣
I think it’s doing to be due to the care he received post injury or the pact Hibs never picked up on the injury prior to the tackle.
I wonder if the case is more around the fact JDH says in the interview above that the challenge exacerbated an existing injury that had been missed rather than being causation of a new injury. When you add that to ALF saying in another interview above that he had a cruciate ligament injury misdiagnosed as a hamstring problem, was declared fit to play then worsened the actual injury by doing so then it doesn't make great reading. I suppose at the time if JDH thought it was a short term issue he wasn't overly concerned but the subsequent time spent out the game and the obvious decline in his football career has seen him seek further advice.
Iirc we had a whole host of players going down with soft tissue injuries around that time. It was discussed regularly as a problem and used by at least one manager as a (potentially legitimate) excuse for poor results and performances. I think we made a few changes in the medical department quietly behind the scenes.
Again that is all just hypothetical and I'm not even sure if such a case would be against Hibs or the individual physio or doctor in such a scenario.
Martin Boyle was also signed from Saudi with his injury ‘missed’ in a medical, if that’s the route this is going down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
We also had guys like Magennis who Jack Ross admitted they couldn’t work out what was wrong with him at one point despite him being months into being injured.
I’d think there’s a much better chance that this is the route the case is going down, rather than because LJ was unsuitable to be playing in a training match. Our medical side of the club was quite clearly not up to standard a few years ago.
Employers generally have vicarious liability for the actions of their employee. It would be a fairly high hurdle in law for the club to surpass to displace that - effectively proving that (again, assuming this case is about a tackle from LJ) that LJ was off on a “frolic of his own” beyond the scope of his employment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatdayinmay16
He did what everyone else could do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts
What's that got to do with anything?Quote:
Originally Posted by Donegal Hibby
Not since he retired properly I believe. He was a regular for the Dev/Reserve squads when it was a thing in his final year but he was still a registered player that could have played for the first team if needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donegal Hibby
JDH was employed by Hibs at this time - do you think he's going to say anything different? If a manager turns up still pissed from a previous night out would you expect players to mention it during an interview? Just because it's reported doesnt make it true. There are plenty current and past well regarded Hibs players who have nothing but praise for JDH and his time at Hibs. Not many would say the same for Lee Johnson.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrinityHFC
I love that we’re to disregard Doyle-Hayes version of events (one that’s been corroborated numerous times by others) as to what happened to Doyle-Hayes and instead believe a completely different set of events from someone who wasn’t even there.
I thought he might have , point I was making is there are times when a team has a bigger , more physical player coming back from injury that sometimes plays in a reserve/ youth game with the young lads to get them up to speed . A lot of managers have over the years joined in on training sessions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Centre Hawf
We could just slag the boy off and make up stories about his attitude instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts
I’m not sure if I’m included in this, just for the avoidance of doubt my whole point was based on a hypothetical that he could argue a case IF that was the route he was going down but there could be loads of reasons he’s gone to court where this isn’t even relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts
Na, you weren’t included Matty.Quote:
Originally Posted by matty_f
Pretty ironic given you’ve described the other party in the incident as a dick and made up a story about him being drunk when he made the tackle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightside
I didn’t say anything about LJ being drunk. Stop making things up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts
You quite clearly alluded to it in your post or else your comment about a manager turning up pissed is just absolute random nonsense that doesn’t make any sense in the context of the discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightside
“A manager”. I’ll take that as an apology. 👍Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts
You can take it as whatever you want. :aok:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightside
Eh?? I took that reference to just be a hypothetical example of another event (like a manager crunching a player in a training exercise) that wouldn't be fully and frankly discussed by a football player in the employment of a football club to the media at any club, anywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts
A manager turning up pished and a manager joining in training are completely incomparable situations so it would be a bizarre ‘hypothetical’ to use. One would be a sackable offence, the other is common practice and generally accepted by clubs the world over, even at elite level. Clips have surfaced before of Zidane and Xabi Alonso joining in training for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by lyonhibs
It was quite clearly something that Brightside was alluding to, especially bearing in mind the fictitious mud they’ve thrown at LJ previously.
The hypothetical tbf was about whether players would tow the party line or go off on their own rant about what they really think of something. The answer is players will tow the line if they're put up for press, otherwise they'll not be out there again. JDH wasn't exactly going to go and say "I'm planning on suing the club and LJ when I leave.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts
Evening news adding a few more details.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightside
Love the way these type of threads develop 😁
And that would be fair if we were talking about drunk managers. We weren’t. We were talking about a manager joining in training, something completely innocuous and JDH discussed what happened during the incident. He didn’t really give an opinion on it, it was a factual discussion as to what happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Centre Hawf
A player discussing a training injury being compared to a manager being drunk on the job is nonsense and is absolutely not a relevant hypothetical to the JDH/LJ situation. Quite simply, it’s not a hypothetical anyone would use when looking for a comparable, hypothetical situation.
Exactly. At this rate I may need to get Jake’s lawyers. 😂Quote:
Originally Posted by lyonhibs
I’ve thrown nothing fictitious at LJ. Unless I said he was a nice guy once.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts
I love the idea that it was the tackle, and not the fact he was absolutely ***** that has robbed him of a decent career.Quote:
Originally Posted by matty_f
Can’t see any way he wins the case when he has publicly claimed it was “nobodies fault” previously and also indicated that it was a tackle that could have been made by “any of the lads” which quite clearly suggests it was an innocent and reasonable challenge and not something that screamed ‘retired unfit manager who can’t keep up’.
Clearly a cash grab by a desperately poor player who has realised he’s found his level and realised there’s not a lot of money to be had at it.
I raised that with my colleague, he says it wasn’t likely to prejudice the case too much, as it could be reasonably argued that it wasn’t appropriate for JDH to call it out whilst still in employment with the possibility of a future at the club. They said it definitely didn’t help his case though, but isn’t a silver bullet against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts
Interesting, you always hear about managed joining in training, injuries are part of the game, surely nothing will come from itQuote:
Originally Posted by matty_f
It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I think it will be on his lawyers to prove that Johnson's participation in and/or conduct in the training game was reckless.
I suppose it comes down to whether Johnson's behaviour was deemed appropriate for the situation. If he was just making up numbers and an innocuous 50/50 left a player hurt then that's one thing. If he was showing off and went flying into a tackle 'for a laugh's then that starts to move towards the McGinn/Thompson situation whereby a situation wasn't necessarily malicious but became reckless and dangerous.
It will be particularly interesting to see if any ex or current players have to testify. My gut feeling is nobody wants a court case here and it will be settled out of court. Hibs won't want the potential embarrassment and awkwardness and JDH probably knows his case is 50/50 at best.
Nice to have another reason to slate that fat slaver to be fair.
I heard LJ had 9 inch nails as studs
This claim will be completely speculative to try and make something out of a career that has otherwise frittered away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
Don’t expect anything to come out of it. First, it isn’t unusual for coaching staff to be involved in training and secondly the player has already said there was nothing in it, it was an accident and that scans showed the injury was likely to have been there already.
Sorry to ruin the fun but Hibs will have insurance, and it will probably be settled long before it gets to the stage of Lee Johnson being called to give evidence as to his tackling ability.
I think it would depend on the drill etc that’s happening, and also a fair amount of it will land on players’ knowledge of what their employee rights are.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1875Sean
Players will accept a fair amount as part and parcel of being a footballer, their relationships with clubs and coaches will inform a lot of decision making in whether something is actionable or not as well, plus the severity of the situation that results will steer their thinking.
You could put some coaches into training and be absolutely fine, they are maybe recently retired and maintain their fitness by training with the team on conditioning etc, but clubs have a duty of care to the players and that extends to who is involved in training, who assesses their fitness, agrees their physical training plan etc.
Even if you take something like a player coming in and slipping on a freshly cleaned floor, if they’re injured and challenged that the floor wasn’t cleaned properly, Hibs would need to show that whoever cleaned the floor had received appropriate training or had appropriate skills to do it as part of their duty of care.
It is easy to dismiss these things as common practice or just one of those things that can happen, but when something goes wrong and you wind back to how it happened and who’s responsible for it, it can very quickly highlight a lack of care from the employer who hasn’t considered the duty of care implications for the practices - such as letting a head coach who is clearly no longer at the standard of a professional footballer get involved in a situation where he’s challenging and injuring a player. Even on things that are seen as an occupational hazard.
"The Irish midfielder is seeking compensation from the club over the injury that derailed his attempts to make a lasting impact on the first team."
This line is hilarious considering he was absolute guff before the injury and after it.
Just an attempt at a cash grab when he himself admitted that LJ didn't maliciously attempt to hurt him.
Couldn't be arsed turning up for hibs on a Saturday but been playing every week since joining sligo funnily enough.
You are way overthinking this.Quote:
Originally Posted by matty_f
It is a nonsense claim.
:agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatdayinmay16
Don’t necessarily agree on your last point (maybe because I largely couldn’t care less what he was up to whilst we weren’t being subjected to him on the pitch), but he was an absolutely terrible player. Made Brian Kerr look like a maverick.
He should be focussing on a negligent angle for the club not diagnosing the original injury that was exacerbated by the tackle
I cannae see him winning a case against a tackle injuring him.
Maybe he’s just hoping for an out of court settlement
I’m not making any judgement on whether he’ll by successful with it, and it’s not overthinking to know what you’re talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrinityHFC
His solicitors clearly think he’s got a better than 50/50 chance of winning otherwise they wouldn’t be taking the case.
He said this in the record 2 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatdayinmay16
“It was a tackle, a 50-50 and nobody holds back in training so it wasn’t an issue. That’s how it happened, we don’t hold back because we train with intensity.
“The gaffer doesn’t join in a lot - I don’t think he has joined in since! He apologised, said it was an accident but I knew that anyway. It was nobody’s fault, he didn’t mean it and that’s the way we train.“
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/jake-doyle-hayes-absolves-lee-29600004.amp
That was the quote I was alluding to, funny how he's now backtracked from that original statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHFC
The guy won the lottery being at hibs, it's the furthest he'd have reached. No "Career was derailed" considering he was still being paid and has now ended up playing for Sligo week in week out.
No win, no fee?Quote:
Originally Posted by matty_f
Wouldn’t think so here!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson
Should have went with Digby Brown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson
It would be very surprising if he has taking it to court without anything more than he said / no he said. There is some interesting wording in the complaint for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
You fancy spending 20k+ for a day in court just on the off chance?Quote:
Originally Posted by TrinityHFC
Proceedings in relation to a personal injury matter need to be raised within three years of the event giving rise to the claim - the “triennium”. It’s fairly common for protective proceedings to be raised to avoid eroding any negotiating position / losing the right to litigate if negotiations don’t reach a successful outcome.
Whilst JDH would likely have until September to raise these proceedings, it may suit him / his advisors to raise proceedings now to demonstrate they are apparently serious in proceeding with the action. The action can be paused / withdrawn at any stage.
Unless it's a no win no fee scenario then why wouldn't they take the case, they'd be getting paid even if they lost. My experience of soliciters/lawyers is that they only refuse cases if the case could burden them with reputational damage - like everyone else they need to make money.Quote:
Originally Posted by matty_f
No wonder JDH couldn't nail down a first team place if he couldn't even dodge a tackle from a half pissed out of shape 40 year old.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightside
:duck:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatdayinmay16
Would be interesting to see how he/his lawyers demonstrate that his career has been derailed, when he continued to (rightly) be paid by Hibs during this period time, and agreed to mutual parting of the ways, which would imply he’d been given a payoff to leave early. There really isn’t a way to prove he’d have been offered another contract at Hibs, or anyone else of a similar or higher level.
Johnson gave us more memories in 90 minutes than JDH gave us in 3 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightside
As for the bit in bold, who?
Yup, couldn't agree more.Quote:
Originally Posted by McD
He agreed to a pay off when he could have stayed and fought for his place in the first team and then seen out his contract and then moved to another club or potentially been offered a new deal.
We've not "derailed" anything, classic example of a guy throwing his toys out of the pram.
Again you are assuming he has agreed to a pay off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatdayinmay16
In January, the Hibs Observer reported that "His deal was due to expire in the summer but an agreement has been reached to allow the Irishman to leave this month and 'explore the next steps of his career'".Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightside
He would have to agree to it for it to happen surely?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightside
Because they have duty of care to their client as well, and to limit the cost. Proceeding with a case that’s more likely to lose than win will give them a payday now but the bad advice will prevent repeat custom.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoboHarry
He did agree to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoomtownHibees
I think the only realistic way that they could demonstrate that would be to show concrete evidence of interest at a higher level than he’s at now that didn’t materialise because of the injury. Other than that - how do you prove it? Loads of players have left Hibs to go to a much lower level with no injury history.Quote:
Originally Posted by McD
I know. Just not sure how Brightside thought it would have happened otherwiseQuote:
Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts
Whether JDH is “within his rights” or not, it’s stinks in my opinion. He was a limited footballer that got an accidental injury in training. Hibs paid for his medical treatment and paid his salary throughout. To then try to take us to court for compensation is an unwarranted cash grab. I previously thought of him as a guy who tried hard and scored a couple of great goals for us. I now think he’s a back stabbing, ungrateful little gold digger.
JDH GTF
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by worcesterhibby
His legal team are suggesting his career is all but over, wonder what Sligo think to that?
Wish him all the worst luck in the world for pulling this stunt.
Only 1 person has said pissed - the lawyer said incoherent which doesn’t mean drunk. He wasn’t drunk when he was talking about lions etc, just incoherent.Quote:
Originally Posted by NAE NOOKIE
Nothing in the report said he got paid off. Just agreement that he would leave. Unless I missed that.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoomtownHibees
Maybe that’s the money he’s chasing then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightside
Like a lion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danderhall Hibs
My thoughts are with the managers who had JDH lingering around the club after Johnson left.
It must have been very awkward and difficult at times for Montgomery and Gray now, with this elephant in the room. The stance JDH has taken it's likely he voiced his displeasure with other players, which would not have helped with team morale.
I'll add a bit more conjecture to the debate. It does seem we have had some 'characters' at the club in recent years. JDH, Kenneh, Bojang to name just a few. Although not proven, there are others I could mention, mostly from rumours on here and other Hibs supporters I know. I understand this is rumour but there cannot be this much smoke without fire. MacKay has said as well that some players were given opportunities to leave and get more playing time but chose to stay. It is their prerogative, but it will not have helped Gray.
Gray has said in the last couple of days he has rarely known such a good chemistry in the squad. Thankfully, results in the last six months of the season has shown Gray to be correct.
Oh come on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightside
He had 6 months left on his contract. Of course he was paid off.
Or he left so he could play again? At the moment the pay off appears to be an assumption. According to some he was stealing a wage so it’s odd that he didn’t just continue doing that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibbyradge
It's not odd. He was paid off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightside
Are you suggesting they sacked him?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightside
If he left without a pay off, which I doubt happened, then he would have had to agree to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightside
I’m not really sure where you are going with all of this
No. I’m just suggesting that there is an awful lot of assumptions in this thread. Including a new one that he was a bad apple along with Kenneh and Bojang. Maybe the bad apples were the management staff. Who knows eh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danderhall Hibs
Yeah there’s lots of stuff flying around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightside
Oh come on your not that nieve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightside
Agreeing to it doesn't necessarily mean he was paid off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trinity Hibee
He could have said to Hibs that Sligo were interested but couldn't afford a fee so Hibs agreed to release him from his contract so he could sign for them, get a bit security going forward and play again. An old fashioned free transfer if you like.
Similar happened when we signed Darren McGregor. Rangers wanted him to go to Dundee or St Johnstone, he said no, they asked where he wanted to go, he said Hibs, they said we can't sell you to Hibs right now so he agreed to be released from his contract and signed for Hibs as a free agent a couple of days later. I doubt Rangers paid up his contract in such a scenario.
Of course as you say JDH would have had to agree to all that but that doesn't seem to be his case. It's that without the injury his earning potential was higher than Sligo Rovers.
On your last paragraph, let’s be honest, it wasn’t. He is, and always has been, pish. It wasn’t the injury that done that to him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy