Climate change and the impending apocalypse

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

It’s bonkers, an underwater mini rainforest sustaining life as well solving some of the biodiversity and climate damage concerns simultaneously. I can’t get my head around the actual horticultural introduction progress (I’m assuming they grow the seedlings into fair sized juvenile plants before planting into some sort of contained structure in the sea bed to stop them washing away in the tides?) the presentation I attended told us the seeds were being harvested from a population in Orkney.

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Yep, seeds harvested and stored in Orkney before distribution - although turns out the existing plants on the firth of forth actually have DNA closer to seagrass found on the Dutch shoreline than the plants in Orkney, and the Dutch can harvest "millions" of seeds compared to the thousands in Orkney.

Regarding the planting its so low tech I thought it was a joke. Basically take a caulking gun and a cleaned out tube of silicon or decorators caulk and cut the top off. Insert the seed with some sandy muddy sediment and press it into the sand. Current success rates are 35-40% of seeds turning into flowers which is meant to be a very very good result. Beauty of it being so simple is the planting can be delegated to community groups. I think there are 3 current experimental sites where they are looking to expand on the existing seagrass meadows. One at Limekilns, one around Burntisland and Kinghorn and another across the water along the Dalmeny Estate shoreline.

Think the bigger issue is protecting existing and new meadows from human activity. 99.99999% of the population won't have a clue about seagrass and when the tide is out will just assume its some seaweed. Bait diggers, dog walkers, families etc won't think anything of walking along it and/or digging it up.

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

I think I posted this link before but may be of interest to some if they haven't seen it. Seems to be borne from the same thought process as the seagrass project(s) mentioned above:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63200589

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Interesting, hadn't seen that before.

Although hopefully these schemes and advances are used to restore some of the damage we have done - as opposed to just allow governments and corporations to carry on with business as usual.

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Originally Posted by green&left

Yep, seeds harvested and stored in Orkney before distribution - although turns out the existing plants on the firth of forth actually have DNA closer to seagrass found on the Dutch shoreline than the plants in Orkney, and the Dutch can harvest "millions" of seeds compared to the thousands in Orkney.

Regarding the planting its so low tech I thought it was a joke. Basically take a caulking gun and a cleaned out tube of silicon or decorators caulk and cut the top off. Insert the seed with some sandy muddy sediment and press it into the sand. Current success rates are 35-40% of seeds turning into flowers which is meant to be a very very good result. Beauty of it being so simple is the planting can be delegated to community groups. I think there are 3 current experimental sites where they are looking to expand on the existing seagrass meadows. One at Limekilns, one around Burntisland and Kinghorn and another across the water along the Dalmeny Estate shoreline.

Think the bigger issue is protecting existing and new meadows from human activity. 99.99999% of the population won't have a clue about seagrass and when the tide is out will just assume its some seaweed. Bait diggers, dog walkers, families etc won't think anything of walking along it and/or digging it up.

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On the face of it this looks really exciting. Is there a danger it's being oversold?

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Originally Posted by green&left

Yep, seeds harvested and stored in Orkney before distribution - although turns out the existing plants on the firth of forth actually have DNA closer to seagrass found on the Dutch shoreline than the plants in Orkney, and the Dutch can harvest "millions" of seeds compared to the thousands in Orkney.

Regarding the planting its so low tech I thought it was a joke. Basically take a caulking gun and a cleaned out tube of silicon or decorators caulk and cut the top off. Insert the seed with some sandy muddy sediment and press it into the sand. Current success rates are 35-40% of seeds turning into flowers which is meant to be a very very good result. Beauty of it being so simple is the planting can be delegated to community groups. I think there are 3 current experimental sites where they are looking to expand on the existing seagrass meadows. One at Limekilns, one around Burntisland and Kinghorn and another across the water along the Dalmeny Estate shoreline.

Think the bigger issue is protecting existing and new meadows from human activity. 99.99999% of the population won't have a clue about seagrass and when the tide is out will just assume its some seaweed. Bait diggers, dog walkers, families etc won't think anything of walking along it and/or digging it up.

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Thanks, I wasn’t sure about that element so you’ve saved me asking the question that I’m supposed to know the answer to in my day to day existence anyway :greengrin

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Originally Posted by archie

On the face of it this looks really exciting. Is there a danger it's being oversold?

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I don't think so, no.

There's been several case studies from different countries looking at the different impacts it has. Australia has looked at the benefit of fish stocks for them, India and British Virgin Islands have separately looked at the benefits of carbon sequestration, UK has looked at the benefit of it protecting banks from erosion and taking force out of wave energy and the EU has looked at pretty much everything.

The thing to be mindful off is seagrass and oysters aren't some crazy invention or exotic imports. They were native to these parts before human activity destroyed their habitats and these projects are just trying to return these areas to how they were pre-industrialisation.

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Originally Posted by green&left

I don't think so, no.

There's been several case studies from different countries looking at the different impacts it has. Australia has looked at the benefit of fish stocks for them, India and British Virgin Islands have separately looked at the benefits of carbon sequestration, UK has looked at the benefit of it protecting banks from erosion and taking force out of wave energy and the EU has looked at pretty much everything.

The thing to be mindful off is seagrass and oysters aren't some crazy invention or exotic imports. They were native to these parts before human activity destroyed their habitats and these projects are just trying to return these areas to how they were pre-industrialisation.

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Thanks - that's really interesting.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64815875

A cheery thought for a Thursday morning.

He's probably not wrong though.

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

For anyone who enjoyed Paul Whitehouse in Gone Fishing, there’s a couple of programmes starting on Sunday on bbc2 where he investigates how bad the pollution in Englands rivers is, and by all accounts it’s a shocking watch.

https://www.bbc.com/mediacentre/prog...roubled-rivers

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Great spot HB and thanks for pointing it out, I will definitely be watching this. As an avid angler of all sorts - coarse, sea and game - I'm always interested in things fishing and water quality content. Feargal Sharkey has been ringing the alarm bells on what water companies are doing to English rivers and water sources for quite some time now and hopefully it is beginning to get traction. Sadly I'm not sure the picture is much different here in Scotland.

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64815875

A cheery thought for a Thursday morning.

He's probably not wrong though.

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It’s clumsy wording though. What is he (or rather the reporter) saying is ‘lost’? The battle for survival? And the survival of what, the planet itself or the human race as a species? The word used in the piece ‘mitigation’ is appropriate here; perhaps we have lost the battle to avoid permanent long lasting environmental damage, but that there are still plenty of opportunities to mitigate the impacts and learn different ways to coexist with the planet within those new realities?

I’d rather listen to scientists on the reality than to a politician who isn’t even a major figure the Green movement anymore. The ‘throw up your hands and accept it’ crowd really yank my chain. Maybe they have no intention of producing grandchildren who might inherit what is left, or something.

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

It’s clumsy wording though. What is he (or rather the reporter) saying is ‘lost’? The battle for survival? And the survival of what, the planet itself or the human race as a species? The word used in the piece ‘mitigation’ is appropriate here; perhaps we have lost the battle to avoid permanent long lasting environmental damage, but that there are still plenty of opportunities to mitigate the impacts and learn different ways to coexist with the planet within those new realities?

I’d rather listen to scientists on the reality than to a politician who isn’t even a major figure the Green movement anymore. The ‘throw up your hands and accept it’ crowd really yank my chain. Maybe they have no intention of producing grandchildren who might inherit what is left, or something.

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I think climate catastrophising is really harmful to changing behaviours. If you say we're done then what point is there in doing anything. I was very struck by the discussion above on solutions. Much easier to engage with.

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Originally Posted by One Day Soon

Great spot HB and thanks for pointing it out, I will definitely be watching this. As an avid angler of all sorts - coarse, sea and game - I'm always interested in things fishing and water quality content. Feargal Sharkey has been ringing the alarm bells on what water companies are doing to English rivers and water sources for quite some time now and hopefully it is beginning to get traction. Sadly I'm not sure the picture is much different here in Scotland.

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I always thought Scotland performed pretty well compared to the rest of the UK, then I read that we under monitor/report compared to elsewhere by a significant margin.

We might be OK, we might be much worse!

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Originally Posted by Just Alf

I always thought Scotland performed pretty well compared to the rest of the UK, then I read that we under monitor/report compared to elsewhere by a significant margin.

We might be OK, we might be much worse!

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We barely report or monitor sadly, but it is improving

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

We barely report or monitor sadly, but it is improving

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I see that human waste is resulting in wild growing tomato plants in riverside locations in Scotland because our water company is either actively discharge waste into water ways or because we are not managing the system well enough to prevent it happening accidentally. There's a health risk and sewage scandal waiting to happen there.

Wallace a bit of a random target and I'm not sure it will win the public as much as spray painting Tufton Street but oh well

https://news.stv.tv/east-central/cli...x=1677764427-1

Climate activists shatter glass case holding William Wallace's sword
The pair used rocks to bash in the enclosure at the Wallace Monument before spray painting it.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Wallace a bit of a random target and I'm not sure it will win the public as much as spray painting Tufton Street but oh well

https://news.stv.tv/east-central/cli...x=1677764427-1

Climate activists shatter glass case holding William Wallace's sword
The pair used rocks to bash in the enclosure at the Wallace Monument before spray painting it.

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I just like the bit where ‘Douglas Ross could be heard swearing’. I had a wee chuckle at that.

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Originally Posted by archie

I think climate catastrophising is really harmful to changing behaviours. If you say we're done then what point is there in doing anything. I was very struck by the discussion above on solutions. Much easier to engage with.

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I think you’re not alone, and I assume there is a heavily weighted ‘men of a certain age’ profile on this thread, and that demographic tends to be into their DIY type solutions, so the thing about loading up a caulking gun with sea grass seeds and pumping away at the Forth seabed to our hearts content to save the world has a certain appeal…

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Originally Posted by archie

I think climate catastrophising is really harmful to changing behaviours. If you say we're done then what point is there in doing anything. I was very struck by the discussion above on solutions. Much easier to engage with.

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I think the language he used wasn't ideal but the science shows we have lost the battle to keep warming to 1.5c, which was agreed as the target. Your right though that temperatures above this won't cause an apocalypse, but they will have devastating consequences.

And collectively we are still doing very little. I think for a lot of people who have been warning about this stuff for decades, and have been laughed at, ridiculed for all that time, they are now finally getting some traction with their argument and are probably just fed up of sugar costing things.

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

I think you’re not alone, and I assume there is a heavily weighted ‘men of a certain age’ profile on this thread, and that demographic tends to be into their DIY type solutions, so the thing about loading up a caulking gun with sea grass seeds and pumping away at the Forth seabed to our hearts content to save the world has a certain appeal…

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We disagree substantially on some things but you are an intelligent guy. There's no way you wrote this accidentally.

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Originally Posted by One Day Soon

We disagree substantially on some things but you are an intelligent guy. There's no way you wrote this accidentally.

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:faf: guilty as charged m’lud.

I'm probably a man of a certain age. Too old to worry about pumping these days. The sea grass and other innovations are fantastic but my fear is they will be used to show we can continue to destroy and invent our way out of it. My view is the world needs to slow down dramatically and innovate to reduce climate change. That will never happen when all politicians seem to want is growth and when very little is discussed beyond a single political cycle. Money and lobbying drives political decision making and that influence has now started to dictate what the electorate vote for too. Climate change will continue to be kicked into the long sea grass and the direction of travel will continue until the point that green technology can generate more wealth for those that pull the levers. At that point it will probably be too late. Unfortunately, all the traits and qualities that most people would consider make good humans don't get you into positions that take decisions. All the traits that we hate are abundant in those that decide our fate and none of them look beyond what effect climate change will have on them and what profit is to be made in the meantime.

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Originally Posted by wookie70

I'm probably a man of a certain age. Too old to worry about pumping these days. The sea grass and other innovations are fantastic but my fear is they will be used to show we can continue to destroy and invent our way out of it. My view is the world needs to slow down dramatically and innovate to reduce climate change. That will never happen when all politicians seem to want is growth and when very little is discussed beyond a single political cycle. Money and lobbying drives political decision making and that influence has now started to dictate what the electorate vote for too. Climate change will continue to be kicked into the long sea grass and the direction of travel will continue until the point that green technology can generate more wealth for those that pull the levers. At that point it will probably be too late. Unfortunately, all the traits and qualities that most people would consider make good humans don't get you into positions that take decisions. All the traits that we hate are abundant in those that decide our fate and none of them look beyond what effect climate change will have on them and what profit is to be made in the meantime.

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I think there is a huge issue trying to take people on this journey. With the catastrophising narrative the danger is that it will be seen as no point (with references to China, India and the US) doing much more damage than us. But the no growth solution is likely to be very unpopular. In Europe I think that is likely to lead to right wing populist governments. It won't be done in China because the whole edifice is built on growth and economic reward. The CCP has delivered growth and extreme reward for some Chinise. If that collapses what then? I'm my view lots of little initiatives are more likely to get traction.

It's not governments or big businesses that will drive the change needed, it's the public, and it's already happening.

Practically every business, from the smallest cafes to big pharma or oil and gas, mention their green credentials nowadays, and the move away from fossil fuels and plastics for example are accelerating all the time.

The investment and innovation is happening on huge scales, but it will of course take time to see meaningful results.

Tesla is one example of a company trying to do so. Having the vision for every car on the planet to be electric is amazing and we need more of that kind of thinking to get to where we want.

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Originally Posted by archie

I think there is a huge issue trying to take people on this journey. With the catastrophising narrative the danger is that it will be seen as no point (with references to China, India and the US) doing much more damage than us. But the no growth solution is likely to be very unpopular. In Europe I think that is likely to lead to right wing populist governments. It won't be done in China because the whole edifice is built on growth and economic reward. The CCP has delivered growth and extreme reward for some Chinise. If that collapses what then? I'm my view lots of little initiatives are more likely to get traction.

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Do you mean lots of little initiatives like the deposit recycling scheme that get destroyed by political whataboutery and businesses dragging their feet against change?

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

Do you mean lots of little initiatives like the deposit recycling scheme that get destroyed by political whataboutery and businesses dragging their feet against change?

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https://twitter.com/edconwaysky/stat...dxJXScFNwz8V4A

There are powerful forces willing to help opposition to this scheme.


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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

Do you mean lots of little initiatives like the deposit recycling scheme that get destroyed by political whataboutery and businesses dragging their feet against change?

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But this highlights why it is so important to get it right from the start.

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Originally Posted by archie

But this highlights why it is so important to get it right from the start.

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I would argue we just need to start and improve as we go. Procrastinating until we have something perfect is not going to do the job. IMO.


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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

Do you mean lots of little initiatives like the deposit recycling scheme that get destroyed by political whataboutery and businesses dragging their feet against change?

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Just to add, if you don't take people with you then all of it is doomed to fail. The deposit scheme is trivial in the face of what some argue needs to be done. Some are calling for restrictions on flights and travel, ending meat consumption, reversing consumption and growth. All of that will have direct impacts. These will generate huge controversy. If it isn't done right then what might we see. Anti-restriction populist movements? Authoritarian implementation of policies? None of these are good outcomes.

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Originally Posted by archie

But this highlights why it is so important to get it right from the start.

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No, it highlights the difficulty of trying to implement change when the money men and political agenda can profit from keeping the status quo.

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

No, it highlights the difficulty of trying to implement change when the money men and political agenda can profit from keeping the status quo.

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So you don't think it's important to get it right?

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Originally Posted by archie

Just to add, if you don't take people with you then all of it is doomed to fail. The deposit scheme is trivial in the face of what some argue needs to be done. Some are calling for restrictions on flights and travel, ending meat consumption, reversing consumption and growth. All of that will have direct impacts. These will generate huge controversy. If it isn't done right then what might we see. Anti-restriction populist movements? Authoritarian implementation of policies? None of these are good outcomes.

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We’ve near enough perfected making controversy out of nothing in this country, so that part is inevitable regardless of how things are done.

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Originally Posted by archie

So you don't think it's important to get it right?

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No, I think it's important to get things like this up and running so we can make it right.

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Originally Posted by archie

Just to add, if you don't take people with you then all of it is doomed to fail. The deposit scheme is trivial in the face of what some argue needs to be done. Some are calling for restrictions on flights and travel, ending meat consumption, reversing consumption and growth. All of that will have direct impacts. These will generate huge controversy. If it isn't done right then what might we see. Anti-restriction populist movements? Authoritarian implementation of policies? None of these are good outcomes.

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The only way to stop the crisis is an approach that is simply never going to happen. It would involve a huge % of earths population giving up large parts of the lifestyle we have become accustomed to including the things mentioned above as well as the way we buy our food (buying local and in season foods rather than plastic wrapped fruit and veg from the other side of the world) and clothes (a few good times that we make last decades rather than cheap quality that we replace in no time due to wear and tear or changes in fashion), dealing with our homes being much colder in winter, and completely removing our reliance as a society on cars.

Almost none of us in the west (myself included) are willing to do that, mainly because we correctly feel that enough others won’t don’t the same, so we would be decreasing our own quality of life for absolutely zero benefit in the grand scheme of things.

That’s before you factor in the majority of the world who have a quality of life much lower than our own for whom living an eco friendly lifestyle is in direct contract with their attempts to survive / improve their varying levels of poverty.

It’s a battle we are never truly going to take seriously until the consequences of not taking action affect our life’s there and then more than the cost of the actions taken.

It’s a sad reality but things are only going to keep getting worse for the rest of our lives.

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Originally Posted by Paul1642

The only way to stop the crisis is an approach that is simply never going to happen. It would involve a huge % of earths population giving up large parts of the lifestyle we have become accustomed to including the things mentioned above as well as the way we buy our food (buying local and in season foods rather than plastic wrapped fruit and veg from the other side of the world) and clothes (a few good times that we make last decades rather than cheap quality that we replace in no time due to wear and tear or changes in fashion), dealing with our homes being much colder in winter, and completely removing our reliance as a society on cars.

Almost none of us in the west (myself included) are willing to do that, mainly because we correctly feel that enough others won’t don’t the same, so we would be decreasing our own quality of life for absolutely zero benefit in the grand scheme of things.

That’s before you factor in the majority of the world who have a quality of life much lower than our own for whom living an eco friendly lifestyle is in direct contract with their attempts to survive / improve their varying levels of poverty.

It’s a battle we are never truly going to take seriously until the consequences of not taking action affect our life’s there and then more than the cost of the actions taken.

It’s a sad reality but things are only going to keep getting worse for the rest of our lives.

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Due to entitlement and/or manipulation. People have been conned into their current lifestyle. Basing their self-worth to society on their registration plate so they're happy to lease a car for the rest of their life swapping every 3 years, happy to take an i-phone on constant credit for the rest of their life switching every 18-24 months, needing to "freshen up" their wardrobe every spring/summer and autumn/winter 'cos everyone from Prada to Primark says so. And don't get me started on the people who have been ripping up soil and grasses in their gardens and replacing it with some plastic astroturf - and been conned into thinking it actually looks good.

Regarding the other part in bold I'm not sure how any of that decreases the quality of someones life?

PS regarding the exotically grown veg, that is still less damaging to the planet than home-reared beef. The air-miles in food production is a tiny fraction of its impact on climate change. Regenesis by George Monbiot covers food production very well. Its a very interesting read for anyone interested in this type of thing.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...tion-rebellion

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Originally Posted by archie

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...tion-rebellion

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I think the final sentence was the most salient point in that article.

“The debate is not between those who want to take ‘moderate’ or ‘radical’ action,” she told me. “It’s between those who are standing by doing nothing at all, and those who are doing something. That’s where the line is drawn.”

The rest of it ignores the elephant, which is that the Government has now made peaceful protest illegal and the courts are being encouraged to hand out chunky long sentences and are doing so. That’s why tactics have to change.

Onshore wind is more than twice as cheap as gas, but building new turbines on land in England is effectively banned.

Sign the petition today👇
britainremade.co.uk/windpetition

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Onshore wind is more than twice as cheap as gas, but building new turbines on land in England is effectively banned.

Sign the petition today[emoji116]
britainremade.co.uk/windpetition

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What is really annoying is that no matter how many turbines we put up in Scotland, electricity is prices at the gas price.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

What is really annoying is that no matter how many turbines we put up in Scotland, electricity is prices at the gas price.


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The prices are linked because gas turbines are used to generate electricity. What would you propose?

Here's the current generation mix. https://grid.iamkate.com/

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Originally Posted by archie

The prices are linked because gas turbines are used to generate electricity. What would you propose?

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I would suggest that the electricity supplied by turbine is charged to the consumer accordingly.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I would suggest that the electricity supplied by turbine is charged to the consumer accordingly.


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How?

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Originally Posted by archie

Here's the current generation mix. https://grid.iamkate.com/

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If people hadn't campaigned against nuclear power for 30 years, 60% of our energy today might not be from burning gas and coal

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Originally Posted by archie

How?

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I think it’s arguable that if you signed up to be with a green energy supplier (Bulb were for example) then you should have been protected from the rise in gas prices.

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Originally Posted by Jones28

I think it’s arguable that if you signed up to be with a green energy supplier (Bulb were for example) then you should have been protected from the rise in gas prices.

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Bulb maybe not a good example ha. We are all paying in our standing charge to bail out their customers due to them going bust, £6.5 billion

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Originally Posted by Jones28

I think it’s arguable that if you signed up to be with a green energy supplier (Bulb were for example) then you should have been protected from the rise in gas prices.

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Firstly, when you sign up to a green energy supplier you don't necessarily get green energy to your house. But you do buy inputs that go into the grid. It's a good thing to do. But if renewables aren't producing by your logic your supply should be turned off. That makes no sense. And in any event, once it's in the grid it can't be disaggregated. If that was the case no one would ever sign on to a green energy provider.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Bulb maybe not a good example ha. We are all paying in our standing charge to bail out their customers due to them going bust, £6.5 billion

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That may be an argument that it's too easy for supply companies to enter the market.

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Originally Posted by archie

Firstly, when you sign up to a green energy supplier you don't necessarily get green energy to your house. But you do buy inputs that go into the grid. It's a good thing to do. But if renewables aren't producing by your logic your supply should be turned off. That makes no sense. And in any event, once it's in the grid it can't be disaggregated. If that was the case no one would ever sign on to a green energy provider.

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It's not an argument I can even be bothered trying to start, because there's no magical solution. But I do think there should be a mechanism by which you get, say, a level of protection. It maybe shouldn't preclude you from all energy price increases, because there will be times you need to pull non-renewable energy from the grid. It should offer some sort of buffer however, because for maybe 40% or 50% of the year the energy the company you pay pay your money to is renewable.

There's no perfect solution. I don't think there will ever be one that doesn't involve nuclear and extensive use of renewables like tidal, with mechanisms in place to be able to use any excess power generated to do things like produce hydrogen for example.

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Originally Posted by Jones28

It's not an argument I can even be bothered trying to start, because there's no magical solution. But I do think there should be a mechanism by which you get, say, a level of protection. It maybe shouldn't preclude you from all energy price increases, because there will be times you need to pull non-renewable energy from the grid. It should offer some sort of buffer however, because for maybe 40% or 50% of the year the energy the company you pay pay your money to is renewable.

There's no perfect solution. I don't think there will ever be one that doesn't involve nuclear and extensive use of renewables like tidal, with mechanisms in place to be able to use any excess power generated to do things like produce hydrogen for example.

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The idea's not a bad one and, once we crack energy storage, we will be much more likely to have consistent renewable supply. I do think we will need alternatives, but hopefully that's a diminishing proportion.

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Originally Posted by Jones28

I think it’s arguable that if you signed up to be with a green energy supplier (Bulb were for example) then you should have been protected from the rise in gas prices.

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100% renewable!! But they went down because they had to pay extra for the gas premium price.

The government paid hundreds of millions last year to companies to switch off wind turbines as the infrastructure can’t cope with the electricity produced. That’s shameful.

They need the power down south but the cables linking Scotland with the populist centres aren’t big enough.

Good programme about power production with that Guy Martin available on C4 on demand

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

100% renewable!! But they went down because they had to pay extra for the gas premium price.

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Because renewables can't provide consistent supply.

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Originally Posted by Hibs4185

The government paid hundreds of millions last year to companies to switch off wind turbines as the infrastructure can’t cope with the electricity produced. That’s shameful.

They need the power down south but the cables linking Scotland with the populist centres aren’t big enough.

Good programme about power production with that Guy Martin available on C4 on demand

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It will be an issue until we crack energy storage.

Another major problem is heating our homes. Will be decades before we fully switch to electric heating

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Originally Posted by archie

Because renewables can't provide consistent supply.

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It depends how you define ‘consistent’. If that means full supply every time you want it for as long as you want it in a domestic environment, maybe that’s not an option anymore?

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

It depends how you define ‘consistent’. If that means full supply every time you want it for as long as you want it in a domestic environment, maybe that’s not an option anymore?

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Well that's what I had in mind, yes.

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

It depends how you define ‘consistent’. If that means full supply every time you want it for as long as you want it in a domestic environment, maybe that’s not an option anymore?

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Reflecting on this, I think what you are suggesting is a really tough sell

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Originally Posted by archie

Reflecting on this, I think what you are suggesting is a really tough sell

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It’s almost inevitable, it won’t be a matter of governments or scientists selling it as an idea to the population, it will just be fact. Resources are finite. Just two examples off the top of my head, this summer in France when there was no rain for months, nuclear power stations were having to ration supply when the fuel rods weren’t receiving enough water because of low water levels. People were learning to use electricity at certain times and to ration their use. Showers at certain times.

Similarly, I have an electric charging point in the outside of my house for my car. When I need a charge, I decide whether to get a fast charge which will cost me more but give me more power at 7kw, or do it at 1kw,or also to stick it on overnight when the demands at its lowest and its cheaper, for times when my need isn’t great.

I’m sure there are many other examples, not limited to electricity supply but use part of the same wider pattern. It’s not always about shivering in some cold post apocalyptic wasteland of Green austerity or some gammony cliche , but making conscious choices about what’s necessary and what isn’t.

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

It’s almost inevitable, it won’t be a matter of governments or scientists selling it as an idea to the population, it will just be fact. Resources are finite. Just two examples off the top of my head, this summer in France when there was no rain for months, nuclear power stations were having to ration supply when the fuel rods weren’t receiving enough water because of low water levels. People were learning to use electricity at certain times and to ration their use. Showers at certain times.

Similarly, I have an electric charging point in the outside of my house for my car. When I need a charge, I decide whether to get a fast charge which will cost me more but give me more power at 7kw, or do it at 1kw,or also to stick it on overnight when the demands at its lowest and its cheaper, for times when my need isn’t great.

I’m sure there are many other examples, not limited to electricity supply but use part of the same wider pattern. It’s not always about shivering in some cold post apocalyptic wasteland of Green austerity or some gammony cliche , but making conscious choices about what’s necessary and what isn’t.

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Suspect so, especially with Torness set to decommission in 5 years time. It provides baseline 1.3GW 24/7/365 (except for planned refuelling), which with fag packet maths is 45-50% of Scotlands usage. For comparison you'd need 2.5 Whitelee's to be running 24/7 with the ideal wind conditions to get the same output.

Regarding storage Whitelee have/are building battery storage. Think it will be roughly half a football pitch in size and will hold enough storage to power 150,000 homes for one hour. How sustainable building a warehouse half the size of Hampden and filling it with batteries so 150,000 homes can be powered for 1 hour is I have no idea...? I guess in conjunction with gravitational energy storage such as the one down the Leith Docks it could fill the gaps for renewables (https://www.engineernewsnetwork.com/...-demonstrator/)

If anyone has any decent reading or viewing on what we're going to do with all these spent lithium-ion batteries from cars and storage plants I'm be keen to see them. Not something I've looked into but keen to learn on it :aok:

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Originally Posted by green&left

Suspect so, especially with Torness set to decommission in 5 years time. It provides baseline 1.3GW 24/7/365 (except for planned refuelling), which with fag packet maths is 45-50% of Scotlands usage. For comparison you'd need 2.5 Whitelee's to be running 24/7 with the ideal wind conditions to get the same output.

Regarding storage Whitelee have/are building battery storage. Think it will be roughly half a football pitch in size and will hold enough storage to power 150,000 homes for one hour. How sustainable building a warehouse half the size of Hampden and filling it with batteries so 150,000 homes can be powered for 1 hour is I have no idea...? I guess in conjunction with gravitational energy storage such as the one down the Leith Docks it could fill the gaps for renewables (https://www.engineernewsnetwork.com/...-demonstrator/)

If anyone has any decent reading or viewing on what we're going to do with all these spent lithium-ion batteries from cars and storage plants I'm be keen to see them. Not something I've looked into but keen to learn on it :aok:

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Obviously the production process has a carbon footprint and as you say the spent batteries will need to be disposed of. I suppose one reason why they are considered green is they don’t contain toxic metals so won’t pollute after use.

Just build a massive wall with them. Either use them to play a huge game of Jenga with the rest of the world, or use the wall to keep all the small boats fleeing war and envirodevastation, depending on your point of view :agree:

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

Obviously the production process has a carbon footprint and as you say the spent batteries will need to be disposed of. I suppose one reason why they are considered green is they don’t contain toxic metals so won’t pollute after use.

Just build a massive wall with them. Either use them to play a huge game of Jenga with the rest of the world, or use the wall to keep all the small boats fleeing war and envirodevastation, depending on your point of view :agree:

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You can get batteries for your home than will store a full days supply. They can also help you only pay the overnight cost of electricity. Cost about £5k I think but if enough people had them then storage issues could be alleviated.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

You can get batteries for your home than will store a full days supply. They can also help you only pay the overnight cost of electricity. Cost about £5k I think but if enough people had them then storage issues could be alleviated.


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This is the future imo. More self generation and less reliance on the grid. It obviously won't work for all or mean we need to completely abandon mass energy generation but micro renewables and battery storage are the way forward.

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Originally Posted by neil7908

This is the future imo. More self generation and less reliance on the grid. It obviously won't work for all or mean we need to completely abandon mass energy generation but micro renewables and battery storage are the way forward.

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Obviously tougher in an urban environment. Isn’t one of the options to use electric car batteries as storage now. I know there are concerns about cycling, but I have seen proposals to charge the car at night and feed the grid during peak times.

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Originally Posted by archie

Obviously tougher in an urban environment. Isn’t one of the options to use electric car batteries as storage now. I know there are concerns about cycling, but I have seen proposals to charge the car at night and feed the grid during peak times.

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Exactly. Vehicle to Grid (V2G) as you've described above has the potential to be a huge benefit. Your right that the challenges are much harder for say urban dwellers in a block of flats, and personally that's why we'll always need some form of mass generation through wind farms, nuclear etc. But we need to start shifting the balance. Technology is going to make some of this much easier if its deployed in the correct way (that's a big if though!)

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Originally Posted by neil7908

Exactly. Vehicle to Grid (V2G) as you've described above has the potential to be a huge benefit. Your right that the challenges are much harder for say urban dwellers in a block of flats, and personally that's why we'll always need some form of mass generation through wind farms, nuclear etc. But we need to start shifting the balance. Technology is going to make some of this much easier if its deployed in the correct way (that's a big if though!)

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The only problem I can see with V2G is that it requires individuals to keep their EV connected even when charged.

I have said for years that it should be policy for every new build to have full solar PV on the roof with battery storage for evening use.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

The only problem I can see with V2G is that it requires individuals to keep their EV connected even when charged.

I have said for years that it should be policy for every new build to have full solar PV on the roof with battery storage for evening use.

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I think solar panels are a requirement of new builds, for recent sites anyway (2018/19?). Not sure battery storage is standard though.

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Originally Posted by danhibees1875

I think solar panels are a requirement of new builds, for recent sites anyway (2018/19?). Not sure battery storage is standard though.

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Most solar instals are marketed with an element of battery storage now because the feed in tariffs for the grid are no longer as good as they used to be.


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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-64886116

Another interesting carbon capture/removal idea that seems to be showing promise.

Obviously we have to be wary of putting too much trust in stuff like this and just carrying on as now but I suppose it could be argue this kind of thing buys us more time and smooth the transition to a lower carbon economy.

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Originally Posted by archie

It will be an issue until we crack energy storage.

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They're going to need an awful lot more of these types of things: https://www.power-technology.com/pro...hydro-project/

It's planned for a couple of miles down the road from my house and will pump water up from Loch Ness during times of surplus and let the water back down into Loch Ness when it is needed. It's an ideal location for it given the height difference in such a short distance from Loch Ness and the close proximity of at least 4 windfarms within 5 - 10 miles of it.

I'm not sure if it is part of planning applications now but there really should be a condition of granting permission for new on and offshore windfarms that investment is made into storage solutions like this in order to assist the grid instead of them being paid to shut their turbines down.

Interestingly, the scheme near me is one of the things that Inverness Caley Thistle are banking on assisting with their financial issues that they are encountering at the minute. I'm not sure what sort of stake they have in it though.

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Originally Posted by danhibees1875

I think solar panels are a requirement of new builds, for recent sites anyway (2018/19?). Not sure battery storage is standard though.

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I don't think it is an absolute requirement in the sense that it isn't mandatory to have PV panels, however it certainly is one of the most straightforward ways to get a house through the requirements of section 6 of the Scottish Technical Standards.

Similarly, for non-domestic properties, it used to be that the simplest way to pass the requirements of section 6 would be to add a heap of PV panels to the roof of the building, however the new regulations that came into force this year are more focused on ensuring new buildings are as energy efficient as possible, thus reducing grid demand through efficient design rather than bolting on a pile of PV panels.

Whilst PV panels might provide a solution in terms of local power generation and reducing grid reliance, there's an argument that they aren't actually that green a technology given the high embodied carbon and energy that goes into the manufacturing and disposal of silicon PV systems. Traditionally the high embodied carbon of silicon PV panels was offset by the high grid carbon factor such that you'd be in the positive in terms of carbon reduction after a few years, but given that grid decarbonisation is rapidly reducing the grid carbon factors, it's getting to the point where the embodied carbon of a typical silicon PV panel is more than the carbon is saves by not using grid electricity over the life of the panel.

Interesting the common weal attacks the government government again. Privatisation again but this time over tree planting

https://commonweal.scot/scotlands-mo...ing-us-poorer/

Is there no aspect of Scotland which isn’t there mainly to make the very rich richer? Is there no limit to how much the Scottish Government will bust a gut to increase the pace at which Scotland is asset-stripped by the wealthy

Populist push back against green policies? https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...utch-elections

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Originally Posted by archie

Populist push back against green policies? https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...utch-elections

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Our planet is ****ed.

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Originally Posted by archie

Populist push back against green policies? https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...utch-elections

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It’s only one result in the Dutch provincial elections, not at the State level. However it is fascinating how massive Dutch Agribusiness has managed to persuade a section of disenfranchised poor Dutch voters that they have something in common. That’s what happens when traditional working class parties alienate their core supporters, as we’ve seen across the west. I think the Guardians take on the story is a bit weird tbh. It’s not really a Green anti green dynamic.

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

It’s only one result in the Dutch provincial elections, not at the State level. However it is fascinating how massive Dutch Agribusiness has managed to persuade a section of disenfranchised poor Dutch voters that they have something in common. That’s what happens when traditional working class parties alienate their core supporters, as we’ve seen across the west. I think the Guardians take on the story is a bit weird tbh. It’s not really a Green anti green dynamic.

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Mix that in with, despite the country's reputation for liberalism and "progressive" values, outside of the main cities, it's actually very conservative.

In that light, the results don't surprise me too much.

Interesting graph on how livable the future will be for children born now

https://mobile.twitter.com/frantecol...05034528370689

A new poll says the Dutch farming party would take 33 seats and be the biggest party

An interesting thread on Netherlands disregard for the environment and why they are being told to cut nitrogen use
https://mobile.twitter.com/tiesjoost...66534357098498

Uk helping climate change too, well climate change for the worse

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel...-b2307530.html

Flight tax cut sparks surge in new UK domestic flights
Air Passenger Duty for internal links will be cut from £13 to £6.50 on 1 April

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The UK has almost no credible plans to adapt to climate change

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https://www.newscientist.com/article...limate-change/

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ritains-heaths

I found this really interesting (particularly if you’re of the ‘practical solutions to climate issues without the culture war’ ilk). I had given no thought at all to the possibility that MoD land could be a haven for biodiversity, but of course it is. I wonder if there’s ever been surveys of the shooting range areas in the Pentlands? The DMZ between the two Koreas is a much more extreme example of no-go areas that become havens-there are species extinct elsewhere on the peninsula (a rare deer, rumours of Siberian tiger) on that narrow strip of land-A reminder that in the darkest times nature can find wee niches.

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ritains-heaths

I found this really interesting (particularly if you’re of the ‘practical solutions to climate issues without the culture war’ ilk). I had given no thought at all to the possibility that MoD land could be a haven for biodiversity, but of course it is. I wonder if there’s ever been surveys of the shooting range areas in the Pentlands? The DMZ between the two Koreas is a much more extreme example of no-go areas that become havens-there are species extinct elsewhere on the peninsula (a rare deer, rumours of Siberian tiger) on that narrow strip of land-A reminder that in the darkest times nature can find wee niches.

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I suppose it is obvious when you think about it. The less humans that touch a place the better it becomes for nature and the planet

Sea grass made an appearance In Attenboroughs Wild Isles this evening, for those interested in what the stuff that will soon be coating the Granton seabed actually looks like.

https://www.palladiummag.com/2023/04...re-collapsing/

Nothing to do with climate change but it is an issue that presents us with dangers going forward for sustainability. Especially in Scotland with our plummeting birth rate.


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https://twitter.com/cnn/status/16457...dxJXScFNwz8V4A
Americans moving to electric cars.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://www.palladiummag.com/2023/04...re-collapsing/

Nothing to do with climate change but it is an issue that presents us with dangers going forward for sustainability. Especially in Scotland with our plummeting birth rate.


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it's linked to climate change in so far as that it might actually be a good thing on that front, and necessitate a move away from growth based economies. that's not to say it will be fun :no way:

On the face of it this seems a positive:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-65240094

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Originally Posted by AgentDaleCooper

anyone worried about it?

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I would not go as far as to say that I am a climate change denialist. But I am concerned that the crisis is being exploited by corporations, governments and councils, for monetary gain.

Then again, I have a past history of being wrong about certain things, so this could be yet another theory that I am wrong about.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://www.palladiummag.com/2023/04...re-collapsing/

Nothing to do with climate change but it is an issue that presents us with dangers going forward for sustainability. Especially in Scotland with our plummeting birth rate.


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One of the fundamental issues is that having kids these days just isn't all that attractive.

I love my children dearly (obviously) but there is little doubt they have put a strain on our household finances. We really can't afford a house big enough for us as a family of 4 never mind adding another 1 or 2 into the mix. The lack of funded childcare for under 3s means my wife has had to switch down to part time hours. Feeding a family isn't cheap, heating a house for a family isn't cheap, clothing a family isn't cheap etc etc. I daresay it's always been thus but it feels that over the last 15-20 years, arguably a bit longer, the costs have risen at a rate not matched by wages, particularly when it comes to housing.

As the article suggests I know a decent number of friends and family who have no children and have absolutely no desire to have them and of those that do most have 1 or 2 and have taken steps to ensure that is it. I'd love more children, everything about them fascinates me, I love spending time with them and watching them grow and develop their own personalities and characters. The fact is though I just can't afford it and it would be irresponsible to make such a decision.

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

One of the fundamental issues is that having kids these days just isn't all that attractive.

I love my children dearly (obviously) but there is little doubt they have put a strain on our household finances. We really can't afford a house big enough for us as a family of 4 never mind adding another 1 or 2 into the mix. The lack of funded childcare for under 3s means my wife has had to switch down to part time hours. Feeding a family isn't cheap, heating a house for a family isn't cheap, clothing a family isn't cheap etc etc. I daresay it's always been thus but it feels that over the last 15-20 years, arguably a bit longer, the costs have risen at a rate not matched by wages, particularly when it comes to housing.

As the article suggests I know a decent number of friends and family who have no children and have absolutely no desire to have them and of those that do most have 1 or 2 and have taken steps to ensure that is it. I'd love more children, everything about them fascinates me, I love spending time with them and watching them grow and develop their own personalities and characters. The fact is though I just can't afford it and it would be irresponsible to make such a decision.

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Totally agree. Scotland need people to start having more children. To do that we need to put in place policies to make that an attractive choice. Number one in that has to be housing. There has to be a supply of houses that makes it so that a young couple on average wages can easily afford a family home, whether that is renting or buying.
We then have to make sure that childcare is available and affordable.
And we also have to make sure that we have an amazing education system for these children to go into.
Sadly, I don’t think any of this will happen.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Totally agree. Scotland need people to start having more children. To do that we need to put in place policies to make that an attractive choice. Number one in that has to be housing. There has to be a supply of houses that makes it so that a young couple on average wages can easily afford a family home, whether that is renting or buying.
We then have to make sure that childcare is available and affordable.
And we also have to make sure that we have an amazing education system for these children to go into.
Sadly, I don’t think any of this will happen.


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I didn’t think it’s just about finances and living situation.

Imo many people just don’t want to have more than 1 or 2 kids many more in the the way that the post war generation were happy to do. There are probably a lot of factors in this with the most likely being Woman’s equal role in the workplace / earning income compared to previous generations where woman were viewed as mothers first and everything else second to that .

The number of families having 3+ kids isn’t enough to balance out the number of people who have no kids or just the 1, through choice or otherwise. The population isn’t going to go up without immigration any time soon.

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Originally Posted by Paul1642

The population isn’t going to go up without immigration any time soon.

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This has always been the case. We are a nation reliant on a healthy number of immigrants coming into the workforce. The probelm is that there's nowhere for them to live any more, there is literally no affordable housing available. I've been in the system of seeking affordable housing for 8 years now and I keep getting constantly told no, so I'm stuck in a 1 bedroom flat with 3 kids and unable to afford private rental rates for larger properties.

We need young voters to start voting for parties that will put affordable housing at the very top of the agenda as not many old boomers will use their vote to willingly reduce their house price, ti's why the Tories continue to get massive numbers of voters. The problem with that is that young voters simply do not turn out in the numbers needed to enforce change in their society. I was guilty of it myself as I'm sure a load of us all were, I don't think I started voting until society started failing me. There's no easy answer.

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Originally Posted by The_Exile

This has always been the case. We are a nation reliant on a healthy number of immigrants coming into the workforce. The probelm is that there's nowhere for them to live any more, there is literally no affordable housing available. I've been in the system of seeking affordable housing for 8 years now and I keep getting constantly told no, so I'm stuck in a 1 bedroom flat with 3 kids and unable to afford private rental rates for larger properties.

We need young voters to start voting for parties that will put affordable housing at the very top of the agenda as not many old boomers will use their vote to willingly reduce their house price, ti's why the Tories continue to get massive numbers of voters. The problem with that is that young voters simply do not turn out in the numbers needed to enforce change in their society. I was guilty of it myself as I'm sure a load of us all were, I don't think I started voting until society started failing me. There's no easy answer.

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The fundamental issue is that no parties are offering anything radical with regards to housing. I think Scottish Labour mentioned something about compulsory purchase orders on empty properties and selling them for £1 to people who committed to living in them for 5 years (broadly that was it, I can't totally recall). That's the kind of thing that would win my vote.

It's bizarre. It's a huge youth vote winner across the country. I've said it before but the stats don't lie. House prices have raced ahead of average wages, ownership is stagnating in all age groups and falling in under 40s. The status quo is unsustainable.

https://news.stv.tv/sport/just-stop-...kins-and-perry


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://news.stv.tv/sport/just-stop-...kins-and-perry


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Getting the usual derision on social media.

It's really quite depressing to read some of the comments.

I don’t like snooker. And the cause couldn’t be more important, so good on him. It’s not hurting anyone, think of it as a bit of performance art. And folk threatening to kick **** out of him online says more about the people involved really.

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Originally Posted by Jones28

Getting the usual derision on social media.

It's really quite depressing to read some of the comments.

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Stephen Hendry tackling the big issue it seems

“It is scary. Wow! You just hope the cloth can be recovered from that. It caught us all by surprise and then this happens.

For me, straight away as a snooker player I am thinking: ‘Is the table recoverable?’"

[emoji1787]

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

I don’t like snooker. And the cause couldn’t be more important, so good on him. It’s not hurting anyone, think of it as a bit of performance art. And folk threatening to kick **** out of him online says more about the people involved really.

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I get that the protestors see it as a more important issue to raise awareness about, but I can’t help but see it as quite a selfish act. I love snooker, and go to the world championships every year. It’s not cheap and that protestor ruined the session for those that had payed good money to watch a match.

Protests, by their nature are likely to be disruptive, but stunts like last night put me off supporting whatever worthwhile causes the protest is about. There’s lots of better targets and opportunities to protest at and doing so at the expense of the public is counterproductive IMO.

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Originally Posted by The Modfather

I get that the protestors see it as a more important issue to raise awareness about, but I can’t help but see it as quite a selfish act. I love snooker, and go to the world championships every year. It’s not cheap and that protestor ruined the session for those that had payed good money to watch a match.

Protests, by their nature are likely to be disruptive, but stunts like last night put me off supporting whatever worthwhile causes the protest is about. There’s lots of better targets and opportunities to protest at and doing so at the expense of the public is counterproductive IMO.

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Interesting choice of phrase; ‘selfish act’. It’s probably the prevalence of billions of individual selfish acts that have got us to the point we are at right now. (I obviously don’t exclude myself from that analysis). 2023 is going to be a pressure cooker of a year with El Niño making a comeback. If that dude genuinely is enough to put you or put anyone else off doing anything to contribute to mitigating what’s going on, they probably weren’t going to do it anyway.

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

Stephen Hendry tackling the big issue it seems

“It is scary. Wow! You just hope the cloth can be recovered from that. It caught us all by surprise and then this happens.

For me, straight away as a snooker player I am thinking: ‘Is the table recoverable?’"

[emoji1787]

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I hadn’t realised he’d gone into satire. That’s pretty funny for a Jambo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Modfather

I get that the protestors see it as a more important issue to raise awareness about, but I can’t help but see it as quite a selfish act. I love snooker, and go to the world championships every year. It’s not cheap and that protestor ruined the session for those that had payed good money to watch a match.

Protests, by their nature are likely to be disruptive, but stunts like last night put me off supporting whatever worthwhile causes the protest is about. There’s lots of better targets and opportunities to protest at and doing so at the expense of the public is counterproductive IMO.

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The same could be said for any industrial action, no? Inconveniencing the public is the whole point IMO.

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

Interesting choice of phrase; ‘selfish act’. It’s probably the prevalence of billions of individual selfish acts that have got us to the point we are at right now. (I obviously don’t exclude myself from that analysis). 2023 is going to be a pressure cooker of a year with El Niño making a comeback. If that dude genuinely is enough to put you or put anyone else off doing anything to contribute to mitigating what’s going on, they probably weren’t going to do it anyway.

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By put me off I don’t mean I’m off out to buy more petrol because of this stunt. More that I’m less likely to support protestors in these instances than if they had chosen different targets. Not a great equivalence, but take terrorism. Obviously we don’t agree with their methods, but I could at least better understand bombing places of authority than hotels or stadiums to support whatever the cause is.

Cynically, I can’t help but think examples like yesterday are as much about the individuals 15 minutes of fame as it choosing the target that will have the biggest impact or best chance of producing productive results.