Vaccine Passports for Easter Road

Cheers for clearing that up

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Response to First Minister’s vaccine certification announcement

The Joint Response Group notes the First Minister’s comments today regarding the potential implementation of a COVID-19 vaccine certification process as a prerequisite for entry into outdoor events with more than 10,000 people in attendance, including football matches.

Scottish football is committed to the ongoing collective effort to eradicate the virus and continues to adhere to the strictest protocols even after restrictions were lifted across society.

Indeed, on Monday the National Clinical Director, Professor Jason Leitch, gave a presentation to players and clubs on the clinical facts behind vaccination, to expedite the roll-out within the game.

None the less, we have today raised concerns on the considerable unintended consequences of implementing a certification process without sufficient time or appropriate IT infrastructure in place.

We will endeavour to establish full details in the coming days but stress the need to ensure a practical and workable solution for member clubs, their staff and supporters; in particular season ticket holders who bought their tickets in good faith and on the understanding they would be allowed back into the stadium when restrictions were lifted.

We ask ministers to carefully consider the unintended consequences of certification, especially in such a short timeframe, and request a meeting with Scottish Government to discuss the matter and its implications for clubs prior to a parliamentary vote.

https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/news/jr...y-1-september/


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Anti-Vaxxers need their head examined for believing some ***** they read on the internet. On a par with Trumpism. Absolutely baffling.

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Originally Posted by Dazzling Doidge

Anti-Vaxxers need their head examined for believing some ***** they read on the internet. On a par with Trumpism. Absolutely baffling.

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And remember, this didn't just suddenly emerge out of pandemic. People with those kinds of views walk among us ALL THE TIME.

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Originally Posted by Dazzling Doidge

Anti-Vaxxers need their head examined for believing some ***** they read on the internet. On a par with Trumpism. Absolutely baffling.

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Don't vaxxers and anti-vaxxers all get information from the internet?

If folk haven't had the vaccine because they can't be bothered or think it's all a hoax then tough ****. That's all I'm saying on it.

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Originally Posted by Hibee Mac

Shouldn't be an issue, most of the over 18 population should be vaccinated by the time this comes into place and if they're not it's probably either an anomaly or because they chose not to get it.

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Which is why I can't see the point. Over 80% of the population have had a vaccine. Over 85% of those over 40 have had both doses. This will make getting in far more time consuming and mean people are actually next to each other longer. This seems like an unnecessary grab of our freedoms and in the greater scheme of things those freedoms have been hugely reduced year on year. I hoped the SG would rise above this but looks like they will fall in with the political flock.

I say that as someone who has had both doses but it will clearly go against equality laws if this is implemented

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Originally Posted by wookie70

Which is why I can't see the point. Over 80% of the population have had a vaccine. Over 85% of those over 40 have had the vaccine. This will make getting in far more time consuming and mean people are actually next to each other longer. This seems like an unnecessary grab of our freedoms and in the greater scheme of things those freedoms have been hugely reduced year on year. I hoped the SG would rise above this but looks like they will fall in with the political flock.

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It's not an attack on freedom at all. You are free to not get the vaccine.

If you travel to a lot of countries you have to get a vaccine for many things, you can say no. You just can't go that country. This is no different.

I totally support this move and in my opinion it should extend even further to include restaurants and pubs etc which are even higher risk environments than Easter Road.

Hopefully this means those of who have done all we can will be able to continue leading as normal a life as possible.

We need to try everything possible to prevent further restrictions and I see this as the best way to try and achieve that.

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Originally Posted by hibby rae

Can you provide an example of a previous point in history when people couldn't go to a football match or gig because they refused a vaccine? Because that's all it is, this is not the dawn of a totalitarian state.

There is no reason to be concerned. Restrictions have been largely lifted so it is already ending, those that choose to not get the vaccine will miss out on things that is all. Their choice, deal with it.

The covid vaccine will be here to stay, just like polio, the mmr, and the flu vaccine.

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I think you are maybe deliberately misunderstanding my point, but I'm not reassured by your take on the future of our society.

Are Polio, MMR and the Flu vaccination edging towards becoming mandatory measures?

I do agree with your point about Covid vaccination being here to stay though.

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Originally Posted by Hibee Mac

Shouldn't be an issue, most of the over 18 population should be vaccinated by the time this comes into place and if they're not it's probably either an anomaly or because they chose not to get it.

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Only 51% of 18-29 year olds have have their first dose… this could come into force from next weekend… I can’t see the other 49% getting vaccinated in a week.

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Originally Posted by hibby rae

It's not an attack on freedom at all. You are free to not get the vaccine.

If you travel to a lot of countries you have to get a vaccine for many things, you can say no. You just can't go that country. This is no different.

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The difference with those vaccinations is the vaccines you get for going to places like India have high death rates. If I was to catch rabies there's a 95% chance I'll die. If I was to catch covid there's around 0.08 chance I will die.

I’m double jabbed and have no issues stating this, but the vaccination isn’t mandatory, therefore how can you tell someone they don’t have to get something, and then ban them from doing a whole load of things? Honestly makes no sense and would be an interesting debate regarding Data Protection, showing random stewards/football staff your medical records.

I had a guy coughing his lungs out behind me the whole game on Saturday.
Of course totally unconcerned about the pandemic and other people around him never once put a mask on.fair enough I have no idea what was wrong with him but sure as u like I would have one on if I had a cough,at least to show some solidarity to folk around in fighting the Covid spread.
My main point is this boy could’ve been double jagged had proof of that but still entered ,coughed all game and spread the virus freely. Enough is enough with all the restrictions to people ,as long as people have no regard for fellow supporters this will remain an issue regardless of vaccination proof.

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Originally Posted by SChibs

The difference with those vaccinations is the vaccines you get for going to places like India have high death rates. If I was to catch rabies there's a 95% chance I'll die. If I was to catch covid there's around 0.08 chance I will die.

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But they are all still highly infectious, hence the restrictions. The chance of death from covid varies from person to person, this is one thing we do know. But there are a lot of things we still don't, like long lasting effects on survivors.

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

I think you are maybe deliberately misunderstanding my point, but I'm not reassured by your take on the future of our society.

Are Polio, MMR and the Flu vaccination edging towards becoming mandatory measures?

I do agree with your point about Covid vaccination being here to stay though.

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Have you considered you aren't making your point that well?

No offence but asking 'where will it end?' repeatedly isn't much of an argument.

Especially as you're overlooking the end of emergency powers which the government had. And even then parliament had to approve them.

Restrictions are rolling back, so the opposite of what you fear is actually happening.

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Originally Posted by hibby rae

It's not an attack on freedom at all. You are free to not get the vaccine.

If you travel to a lot of countries you have to get a vaccine for many things, you can say no. You just can't go that country. This is no different.

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If I chose to not have a vaccine due to health reasons I will be excluded from watching Hibs even if I have a season ticket. Meanwhile those healthy enough to have the vaccine will be allowed to attend. That is nowhere near freedom as far as I am concerned and this is a slippery slope to me especially when you see how quickly citizens are happy to lose freedoms. It is the ID card in another form imo.

This is different to foreign travel. This is our government potentially discriminating against its citizen. totally different to a country making rules for citizens of other countries.

There are worrying signs that the UK governments are going to try and make vaccinations compulsory by stealth by excluding those who don't have them. My daughter who is u18 will not require one. She attends school with hundreds of others, very little signs of social distancing when I see them walking up the road and next to none of them vaccinated. I am double vaccinated, am I more or less likely to pass the virus on that a 16 year old because of a bit of paper. I could extend your argument and say that U18s shouldn't be allowed to attend unless double vaccinated.

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Originally Posted by wookie70

Which is why I can't see the point. Over 80% of the population have had a vaccine. Over 85% of those over 40 have had both doses. This will make getting in far more time consuming and mean people are actually next to each other longer. This seems like an unnecessary grab of our freedoms and in the greater scheme of things those freedoms have been hugely reduced year on year. I hoped the SG would rise above this but looks like they will fall in with the political flock.

I say that as someone who has had both doses but it will clearly go against equality laws if this is implemented

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Agree, it makes no sense to have a 75% full Dens or Tannadice at under 10000 get away with it but a 51% full ER, PBS or Pittodrie has to have it.

It makes no sense to restrict events then they only open selected stands making people sit in closer proximity.

I'm double vaxxed and if I can still catch it and possibly worse pass it on, then why are they allowing full capacities?

Got tickets for the Scotland game on Saturday if this comes in it will be my last for a while. Not because of any freedom issues but because our useless Govs make it more dangerous by saying it's ok if you're double vaxxed but then say you can still catch and pass on to someone vulnerable.

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

I think you are maybe deliberately misunderstanding my point, but I'm not reassured by your take on the future of our society.

Are Polio, MMR and the Flu vaccination edging towards becoming mandatory measures?

I do agree with your point about Covid vaccination being here to stay though.

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If we were in the middle of a polio, measles, mumps, rubella or flu pandemic then I would expect vaccination against these illnesses to become mandatory measures.

I'm normally very much against state interference in people's lives but we are currently in the midst of a global pandemic with a very real threat of being forced back into restrictions again very soon, I believe this is a good alternative to trying to prevent that from happening.

Once Covid-19 is no longer a danger towards our health service, if people still need to prove they have been vaccinated to get into the football then I'll be at the front of the queue when it comes to protesting against people's civil liberties being breached but at the moment I feel this is a necessary step in trying to maintain the largely restriction-free life we have enjoyed over the last 3 weeks.

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Originally Posted by Brummie_Hibs

Okay, they are effective at reducing illness. But that is about it - they are not making you immune, and you can still get very ill and die, and you are now needing regular boosters.

So they are effective at reducing hospital backlogs - which is good. However, there is no pressure on the NHS these days - it is under control. So I don't see the point in these passports.

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Absolute rubbish that there’s no pressure on the NHS…. I have many friends and family who work in the NHS and they’re absolutely swamped!!

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

You're making a point about your decision to get a flu vaccine and trying to make an analogy with restrictions facing people who choose to be unvaccinated. It's not really the same as the direction of travel were going down with coercive measures and Covid, is it?

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It’s not coercive measures….!! It’s for the safety of the many!!

Scot Gov proposal is that those with unavoidable reasons for not having had their jags will be exempt. Hopefully they will be given a passport,and any chance of unfairness goes away.

Beyond that - nae vacc? Nae fitba. Nae luck.

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Originally Posted by douglashibs

The only pandemic right now is one of hysteria. Let’s see how happy everyone is when you have to take a third jab to be considered vaccinated, as in Israel. Then a fourth?

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Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear
Now I know you’re only positing this for attention but I’ll bite. Pandemic is where a virus or similar illness is a threat to every person on the planet. The current declared new case rate of circa 750,000 people currently confirmed to have the virus every day is testament to that.
They current declared death rate is over 10,000 soles every day.
So far over 4.5 million people have died and no obvious let up. That’s pandemic.
Endemic is when it becomes a dangerous illness that will cause a tragic but manageable number of serious illnesses and deaths.
This thing is still there and there is a fair chance it is not finished with us yet, here in the UK.
Flippant comments are utterly disrespectful to those that have been seriously ill and especially to those who have lost loved ones to this awful pandemic.

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

You're making a point about your decision to get a flu vaccine and trying to make an analogy with restrictions facing people who choose to be unvaccinated. It's not really the same as the direction of travel were going down with coercive measures and Covid, is it?

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No, but everything in life is a choice. Choice and consequence.

If this helps people choose to have a vaccine then I’m fine with that.

Vaccine is the only way to get back to normal. They work. If the population needs a nudge then hopefully they take the hint.

J

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Originally Posted by Glory Lurker

Scot Gov proposal is that those with unavoidable reasons for not having had their jags will be exempt. Hopefully they will be given a passport,and any chance of unfairness goes away.

Beyond that - nae vacc? Nae fitba. Nae luck.

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This

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Originally Posted by CentreLine

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear
Now I know you’re only positing this for attention but I’ll bite. Pandemic is where a virus or similar illness is a threat to every person on the planet. The current declared death rate of circa 750,000 people currently dying every day is testament to that.
So far over 4.5 million people have died and no obvious let up. That’s pandemic.
Endemic is when it becomes a dangerous illness that will cause a tragic but manageable number of serious illnesses and deaths.
This thing is still there and there is a fair chance it is not finished with us yet, here in the UK.
Flippant comments are utterly disrespectful to those that have been seriously ill and especially to those who have lost loved ones to this awful pandemic.

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I agree with you, mostly, but there aren’t 750000 people dying a day from it

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Originally Posted by BlackSheep

Only 51% of 18-29 year olds have have their first dose… this could come into force from next weekend… I can’t see the other 49% getting vaccinated in a week.

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I'm in that age group myself and there is absolutely no reason for anyone in that age group to have not had your first jab by now. Even disregarding the bookable vaccinations which have been open for months there have also been drop in centres for ages, no appointment required.

Barring some exceptional medical circumstances, the only reason would be if they chose not to have it, in which case I don't think they have any reason to complain.

Does anyone no if it is a free vote in the Parliament if it is then it won't pass but if snp and green party tell there mps to vote for the motion then it will pass

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Originally Posted by douglashibs

The only pandemic right now is one of hysteria. Let’s see how happy everyone is when you have to take a third jab to be considered vaccinated, as in Israel. Then a fourth?

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Is this meant to be a joke?

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Originally Posted by Keith_M

Is this meant to be a joke?

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I laughed…

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Originally Posted by Casey1875

It was my choice not to have it and I am happy to live with that rather than do something I am not comfortable with, considering that it wasn't part of the T&C's of entry when I bought it I will be expecting a refund for my season ticket though.

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That’s an interesting point that I was just having a look at, purely out of interest. The Season Ticket Terms and Conditions (https://d3tepru76oevpi.cloudfront.ne...s-Home-STs.pdf) include the following:

14. The Club reserves the right to refuse admission or eject from the stadium and/or withdraw the season ticket from any person at any time, should the person contravene any Ground Regulations.


Now the Ground Regulations may include something along the lines of supporters agreeing to comply with all relevant laws and regulations governing entry to the ground - which would likely (bearing in mind the relevant law has probably not been drafted yet and will only be debated in Holyrood next week) be broad enough to cover the club refusing entry. The trouble is that I can’t find a document titled “Ground Regulations” on the Hibs website. Does it exist online? I can see a couple of images (albeit of only half of the regulations or thereabouts) taken outside the ground, but not the full document.

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Originally Posted by BlackSheep

Absolute rubbish that there’s no pressure on the NHS…. I have many friends and family who work in the NHS and they’re absolutely swamped!!

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Totally agree and also have relations in NHS. The NHS staff are currently fried and there is no light at the end of the tunnel as it stands.
Added to that, two close relations have just spent several days in hospital and it was patently clear the pressure the staff at the ERI are under.
Utter joke to deny this is happening

I know of two brothers that refused to take the jag, one has died two weeks ago, the other has now taken the jag. The one that died has left 2 kids behind, the other brother thinks his daughter gave him it after coming home from school. Folks, just dont refuse it for the sake of refusing it, its a lifesaver.
Christ, most folks dont think twice about taking jags when going to exotic countries.

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Originally Posted by BlackSheep

Only 51% of 18-29 year olds have have their first dose… this could come into force from next weekend… I can’t see the other 49% getting vaccinated in a week.

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51% have had both doses.

All over 18s have been able to get their first dose for over 2 months now so I'd suggest that the majority of the
25.7% of that age group who are still completely unvaccinated just don't want it.

They've certainly had ample opportunity to get their appointment.

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Originally Posted by CentreLine

Those are the figures. My gut feeling is to agree with you. That is only the figure countries are prepared to release. The true figure will be considerably larger than that

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A day? That’s not the figures I’ve seen anywhere. Maybe 7500 deaths a day, nowhere near 750000.

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Originally Posted by Phil MaGlass

I know of two brothers that refused to take the jag, one has died two weeks ago, the other has now taken the jag. The one that died has left 2 kids behind, the other brother thinks his daughter gave him it after coming home from school. Folks, just dont refuse it for the sake of refusing it, its a lifesaver.
Christ, most folks dont think twice about taking jags when going to exotic countries.

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I was chatting to a person who told me they we’re an intravenous drug user the other day, while leaving a small donation in their cup. I just find it incredibly sad that this person is prepared to inject street sourced drugs in their body but wanted to tell me that it’s not safe to take a covid vaccine and covid is a worldwide hoax.

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Originally Posted by Sioux

I've been abroad a couple of times recently and a screen shot is not an acceptable form of proof. The actual letter is required. Which is a bit of a pain because it now looks like a dog's dinner.

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The SG are saying a certificate of vaccination would be required which is what I have. I have no inclination or intention to go abroad so along with photo ID think I should be ok for the events in question. If not then I will have to get the letter.

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Originally Posted by easty

A day? That’s not the figures I’ve seen anywhere. Maybe 7500 deaths a day, nowhere near 750000.

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Aaaaaagh. That’s how misinformation get as out there. My sincere apologies, 750,000 is a the number of confirmed news cases every day.
The official number of people dying every day is tragical over 10,000.
I will now amend my previous post with apologies.

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Originally Posted by CockneyRebel

The SG are saying a certificate of vaccination would be required which is what I have. I have no inclination or intention to go abroad so along with photo ID think I should be ok for the events in question. If not then I will have to get the letter.

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A screenshot was fine for me in Antigua. Just came back at the weekend from 2 weeks there.

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Originally Posted by CentreLine

Aaaaaagh. That’s how misinformation get as out there. My sincere apologies, 750,000 is a the number of confirmed news cases every day.
The official number of people dying every day is tragical over 10,000.
I will now amend my previous post with apologies.

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Yeh I thought that might be it, 750000 dying a day would be incredibly scary!

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Originally Posted by easty

Yeh I thought that might be it, 750000 dying a day would be incredibly scary!

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As is 10,000 a day and that’s only the ones countries are declaring

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Originally Posted by CentreLine

Aaaaaagh. That’s how misinformation get as out there. My sincere apologies, 750,000 is a the number of confirmed news cases every day.
The official number of people dying every day is tragical over 10,000.
I will now amend my previous post with apologies.

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In terms of a 7 day average the daily death rate hasn't been 10k or over since the start of June and daily cases has started to fall in the uk over the last few days.

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Originally Posted by wookie70

In terms of a 7 day average the daily death rate hasn't been 10k or over since the start of June and daily cases has started to fall in the uk over the last few days.

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Without this turning into a pissing competition as the subject is way too serious for that perhaps the newspaper headline is just false as seen - Covid news – live: UK sees highest daily death toll in months as 500,000 to be offered third vaccine dose LIVE – Updated at 19:00 The UK has recorded 207 new Covid-19 related deaths – the highest number since March.

The total number of people who had died within 28 days of testing positive has reached 132,742.
Separate figures published by the Office for National Statistics show there have been 157,000 deaths registered in the UK where Covid-19 was mentioned on the death certificate.
The new daily figures come following a bank holiday weekend when there is usually a lag in reporting deaths and cases.
It comes after a new coronavirus strain, named Mu, has been designated a variant of interest by the World Health Organisation (WHO).

Key Points

• UK Covid-related death toll highest in six months
• Scotland tops list of UK areas with highest Covid rates
• Severely immunosuppressed people to be offered third jab
• WHO monitoring new variant of interest – called Mu
• Scotland’s increased Covid spread ‘extremely concerning’
• Scotland plans to bring in vaccine passports for events
• Johnson to press ahead with nightclub passports

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Originally Posted by A Hi-Bee

Without this turning into a pissing competition

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That looks factually correct as is what I posted. I was replying to a post that was factually incorrect and to a poster that stated they didn't want to spread misinformation.

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Originally Posted by Brummie_Hibs

Okay, they are effective at reducing illness. But that is about it - they are not making you immune, and you can still get very ill and die, and you are now needing regular boosters.

So they are effective at reducing hospital backlogs - which is good. However, there is no pressure on the NHS these days - it is under control. So I don't see the point in these passports.

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Why are you spouting rubbish that the NHS is under no pressure ?
Who told you this ?
Where did you get that information ?
Don’t you realise that you’re insulting everyone who’s almost at breaking point working for the NHS ?

You’re making things up to suit your agenda.

For your information 9 out of 11 Health Boards in Scotland are on red alert.

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

I wonder where all this will end?

I'm fully vaccinated, but I'm also deeply concerned about the erosion of freedoms and liberties that we're seeing. I'm massively against coercive approaches to promoting vaccination.

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Couldn't agree more.

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Originally Posted by wookie70

In terms of a 7 day average the daily death rate hasn't been 10k or over since the start of June and daily cases has started to fall in the uk over the last few days.

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You accuse me of misinformation? I was more than happy to acknowledge my error in misquoting the recorded v death figure in my first post but I am not about to engage in an unseemly debate over the deaths of individual people being slightly over or under 10,000 people on any individual day. Save to say that over ten thousand people have been officially recorded as having died from covid-19 on enough days this past week to make my point more than valid.
So far today WHO figured are reporting 10,124 individuals have died and the day is not over in a significant part of the world.

UK infection figures have not started to fall in the past few days. Although they may have slowed a little, 35,693 new cases were recorded in the past 24 hrs and that gives a 7 day average of 33,754 daily cases.

207 people died today in the UK having been diagnosed with covid in the past 28 days, against a steadily increasing 7 day average of 106. Scandalously, the UK sits as the country with the 8th highest number of recorded COVID-19 deaths in the world, with 132,742 deaths. Those with higher numbers, in most cases, have significantly larger populations than our own and include:
USA, Brazil, India, Mexico, Peru, Russia and Indonesia.

Yes we now have an effective vaccine programme that our government would like people to concentrate on instead of the desperately tragic numbers.

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Originally Posted by monarch

Why are you spouting rubbish that the NHS is under no pressure ?
Who told you this ?
Where did you get that information ?
Don’t you realise that you’re insulting everyone who’s almost at breaking point working for the NHS ?

You’re making things up to suit your agenda.

For your information 9 out of 11 Health Boards in Scotland are on red alert.

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The whole thing is absurd. No analysis of the other side of the coin from lockdown. Children’s education lost, mental health, economic disaster, impact on elderly from virtual imprisonments, massive reduction in cancer tests.

We need to get on with our lives and simply accept this tragic additional risk. I am double vaccinated but frankly the choice to vaccinate should be a personal one and I do not blame anyone who decides for whatever reason not to and I hope they will not be barred from events. It’s a very slippery slope when you effectively force something.. some people are prepared to take the risk, others understandably take a different view and that’s their call.

I am sure you are right 9 out of 11 NHS trusts may well be on red alert but that’s because they have crashed capacity as a result of the pandemic. It’s a separate debate as to whether that was wise.

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Originally Posted by douglashibs

Know your legal rights. As I understand it, regulations of the Scottish Parliament do not override the Equalities Act, which is primary legislation. That Act makes it illegal to discriminate on medical grounds. Hibs would be liable for refusing entry on medical grounds. No doubt the legal eagles will clarify.

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Incorrect. Westminster passed primary emergency legislation to over-ride existing laws to combat the Pandemic. It was then devolved to Scotland, Wales and NI. Its why we wasted 3 weeks at the start waiting for that useless bin bag full of custard to get of his erchie resulting in a huge number of avoudable deaths.

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Originally Posted by Jamesie

That’s an interesting point that I was just having a look at, purely out of interest. The Season Ticket Terms and Conditions (https://d3tepru76oevpi.cloudfront.ne...s-Home-STs.pdf) include the following:

14. The Club reserves the right to refuse admission or eject from the stadium and/or withdraw the season ticket from any person at any time, should the person contravene any Ground Regulations.


Now the Ground Regulations may include something along the lines of supporters agreeing to comply with all relevant laws and regulations governing entry to the ground - which would likely (bearing in mind the relevant law has probably not been drafted yet and will only be debated in Holyrood next week) be broad enough to cover the club refusing entry. The trouble is that I can’t find a document titled “Ground Regulations” on the Hibs website. Does it exist online? I can see a couple of images (albeit of only half of the regulations or thereabouts) taken outside the ground, but not the full document.

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I would have hoped that as the goalposts have now changed then they would be understanding of cases such as mine, if these were going to be required at the start of the season then I wouldnt have bought one.

I'm also not sure how enforceable these will be as when masks were mandatory you still couldn't ask for proof of exemption.

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Originally Posted by Casey1875

I would have hoped that as the goalposts have now changed then they would be understanding of cases such as mine, if these were going to be required at the start of the season then I wouldnt have bought one.

I'm also not sure how enforceable these will be as when masks were mandatory you still couldn't ask for proof of exemption.

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If you have a medical reason for not being vaccinated am sure you will be fine.

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Originally Posted by flash

If you have a medical reason for not being vaccinated am sure you will be fine.

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already confirmed earlier on that this will be the case.

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Originally Posted by Mick O'Rourke

I have no time whatsoever for anti-vaxxers. unless its medical advice/condition that is reason for not getting vaccinated.

If Joe Bloggs sat next to you has not been jabbed, you ARE in danger of getting infected,as is he of course.

I told here about my pal Davie who passed away last month with the Covid and he had both his jabs(2nd one last May)
Family think his train journey and weekend in London invited the virus
Such a crowded train(few masks) and London during Scotland v England game

I wont go near big gatherings till most if not all have had both jabs

But thats me, being elderly and with underlying medicai conditions.

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Sorry to hear about your friend But the whole support could be doubled jabbed and you still get it at the game Hopefully you wouldn’t get seriously ill or end up in hospital but I do know a few people doubled jabbed who have ended up in intensive care and got out with an oxygen tank


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Originally Posted by andudare2

already confirmed earlier on that this will be the case.

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Is it a joined up system where they will know that you have appropriate medical grounds. Is there even a recognised list of conditions where you are deemed exempt. Even then I'm not sure asking someone to prove they have an appropriate illness to be exempt is a job for a steward at a fitba ground.

Doncaster may well actually be useful for once in standing up to the government on this. The question he asked regarding outdoor events not being a major spreader of diseases has to be answered and answered robustly with proof. Why did we fully open up grounds if it was dangerous in the first place.

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Originally Posted by andudare2

already confirmed earlier on that this will be the case.

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Which makes a complete mockery of the whole system, I don't have a medical reason as such for not having it and as I said if that excludes me from society then I will deal with that. Effectively forcing people to have any sort of medication doesn't sit well however. People should be permitted to make their own choice.

If we are only excluding 15% of the population from society who are also those who trust Facebook posts by Karen for their news source/self-certified virologists, that’s fine by me 👍 medical exemptions are a different kettle of fish which of course should be respected.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brummie_Hibs

Okay, they are effective at reducing illness. But that is about it - they are not making you immune, and you can still get very ill and die, and you are now needing regular boosters.

So they are effective at reducing hospital backlogs - which is good. However, there is no pressure on the NHS these days - it is under control. So I don't see the point in these passports.

---

Lots of health board are currently not doing routine procedures The Lanarkshire hospital joined a growing list of hospital in the last few weeks
I am currently waiting to go in for a procedure Will be lucky if I get it by next summer at this rate


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A different point but it’s emerged in the past few weeks that lots of football Professionals are not double jabbed so are they not allowed into the stadium [emoji848]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wookie70

Is it a joined up system where they will know that you have appropriate medical grounds. Is there even a recognised list of conditions where you are deemed exempt. Even then I'm not sure asking someone to prove they have an appropriate illness to be exempt is a job for a steward at a fitba ground.

Doncaster may well actually be useful for once in standing up to the government on this. The question he asked regarding outdoor events not being a major spreader of diseases has to be answered and answered robustly with proof. Why did we fully open up grounds if it was dangerous in the first place.

---

confirmation is in regards to under 18,s and people who have genuine medical conditions which i would imagine would have to be verified by a GP and not a lanyard anyone can get from Amazon etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bingo70

Have to say, I’ve got some sympathy for people that just don’t want to get it, they don’t need to justify it in my mind, it’s none of my business.

Something I don’t get, and apologies if it’s a stupid question but hopefully someone can answer it for me, I’ve been double jabbed so I’m relatively safe from covid, or as safe as I can be, if joe bloggs sat next to me isn’t double jabbed that’s his concern not mine as he’s the one risking getting ill.

I’m sure that’s a bit simplistic but it’s something I’ve never really got.

Explanations appreciated 😂

---

You said it yourself - "relatively safe" - but not completely safe. The vaccines are all well short of 100% effectiveness and their effect has been shown to be diminishing over time. So I think it should be your concern as well. As you'll know, most cases are not as bad as they were but people are still dying from it and some (like my 26 year old granddaughter) are suffering from long covid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Casey1875

Which makes a complete mockery of the whole system, I don't have a medical reason as such for not having it and as I said if that excludes me from society then I will deal with that. Effectively forcing people to have any sort of medication doesn't sit well however. People should be permitted to make their own choice.

---

You do have a choice, you've decided not to take the vaccine and as such to protect others you're not allowed to go to the football.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Spaceman

If we are only excluding 15% of the population from society who are also those who trust Facebook posts by Karen for their news source/self-certified virologists, that’s fine by me 👍 medical exemptions are a different kettle of fish which of course should be respected.

---

Your disregard for 15% of the population says more about you than them I think. Granted some people will be basing their decision on misinformation but not all.

I guess it is fine until its something that you don't agree with though?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Northernhibee

You do have a choice, you've decided not to take the vaccine and as such to protect others you're not allowed to go to the football.

---

Which I have already said is fine, I think it is a bit nonsensical but I'll live with it. I'll not be happy if I don't get my money back however.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Spaceman

If we are only excluding 15% of the population from society who are also those who trust Facebook posts by Karen for their news source/self-certified virologists, that’s fine by me 👍 medical exemptions are a different kettle of fish which of course should be respected.

---

That way of thinking goes along with those that say people who smoke, drink, take drugs, are obese etc shouldn't be treated by the NHS. It sounds nothing like a free society to me. You could argue someone who believed some of the nonsense of facebook had a learning difficulty, should we not allow those that struggle cognitively to attend the fitba. Flippant I know but we are getting to the stage where far more people have had the jag than the government ever thought would take it yet that is still not enough and coercion will be used to "encourage" more to take it.

I can imagine an employer asking for proof of vaccination or antibodies for chicken pox from the heavily pregnant lady when there is a case in the office. It wouldn't happen but appropriate information would be divulged and the individual would make their choices aware of the risks. If large 10k plus venues were deemed safe a matter of weeks ago what has changed. The government made a choice, did they get it wrong and have they got the facts to back up this proposed change. If big stadiums are a hotbed for transmission why the hell were they opened in the first place and why the line between 4 and 10k for seated, unseated. Did Jason Leitch pick numbers out the hat or is there evidence to back it up

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Casey1875

Which I have already said is fine, I think it is a bit nonsensical but I'll live with it. I'll not be happy if I don't get my money back however.

---

We've already established that it's your choice to not take the vaccine, so the club shouldn't lose out because of that IMO.

CAn get into Portugal and have a holiday, but cant get into Easter Road, this is becoming a joke

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Northernhibee

We've already established that it's your choice to not take the vaccine, so the club shouldn't lose out because of that IMO.

---

Ultimately they will if this comes into place as I won't be in a position to renew it, let's face it these passports won't disappear any time soon, if ever.

Do people seriously not understand %'s to the extent that a 60% chance of not getting covid (and passing it on) is better than an almost certain chance of getting covid and almost certainly pass it on?

I might be proper ignorant here, so sorry in advance. But I honestly just don't understand why anyone would actively choose to not to get the vaccine?

The only reasons I ever see are the antivax folk on twitter. So can't really take most of what they say seriously.

But genuinely interested to find out why folk have decided against getting it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wookie70

That way of thinking goes along with those that say people who smoke, drink, take drugs, are obese etc shouldn't be treated by the NHS. It sounds nothing like a free society to me. You could argue someone who believed some of the nonsense of facebook had a learning difficulty, should we not allow those that struggle cognitively to attend the fitba. Flippant I know but we are getting to the stage where far more people have had the jag than the government ever thought would take it yet that is still not enough and coercion will be used to "encourage" more to take it.

I can imagine an employer asking for proof of vaccination or antibodies for chicken pox from the heavily pregnant lady when there is a case in the office. It wouldn't happen but appropriate information would be divulged and the individual would make their choices aware of the risks. If large 10k plus venues were deemed safe a matter of weeks ago what has changed. The government made a choice, did they get it wrong and have they got the facts to back up this proposed change. If big stadiums are a hotbed for transmission why the hell were they opened in the first place and why the line between 4 and 10k for seated, unseated. Did Jason Leitch pick numbers out the hat or is there evidence to back it up

---

It's not really the same though, is it?

If you go to a football match and sit beside somebody who smokes, you're not going to catch lung cancer, sit beside somebody who drinks you won't develop cirrhosis of the liver, or someone who's obese, well first off nae luck but you won't develop it yourself from close contact.

Sit beside someone who has Covid however....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ronniekirk

Lots of health board are currently not doing routine procedures The Lanarkshire hospital joined a growing list of hospital in the last few weeks
I am currently waiting to go in for a procedure Will be lucky if I get it by next summer at this rate


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

One of the biggest challenges is the significant numbers of staff forced to isolate following a positive test result. Covid isn't draining the NHS of staff, in terms of the numbers of actual covid related hospital admissions, it's a bit more subtle than that.

The whole thing is an almighty mess. There are huge question marks around the efficacy of the tests used, both PCR and LFT, they are being used like a blunt instrument. There is increasing awareness of issues with various vaccines.

If people really want a true picture then they'll have to dig a bit deeper than the BBC news. Blind faith isn't the answer, there is too much at stake.

That isn't a dig at you Ronnie, you are feeling the backlash from what's happening, as are many . I've been waiting for an appointment for a concern for more than six months now. All I want is a ****ing scan. How am I waiting so long!!!.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnM1875

I might be proper ignorant here, so sorry in advance. But I honestly just don't understand why anyone would actively choose to not to get the vaccine?

The only reasons I ever see are the antivax folk on twitter. So can't really take most of what they say seriously.

But genuinely interested to find out why folk have decided against getting it?

---

I cant speak for anyone else but there are a few reasons I chose not to have it. Its not a vaccine for starters, you can still catch it and pass it on being a big one. I felt I would likely be OK if I did catch it, which proved to be the case. Now that I have had it, I don't see the point in getting the vaccine as I have my own immunity. These added to the fact that it is still experimental chose me not to get it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Just Alf

Do people seriously not understand %'s to the extent that a 60% chance of not getting covid (and passing it on) is better than an almost certain chance of getting covid and almost certainly pass it on?

---

Tried to make that point in my first post. Also tried to make that point with my Asthmatic mate who refuses to get vaccinated.

I’ve given up now as he’s not for turning.

J

The unvaccinated are c120 times more likely to die. Doesn't seem worth the risk to me just to prove a point about civil liberties or whatever other reason.

Loads of stories out there about anti vaxxers realising their mistake but it was too late.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b1896231.html

24 year old lucky to get a lung transplant and survived.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pedroorange1875

CAn get into Portugal and have a holiday, but cant get into Easter Road, this is becoming a joke

---

Very good. A bit light on the detail. What are your entry requirements for getting your holiday in Portugal then?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Just Alf

Do people seriously not understand %'s to the extent that a 60% chance of not getting covid (and passing it on) is better than an almost certain chance of getting covid and almost certainly pass it on?

---

Folk just turn a blind eye to facts that don’t back up their cause Alf. Rife on this thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 1875godsgift

It's not really the same though, is it?

If you go to a football match and sit beside somebody who smokes, you're not going to catch lung cancer, sit beside somebody who drinks you won't develop cirrhosis of the liver, or someone who's obese, well first off nae luck but you won't develop it yourself from close contact.

Sit beside someone who has Covid however....

---

You may go into a hospital triage situation and lose your spot to someone who is ill because of their own actions. You may also sit next to someone at ER with Flu at any time in the last hundred years and that kills you. My argument is about risk, choice and exclusion. You could of course sit next to someone who is double vaccinated who passes Covid on to you too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bristolhibby

Download the NHS app. Your record is there. It even works with Apple wallet now.

J

---

That's England only

https://changingtimes.media/2021/02/...4ZhqSfEHR_aSBY

The WHO’s VigiBase, VAERS, EudraVigilance, and other databases list hundreds of thousands of reported adverse reactions after Covid vaccination, including thousands of deaths.

As politicians, health authorities, and a mostly enthusiastic public express joy and relief at what they view as the beginning of the end of the pandemic, sceptics point to the growing number of adverse reactions after Covid vaccination, the risks of long-term adverse effects, and the lack of conclusive evidence that vaccination is preventing SARS-CoV-2 infection and virus spread.

The World Health Organisation’s pharmacovigilance database, VigiBase, lists more than 1.7 million reports of adverse reactions following Covid vaccination, including more than 9,500 deaths.

The global death toll from Covid-19 is now put at more than 4.2 million.

Differences in viewpoints about Covid vaccination, and particularly about the implementation of Covid vaccine certificates and the prospect of generalised mandatory vaccination, are causing relationship breakdowns, including traumatic splits in families.

Those who have chosen not to receive a Covid vaccination are shamed and the hesitant are pressured. Financial and other incentives to encourage people to get a Covid vaccination are becoming increasingly widespread.

Most mainstream journalists dismiss or condemn all vaccine hesitancy as wrong and, on social media, serious abuse is levelled at those who argue that they have the right to refuse Covid vaccination. Employers are increasingly making Covid vaccination a requirement for their staff.

There is particular disquiet about DNA and RNA vaccines, which have never previously been approved for human use.

There are concerns that there will, with spike protein vaccines against SARS-CoV-2, be pathogenic priming, also known as disease enhancement.

During studies of spike protein vaccines against SARS-CoV-1, the exposure of vaccinated animals to the virus led to increased morbidity and mortality.

There is also worry about mix-and-match experiments and potential problems when people are given one dose of one vaccine and a booster of a different one.


This isn't the lunatic fringe speaking. People need to start asking questions and mainstream media don't really offer much a platform for a dissenting view.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tamig

Folk just turn a blind eye to facts that don’t back up their cause Alf. Rife on this thread.

---

Yep. Desperately sad, any spurious point to try and find an angle to argue against vaccines when all of the evidence says the opposite. Don’t want to get a jag? Fine, don’t do it but no need to crow about in in the face of overwhelming evidence that your actions are likely to be harmful to others and to yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

https://changingtimes.media/2021/02/...4ZhqSfEHR_aSBY

The WHO’s VigiBase, VAERS, EudraVigilance, and other databases list hundreds of thousands of reported adverse reactions after Covid vaccination, including thousands of deaths.

As politicians, health authorities, and a mostly enthusiastic public express joy and relief at what they view as the beginning of the end of the pandemic, sceptics point to the growing number of adverse reactions after Covid vaccination, the risks of long-term adverse effects, and the lack of conclusive evidence that vaccination is preventing SARS-CoV-2 infection and virus spread.

The World Health Organisation’s pharmacovigilance database, VigiBase, lists more than 1.7 million reports of adverse reactions following Covid vaccination, including more than 9,500 deaths.

The global death toll from Covid-19 is now put at more than 4.2 million.

Differences in viewpoints about Covid vaccination, and particularly about the implementation of Covid vaccine certificates and the prospect of generalised mandatory vaccination, are causing relationship breakdowns, including traumatic splits in families.

Those who have chosen not to receive a Covid vaccination are shamed and the hesitant are pressured. Financial and other incentives to encourage people to get a Covid vaccination are becoming increasingly widespread.

Most mainstream journalists dismiss or condemn all vaccine hesitancy as wrong and, on social media, serious abuse is levelled at those who argue that they have the right to refuse Covid vaccination. Employers are increasingly making Covid vaccination a requirement for their staff.

There is particular disquiet about DNA and RNA vaccines, which have never previously been approved for human use.

There are concerns that there will, with spike protein vaccines against SARS-CoV-2, be pathogenic priming, also known as disease enhancement.

During studies of spike protein vaccines against SARS-CoV-1, the exposure of vaccinated animals to the virus led to increased morbidity and mortality.

There is also worry about mix-and-match experiments and potential problems when people are given one dose of one vaccine and a booster of a different one.


This isn't the lunatic fringe speaking. People need to start asking questions and mainstream media don't really offer much a platform for a dissenting view.

---

Over ten times as many vaccines administered as positive cases detected. Those are pretty impressive figures in support of the vaccine I’d suggest. I don’t think that was your intention though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

https://changingtimes.media/2021/02/...4ZhqSfEHR_aSBY

The WHO’s VigiBase, VAERS, EudraVigilance, and other databases list hundreds of thousands of reported adverse reactions after Covid vaccination, including thousands of deaths.

As politicians, health authorities, and a mostly enthusiastic public express joy and relief at what they view as the beginning of the end of the pandemic, sceptics point to the growing number of adverse reactions after Covid vaccination, the risks of long-term adverse effects, and the lack of conclusive evidence that vaccination is preventing SARS-CoV-2 infection and virus spread.

The World Health Organisation’s pharmacovigilance database, VigiBase, lists more than 1.7 million reports of adverse reactions following Covid vaccination, including more than 9,500 deaths.

The global death toll from Covid-19 is now put at more than 4.2 million.

Differences in viewpoints about Covid vaccination, and particularly about the implementation of Covid vaccine certificates and the prospect of generalised mandatory vaccination, are causing relationship breakdowns, including traumatic splits in families.

Those who have chosen not to receive a Covid vaccination are shamed and the hesitant are pressured. Financial and other incentives to encourage people to get a Covid vaccination are becoming increasingly widespread.

Most mainstream journalists dismiss or condemn all vaccine hesitancy as wrong and, on social media, serious abuse is levelled at those who argue that they have the right to refuse Covid vaccination. Employers are increasingly making Covid vaccination a requirement for their staff.

There is particular disquiet about DNA and RNA vaccines, which have never previously been approved for human use.

There are concerns that there will, with spike protein vaccines against SARS-CoV-2, be pathogenic priming, also known as disease enhancement.

During studies of spike protein vaccines against SARS-CoV-1, the exposure of vaccinated animals to the virus led to increased morbidity and mortality.

There is also worry about mix-and-match experiments and potential problems when people are given one dose of one vaccine and a booster of a different one.


This isn't the lunatic fringe speaking. People need to start asking questions and mainstream media don't really offer much a platform for a dissenting view.

---

Excellent post

What is it that medically except folk have, that means they can attend these events without being vaccinated, that normal people don't have?

Do they have superpowers, are they X-Men?, can't they catch or spread covid?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

https://changingtimes.media/2021/02/...4ZhqSfEHR_aSBY

The WHO’s VigiBase, VAERS, EudraVigilance, and other databases list hundreds of thousands of reported adverse reactions after Covid vaccination, including thousands of deaths.

As politicians, health authorities, and a mostly enthusiastic public express joy and relief at what they view as the beginning of the end of the pandemic, sceptics point to the growing number of adverse reactions after Covid vaccination, the risks of long-term adverse effects, and the lack of conclusive evidence that vaccination is preventing SARS-CoV-2 infection and virus spread.

The World Health Organisation’s pharmacovigilance database, VigiBase, lists more than 1.7 million reports of adverse reactions following Covid vaccination, including more than 9,500 deaths.

The global death toll from Covid-19 is now put at more than 4.2 million.

Differences in viewpoints about Covid vaccination, and particularly about the implementation of Covid vaccine certificates and the prospect of generalised mandatory vaccination, are causing relationship breakdowns, including traumatic splits in families.

Those who have chosen not to receive a Covid vaccination are shamed and the hesitant are pressured. Financial and other incentives to encourage people to get a Covid vaccination are becoming increasingly widespread.

Most mainstream journalists dismiss or condemn all vaccine hesitancy as wrong and, on social media, serious abuse is levelled at those who argue that they have the right to refuse Covid vaccination. Employers are increasingly making Covid vaccination a requirement for their staff.

There is particular disquiet about DNA and RNA vaccines, which have never previously been approved for human use.

There are concerns that there will, with spike protein vaccines against SARS-CoV-2, be pathogenic priming, also known as disease enhancement.

During studies of spike protein vaccines against SARS-CoV-1, the exposure of vaccinated animals to the virus led to increased morbidity and mortality.

There is also worry about mix-and-match experiments and potential problems when people are given one dose of one vaccine and a booster of a different one.


This isn't the lunatic fringe speaking. People need to start asking questions and mainstream media don't really offer much a platform for a dissenting view.

---

In the UK alone just short of 43 million people have received a double dose of vaccine. That number is over 2.1 Trillion globally. Your figures for adverse reactions, which can be anything from very minor to life threatening, and even for those who have tragically died, offer a very strong argument that the benefits of vaccine hugely outweigh the disadvantages.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pedroorange1875

CAn get into Portugal and have a holiday, but cant get into Easter Road, this is becoming a joke

---

The Scottish government don’t make the rules for entry into Portugal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

One of the biggest challenges is the significant numbers of staff forced to isolate following a positive test result. Covid isn't draining the NHS of staff, in terms of the numbers of actual covid related hospital admissions, it's a bit more subtle than that.

The whole thing is an almighty mess. There are huge question marks around the efficacy of the tests used, both PCR and LFT, they are being used like a blunt instrument. There is increasing awareness of issues with various vaccines.

If people really want a true picture then they'll have to dig a bit deeper than the BBC news. Blind faith isn't the answer, there is too much at stake.

That isn't a dig at you Ronnie, you are feeling the backlash from what's happening, as are many . I've been waiting for an appointment for a concern for more than six months now. All I want is a ****ing scan. How am I waiting so long!!!.

---

Agree it’s a mess mate I actually got an M R I Scan fairly quickly and was confirmed I didn’t have cancer
But during lock down symptoms got worse again was seen by nurses at hospital and bloods taken
Got called by Consultant who said we will review you in six months Lost my rag explained my symptoms and he arranged for a wee camera to get put up and have a look inside the bladder
Again after chasing up his secretary she phoned me back with a date fairly quickly
He was then able to see my prostrate was growing into my bladder and I needed a T U R P procedure
I don’t mind sharing this level of detail as it’s important to get the message out there that phone consultations often inhibit some people as they try and close you down so they can phone next patient
Also it’s important to badger the Secretary as they can help get you a cancel appointment which is quicker than waiting
But if they then ain’t doing the operations there is nothing you Or I can do
about that
I have chase up meds as often repeat prescriptions don’t get ordered when you phone in
When you try and physically see a doctor you get fibbed off and it’s phone calls by different doctors no continuity
Patient Care has become secondary to new systems that imo are not for our benefit
Anyway rant over and hope you push and get your scan


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

This isn't the lunatic fringe speaking. People need to start asking questions and mainstream media don't really offer much a platform for a dissenting view.

---

I have an old friend who posts many links like the one you posted. They are all well researched and point to proper evidence. I have read them and also poured over the adverse reaction reports. It all came down to numbers to me. It was far more dangerous to not be vaccinated than it was to get the jab. I decided, at 52 with asthma, to take the vaccine however I will not be pressing my daughter to do the same at 16 year old.

Just like the vaccination I want a bit more proof of why the potential restrictions are being proposed. I certainly wouldn't take the Scottish Government's word on it and I voted for both parties. I also think it says much about how society has changed in the last decade or two in terms of our rights. Citizens seem totally fine with essentially an ID card, perhaps pointing to a medical condition, being needed to get into events and having much of their virtual and real life recorded by Government and big business.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wookie70

I have an old friend who posts many links like the one you posted. They are all well researched and point to proper evidence. I have read them and also poured over the adverse reaction reports. It all came down to numbers to me. It was far more dangerous to not be vaccinated than it was to get the jab. I decided, at 52 with asthma, to take the vaccine however I will not be pressing my daughter to do the same at 16 year old.

Just like the vaccination I want a bit more proof of why the potential restrictions are being proposed. I certainly wouldn't take the Scottish Government's word on it and I voted for both parties. I also think it says much about how society has changed in the last decade or two in terms of our rights. Citizens seem totally fine with essentially an ID card, perhaps pointing to a medical condition, being needed to get into events and having much of their virtual and real life recorded by Government and big business.

---

Got an iPhone? Use Facebook / Instagram / Google? What we are upto is being recorded already.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

https://changingtimes.media/2021/02/...4ZhqSfEHR_aSBY

The WHO’s VigiBase, VAERS, EudraVigilance, and other databases list hundreds of thousands of reported adverse reactions after Covid vaccination, including thousands of deaths.

As politicians, health authorities, and a mostly enthusiastic public express joy and relief at what they view as the beginning of the end of the pandemic, sceptics point to the growing number of adverse reactions after Covid vaccination, the risks of long-term adverse effects, and the lack of conclusive evidence that vaccination is preventing SARS-CoV-2 infection and virus spread.

The World Health Organisation’s pharmacovigilance database, VigiBase, lists more than 1.7 million reports of adverse reactions following Covid vaccination, including more than 9,500 deaths.

The global death toll from Covid-19 is now put at more than 4.2 million.

Differences in viewpoints about Covid vaccination, and particularly about the implementation of Covid vaccine certificates and the prospect of generalised mandatory vaccination, are causing relationship breakdowns, including traumatic splits in families.

Those who have chosen not to receive a Covid vaccination are shamed and the hesitant are pressured. Financial and other incentives to encourage people to get a Covid vaccination are becoming increasingly widespread.

Most mainstream journalists dismiss or condemn all vaccine hesitancy as wrong and, on social media, serious abuse is levelled at those who argue that they have the right to refuse Covid vaccination. Employers are increasingly making Covid vaccination a requirement for their staff.

There is particular disquiet about DNA and RNA vaccines, which have never previously been approved for human use.

There are concerns that there will, with spike protein vaccines against SARS-CoV-2, be pathogenic priming, also known as disease enhancement.

During studies of spike protein vaccines against SARS-CoV-1, the exposure of vaccinated animals to the virus led to increased morbidity and mortality.

There is also worry about mix-and-match experiments and potential problems when people are given one dose of one vaccine and a booster of a different one.


This isn't the lunatic fringe speaking. People need to start asking questions and mainstream media don't really offer much a platform for a dissenting view.

---

Aren’t the disease enhancement claims already being debunked by scientists?

I don’t think I’d use the word “lunatic”, but I do think there is a fringe of society who look to go against “the man”. If the government had always advised against vaccine, that fringe would be claiming we should all get it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimBHibees

That's England only

---

I thought the poster was England based.

J

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MagicSwirlingShip

Got an iPhone? Use Facebook / Instagram / Google? What we are upto is being recorded already.

---

The use of these forums is entirely the choice of the user and not mandated so not even close to being comparable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoboHarry

The use of these forums is entirely the choice of the user and not mandated so not even close to being comparable.

---

People can choose to get the vaccine or not. It's not being forced on anyone. I don't think there's ever been a suggestion that it would be.

WHO figures show 10,1248 covid deaths so far today (Wednesday). Maybe it’s time for a reality check for the sceptics

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr Fezziwig

People can choose to get the vaccine or not. It's not being forced on anyone. I don't think there's ever been a suggestion that it would be.

---

look what starting to happen in the country/world. You are legally correct, but there are other ways to get there and the ramp up is starting

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pedroorange1875

look what starting to happen in the country/world. You are legally correct, but there are other ways to get there and the ramp up is starting

---

I'm just correct.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

https://changingtimes.media/2021/02/...4ZhqSfEHR_aSBY

The WHO’s VigiBase, VAERS, EudraVigilance, and other databases list hundreds of thousands of reported adverse reactions after Covid vaccination, including thousands of deaths.

As politicians, health authorities, and a mostly enthusiastic public express joy and relief at what they view as the beginning of the end of the pandemic, sceptics point to the growing number of adverse reactions after Covid vaccination, the risks of long-term adverse effects, and the lack of conclusive evidence that vaccination is preventing SARS-CoV-2 infection and virus spread.

The World Health Organisation’s pharmacovigilance database, VigiBase, lists more than 1.7 million reports of adverse reactions following Covid vaccination, including more than 9,500 deaths.

The global death toll from Covid-19 is now put at more than 4.2 million.

Differences in viewpoints about Covid vaccination, and particularly about the implementation of Covid vaccine certificates and the prospect of generalised mandatory vaccination, are causing relationship breakdowns, including traumatic splits in families.

Those who have chosen not to receive a Covid vaccination are shamed and the hesitant are pressured. Financial and other incentives to encourage people to get a Covid vaccination are becoming increasingly widespread.

Most mainstream journalists dismiss or condemn all vaccine hesitancy as wrong and, on social media, serious abuse is levelled at those who argue that they have the right to refuse Covid vaccination. Employers are increasingly making Covid vaccination a requirement for their staff.

There is particular disquiet about DNA and RNA vaccines, which have never previously been approved for human use.

There are concerns that there will, with spike protein vaccines against SARS-CoV-2, be pathogenic priming, also known as disease enhancement.

During studies of spike protein vaccines against SARS-CoV-1, the exposure of vaccinated animals to the virus led to increased morbidity and mortality.

There is also worry about mix-and-match experiments and potential problems when people are given one dose of one vaccine and a booster of a different one.


This isn't the lunatic fringe speaking. People need to start asking questions and mainstream media don't really offer much a platform for a dissenting view.

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Article below is by Missouri University's academic medical centre.

https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories...what-they-seem

Scary Reports of Deaths Following COVID-19 Vaccination Aren’t What They Seem

You might have seen the headlines on social media.
“COVID-19 Vaccine-Related Fatalities Exceed 6,000.”
“6,000% Increase in Reported Vaccine Deaths 1st Quarter 2021 Compared to 1st Quarter 2020.”
No matter your vaccination status or your feelings about getting the shot, those headlines likely give you pause. Can those numbers be right?

These and similar shocking claims are the latest examples of COVID-19 vaccine misinformation. And as with most misinformation, these statements get traction because they start with a kernel of truth — in this case raw data from a reputable source.

The data and source

The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) was established in 1990 as a national early warning system to detect potential safety problems with vaccines. It is managed by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).
The system allows anyone who has received a vaccine (not just a COVID-19 vaccine) to report “adverse events” (think side effects) that they experience following vaccination. Health care providers are required to submit reports of events that come to their attention even if the events clearly have no relationship to vaccination.

The system serves to alert federal health authorities to potential safety concerns, but it is not designed to determine if a vaccine caused a particular problem. All reports to the system are unverified.

Since December 2020, more than 350 million doses of COVID-19 vaccine have been administered in the U.S., and VAERS has received 6,968 reports of death (0.0019%), according to the CDC. (Numbers as of Aug. 26, 2021.)

However, that statistic offers no insight into the cause of death for those people. If a 90-year-old nursing home resident got the vaccine and then died days, weeks or even months later of another ailment, the resident’s death would be reported to VAERS.

The misinformation strategy

Opponents of vaccination use the VAERS numbers in statements that suggest cause-and-effect conclusions. This misinformation then influences some people not to be vaccinated.

In this case, the numbers are correct, but the presumed conclusions are not.

Stevan Whitt, MD, an infectious disease doctor and chief clinical officer at MU Health Care, gets questions about these claims regularly, and he wants people to have the right information.
“This intentional misrepresentation is a powerful tactic to sow confusion among large groups of people,” Whitt said.

To address the misinformation about VAERS, the CDC shares context around adverse events associated with the COVID-19 vaccines and emphasizes that reports of deaths (and other adverse events) do not necessarily mean the vaccines are to blame. “A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines,” the CDC notes.

Meanwhile, what we do know for sure is that more than 38 million U.S. residents have been infected and 600,000 have died from COVID-19, and the vaccine is one of the best tools to slow the spread of the virus and save lives.

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Originally Posted by Mr Fezziwig

I'm just correct.

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You aren't correct, you are just taking a while to see the obvious.....

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Originally Posted by Mr Fezziwig

People can choose to get the vaccine or not. It's not being forced on anyone. I don't think there's ever been a suggestion that it would be.

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There is coercion though. You may be excluded from events for not taking it. Someone carrying both a vaccination card and covid will be allowed in but someone with neither a card or the virus won't.

Has the government, for citizens within the UK, ever restricted liberty within our countries on the back of someone making a personal and imo private medical decision.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoboHarry

You aren't correct, you are just taking a while to see the obvious.....

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No. I am just correct.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wookie70

There is coercion though. You may be excluded from events for not taking it. Someone carrying both a vaccination card and covid will be allowed in but someone with neither a card or the virus won't.

Has the government, for citizens within the UK, ever restricted liberty within our countries on the back of someone making a personal and imo private medical decision.

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People can choose to go to events or not to go to events. It's their choice. We have that freedom to choose. There are all sorts of restrictions on attending events to improve health and safety conditions for those who attend. It's nothing new.