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Their not gonna come last but....their all not gonna win it. Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs will become no marks and will never win it. The English clubs need to be careful because giving Real and Barca extra millions each and trying to compete with then in a league system might not be that great an idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by mayo hibee
As for inviting teams to play each year, plenty clubs around. Valencia, Seville, Roma, Napoli, Lazio, Porto, Benfica, Ajax, Everton to name but a few.
$Quote:
Originally Posted by DH1875
I'm not sure how this effects us as we are never gonna be part of it. Do wonder how fans of clubs like Valencia, Sevilla, Roma, Lazio, Everton, Newcastle, Leeds etc....look at it as it's the end of the dream for them.
They aren't quite the same but, as you rightly say, they are both purely to make people money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatecrasher
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Originally Posted by DH1875
Absolutely it affects us. The aim seems to be a closed shop where the elite grab an ever bigger slice of the pie and there is no way in for the likes of us.
Any new set up will be pushed down our throats as fans are converted into consumers - and that will include heavy marketing in Edinburgh.
Where will the next generation of Hibs fans come from? It’s bad enough seeing folk walking about town in OF replica tops as it is... this would be on another level.
Early indications are that the supporters down south are dead against this though.Quote:
Originally Posted by jacomo
Marketed properly Scottish football could be presented as a real alternative to the nonsense on offer at the top table. Try and tap into the huge market that has no interest in what is being put on offer. I think this creates an opportunity for Scottish football, unfortunately I don’t have any faith in the people leading our game to see it that way.
Hypothetically speaking, if it was Hibs that was involved in all this I think I would probably start taking a much bigger interest in amateur and junior football. Same principles apply here I think.
I’m not so sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by jacomo
Kids still support Hibs in Edinburgh now. That’s with English football and Champions league football being advertised all the time.
The elite will get an even bigger slice of the pie, but it’s not a pie we ever get to taste anyway. We’ve never been at that party.
It’s all greed, but I honestly don’t thin it’ll change much for me. I’ll still watch Hibs like I always have. I’ll still watch other football on the telly.
I haven’t read as much about the Atlantic league proposals. I’m hesitant to say whether it’s ‘ok’ or not. The Super League would operate at a whole other level and changes the whole football environment, for all competitions. As well as Hibs I also follow ligue 1 a lot and international football, I remember my first World Cup before I’d even seen Hibs play, neither of these things would survive the super league proposals. I doubt the Atlantic league would have that impact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatecrasher
It it goes through, when is it due to start?
When the next financial crisis hits, watching this bank-owned ****show crumble will be utterly hilarious
2023.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Whizz
I will be unsubscribing from any sports channel that shows it.
The idea of the Atlantic League was to group teams from weaker leagues into a single league to try to close the gap a bit on the major European leagues and level the playing field at least a little bit. This super league thing is just the richest of the rich trying to make themselves even richer.
Regardless of personal views on the Atlantic League I'm surprised anyone is even trying to make the comparison to be honest.
augustQuote:
Originally Posted by Billy Whizz
The Atlantic league idea is an attempt by big clubs in small countries to bridge the financial gap so they can compete with clubs from the big countries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatecrasher
The Super league is an attempt by big clubs in big countries to create a permanent gap to everyone else so they only have to compete with each other.
Oh really? When I read august in the statement I assumed it meant this yearQuote:
Originally Posted by Diclonius
This will kill domestic football in the counties involved. It’s already very difficult for clubs to compete with the richest clubs, this just makes the gap insurmountable.
This is a non starter, the money men and sponsors will pull out when they see the uproar this will cause around the football world.
Yeah I can't get too excited about hating this either. The game changed a long time ago at the top and this is just a continuation. The Champions League had become nothing like the European cup of old and was largely a closed shop with new proposals set to make that worse anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by easty
It's quite interesting looking at the social media platforms of the clubs involved. Fans from the locality are near universal in their condemnation of these plans. On the other hand the extended fan bases, particularly those in Africa and the far east, seem broadly supportive and excited by the plans. They have even managed to twist this to say it makes football 'more competitive'. I don't think that's entirely unexpected, fans rooted in a community will always be more passionate about their history and heritage than someone who supports a team thousands of miles from home with no obvious connection to either the club or the community the club is situated in.
I think the clubs and the financial backers of the league will have anticipated this as well. The extended global support bases are largely driven by glory hunting. There's a reason why Real Madrid sell hundreds of millions of pound worth of merchandise worldwide and Rayo Vallecano don't. They will already have a good idea of what TV deals are going to be on offer from around the world and will have budgeted accordingly. I daresay Sky and BT will drop their moral objections and get involved in the bidding for the UK rights as and when it becomes an issue. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if this is the start of PPV football where certain games incur an additional charge over and above a subscription payment.
The objections of local fans will be challenged as of now. There will be a deluge of propoganda, emotional blackmail and hype to sell this as 'what you have always wanted and just didn't know it'. It's easy for me to sit here now and say if Hibs got involved in some kind of closed shop I would walk away and support Edinburgh City or Spartans. After a few weeks of emotive marketing talking about the Leith sunshine spreading across Europe and the world? I might feel a bit differently. I hope the fans down south and across Europe stick to their guns. Unfortunately I just don't believe the football without fans is nothing line holds true anymore at that level. With the figures being talked about the stadiums could lie empty every week with a piped in atmosphere and it wouldn't make a significant difference. They wouldn't lie empty anyway, if everyone in Liverpool boycotted then Anfield would still be packed with tourists and people there for the 'experience'. The sanitised nature of it might even appeal to people traditionally resistant to the tribal nature of football. If the league has global appeal then the people of Salford, Openshaw or Finsbury Park don't matter in the slightest. They are expendable.
i really hope you’re right but I’m doubtfulQuote:
Originally Posted by hibee-boys
I wonder how thought through the super league proposaIs are? The clubs involved intend to have a closed shop of course but could their own domestic leagues become part of the closed shop? The big 5 leagues make up a 20 club super league, but then they have 5 feeder leagues: EPL, Series A, La liga, Lihue 1, Bundesliga. They close the relegation trapdoor of their domestic leagues permanently and perhaps reduce the domestic league size to 16. I suspect that would change a lot of folks minds in these 5 Countries. It would scoop up most of the finance. This is why folks have discussed something like an Atlantic League because countries like ours, scandics, Netherlands, Belgium, Portugal, Central and Easterm Europe would have to reorganise
Glorified exhibition games every year, shame on all the clubs involved. It’ll never come to fruition but if it does I hope games authorities have the balls to follow through on the threat around removing them from national leagues etc and would watch how the fans/players/sponsors leave in their droves.
At the very least, I hope it makes some people in England sit up and take notice.Quote:
Originally Posted by matty_f
Many of them have sat back and laughed at our "tinpot" league while clubs in backwater towns down there hoover up vast sums of TV money to artificially make their league look "the greatest in the world".
Its absolutely no different to when the EPL broke away all those years ago - its all about the ££££££
I don’t really think the “Atlantic League” is in any way comparable to the new Euro Super League.Quote:
Originally Posted by chippy
The reason the ESL is an option is because it’ll involve the worlds best players so demand to see it will always be there, regardless of anyone’s disgust about greed.
The Atlantic League would be made up of teams and players that the majority of folk just couldn’t care less about.
Don’t forget the EPL was set up in 1992 as a breakaway from English football league to gain more money and better TV deals...
The irony of fans in England complaining about this is pretty funny to see.
Agree with post earlier it won’t affect Hibs much at all - Old Firm probably more concerned as the gap grows further and they won’t get anywhere in Europe.
Also remember the English teams are still competing for the EPL - I think fans think they are leaving the EPL to play Europe super league only - just a more lucrative Champions League which guarantees the richer clubs always have guaranteed income - rather than stressing if they make the top 4 !
They need to be kicked out for this very reasonQuote:
Originally Posted by GreenCastle
Even if the leagues threatened to kick out the new euro super league clubs, those clubs will know they’d never go through with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentDaleCooper
The English Premiership is all about money, they’re not going to throw out all the clubs that the sponsors are interested in.
I think the mistake people make is to assume that your average season ticket holder at these clubs matters in the slightest. The average Joe 55 year old taxi driver from Manchester that has been a City season ticket holder for 30 years mattered when they were in the third division, but once Abu Dhabi bought the club he became irrelevant. They could afford to just fly in social media influencers from around the world to fill any empty seats and post propaganda about how amazing the atmosphere and football is if they wanted to.
What will decide this is whether they get buy in from TV subscribers and, following on from that, advertisers. Nothing else matters really. I suspect this is probably a leap too far too soon and they'll end up doing a deal with UEFA that guarantees certain clubs annual access to The Champions League based on club rankings or similar with just one or two places left open from teams outside the big 5 leagues. This proposal is what we're looking at eventually but we might be a few TV negotiation rounds away from it becoming a reality just yet.
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Originally Posted by mayo hibee
We would be doing to Scotland what these teams are doing to their own leagues. That's why I don't understand the leniency towards the Atlantic League mQuote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
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Originally Posted by matty_f
What's the difference with rangers and celtic leaving our league. A lot of people on here will tell you that's a great thing and that it would be great for us and Scottish football. Are fans of clubs like Villa, Leeds and Newcastle not excited about the chance to win the EPL and a level playing field.
English football will survive. You only need to look at the championship down there to see that. Where I would be concerned is if I was a fan of a mid table Spanish or Italian team.
It wouldn't happen but thevother clubs in England, Italy and Spain should have a zoom call and agree to refuse to play against any of the Dirty Dozen in any competition. Force the domestic associations to expel them.
The teams aren’t leaving their domestic leaguesQuote:
Originally Posted by DH1875
Are they not :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by easty
I don’t think so. Isn’t this just to replace the Champions League?Quote:
Originally Posted by DH1875
No, it is a midweek competition instead of the Champions League - which was by and large a pretty closed shop at the top end anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by DH1875
Their intention is that this will be a midweek competition and they will still be in their demestic leagues. They will no longer be part of the UEFA competitionsQuote:
Originally Posted by DH1875
Assuming this goes ahead as planned and the Champions League continued with the same qualifying criteria but with the Super League teams excluded, 10th place in the EPL could qualify for the Champions League.
Most clubs have left ECA and stood down from roles at uefa.
Spot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by mayo hibee
It's when Joe's £550 season ticket seat could be sold for £250 per game to wealthy Korean tourists on a Super League package holiday.
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Originally Posted by Andy74
Yeah, if you look at the semi-finalists every year, it's amazing how small a group of clubs that's been over the last 10-15 years
They’ll probably have to rethink that champions league theme tune.Quote:
Originally Posted by 007
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Originally Posted by easty
And the name of the competition would be even more stupid.
I'm clearly missing something here as I don't really get what the issue is?
Initially I assumed these clubs were leaving their domestic leagues in order to start a new league, something akin to a master league you'd set up on the PlayStation - but it's just a midweek competition similar to the champions league.
I don't really see how it changes much. :dunno:
The champions league has been edging closer and closer to being a closed off group of teams for ages now, this has just taken it an extra step on from where Uefa have been going themselves. The money driven and elitist priorities of uefa have seen to that by the way they structure these tournaments with qualifying, seeding, and coefficients along with the excessive prize money on offer. They've built the environment where the European competitions, even simply qualifying for them, are more important than domestic duties for these teams.
The same clubs have been reaching the later stages repeatedly, buoyed by the finances of getting there previously or by unsustainable financial backing that uefa turn a blind eye to. They're just upset someone else has came in and used the same tactics they've been using for years against them.
This just feels like another step change rather than a seismic shift in the way elite football cater for themselves.
Not that it makes it any nicer, I'm not defending the decision - just not sure it's anything other than a bit more of the same at the moment.
It's not nearly the same if the 'Founding clubs' are firstly given 350 million each and guarenteed entry every yearQuote:
Originally Posted by danhibees1875
They could all finish outwith top 4 and still be automatically given entry
Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk
The issue is because it's about the big teams shafting everyone else to line their own pockets. There will be a knock on effect that will impact all other clubs.Quote:
Originally Posted by danhibees1875
Indeed and the 50+1% genuine fan ownership will put a stop to this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba
(Genuine fan ownership not pretendy Hearts fan ownership).
J
I think the main argument against is that rightly or wrongly the Champions League is now seen as the pinnacle and where the clubs are all trying to get to. This proposal would now stop the likes of Leicester, Everton, whoever from ever getting there.Quote:
Originally Posted by danhibees1875
In practice it was already a pretty self perpetuating competition with the added protection for bigger clubs of getting a good crack at the Europa League if you failed.
I'm assuming the expectation is that UEFA would still run its own competition that you could qualify for but would obviously not be seen in the same light. Were Leicester or Everton ever going to reach the final stages anyway? Doubt it but I suppose it was technically open to them even if it was financially rigged against them.
Interstellar Galacticos League of Champion level dobbers..........Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith_M
:agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg
A competitive Scottish league where it's £20 maximum to enter a ground with the prestige and history kept intact. What's not to like?
Arsenal currently 9th in their league and scraping a draw against Fulham are now guaranteed an equivalent of a CL space with no qualification needed and given access to billions of pounds prizemoney, shafting clubs in their own league who are miles ahead of them at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by danhibees1875
Thats the problem with it in my opinion. I only use Arsenal as an example.
https://youtu.be/RPSoD5ruVhY
Surely this is a sign that Hibs are going to be invited?
There's a big tv market in USA, middle east, China, India etc. - that's what it's about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brummie_Hibs
By the way - our cup game is at 5pm on a Saturday on a subscription tv channel - while Hibs take the tv money, I bet Tom Hart and Eddie Turnbull wouldn't be happy about it. But we're too far down the line now - the Super League is just the logical follow on from football selling out to the tv companies 20 years ago. We've been warned for years that overseas owners won't look after the traditional fan base...................
Don't get me wrong, I think it's ridiculous. But it's just the direction of travel Uefa have been taking the game in IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Callum_62
Agreed. It's been that way for a while though. There's maybe been a few more token gestures by way of solidarity payments that could be lost now but the "elite" only looking out for themselves doesn't surprise me much.Quote:
Originally Posted by 007
Don't disagree with any of that. It's basically the champions league is now the Europa, the Europa is now the conference, and the conference is now a 4th tier of European competition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy74
I agree it's a fundamental issue that clubs can't qualify for what is now the "top tier" - but that was already so limited and difficult as it was that it wasn't ever meant to be the case that teams could merely qualify for the big stage without some serious endevour and fortune, and it was always getting harder and harder.
Uefa have already made it so the top 4 clubs from the top 4 leagues qualify directly into the champions league group stages - from there they are seeded to ensure favourable draws. The money from that makes it more than likely they'll also end up in the top 4 of their domestic league again and the cycle starts over, each loop of the cycle gets them richer and consolidates their position and makes it harder for any other team to break through into the tournament.
Uefa wanted this, they just didn't want someone else to do it.
AC Milan:
No league title since 2011.
Inter:
No league title since 2010.
Juventus:
4th in Serie A.
Atletico:
No league title since 2014.
Arsenal:
No league title since 2004.
Chelsea:
5th in the PL.
Man Utd:
No league title since 2013.
Spurs :tee hee:
I agree it's ridiculous. :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by BroxburnHibee
Jose morinho sacked at spuds....
Less than a week before a cup final. My guess is that he was against the Super League.Quote:
Originally Posted by JXM73
They are still obviously the biggest clubs, though. Inter and Atletico are on to win titles this year, Chelsea have won a bucket load of trophies over the last 15 years, Arsenal consistantly a top 3/4 club in England since they were formed, AC Milan a historical powerhouse, Man United obviously massive.Quote:
Originally Posted by BroxburnHibee
The issue isn't the clubs that have been picked, they are all obviously choices, its the idea itself. People seriously cant waste their time joking and memeing about the clubs and not protesting the idea itself. The clubs are only serving themselves, as all businesses do. It must be made clear there will be consequences, both from fans and football authorities for doing it.
Why do you think they want guaranteed income?Quote:
Originally Posted by BroxburnHibee
He probably would have been sacked ages ago if he didn’t get them to a cup final.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magpie
At least give him the final especially with his record of trophies.
Never should have sacked Pochettino.
I don't think that's entrirely fair on UEFA. The big clubs have pushed in this direction and threatened breakaway multiple times and each time UEFA have compromised and made the Champs League format more to their liking. I think that model of clubs threaten->UEFA concedes a bit more has finally reached breaking point.Quote:
Originally Posted by danhibees1875
The people on here basically saying "well it's crap, but inevitable"...this is what you get with capitalism. People don't matter, only their wallets matter. It doesn't matter where those wallets are, or who they belong to. It started with the EC becoming the CL, the EPL breaking away from the football league. Teams like ours will continue to be tied to their communities, but within a broken system, glass ceiling firmly and in place and immovable. This step is a mere formalisation, to make sure there's no more anomalies like leicester. The people speaking out about it like Neville...he makes good points based on a foundation of utter hypocrisy. Millionaires angry at billionaires.
Levy is previously known for having a replacement lined up to come straight in too. The fact they have placed the academy manager as caretaker, sacked Mourinho on the week of a cup final, disrupting the team with only a few games of the season left suggests that there was a fall out over the Super League. I think this might just be the beginning of a fall out amongst many of the squads involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenCastle
What derby game was that?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Brummie_Hibs
If you are a Hibs fan it makes next to no difference. Up until the end of the 1980s, we could just about imagine a path to being among the best in Europe. After all, Dundee United and Aberdeen had both just done it. That is long gone for us, but it's not if you are a club in one of the big leagues. If you are, say, a Norwich fan, there's really no reason why your team couldn't be the next Leicester and push up to a CL place. Or any Italian team could be the next Atalanta. Fans in these countries are waking up to what we've had for decades - the door being shut on the dream.Quote:
Originally Posted by danhibees1875
The are undermining it though. They are taking away euro qualification. It’s one of its big selling points to broadcasters. ‘The battle for the top 4’. Future TV deal will reflect the fact that it is less competitive and there is nothing to play for for most of the league.Quote:
Originally Posted by easty
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This is where I'm at with it. Some of the supporters down south have taken great delight in laughing at the downfall of Scottish football since we lost any credible TV deal. To see their respective 'bigger' teams looking to prioritise European football to the point where the domestic league could potentially become an afterthought is quite satisfying.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenCastle
You may be right, and maybe I am being harsh on Uefa when it's more "elite sport" generally it should be aimed at. Those concessions from Uefa benefit them as well though, they weren't altruistic in their actions to limit the later stages of the CL as much as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
Their domestic leagues released a joint statement with UEFA yesterday, saying any clubs involved in the Super League will be emptied from their respective leagues. Huge stakes in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by easty
I don’t think they are taking away European competition though - the ‘bigger’ teams just won’t be playing in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Ultimately the leagues, the European competitions etc are memberships. These clubs are pretty much entitled to go and start something with like minded teams who want to be members. They have to accept the implications on their ongoing membership of other things though and that is for those bodies to weight up if they could live without them and take some serious calls on that.
I think this is the equivalent of taking delight at a fire at your neighbours house, even though that fire is going to consume your house too, because you had a smaller fire at your house a while back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Callyballybe
ExactlyQuote:
Originally Posted by hibsbollah
I’m sure I read somewhere on thread, someone said this won’t affect Hibs
If this goes ahead, what would happen to the existing European competitions?
Surely they won’t run with all 3?
I think that's a significant exaggeration. If someone has laughed at the financial demise of my football team/league, and then their team goes onto experience something similar due to a drive for more money, I'm not going to deny a sense of schadenfreude. If their private property is up in flames, and something similar happened to me before. I'm certainly not deriving glee from their situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibsbollah
I also think it's simply wrong, as I don't think Hibs will be overly affected by this - Of which I could be wrong admittedly - But I'm not convinced we will be.
Real Betis have jumped themselves from 6th to 3rd on their website after deleting breakaway clubs from La Liga table.
Watching elite football eat itself is pretty hilarious tbh
😂 That's what we everyone should do. Refuse to recognise their existence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazzling Doidge
The difference is that these clubs aren’t looking to leave their domestic leagues. They’re going to get super rich (more super rich) and so will completely dominate their domestic leagues.Quote:
Originally Posted by DH1875
If Rangers and Celtic left Scottish football, the rest of us are on a pretty even playing field where the gap between the richest and poorest top Flight teams is big but not overwhelming.
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Originally Posted by Andy74
It’s not a continuation at all but a decisive, once and for all attempt by the biggest clubs to entrench their position forever.
The EPL, Champions League etc were all about a money grab for the largest clubs too, but at least left the door open for other clubs to get involved through promotion or sporting merit.
This is more akin to a closed shop. Don’t dismiss it as more of the same.
Yip. Cake and eat it springs to mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by matty_f
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Originally Posted by Billy Whizz
Of course it will affect Hibs. This new league will see Edinburgh as a consumer market just like other marketing ‘territories’.
If you want your kids or grand kids to grow up Real Madrid fans, bash on. If you want Hibs to still have a hope of drawing a significant local fanbase, we need to resist.
Hope the PL grow some balls and expel all six clubs from the top division. Same with La Liga and Serie A, though unlikely as especially in the former Madrid/Barca basically run the league.
Don’t see that at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by jacomo
Real Madrid are already pretty much ever present in the Champions League. I’m not sure why replacing that competition with a closed shop one would see them taking the place of local clubs in the minds of kids?
Let's be honest, that's never going to happen in a million years. The clubs hold the power and they know it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diclonius
Boris Johnson now saying the government will intervene to stop it. Utter nonsense.
I’m pretty sure FIFA take a dim view of State involvement in footballing matters. It would make me chuckle if Westminster inadvertently got England banned from the World Cup though.
He doesn't want to be in the European Union but wants to control UEFA now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lendo
Yeah but will they still run with 3 tournaments, which could hit HibsQuote:
Originally Posted by Andy74
Might be a good thing for Scotland, the sellik and huns might be invited to a new english league set up, since the TV contracts in england finish next year and they may well be invited to spice it up.
Is it just me or would a PL and UCL with the Big Six expelled actually be interesting for once? Anything could happen. I'd watch the **** out of that.
When/if the big 6 are expelled, the remaining 14 EPL teams will now be debating the merits of a 14 team league, should they split after 3 rounds of matches? Top 6 and bottom 8 or vice versa, meaningless matches etc.
I would go out of my way to watch a CL with all of the bigger clubs telt to GTFQuote:
Originally Posted by Diclonius
Just another step away from a level playing field. Most people I know have stopped watching the Champions League these days as there's no great variety in the competition. Elite football is already a long way down the road to a closed shop already, and like someone said earlier, it looks like it's slowly eating itself.
A Super League is a tremendous idea. I'm all in favour. Everyone cancels their BT contracts. The "super" teams, having spent money they won't get, go bust and tumble down through the leagues. A level playing field created for the real teams. What's not to like?
Haven't watched the CL in years and this utter bull**** is even less appealing. No doubt it will appeal to the African, Far Eastern and US "fans" but not for me. Sadly that seems to where the money can be made though. Sad day for the once working class sport
Let them go. Chuck them out the leagues. They’ve lost the reality of what a football fans wants and they’ll all go back cap in hand to their league in a few years time.
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Originally Posted by green day
With Barcas debt is this just a sham to extract money and keep a selected group of clubs alive?
I'm sure there was something in the UEFA statement yesterday about any club returning to its own domestic league after expulsion (assuming that actually happened) would have to start in the fifth tier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waxy
Hopefully we can get back to:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lendo
- European Cup - for league winners only
- Cup Winners Cup - for Cup winners only
- UEFA Cup
Greed is good
Lunch is for wimps!
:greengrin
Tory election manifesto?Quote:
Originally Posted by BILLYHIBS