Printable View
I think the posters point is that it would be as acceptable to Rangers/extreme Jambo minorities to have Lenny as Scotland boss as Gerry Adams. I'm happy enough that they have that view because I'd much prefer he stays at Hibs for a long time yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoomtownHibeys
...all is forgiven.
Taxi for McLeish
Two campaigns - Two failures.
One of which saw us finish 4th when 3 places were up for grabs, finishing behind a huddy filled Irish squad.
Don't think it is an age thing because there are plenty of successful older managers and coaches.
He just appears totally out of touch and incompetent.
Tactically he looks miles off the pace.
Needs replaced, and quick.
At least there's only one more non-event and then we can forget about this non-football team for another few months.
I’d liked to have seen John Collins given the managers job a few years back, and he might have been the one to adopt a more modern outlook to the national team and the general set up. I suspect his time has now gone.
It's quite sad that most people i know couldn't care less about the national team. It's a hinderance that gets in the way of and disrupts domestic football. I'm old enough to remember Euro 96 and France 98 and it was great. Gripped the whole nation. Now, like last night, if Scotland were on TV i'd probably not watch it. It used to be the pinnacle. I don't know what it is. Too many international games/breaks? Constant failure to qualify for anything? Players who are unknown to a lot of people unless they follow English football? who knows but something is seriously wrong. I'd love to get he passion for the national team back. I'm even starting to find folk getting dressed up in kilts and football tops a bit cringy. Never thought i'd say it but even Berti Vogts team was far better than this lot.
Probably, but I doubt Dalglish, Jordan, et al are going to come out of retirement.Quote:
Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES
Bad workmen blame their tools. Hibs play exciting football without players of that quality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
Btw I actually spoke about this before we appointed Mcleish, brown and fletcher or something of the likes has to be worth a shout..least they'll know the players strengths and weaknesses..and may listen to the players and find a bit common ground..Quote:
Originally Posted by One Day Soon
How dare you call the Hibs players tools!Quote:
Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES
Different levels though isn't it, if the Scotland team played as openly as the Scotland team of the 70's we'd get torn every game.
Quality is relative. Scotland have access to guys like Robertson, Griffith's, McGinn and Cairney. All players who walk into Hibs team. They play Vs better sides but they aren't even close to maximizing their potential.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
It's nothing to do with playing like the 70s. It's to do with getting the best out of the players available. Until that is done the players can hardly be blamed.
Sadly not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diclonius
There's a double header coming up next month.
I’m only 25 yet firmly of the view that Scotland having a football team is nothing more than a nuisance.
We’ve been utter garbage for my entire life and there is not one single person in power within the governing body that are remotely interested in trying to improve our national side. If they don’t give a toss, why should we?
Normally I feel a bit crap if Scotland lose but for the first time ever there wasn’t a single flicker of emotion when we lost last night. I’m sure a lot of 20 something Scottish people feel similar.
The biggest problem with Scottish football is it revolves around two clubs.
,Quote:
Originally Posted by Smartie
McLeish is a dinosaur ( IMO :wink: ) with a history of failure. His only successes were with us when we splashed the cash on Sauzee, Zitelli, Latapy etc & then Rangers where he & nearly every player was in receipt of an EBT. Here's a thing though, there's been a big stooshie about LG declining to play but off the top of my head I can think of, Cairney, Fraser, MacArthur, Ritchie, Phillips, Bannan, McTominay, Cooper, Snodgrass, either EPL or top championship teams who were not involved last night. Burke also declined to join the U 21s. If the rumours about McLeish singling out LG for criticism are true then that's shameful but we certainly won't improve while players aren't busting a gut to play for their country.
:bitchy:Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonHFC
Good try, but that's definitely wrong.
The second "either" is superfluous and makes the sentence clumsy.
Who else applied for the job?Quote:
Originally Posted by Onion
I don't blame the players bud. There just isn't a big enough pool of good ones and the ones that have a wee bit quality aren't always good enough either.Quote:
Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES
No matter how they are set-up or how optimistically we approach games the quality, both individually and as a pool to select from, doesn't exist. Not the players fault.
Look at Soutar last night, a supposed "decent prospect" who is expected to hoof both ball and player for his club but completely lacking the nous and nuance to play in last nights game.
I think for most people, myself included, it's just the opposite of glory hunting. Failure rejection.Quote:
Originally Posted by SallyCinnamon
We'll care again when/if we start winning and playing well.
I've kilted up for Scotland trips in the past, but I'm starting to feel the same. Folk travelling the world, pished, on "national service" following a group of players who are collectively incompetent.Quote:
Originally Posted by SallyCinnamon
It seems that some of the TA just love to be patronised. "Look how brilliant the Scotland fans are. They look amaaaaazing, and they go everywhere to follow their team". Then they go away shaking their heads and laughing at how pish we actually are on the field.
Last night the 39th ranked team in the world, us, were roundly taken apart by the team ranked 94th. National service my erse.
The point is we don't actually know if these players are good enough because they're being played all over, never consistently, with the wrong instructions, wrong formation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
A better manager could get more from them. You can't really tell me every team at the world cup or Euros had better players than Scotland? No chance. Albania? Northern Ireland? Hungary? All qualified in 2016. Scotland had hopeless management who couldn't get most from the players so they didn't. That's what it boils down to.
Everyone thought Hibs had rubbish players for years. We actually had rubbish managers and coaching staff. I remember outrage on here when Stubbs was signing coaches instead of players in his first season. Reality is that exactly how it should be. Players come and go. Proper coaching set ups last year's.
Sad to read all the negative comments about AM. He probably wouldn’t have been my first choice for the job but he did build arguably the second best Hibs team I’ve seen in over 50 years and was in charge for two of my favourite games, the Millennium derby and the 6-2 game. He also got us to the first Scottish Cup final in over 20 years and but for a very good Celtic team we could have won it. After years of derby misery under ALex Miller, his record against Hearts was very good.
I’ve met him a couple of times and found him to be very positive about Hibs.
We must surely have access to a bigger pool of decent players than IsraelQuote:
Originally Posted by Kato
I don't think that's the cause of our failings at national level.Quote:
Originally Posted by PatHead
It's certainly bad in Scotland, but other countries aren't exactly overflowing with their variety of league champions.
It was 1984/85 when a team other than Celtc or Rangers won the Scottish league. Since then Celtc have won it 16 times and Rangers 17 and Aberdeen once, obviously.
In the same time period, Barcelona and Real Madrid have won 30 of the available 34 league titles.
In Portugal Benfica or Porto have won it 32 times.
Even in Germany, Bayern Munich and Dortmund have won the league 26 times out of the last 34, with 2 clubs winning it once and 2 twice.
In England, 10 different clubs have won the title in that time with only Manchester United in double figures (13). No other team has won more than 5 times. (I wonder if the variety of winners one of the reasons people think it's the best league in the world.)
So, England have a greater diversity of success, but their national side still fails.
Other countries, with a similar duopoly to Scotland, have won the WC and the Euros.
We could argue about sacking Latapy before the final ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Hart RIP
His coaching worked nearly 20 years ago and is now thoroughly outdated. He has done nothing of note for years and is a failure. The sooner he moves on the better for our national teamQuote:
Originally Posted by Tom Hart RIP
give it to Gemmil
I dunno, mate. We've been through manager after manager over the last 30 years with little change.Quote:
Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES
I remember reading a stat a few years back which said in 1985 there c. 27,000 kids associated with school and boys club football. By 1995 that was down to c. 7,000. Smaller pool to select from means less quality.
I don't think there is any quick fix to bringing success to the Scotland team, change the manager, talk the game up, praise the players be optimistic - imho all that can be done (some of it has in patches) but the reslut is the same. We look rubbish because we are, having the Emperor Ming as manager with the pain of death for failure sin't going to help. If being optimistic and "believing" it can be done how come England didn't win the WC?
We took decades to become this inept and it'll take years to fix. The problem is producing players not bumming up the ones we have or having another manager.
Did he sack him? Or just off-load to Rangers knowing he'd catch up with him again. :cbQuote:
Originally Posted by Hibbyradge
I hear what you say however the whole structure of our game is organised around these 2 clubs. Everyone falls in line behind them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibbyradge
Until the SFA re-structure the game, instal an inspirational CEO with power and appoint a decent international manager, the game will struggle. A successful international team would inspire the game from top down.
Look at our club, we had a fantastic infrastructure but no team on the pitch. Look at the difference now with the flagship working properly.
Best to find an old unemployable ex Hun who is enjoying retirement and has no interest in the game and get a Daily Record campaign to have him installed as ‘the people’s choice.’ Get a testimony from a couple of ex OF players (each arsecheek represented) to testify to his ‘passion’ for ‘his country’. McCoist has to be next up. Let’s do exactly the same - it’ll be different this time, honest.
I really wish Scotland had no international team at all. It’s the most boring distraction ever.
One off game with Israel at home and showing far more appetite and cohesion than us?Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveli1875
"Smaller/inferior" teams beat "bigger/superior" teams all the time. Winning is habitual - as is losing.
Many different managers but all really just the same manager. McLeish, Smith, Stachen, Burley, Levein are all just the same person. Scottish, cheap, boring, unemployed, old fashioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
None of them were at all successful outside of Scotland. Scotland need a long term, exciting appointment. A young fresh face with ideas and ambition. A sexy appointment. And a proper coaching staff to support him and help him learn and move the whole thing forward.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES
Good luck with that, I hope it happens but I feel results will be the same.
I can just about remember Portugal being totally apathetic towards their national team, a long painful decline since the days of Eusebio. They just couldn't care less and attendances were pitiful.Quote:
Originally Posted by SallyCinnamon
Then came along Figo, some others and then obviously Ronaldo. Overtime results picked up the rankings improved and hosting Euro 2004 helped massively.
Now the whole nation is engaged with their national team and the perception from those outside of Portugal has totally changed.
There are many other examples of this, Spain had a similar situation and in a wider sporting context, just look at Australia.
They used to be total also rans in most sports, were viewed as sporting minnows, but slowly through the 1980s & 1990s they instigated an amazing program through their school system that altered the global perception of Aussies as beer swigging cavemen to being fit, healthy and a major force in world sport.
I think we need a revolution in education, probably not possible at the moment due to economic factors.
Ian Cathro :offski:Quote:
Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES
I think he would be good as a coach. Obviously he was dreadful as Hearts boss but he is very well respected as a coach. He is too socially inept and void of charisma to ever manage even a kids team.Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveli1875
Good post.Quote:
Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES
IMO the most appealing attribute Mcleish had prior to being appointed was the fact he was unemployed. At the time of his appointment we had just lost our CEO so i hoped, and still do hope, he was a stop gap appointment until we get some sort of longer term vision and plan in place.
Who that is i don't necessarily know but i don't think they need to be a successful club manager, it's a very different job to club management so there's different attributes needed. I think an ex-player who has recently retired would know how to get the best out of their players. Ryan Giggs has made a decent start at Wales and whilst i think his world cup campaign was overrated, at least Gareth Southgate seems to have a plan that the players are buying into.
If we go down the foreign route it wouldn't have to be a big name, in fact it's probably better if it wasn't someone who had a glittering playing career. There has to be someone out there though that's smart and looking for a bigger job than just getting into club management where he'll get 6 months to prove himself if he's lucky.
Wee bit imagination needed IMO.
Has GJP gave a interview since the game last night ?
Yes, i've not heard it (what's the point really?) but i saw on twitter he was getting slated as he said he was about to sub Souttar for Mckenna when he got sent off.Quote:
Originally Posted by silverhibee
Mckenna came on at half time though so he'd have struggled to make that sub!
I know people posting on twitter isn't always the most accurate so apologies to the GJP if that was incorrect or taken out of context!
Surely a 100 % fit Paul Hanlon is better than Soapy Soutar?
His sending off was just basic housekeeping at that level. You just don’t do it!
Or have I just got my green tinted glasses on?
PS
I would definately play a 100% Dazza before Soapy but I have to admit he is getting on
Agree with all of this. Even if Southgate is a tad overrated he was appointed in the right way. Young, ambitious, well spoken guy with a bit of personality. Had the u21s before, players knew him, bought into his ideas. McLeish is so lazy, such a boring lazy choice. No imagination as you say.Quote:
Originally Posted by bingo70
Scotland is the place where all these new coaches come to get their badges. Can't be that difficult to keep track of a few of the better ones, see if they'd be interested in being paired with a few experienced coaches behind the scenes ( Like Iceland did, had 2 managers, one young and one old to groom him to go solo) and taking over a long term project as manager. To be honest, anything except the usual boring lazy appointment would appeal to me and many others.
McGregor can't pass the ball, wouldn't work at international level. Can't play without Efe/Hanlon next to him.Quote:
Originally Posted by BILLYHIBS
Hanlon for sure should be in there, class player.
My recollections are that Latapy went AWOL towards the end of the season?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibbyradge
The national team will never improve while our club sides employ managers with the mind set of the 70’s. Scotland is full of them. Look at some of our supposed bigger clubs. Guys like McInness, Robinson, Levein all base their tactics around brute force. Everything is in the air. At least Houston is gone. That’s a start but the rest need to go or it will just go on and on.
night on the booze wi Dwight wasnt it?Quote:
Originally Posted by jgl07
Anyway, back to McLeish - i genuinely think he isn't all there anymore. I find myself always cringing when hes on telly
He should never have been allowed back after shafting the national team the last time he was the boss. Likewise, the fact that Uncle Walter was also in the frame, when he had done exactly the same thing, tells us a lot about what is important at Park Gardens.
Doesn't work like that. National league doesn't directly relate, plenty of average leagues with very good national sides.Quote:
Originally Posted by West lower
The national team should set the example.
This x 100.Quote:
Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES
He missed training cos of a sesh with Dwight Yorke.Quote:
Originally Posted by jgl07
McLeish sacked him because of it.
:agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Carheenlea
However I still think JC could, and would do a good job.
Of course it matters who is running the clubs. This is where the young players learn their trade. Being taught to win through high ball tactics is not going to help them at international level. We could have Alex Ferguson as national manager, but it wouldn’t matter if the players are being coached week in week out by imposters for coaches.Quote:
Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES
Those guys are not imposters. They just have a different outlook on the game and it has been somewhat successful for all of them. Would we complain if Scotland won a Euros like Greece did?Quote:
Originally Posted by West lower
I wouldn't mind Scotland being direct, 2 wingers, a big forward, dynamic midfielders. Its about having a proper plan, teaching them it and sticking to it.
It would be nice to play football but we aren't passing Spain or Germany off the park no matter how hard we try.
So - it's either eithers or either if either either is superfluous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibbyradge
Very interesting D but the stats are a bit misleading. There was a 13 year period when only Blackburn, funded by Jack Walker, interrupted the Arsenal/Man U duopoly. Before that there was a 12 year period when only Arsenal, Liverpool & Everton won the league. The Leicester success was unique but the recent successes of Man C & Chelsea were like Blackburn's based on being bankrolled by billionaires. The other major difference in England is that English players are a minority in all the top teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibbyradge
I'm not sure what point you're making.Quote:
Originally Posted by brog
I was considering a post by PatHead which said that the biggest problem with Scottish football is it revolves around Rantic.
I decided to go back as far as 84/85 because that was the last time a team other than the uglies won the league. It doesn't really matter what happened before then because about 3 generations of player have been and gone since then and the league has changed a couple of times too.
What happened before that can't be blamed for the current state of Scottish football which is what I started out looking at.
Spot on. Thankfully Lewis Stevenson and Paul Hanlon got the chance to show what great players they are once we got some decent Managers/coaches in. And look at how Martin Boyle, Barker and Scott Allan progressed/performed under our system. The Scottish international set up needs to get away from has been club managers and move with the times.Quote:
Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES
I only meant that the fact that 10 different teams have won the top league in the last 34 years is a bit misleading in that within those 34 years there have been lengthy periods where only 2 or 3 teams have won the league. In other words the top English League is nowhere near as competitive as they would have us believe. It wasn't a criticism, only a comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibbyradge
That was a bi-product of my research into the other leagues, but no matter what way you want to look at it, since 84/85 the English league has been more competitive than the 4 other leagues I highlighted, all of which have had lengthy periods of only 2 teams winning.Quote:
Originally Posted by brog
For further comparison, the French league has also had 10 winners in that time, 3 of which had "done a Leicester" and won it for the first and only time, but no-one really rates it for some reason.
The Dutch have enjoyed 5 different winners with Twenty winning their only title.
To be honest England aside the opposition doesn't really come into it when deciding to go to a Scotland game for me. Not really bothered about what players the opposition have I go to see Scotland. I get that people may feel differently but I just don't care enough about football out with Hibs and to a lesser extent Scotland.Quote:
Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES
I'm glad you're quick on the uptake, mate. That was exactly my point: there is zero chance Neil Lennon would ever be offered the Scotland job. He could win the treble for Hibs and still wouldn't be approached; the backlash would be horrendous.Quote:
Originally Posted by allezsauzee
It takes time to build an International team these days, wee Gordon was just getting there when he got papped. I doubt we'll get anywhere if we keep sacking the manager.Quote:
Originally Posted by PatHead
FWIW I wouldn't have brought back judas after ditching us the last time. By that I mean Scotland, not Hibs.
I don’t get this dewey eyed view of Strachan’s last days in charge. He was still picking his tried and tested English Championship failures at the expense of emerging talent. A new man with new ideas is whats needed. Not another one of the old school.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapper
I really think that it’ll be generations before the damage done to the Scottish intentional game can be fixed. By which point most other countries will have improved from there they are
It's all very well saying a new man with new ideas, we're living in the real world here, and it's Scotland we're talking about. We have no world class players to choose from and it's a thankless task managing Scotland if you ask me.Quote:
Originally Posted by tamig
You're always going to get fans unhappy with team selection and the paper hacks on your back etc. Do you have anyone in mind to implement these new ideas and pick emerging talent? How did Bertie work out?
It was my opinion Strachan was turning the corner, nothing dewey eyed about it.
Bertie wasn’t great but there are plenty other coaches out there. The biggest gripe I have with the SFA is this constant harking back to the past. McLeish was out of the game for a while before he got the call. They considered Uncle Watty before him. WTF was that anout? I wouldn’t mind if they looked overseas again. Just because it failed once doesn’t mean you’d fail again. The Scottish national scene is all very drab and insular imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapper
Why does it have to be a world class player? Or a household name? Why not something outside the box, something that takes a little imagination.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapper
Implement a proper long term plan. Experienced coach paired with new coach. Experienced coach who has achieved success at international level(Lars largerback was used by Iceland) paired with someone young and interesting with new ideas. Proper coaching staff behind them. Proper scouts watching players every week, building a squad. Young players being used. Interaction between the youth teams. All levels playing the same way.
To win at international level takes alot more than some washed up manager like Strachan or McLeish coming in, picking their favourites, failing by a few points, starting the next campaign poorly, sacked and repeat.
I don't know what the answer is, but i do know sacking the manager every couple of years isn't going to work.Quote:
Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES
The sad fact is no manager will get the proper time needed to do anything constructive and build a decent long term squad. It's the nature of the beast here in Scotland.
Can't argue with any of that :aok:Quote:
Originally Posted by tamig
Giving McLeish 5 years won't make any difference unless they have a proper plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapper
A manager will be giving time if it appears he has plans, shows progress, says the right things, works on a proper team and tactics. Makes the team entertaining.
Stubbs wasn't perfect at Hibs but he made good signings, had a proper coaching staff, played good football. He made people fall in love with the club again. Scotland need similar.
My suggestion is that we honour our planned fixtures and then withdraw the national team from all play for the next 5 years.
Then we can focus all resources on club football and child development.
What evidence was there that he was turning the corner? Granted the campaign when he took over was all but a write-off thanks to Levein's incompetence, but in his subsequent two campaigns we failed to even secure a play-off spot, despite Euro 2016 being expanded to make qualifying easier. Our 2018 World Cup qualifying campaign was over almost as soon as it began thanks to a disastrous start.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapper
I remember back in 2008 after we reached 10 years without qualifying for anything we got the Henry McLeish report which led. among other recommendations, to the introduction of a new performance strategy for youth football. Now that another decade has gone by with no sign of improvement perhaps it's time to consider that there's actually no hidden formula just waiting to be discovered and accept that we are what we are - a low-ranked minnow of the world game.
I personally wouldn't have given Mcleish the gig in the first place, as for Strachan? he was showing signs of improvement and getting us playing some attractive stuff again, all only my opinion of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES
As for Stubbsy? Legend is all I have to say about the man :wink:
No evidence, just my opinion. We were seconds away from beating a strong England side, I'm sure that would have seen us qualify for the play offs. No manager can legislate for individual player errors.Quote:
Originally Posted by G B Young
Quote:
Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES
Couldn't agree more. There are over 50 Scottish players who are currently regulars in the top 2 English leagues. Surely we could pick a team from them thats better than the garbage we watched on Thursday.
Just a throwaway aside, but I think Hibs at top form, with Lennon on the sidelines, would have comfortably put away Israel on Thursday night.
Change the National anthem and all will be well. Get rid of that pathetic, backward thinking dirge about fighting our closest neighbours and bring in something like Scotland the Brave. Billy Connolly was right, in fact appoint him as manager....sorted :agree::wink:
Devlin Christie and GMS called up for the Portugal game
Great more ***** from Aberdeen. Just **** off Scotland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny Brazil
I’d never heard of Michael Devlin until he was sent off against Killie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny Brazil
Is he a youngster that’s just broken through? What position is he?
Centre half.Quote:
Originally Posted by bingo70
Centre Half mate ex Hamilton.Quote:
Originally Posted by bingo70
25 year old centre half. He signed for Aberdeen in the summer from Hamilton. He hadn't played for over a year after he got a serious knee injury in May 2017, he missed the whole of last season.Quote:
Originally Posted by bingo70
Sounds like a good choice for a game against Portugal. Worth the £35 admission alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir David Gray
I’ll be at the big game tomorrow: Hibs v. Glasgow City semi final at Forthbank.
To be fair, it's not like the team second in the league (5 places above Aberdeen) and having conceded less goals them, have any Scottish centre backs or defenders available who are already comfortable in a back 5.
Have they got any eligible centre backs who aren't injured?Quote:
Originally Posted by Onceinawhile
Which Hibs centre halves would you suggest play tomorrow night?Quote:
Originally Posted by Onceinawhile
Paul Hanlon hasn't played for almost 3 weeks through injury, Darren McGregor hasn't played for 3 months through injury and Ryan Porteous is playing for the under 21s.
Holland 1 Germany 0
Rep of oirland 0 Denmark 0
Has Gary Mackay-Steven been called up? Yet big eck didn’t want Martin Boyle?
Biggest surprise (genuinely) about this thread is that people still care enough for it to run to seven pages. I suspect it's all due to the domestic break in football.
Sparky withdrew
Four players withdrew yesterday
One of them another high profile Celtic player that needed a rest?
Whats going on?
Something not ringing true!
:dunno:
They, or their clubs, don't want them to risk injury in a pointless friendly, particularly if they're already carrying a knock.Quote:
Originally Posted by BILLYHIBS
These games are exactly what the Nations League is supposed to reduce.
Don’t worry, it’s not 7 pages of people caring. It’s also largely down to hilariously witty posts like yours saying they don’t.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashing Bob S