What if the court rules that the event did take place last week? Do the spl have to vote again regarding relegation this season?Quote:
Originally Posted by littleplum
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What if the court rules that the event did take place last week? Do the spl have to vote again regarding relegation this season?Quote:
Originally Posted by littleplum
Maybe if we keep saying it over and over it'll happen?Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigHibee
:agree::agree::agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Thecat23
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skanko79
Elucidate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thecat23
They still can't be sold, UBIG assets are still frozen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thecat23
A new owner doesn't make ANY of the debt go away! It doesn't matter if its Romanov, Massone or Santa Claus thats running them, A lot of the debt is secured!
Have a look at the spl rules, they make reference of an intention of insolvency, I would say that ubig asking to be made insolvent is an intention?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tó Madeira
It would have to be water tight. We can't have another summer of wrangling like last year. I think the phrase 'on the evidence they have available'...
At the moment there's still a way to go. Anyway, the turkeys get a temporary reprieve but Christmas is just around the corner.
No chance they are still in the financial mire and this only delays the inevitable, in many ways it's going to make it more enjoyable and will keep us entertained throughout the summer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thecat23
Also think they are likely to lose Tynie very soon as well, it's not going to end up good for them in any shape or form.
:top marksQuote:
Originally Posted by steakbake
Just recieved the following text from my mole/source/birdie
"Arse covering, that's all, this isn't over yet though, awaiting events in Lithuania"
So they get to stay in the SPL. that is not a bad thing, you see they've sold 5k season tickets and are skint, I doubt they will make it to the new season, if they do and then go bust, it will more than likely lead to liquidation, which in my opinion is a better option than administration. The SPL and SFA will be shown up as the idiots they truly are the league will be a bit feked for a year while the bombsite that was hertz get sorted out, maybe we'll get some proper changes to the game, that it really needs.
Any one looking at the hertz situation can see it's a bomb waiting to go off, maist people would chuck said item oot the nearest windae, not the SPL, they hold onto it, just in case the fuse goes oot on its own. Brilliant :wink:
Fret not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thecat23
I promise you that they are ******. Like the steam rising of a newly deposited toley, today is but a moment of fleeting warmth before they are laid bare as being as worthless as a dead turd.
They are to all practical intents and purposes a twitching corpse
So if the Lithuanian courts declares UBIG insolvent/bankrupt can the SPL not relegate them retrospectively?
Whatever happened today didn't really matter although relegation would've been funny.
The whole process is already mapped out.
The Lith courts rubber stamp UBIG's insolvency.
SPL give Hearts a 14 point deduction before the season starts.
Hearts go into voluntary admin.
Secured assets are recalled by Lith government/administrator.
Hearts without a stadium and on negative points.
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bajillions
The SPL have to tread very carefully here. They are liable to legal action from HMFC, Dundee or even Morton if they get it wrong.
I preferred the thread title when it said SPL bottle it because that's the ****in' truth, shower of *****
Seen posts like that for the last few years, all turned out to be pish.Quote:
Originally Posted by vince1973
SPL washing their hands of this will only delay the inevitable points deduction for next season.
No huge list of buyers willing to buy the club is there?
The countdown continues.
Romanov is currently majority shareholder in Hearts, his assets have been frozen by Lith govt so no sale can take place at moment and it's unlikely his assets are going to be unfrozen any time soon. Ukio Bankas currently hold Tynie and the admins in Lith would probably see more value from selling the ground to a property developer than they would by selling it to someone who might come in and buy Hearts unless they are offering silly money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thecat23
The biggest question for me at them moment is, will they even survive to the start of next season? Even if they do they are likely to be sitting on -15 points at the start and will have lost most of their current 1st team squad as cost cutting and will probably be favourites to go down or at the very least be in the relegation play-off spot.
Jamie Borthwick has his eye on the ball
Jamie Borthwick @jamiekborthwick
Interesting bit of precedence from Feb last year. SPL confirmed no 'sporting sanctions' until court appointed administrators to Rangers.
Jamie Borthwick @jamiekborthwick
"A notice of the intention to appoint administrators alone does not trigger the sporting sanctions..."
Jamie Borthwick @jamiekborthwick
"...it is the actual appointment of administrators which does."
This is not over and anyone who thinks it is, is kidding themselves. Once something actually happens at UBIG the SPL will be right back on this
And its a number they seem very keen on too :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Ryan91
This is exactly what I thought (and posted) would happen last week.
The legal and business systems in each country are very different, so what happened in Lithuania has no exact equivelant here. The SPL have taken the easiest option, that they do not have enough evidence at this time that there was an equivelant to what would be considered under Scottish Law as an 'insolvency event'.
I think a lot of people on here that are so upset got what they wanted to happen mixed up too much with what the likely outcome would be. There's a lot still in the Hearts story yet, so no need to throw yourselves off the rooftops.
Been saying that since page 5 I think. I'll believe it now when I see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by YehButNo But
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skanko79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thecat23
Well don't read it then.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibeedonald
The rules say:Quote:
Originally Posted by HFCDaveA
It's a UK insolvency act, so they had to decide if the situation in Lithuania was equivalent. I am guessing that they are hanging the decision on the lack of court involvement at this point. UBIG's intention to bump their creditors was posted on a Lithuanian government website and, as far as we know, there haven't been any court proceedings yet.Quote:
the lodging of a Notice of Intention to Appoint an
Administrator or Notice of Appointment of an
Administrator at the Court in accordance with paragraph
29 of Schedule B1 to the Insolvency Act,
It's a bit of a technicality but I can see why the SPL have let them off for now.
They're still absolutely ****ed though. :aok:
Disappointed at Today's ruling, however, this is the start of the merrick's demise.....UBIG will be declared insolvent sometime soon in Vlad land, and there is not a snowball's chance in hell, of the merrick's being able to repay £15million big ones, by the end of next year......
Going to be interesting watching events unfold in Lithuania, and the ramifications for the Merrick's, IMO this has only just started....
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigHibee
Chill man, it's just the start :wink:
I'd like to take back what I said earlier about Angelo Massone never being allowed near any other football club again.
He should be given the Tynecastle helm so he can run the *******s into the ground with no dubiety or uncertainty so the serial cheats are finally dealt with.
Agreed mate, people are forgetting that this particular chapter only opened on Thursday. Not getting a points deduction for "last" season doesn't change ANYTHING that happened before Thursday.Quote:
Originally Posted by keekaboo
Christ, the way some posters are pooing the bed you'd think they had been declared debt free and had just signed Messi who agreed to play for free.
Hearts are still on death row, they just haven't gotten to the chair yet.
It was never going to happen today
The only precedent set during the the rangers saga was the amount of time it took to get the decision made
Anyone who convinced themselves they were getting relegated tonight was far too optimistic
I don't doubt for a second there is more to come though, and its going to get a lot worse before it gets better from them
Can I be the first to say (and not mean it) that I'll not be back.
Relegation this season would probably have been a good thing for them as well. As it stands they are facing playing the 13/14 season with a threadbare team and ongoing cash flow problems plus a 15 point penalty when the insolvency of UBIG is confirmed and the very real possibility of losing thier stadium when ukios administrators come calling. If they manage to survive all of that then relegation next season means they are coming up against rangers the year after so no guarantee of going straight back up. It's going to be fun to watch
For the bed wetters who want this thread closed down today's decision means hee haw. Bottom line is they are still rooked and staring into the abyss. The big pain is coming and I will laugh my genitals off when it happens.
Some of the posts about closing the thread. Deary me. Did I miss the SPL ratifying a £25m cash injection for the yams ? Admin and oblivion are coming ! Its just been postponed. It'll be a farewell tour next season and one that may get called off halfway through due to poor ticket sales. :timebomb:
I'm guessing someone can make an offer for the stadium and small amount on the debt. If accepted I assume that they could start next season with a clean slate and on zero points.
Can the Admins and soon to be ubig accept a tiny offer for the debt to save the hassle of putting hearts in admin, and then go through months of legal proceedings?
No points deduction, but it never would have made news if they werent such a shoddily run little club. With their crumbling stadium, unpaid players and shady Russian sugardaddy they are absolutely not going to get any stronger. I'm almost certain there will be sad, fat, ugly jambos on kickback saying how the club is destined to come through this and re-establish themselves on the top of the footballing Olympus where they belong. TBH what would you say if this was happening at Hibs? Them not going down does mean there will be some games next season to look forward too, i have no passionate hate for Celtic (until next sunday) so i'm glad we'll have derbies to attend. Given the manner in which we absolutely pumped them on their own patch the other week i'd say derbies are going to be a lot more entertaining too. Hearts in the first division would have been hilarious don't get me wrong, but Hearts treading water in the SPL and getting roundly shafted by Hibs on a regular basis... thats just dandy
:flag:
Random point:
If Hearts had finished 18+ points ahead of Dundee, everyone here would be delighted with this ruling.
Boyd and Goodwillie back on then.
Aw well just need to wait a little longer until they dot the I's and cross the T's
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bajillions
He's actually not got his eye on the ball.
The SPL rules as per December 2011 are as he says. The line about "notice of intention to appoint" was added to the rules as per July 2012. So he's out of date. :na na:
I'm presuming the fact the intention was lodged with a govt dept rather than a court is what's got them off.
As you say, just a stay of excution. :wink:
This story is faaaaar from over people.
We've waited all these years to get to this stage, just a few more weeks or months and Karma will work it's magic... And anyway we can now turn our attention to Sunday ! :agree:
Can anyone say they are really surprised at this? Said it last week that nothing would happen.
The pain is in the post for them, though. This just prolongs it.
Todays decision is only delaying the end. Also the SPL have now given themselves another summer of misery, because when the courts in Lith land do accept they are insolvent, they will then have a team in THEIR top division relegated before the season starts. They couldn't run a raffle with only 2 tickets to sell.
A very good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Part/Time Supporter
Are they certain to even get a points deduction next season?
Or will that be another decision "bottled"?
It would have been nice, but wasn't expecting anything today. Some of the reactions have been ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by matty_f
Random point #2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Part/Time Supporter
All hail Stewart Gilmour: an 8-8-8 with points for the middle 8 wiped would've come in most handy for a team of diddies starting on -15.
they will now surely be favourites for relegation next season.
I would've loved hearts to go down this season as with all the losing stadium, players chat etc, wouldn't it have been good for them to be relegated 2 years in a row and bypass playing the huns in div 1 in 2 seasons time and instead be in Div 2 by then?!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey
i tried to read it one day, got about 14 posts in on the first page and was bored to tears. if i had the time which i dont i could trawl through the entire thing and come up with a few belting quotes from folks that claim to be in the "know"
being honest its one of the biggest weeks in our clubs history and all folk are banging on about is hearts. give it up and get behind your own team.
i couldnt give a toss what happens to them.
Relegation for the flumps next season only to be met by Newco Huns. Now that would be worth waiting for.
Maybe they're hoping the people in Lithuania will send the yams tae the wall first tae save them from having tae make a decision. ****in' mealymouthed bawbagsQuote:
Originally Posted by Hibercelona
My take on it, too. That is probably the legal advice that they have been given.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
Well I've just walked past slim castle and there are folk blasting their car horns in delight at this... Jokers I think they now believe that's it all is Rosie again.
There's plenty of other threads you can read, you've chosen to not read this one but are complaining about it's content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skanko79
Hearts didn't single handedly defeat the Nazi's for people like you to make decisions about what we do and don't talk about. :wink:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Part/Time Supporter
But if Hearts had finished 18+ points ahead of Dundee, the ruling might well have been different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie Reid
Indeed. we cant control what is going to happen, but that could actually be a barrel of laughs. Its like Alien vs Predator in reverse - whoever loses - We Win. :cbQuote:
Originally Posted by kdhibees1
Now how about that Cup then? :cup:
For those seething with outrage that they apparently haven't been punished, please arm yourself with the facts before bursting any more blood vessels.
Until a court appoints an administrator. The parent company UBIG are not as yet in administration.
Administration and likely liquidation WILL follow soon, it's now just a formality.
The liquidators will want something for the 79% of Hearts shares owned by UBIG.
Also the stadium is in serious danger, not to mention the tens of millions in debt owed to UBIG which the liquidators are hardly going to walk away from.
Today alters nothing. They're ****ed.
No wonder, I'd be doing the same, knowing how everyone was saying they were down but as usual they scrape by. One good thing though. The team they will have won't be great so we should be able to beat them more often.Quote:
Originally Posted by edinburghhibee
Ah, CWG, you're back. Refreshed and ready for a summertime frenzy of financial fun at the PBS, I presume? :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod
If they, or UBIG, go into administration or liquidation, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibercelona
Good. If this adds more fuel to their "everything is fabulous" fantasy world then thats good as far as i'm concerned. The more the muppets deluded themselves, the harder reality will hit them. Hearts WILL suffer. Yes, their SPL status has been saved by the skin of their teeth but justice will be served, they will not emerge from this unscathed.Quote:
Originally Posted by edinburghhibee
Enjoy it for now jambos :aok:
I'm well aware they're still donald ducked, I just want tae see them hammered with everything possible before they go pop.Quote:
Originally Posted by green glory
Is someone forcing you to read the thread and post on it ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skanko79
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens
It's becoming an annual event, this close-season stuff. Beats the crap on telly :greengrin
Simple thing is not to read it if you don't want toQuote:
Originally Posted by Thecat23
I want to read it
I know, but it would have been good fun adding immediate relegation to the list.Quote:
Originally Posted by green glory
This news is dissappointing, although they may end up still getting a 15 point deduction next season I really cannot see this making much of a difference. We all expect them to have a really poor team but reality is they are unlikely to pay wages that are less than the other clubs apart from Celtic, Aberdeen & us, ultimately they will be able to sign better players than the likes of Partick, St.Mirren, Kilmarnock etc and the 15 points will be recouped. Yes, the huge sums they are due could be an issue but I have no doubt they will squirm a way out of this.
How will they do that with no money?Quote:
Originally Posted by East Stander
And what are they going to do when the UBIG administrator knocks on their door?
Delaying the inevitable. Not that I care, us Hibbies have got better things to think about this week :agree:
Correct decision by SPL.
However WHEN insolvency is confirmed then they will start next season -15 points.
They will then have a season of real frustration and almost certainly go down.
They will then have to get out of SFL1 at the same time as the Hun.
Death by a thousand cuts.
Another text "They were told this was the only option by the lawyers, they were told anything else would have been overturned quickly in court"
I should state, this person works at Hampden and is reasonably high up. Can't say who for obvious reasons. I'll also state that I rarely believe this "I've got a source" nonsense when it's posted but it's not something I can prove.
And you base this on....?Quote:
Originally Posted by East Stander
Wages are paid on (or not, as the case may be) on the basis of what your budget is. Even the brightest outlook for Hearts leaves them with a hugely reduced available wage bill.
Why are so many on this thread now turning incontinent?
Hearts are dead, they just don't know it yet.
Can I be first to say, why take it out on hibs ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Danderhall Hibs
This season Hearts only managed to finish 14 points clear of a Dundee team that finished 24 points behind the actual First Division champions, and only found out that they would be playing in the SPL ridiculously late on in the close season.Quote:
Originally Posted by East Stander
Partick Thistle are coming up as champions of a very competitive 2012-13 First Division (with only one point less than Ross County had last year), and Hearts are most likely to have a much weaker playing squad than this season. Starting with minus 15 points, if it happens, will leave them a mammoth task to stay up.
Todays outcome is only delaying the inevitable.they are still have ahuge financial problem which will come and bite them on the ass
his second tweet is not correct. Apparently a notice to appoint administrators is enough according to the rules.]Quote:
Originally Posted by Bajillions
the lodging of a Notice of Intention to Appoint an
Administrator or Notice of Appointment of an
Administrator at the Court in accordance with paragraph
29 of Schedule B1 to the Insolvency Act,
What a farce. UBIG ask to be placed on the insolvency list but the SPL say they aren't. Seriously jst die already!
Tell us what they had with their cuppas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bajillions
Fair enough (both points).Quote:
Originally Posted by Bajillions
I'm concerned that they may not have considered the "is UBIG actually a group undertaking of HMFC?" issue yet. As the legal advice may have just focused on the issue of whether UBIG's declaration amounted to an insolvency event, and not got past that point when they decided it didn't.
You're misunderstanding that rule. In Scotland, the only way to express a notice of intention to appoint an administrator is to make a court filing. UBIG haven't done that - they have made a filing with a Lithuanian Govt. department.Quote:
Originally Posted by HFCDaveA
I believe that a "Notice of Intention to Appoint an Administrator" is a document that needs to be filed as part of the process in the UK but the equivelant hasn't been done in UBIG's case yet?Quote:
Originally Posted by HFCDaveA
Could be wrong, I'm sure CavershamGreen or CWG will clarify
You are if course assuming der Hun will win division 2Quote:
Originally Posted by Cropley10
Think PTS already has.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bajillions
That said, I am not clued up on the Lith equivalent. My guess is that the legal advice to the SPL is that it hasn't been, therefore there is no "event" yet.
Even so, surely somebody at UBIG had to apply to put themselves on that list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bajillions
I'm just playing devils advocate as I actually think the right decision was made. It will also turn out to be the more painful process for them too.
Can i be first to say WHOOSH. :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by brydekirk
The BBC quotes seem to point that they have ruled that if UBIG do go under then Hearts will suffer - sorry cant post a link.Quote:
Originally Posted by Part/Time Supporter
:faf:Quote:
Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs
That's more than likely to be the case, but HMFC would no doubt still argue against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBean
Would have been very funny if they had been put down.
However the next few weeks / months / season are going to be very interesting to see where this all leads - as there is still no clear solution to the massive money problems they have and something is going to seriously give soon - I feel that will be a points deduction at the start of next season that gives all the 11 other clubs a big advantage right from the start and the yams playing catch up.
As as previous poster pointed out - going down would have brought about the siege mentality and longer term may have made them stronger.
Now they are going slowly deteriorate both on and off the pitch and allows us to hopefully beat them a few more times before they completely run dry next year with no Cup Final money etc / Europe money and exiting players fees.
The interesting this is going to be if it all goes wrong before the start of the season or mid season - how that's going to look on the SPL and those in charge.
http://www.hibs.net/images/hibsnet/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Cropley10 http://www.hibs.net/images/hibsnet/b...post-right.png
Correct decision by SPL.
However WHEN insolvency is confirmed then they will start next season -15 points.
They will then have a season of real frustration and almost certainly go down.
They will then have to get out of SFL1 at the same time as the Hun.
Death by a thousand cuts.
And what about the vote on a playoff, sure that will be agreed, so they only need to get 2nd to have a chance to come back up!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit Crab
That's the info I have (I posted about it the other day iirc)Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBean
The SPL is definitely of the opinion that UBIG is the parent company. Hearts can argue they are self sufficient til they are blue in the face, it won't matter because a) the rule doesn't say "unless your self sufficient" and b) the SPL know they haven't been for as long as they claim.
One thing the BBC article does seem to indicate is that there is no dispute that UBIG is considered to be their parent company.
So when (not if) UBIG do officially enter into insolvency then they will have no option but to dock them 15 points for the start of next season and it is likely they will lose Tynie as well.
TBH I think this was the best outcome today as the Yams (for some reason) think this is cause to celebrate, next season is going to be sooo much fun. :lolyam::yamlaugh::jamboclow
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22599730
c) the parent company is the parent company, irrespective of whether the club owned by them is 'self sufficient'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bajillions
Bake sales, empty share offers and empty piggy banks, raffles and Skacel pulling pints aside, Hearts are not self sufficient. They can barely pay the wages/suppliers and the tax man. And now we're into the closed season...
All thats happened today is the prisoner has appealed his conviction. The death penalty still stands but he has an appeal in to the governor.
The family of the victims are making their way to watch him be strapped to the chair.
Someone will switch it on soon. :greengrin
I'm quite pleased with this decision. They will be certs for the drop next season with or without a points deduction and they will have Sevco to contend with in the first division. This "great escape" has only increasd the dislike for them amongst those in Scottish football. The past will come back to bite them.:fenlon
Assuming they get that far, there will be play off places come 2014/2015 so Rankers winning that league might not end their promotion hopes. But this is all hypothetical, and under the assumption they survive the next few months.Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenrothesHibee
Quite right, its not time to start chucking the toys out the pram yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bajillions
I won't quote all the posts re notice of intent and Jamie Borthwick's tweets etc, but from what I can see Jamie's points are out of date.
The most relevant part of the rules IMO can be found in the definitions section under Insolvency Event s(g)
That's my bold, and the Group Company rule extends the provision to include UBIG in this case. The rules were updated on 3 December 2012.Quote:
Insolvency event means in respect of a Club:-
ceasing or forming an intention to cease wholly or substantially to carry on business save for the purpose of reconstruction or amalgamation or otherwise in accordance with a scheme or proposals which have previously been submitted to and approved in writing by the Board
I can't for the life of me see how a declaration of insolvency fails to fall into the 'forming an intention' box, but the fact that they've taken this approach rather than the distinction between HoMFC and UBIG would suggest that they consider UBIG to fall into the Group Company category and the points deduction will occur when UBIG are declared insolvent by a Lithuanian court. I have to assume they wouldn't be so incompetent or negligent that they didn't consider this aspect at their meeting, so a 15 point deduction next season will be inevitable.
It's arguably funnier to see the rootin-tootin weirdos blast their horns and paint each others faces (insert joke here) whilst we know full well that the dodgy house of cards is ready to come tumbling down any day soon.
It'll make their demise all the better. They really just don't get it do they? It's almost cruel to find joy at the maxed out ostriches.