Housing

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Originally Posted by greenginger

Not always the only reasons people rent their property.

Both my daughters have nice Edinburgh flats , one worked abroad for 8 years the other down south and rented their flats when they were away.

Would the anti landlord brigade prefer that the flats were left empty for years or maybe sell up and buy new flats when they returned paying the Scottish government parasites a huge sum in land tax.

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I have no problem with people covering their costs whilst their properties are temporarily empty.
The people I have little little sympathy for those who who bought up multiple properties to make easy money in the good times and are now complaining about their tenants being offered a bit of protection in tougher times. And much like the Tories justification for ditching the net zero policies they will say their opposition to rent control is because of their concern for ordinary people. Aye, right.

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

You mean the SNP government when you say "people"? Or maybe their supporters across diverse organisations, like Shelter or the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations?

It's almost like the some people are pretending that poor wee private market landlords aren't already maximising profits by milking our housing needy public for all they have.

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Anybody in any business looks to maximise profits. These rent controls make that a lot easier.
We have a housing shortage and you are attacking the people who are trying to provide housing. If you really cared you would campaign for more housing to be built. Start criticising all the nimby groups who oppose every single planning application.
Still if name calling of Landlords makes you feel better then knock yourself out.


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Originally Posted by marinello59

I have no problem with people covering their costs whilst their properties are temporarily empty.
The people I have little little sympathy for those who who bought up multiple properties to make easy money in the good times and are now complaining about their tenants being offered a bit of protection in tougher times. And much like the Tories justification for ditching the net zero policies they will say their opposition to rent control is because of their concern for ordinary people. Aye, right.

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It isn’t protecting tenants! Rents are rising faster because of it. [emoji35]


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Originally Posted by greenginger

Not always the only reasons people rent their property.

Both my daughters have nice Edinburgh flats , one worked abroad for 8 years the other down south and rented their flats when they were away.

Would the anti landlord brigade prefer that the flats were left empty for years or maybe sell up and buy new flats when they returned paying the Scottish government parasites a huge sum in land tax.

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Is LBTT hugely higher than SDLT dan sarf, or are English government also parasites? :dunno:

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

There is not a finite pot of money.


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Finite, meaning to have a limit or an end.

"The funds available for the health service are finite and we cannot afford to waste money".

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...english/finite

I think there is a finite pot of money, that is why I mentioned that we as a society need to choose how we spend it.

I suppose we could assist the finite nature of the funds available by introducing higher social tariffs on housebuilders, tax and regulate those renting homes as business (like the air b nb's)

I wonder how people who receive assistance via Housing Benefit can afford the already exorbitant private sector rents when the council have a long established local market rate for payment? Actually, I'll have a wild stab at this one and say that they can't.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

It isn’t protecting tenants! Rents are rising faster because of it. [emoji35]


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It's protecting existing tenants from excessive rent increases.
Who is raising the rents for new tenants?

The long term solution is obviously to provide much more social housing but that doesn't mean private tenants shouldn't be protected as well. When you look at the legislation it really isn't overly restrictive.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Anybody in any business looks to maximise profits. These rent controls make that a lot easier.
We have a housing shortage and you are attacking the people who are trying to provide housing. If you really cared you would campaign for more housing to be built. Start criticising all the nimby groups who oppose every single planning application.
Still if name calling of Landlords makes you feel better then knock yourself out.


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Nimby groups-direct from the Sheeple thesaurus of cliche. They don't appear very effective, as the huge encroachment onto former green belt land all around the south and east of Edinburgh for housing shows.

You have no idea what I do. The fact that you have to resort to that kind of nonsense during a discussion where someone wants to point out that there are alternatives your own rather assertive views says more about you than it does about me.

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Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Is LBTT hugely higher than SDLT dan sarf, or are English government also parasites? :dunno:

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Yes I’d say it’s hugely higher, I moved in July and paid nearly £7000 more than the equivalent person in England would have paid.

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Originally Posted by marinello59

It's protecting existing tenants from excessive rent increases.
Who is raising the rents for new tenants?

The long term solution is obviously to provide much more social housing but that doesn't mean private tenants shouldn't be protected as well. When you look at the legislation it really isn't overly restrictive.

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I think you can only call it a long term solution if we have made a start on it. We haven’t. It’s just a pipe dream.
I think if we doubled our rate of house building it wouldn’t be enough. It’s a scandal.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I think you can only call it a long term solution if we have made a start on it. We haven’t. It’s just a pipe dream.
I think if we doubled our rate of house building it wouldn’t be enough. It’s a scandal.


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That I agree with. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by hibee

Yes I’d say it’s hugely higher, I moved in July and paid nearly £7000 more than the equivalent person in England would have paid.

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Ok £7000 is a decent size wedge but if my calculations are right there's only a 1.7% difference in the effective rate of tax on your house price (2% dan sarf and 3.7% here). And generally less on smaller houses.

Nearly double, yes. Huge, a dunno. :dunno:

What's certain is that at least one poster will be along quite soon to claim that Additional Dwelling Supplement, largely a tax on landlords rather than on land, has the effect of putting tenants' rent up. :wink:

Quarterly affordable housing supply statistics are used to inform progress against Scottish Government affordable housing delivery targets, in which the ambition is to deliver 110,000 affordable homes by 2032, of which at least 70% will be for social rent and 10% will be in remote, rural and island communities.

There have been a total of 13,354 affordable homes completed between 23 March 2022 and 30 June 2023 towards the target of 110,000 affordable homes by 2032, consisting of 10,459 (78%) homes for social rent, 1,706 (13%) for affordable rent, and 1,189 (9%) for affordable home ownership.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/qu...eptember-2023/

In the latest year to end June 2023, increases were seen for private-led new build completions (9% or 1,342 homes) and housing association new build completions (18% or 728 homes), whilst local authority new build completions dropped by 23% or 589 homes.

There is a socially responsible house building programme in Scotland, let's not pretend otherwise. Clearly it needs much more investment.

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Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Ok £7000 is a decent size wedge but if my calculations are right there's only a 1.7% difference in the effective rate of tax on your house price (2% dan sarf and 3.7% here). And generally less on smaller houses.

Nearly double, yes. Huge, a dunno. :dunno:

What's certain is that at least one poster will be along quite soon to claim that Additional Dwelling Supplement, largely a tax on landlords rather than on land, has the effect of putting tenants' rent up. :wink:

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In England they pay 5% on purchases between £250,001 and £925,000 and we pay 10% on purchases between £325,001 and £750,000 so that’s where it hits quite hard.

According to their own website “LBTT makes up a large part of the Scottish government budget, a total self-reported tax liability of £83.9m was declared by taxpayers in August 2023. This is up 10% on last month.”

Maybe they should build some houses for rent with the income they make from this rather than diverting it away to be used elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by hibee

In England they pay 5% on purchases between £250,001 and £925,000 and we pay 10% on purchases between £325,001 and £750,000 so that’s where it hits quite hard.

According to their own website “LBTT makes up a large part of the Scottish government budget, a total self-reported tax liability of £83.9m was declared by taxpayers in August 2023. This is up 10% on last month.”

Maybe they should build some houses for rent with the income they make from this rather than diverting it away to be used elsewhere.

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Yep, costs must have gone up about 1000% since the days of stamp duty.

The Scottish government has its snout in the housing market trough as much as any developer, builder or landlord.

https://www.propertyinvestmentsuk.co...re%20different.

Scotland used to have the same Stamp Duty system as the rest of the UK but it brought in its own system as of April 2015. Although the basic concept of Land and Buildings Transaction Tax is the same as Stamp Duty – it is a tax on buying property – both the way it works and the rates of tax are different.

The LBTT system in Scotland, together with the fact that average property prices in Scotland are lower – the average property price in Scotland, in January 2023, was £185,016 – means that most buyers in Scotland pay less than buyers in England.

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https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...d-january-2023

In Scotland, average prices increased by 1.0% in the 12 months to January 2023, down from an increase of 5.1% in the 12 months to December 2022.

https://espc.com/advice/affordable-housing

Might be some useful information there.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

https://espc.com/advice/affordable-housing

Might be some useful information there.

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Good links to some of the existing schemes that support people to purchase houses.

Golden Share scheme

Golden Share homes are an approved affordable housing tenure within the Council’s Affordable Housing Policy. The properties are sold at 80% of Open Market Value (OMV) making them affordable to those who could not afford to purchase a similar home of its size in that area.

LIFT Open Market Shared Equity scheme-https://linkhousing.org.uk/LIFT/

Through the Scottish Government's Low-cost Initiative for First Time Buyers (LIFT), Applicants can receive up to 40% funding towards the price of a home on the open market. Link Housing administers the LIFT Open Market Shared Equity scheme on behalf of the Scottish Government throughout Scotland.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

https://www.propertyinvestmentsuk.co...re%20different.

Scotland used to have the same Stamp Duty system as the rest of the UK but it brought in its own system as of April 2015. Although the basic concept of Land and Buildings Transaction Tax is the same as Stamp Duty – it is a tax on buying property – both the way it works and the rates of tax are different.

The LBTT system in Scotland, together with the fact that average property prices in Scotland are lower – the average property price in Scotland, in January 2023, was £185,016 – means that most buyers in Scotland pay less than buyers in England.

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I think that's misleading in that a lot of people could and will pay more.

You have given the median average when you say £185K

Most people assume the average to be the mean, which is over £216,000

The mean in this case excludes strong outliers - houses sold for less than £20K or over £1m

Using the £185K figure is misleading because in simple terms it is the middle value - it only means that half the houses cost less, half cost more. Hypothetically, half the houses could cost £184K and half cost £300K. You wouldn't say the average was £185K based on that.

Mean average isn't perfect either but I think it's fair to say it's what most people assume is meant when 'average price' is used.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

https://www.propertyinvestmentsuk.co...re%20different.

Scotland used to have the same Stamp Duty system as the rest of the UK but it brought in its own system as of April 2015. Although the basic concept of Land and Buildings Transaction Tax is the same as Stamp Duty – it is a tax on buying property – both the way it works and the rates of tax are different.

The LBTT system in Scotland, together with the fact that average property prices in Scotland are lower – the average property price in Scotland, in January 2023, was £185,016 – means that most buyers in Scotland pay less than buyers in England.

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£185k???

What they buying? Shoe boxes in Dundee?

:greengrin

That portion taxed at 10% very quickly racks up the bills you're paying upfront to buy a house in the mid-market.

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Originally Posted by danhibees1875

£185k???

What they buying? Shoe boxes in Dundee?

:greengrin

That portion taxed at 10% very quickly racks up the bills you're paying upfront to buy a house in the mid-market.

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To be fair, £185k buys you a pretty good house in Dundee. Edinburgh prices are miles out of sync with most of Scotland.


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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

I think that's misleading in that a lot of people could and will pay more.

You have given the median average when you say £185K

Most people assume the average to be the mean, which is over £216,000

The mean in this case excludes strong outliers - houses sold for less than £20K or over £1m

Using the £185K figure is misleading because in simple terms it is the middle value - it only means that half the houses cost less, half cost more. Hypothetically, half the houses could cost £184K and half cost £300K. You wouldn't say the average was £185K based on that.

Mean average isn't perfect either but I think it's fair to say it's what most people assume is meant when 'average price' is used.

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Don't shoot the messenger, that's a straight quote from the link.

Property Investments UK

The Property Investments UK editorial team have been researching and writing about the UK's property market for more than a decade.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Don't shoot the messenger, that's a straight quote from the link.

Property Investments UK

The Property Investments UK editorial team have been researching and writing about the UK's property market for more than a decade.

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They may have been researching for more than a decade but it takes thirty seconds to get the official stats from GRoS, which is what they have used anyway.

I’m not really looking to have a go at you, I just don’t deal well with how stats are used, specially the misuse of averages :greengrin

GRoS, or perhaps U.K. gov, can’t remember which, do a pretty good heat map with mean averages by local authority area. City of Edinburgh and East Lothian average at over £300,000. Midlothian, West Lothian both over £200K, Scottish Borders just shy of £200K. If you want affordable housing then Inverclyde or East Ayrshire are your best bets :greengrin

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Originally Posted by greenginger

Yep, costs must have gone up about 1000% since the days of stamp duty.

The Scottish government has its snout in the housing market trough as much as any developer, builder or landlord.

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Stamp Duty in 2015 on a £300,000 house = £3500
LBTT in 2023 on a £300,000 house = £4600
(If average house price was £150,000 then, Stamp Duty = £500, getting pretty close to 1000%)

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye

They may have been researching for more than a decade but it takes thirty seconds to get the official stats from GRoS, which is what they have used anyway.

I’m not really looking to have a go at you, I just don’t deal well with how stats are used, specially the misuse of averages :greengrin

GRoS, or perhaps U.K. gov, can’t remember which, do a pretty good heat map with mean averages by local authority area. City of Edinburgh and East Lothian average at over £300,000. Midlothian, West Lothian both over £200K, Scottish Borders just shy of £200K. If you want affordable housing then Inverclyde or East Ayrshire are your best bets :greengrin

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https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/uk-house-price-index-for-january-2023/uk-house-price-index-scotland-january-2023


Are the UK government figures wrong as well? 🤔😉

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Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Stamp Duty in 2015 on a £300,000 house = £3500
LBTT in 2023 on a £300,000 house = £4600
(If average house price was £150,000 then, Stamp Duty = £500, getting pretty close to 1000%)

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Hasn’t slowed house prices, that’s for sure.


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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/uk-house-price-index-for-january-2023/uk-house-price-index-scotland-january-2023


Are the UK government figures wrong as well? ����

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You've just taken us back to the start of our exchange. Will this never end?????? :greengrin

Your £185K figure, as used in the links you have posted is a median average. Using the median to make a point can easily lead to false conclusions.

The mean average for Scotland is around £216K. Using the mean can also lead to false conclusions but the mean is what people commonly think of when they see the word 'average in this context - not median and not mode (God help us!)

The mean average in Edinburgh is over £300K. The mean average in East Lothian is also over £300K. The mean average in Midlothian is over £230K and the mean average in West Lothian is over £200K. I suspect those figures will be more relatable to the majority of posters on here than your scottish median average is. Does that sound fair enough?

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Hasn’t slowed house prices, that’s for sure.


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That’s quite possibly because it acts as a barrier to people moving thus acts as a brake on secondary supply which in turn raises the prices of those that are made available.

Just one of the many Gordian Knot distortions that the powers that be have layered onto the housing market.

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Originally Posted by RyeSloan

That’s quite possibly because it acts as a barrier to people moving thus acts as a brake on secondary supply which in turn raises the prices of those that are made available.

Just one of the many Gordian Knot distortions that the powers that be have layered onto the housing market.

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:agree:

Nice bit of contribution analysis, or the law of intendedunintended consequences if you prefer.

But as you say, there will be almost countless other factors that come into play, when or even aggregated up to population level.

The total number of residential property sales for 2020-2021 was 101,055, a decrease of 7.9% when compared with 2021-22.

The average price of a residential property in Scotland was £216,337, an increase of 7.1% when compared with 2021-22

The total value of the residential sales market in Scotland was £21.9 billion, a decrease of 1.4% when compared with 2021-22.

https://www.ros.gov.uk/data-and-stat...report-2022-23

However, there are significant regional variations at work. The rural property market seems worryingly inflated though. Alarming for younger people who live in areas like Western Isles, Orkney, Shetland, Argyll and Bute.

In Scotland, average prices increased by 7.3% in the year to September 2022, down from an increase of 8.8% in the year to August 2022.

Annual price change by local authority for Scotland

Low numbers of sales transactions in some local authorities, such as Orkney Islands, Na h-Eileanan Siar and Shetland Islands, can lead to volatility in the series.

Edinburgh's inflated prices......

Sept 2022 Sept 2021
City of Aberdeen £145,153 £148,697 -2.4%
City of Dundee £155,896 £143,331 8.8%
City of Edinburgh £337,087 £315,613 6.8%
City of Glasgow £176,087 £163,969 7.4%

https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...september-2022