(Soon to be) Former President Donald Trump

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

I've heard summary execution is on the cards for people driving slower than 55 on the highway, unless they're listening to country and western of course.

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😂 Somehow I don't think everyone will appreciate this, does it only apply on motorways and dual carriageways? Asking for the old boy in Fife.

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Originally Posted by Mcbizz1998

Although this is a straw man as well as a dig at me, its an interesting question. At which point does democracy have to be set aside in the name of morality?

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It’s not a straw man, it’s a very appropriate comparison. And you need to park your version of morality as well, because it’s very very debatable. So try answering it.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

So by that, you mean that the man has no responsibilty?

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Nope. Not what I said unsure where you inferred that from my post.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

So by that, you mean that the man has no responsibilty?

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You're sowing the seed of doubt 😉

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Originally Posted by Mcbizz1998

Nope. Not what I said unsure where you inferred that from my post.

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Probably from the use of "She is responsible for herself and for getting pregnant".

I'd say that's a reasonable inference.

You might want to re-phrase it to avoid others thinking the same.

https://www.publichealthscotland.sco...december-2021/

Just for context, scottish abortion statistics. Higher rates in areas of deprivation unsurprisingly, but let's force them into greater deprivation by making them have large families? 🤔

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Probably from the use of "She is responsible for herself and for getting pregnant".

I'd say that's a reasonable inference.

You might want to re-phrase it to avoid others thinking the same.

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I never said solely responsible, did I? Nah, if others are unable to read and understand English then I’m not holding their hand.

I think men have a huge part to play too and I’m sure men are guilty of encouraging and sometimes forcing women into abortions in order to shirk their own responsibilities for the woman’s pregnancy.

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Originally Posted by Mcbizz1998

Well this is where we differ. Clearly you don’t believe an unborn child is a person and therefore has no rights? I believe they are viable people and to kill then as a matter of convenience is wrong. Somehow that’s become an evil immoral stance to take in todays world but there we go.

Nobody is forcing the woman to do anything. She is responsible for herself and for getting pregnant (other than in cases of rape where I believe abortion should be an option). Once pregnant, I don’t believe anyone has a right to kill the child unless in extreme circumstances.

I believe the rule of law should apply to everyone, especially the most vulnerable- like baby’s.

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Men also don't have to do anything (other than in cases of rape), where does their responsibility start and end in your view?

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

It’s not a straw man, it’s a very appropriate comparison. And you need to park your version of morality as well, because it’s very very debatable. So try answering it.

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It’s pretty much the definition of a straw man. He never refuted my point, just came up with a made up a hypothetical scenario and demanded I answer it. That’s a straw man.

Well, as I said it’s a very interesting question. There are lots of countries around the world that have laws and practices that don’t align with our western values and they are supported by the majority of people (gay rights in Africa). I’m not saying I know the answer. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by Mcbizz1998

I never said solely responsible, did I? Nah, if others are unable to read and understand English then I’m not holding their hand.

I think men have a huge part to play too and I’m sure men are guilty of encouraging and sometimes forcing women into abortions in order to shirk their own responsibilities for the woman’s pregnancy.

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No need for the snide comments. It was a genuine request for clarification.

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

Men also don't have to do anything (other than in cases of rape), where does their responsibility start and end in your view?

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They should have to do something. They should take responsibility and be fathers to the child. It starts the moment they have sex and take the chance of having a child. If that comes to pass they should step up. The hook up culture we now live in means that most young men don’t agree and leave women to pick up the pieces.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

No need for the snide comments. It was a genuine request for clarification.

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Fair enough mate, my bad. Apologies.

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Originally Posted by Mcbizz1998

Yes I’m pro life and I’m anti abortion. I’m not afraid or ashamed to say that.

I don’t believe killing the unborn is right, somehow I’m the bad guy. So be it.

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Nobody is calling you a bad guy. I understand the arguments about protecting the most vulnerable. I was raised Catholic and I know it's an ethical issue a lot of people agonise over. In a perfect world there would never be need for abortion, but we don't live in a perfect world. Real life gets in the way. The central question for me is whether or not a woman should have the right to control her own reproduction. For me, yes, because forcing a woman to give birth against her will is, I believe, a violation of her human rights and even a from of torture. I don't think anybody is 'pro-abortion' in the sense of it being a good thing, but on balance I don't think there is an alternative. As the saying goes, you can't be a little bit pregnant, so what's the best thing to do? I think allowing a termination to a woman who doesn't want a pregnancy is a far lesser evil than forcing her to give birth against her will. Of course there are legal safeguards, such as time limits. We must also remember that outlawing abortions won't stop them. Women will still have illegal and unsafe abortions and will die as a result.

I used to long to go to America. Not now.
Maybe New York just to see the sights.

Interesting section in the classic data book freakanomics. There was a marked huge and steady decrease in every kind of crime starting about 15 year post roe v wade. Less people having children they couldn't afford or emotionally care for.

I hope none of the republican nutters have ever had an eduardo the tank, as every sperms is sacred

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Originally Posted by heretoday

I used to long to go to America. Not now.
Maybe New York just to see the sights.

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New yorks a **** hole with undeniable jems in it. Poverty is just everywhere, even all over manhatten be good if you like a smoke as about the same amount of hash shops as the dam now.

Another question this throws up is what happens to women who are caught breaking the law by having an illegal abortion? Are they going to be prosecuted, given a criminal record, perhaps even jailed? How will it work in practice?

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Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba

Nobody is calling you a bad guy. I understand the arguments about protecting the most vulnerable. I was raised Catholic and I know it's an ethical issue a lot of people agonise over. In a perfect world there would never be need for abortion, but we don't live in a perfect world. Real life gets in the way. The central question for me is whether or not a woman should have the right to control her own reproduction. For me, yes, because forcing a woman to give birth against her will is, I believe, a violation of her human rights and even a from of torture. I don't think anybody is 'pro-abortion' in the sense of it being a good thing, but on balance I don't think there is an alternative. As the saying goes, you can't be a little bit pregnant, so what's the best thing to do? I think allowing a termination to a woman who doesn't want a pregnancy is a far lesser evil than forcing her to give birth against her will. Of course there are legal safeguards, such as time limits. We must also remember that outlawing abortions won't stop them. Women will still have illegal and unsafe abortions and will die as a result.

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Absolutely. I posted the Scottish statistics 20 minutes ago and they pointed out that most abortions were 'therapeutic' and the majority were in areas of deprivation.

So far there has been no response to the question, why increase deprivation by forcing large families on young women who are probably having to go to food banks already?

Macron trying to virtue signal but being shown up as the right wing nipple he is.

acron
@EmmanuelMacron

Abortion is a fundamental right for all women. It must be protected. I wish to express my solidarity with the women whose liberties are being undermined by the Supreme Court of the United States

Devan Sinha
@DevanSinha
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11m
Abortion laws in France (14 weeks, even in cases of rape) are marginally more restrictive than the Mississippi law SCOTUS upheld today (Dobbs v. Jackson, 15 weeks) overruling Roe v. Wade.

Europe is not a paragon of women's reproductive rights. Some nations do better than others

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Originally Posted by Mcbizz1998

They should have to do something. They should take responsibility and be fathers to the child. It starts the moment they have sex and take the chance of having a child. If that comes to pass they should step up. The hook up culture we now live in means that most young men don’t agree and leave women to pick up the pieces.

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Just how do you juggle being a father to 4 kids by different mothers?

Isn't it strange how all these religious US political/preacher nutjobs who preach about morality, are normally the same guys who get caught sending photos of their trouser snakes to choir girls/boys.

Ahmed Ali
@MrAhmednurAli
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You can never ban abortion, you can only ban safe abortions. Read that again

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Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba

Nobody is calling you a bad guy. I understand the arguments about protecting the most vulnerable. I was raised Catholic and I know it's an ethical issue a lot of people agonise over. In a perfect world there would never be need for abortion, but we don't live in a perfect world. Real life gets in the way. The central question for me is whether or not a woman should have the right to control her own reproduction. For me, yes, because forcing a woman to give birth against her will is, I believe, a violation of her human rights and even a from of torture. I don't think anybody is 'pro-abortion' in the sense of it being a good thing, but on balance I don't think there is an alternative. As the saying goes, you can't be a little bit pregnant, so what's the best thing to do? I think allowing a termination to a woman who doesn't want a pregnancy is a far lesser evil than forcing her to give birth against her will. Of course there are legal safeguards, such as time limits. We must also remember that outlawing abortions won't stop them. Women will still have illegal and unsafe abortions and will die as a result.

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Well, some people absolutely do think pro-life is bad . A quick look on Twitter tonight is an eye opener on that one haha! Also, some people seem to very much be pro-abortion - with some even bragging about how many they have had on social media! Im not sure if that’s just due to how polarised some people are on the issue that they are being extreme?

I appreciate what you are saying though about women being forced to reproduce. My view is that the hook up culture we live in takes away the responsibility people (both sexes) have when having sex. Women aren’t forced to give birth, because in almost all cases they aren’t forced to have sex. Once sex is separated from reproduction, as it is in todays world, I can very much agree with the argument you are making.

Women and men have choices if they want to avoid pregnancy. The only party with no choice is the unborn child and I just can’t accept that ending their life due to the poor choices made by the parents is somehow morally right.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Absolutely. I posted the Scottish statistics 20 minutes ago and they pointed out that most abortions were 'therapeutic' and the majority were in areas of deprivation.

So far there has been no response to the question, why increase deprivation by forcing large families on young women who are probably having to go to food banks already?

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But again, nobody forced them to have unprotected sex? How about people take responsibility for themselves instead of getting pregnant when they can’t afford it and then using abortion as an easy way out?

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Absolutely. I posted the Scottish statistics 20 minutes ago and they pointed out that most abortions were 'therapeutic' and the majority were in areas of deprivation.

So far there has been no response to the question, why increase deprivation by forcing large families on young women who are probably having to go to food banks already?

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My gran on my mother's side was very devout in her Catholicism and had twelve children as a result, which wasn't uncommon back then. Not only was abortion unthinkable, contraception was a total no-no. Of course it was never discussed, but if she was alive today I would ask her if she would do it differently, if she had the chance. Such a big family took a huge physical, emotional and financial toll on my grandparents. As stated, contraception availability is something the GOP also has its sights upon, in its quest to turn the clock back a century. Sex for women is purely within marriage and in order to get pregnant again. Women of childbearing age are to be brood mares, in and out of the maternity ward every year. Or of course there is the option of married couples having separate bedrooms, like good Christians should. Of course, the Republican Party doesn't believe the state should help those big families it will help create - that's socialism, you're on your own.

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Originally Posted by Mcbizz1998

But again, nobody forced them to have unprotected sex? How about people take responsibility for themselves instead of getting pregnant when they can’t afford it and then using abortion as an easy way out?

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So, how do you intend to get these people out of poverty if you are preventing them from having a safe, clinical abortion?

Don't tell me you have never heard of accidents happening.


FWIW, I have no children, not by choice, but to tell people who are fortunate to become pregnant, possibly at the wrong time of their lives, under age for example, that they just have to suck it up and get on with it!!?

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

So, how do you intend to get these people out of poverty if you are preventing them from having a safe, clinical abortion?

Don't tell me you have never heard of accidents happening.


FWIW, I have no children, not by choice, but to tell people who are fortunate to become pregnant, possibly at the wrong time of their lives, under age for example, that they just have to suck it up and get on with it!!?

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Yep the you've made a mistake now live with it is as stupid and victorian, as those that say the same about brexit.

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Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba

Another question this throws up is what happens to women who are caught breaking the law by having an illegal abortion? Are they going to be prosecuted, given a criminal record, perhaps even jailed? How will it work in practice?

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Yes, certainly in Missouri now, even assisting someone to get one is punishable by time inside.

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Originally Posted by Mcbizz1998

But again, nobody forced them to have unprotected sex? How about people take responsibility for themselves instead of getting pregnant when they can’t afford it and then using abortion as an easy way out?

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Surely you’re not advocating for the use of contraception? Isn’t that amoral and a sin too, just like abortion?

Every drop of sperm caught in that condom is a dead kid surely.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

So, how do you intend to get these people out of poverty if you are preventing them from having a safe, clinical abortion?

Don't tell me you have never heard of accidents happening.


FWIW, I have no children, not by choice, but to tell people who are fortunate to become pregnant, possibly at the wrong time of their lives, under age for example, that they just have to suck it up and get on with it!!?

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You're right, those American states which ban abortion will make the lives of poorer women even more difficult. It will be like the bad old days: those who can afford it will go to a private clinic where doctors charge big money for doing abortions illegally. It's a very nice side revenue. Everyone will be told she is visiting family for a few days and it will never be mentioned again. If the woman is poor, it's another baby to feed and clothe or the coat-hanger option...

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

So, how do you intend to get these people out of poverty if you are preventing them from having a safe, clinical abortion?

Don't tell me you have never heard of accidents happening.


FWIW, I have no children, not by choice, but to tell people who are fortunate to become pregnant, possibly at the wrong time of their lives, under age for example, that they just have to suck it up and get on with it!!?

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Well, if the alternative is killing a child then ….. yeah!

This ultimately comes down to that. Do you think killing an unborn child is wrong in almost all cases? In my case, yes I do.

I have a friend who’s sister got pregnant at 14. Her mother had high hopes for her to go to university, get a great job, married and do all that parents wish for their children. The girl chose to have her child and I can assure you she wouldn’t have it any other way. Accidents happen but only once you make the decision to have sex which is risky. I just don’t accept that killing the child because it’s not right for you at that particular time is right and I’m genuinely worried for a society that believes it is.