The Trans Rights Debate

Joanna Cherry QC
@joannaccherry
🧵In the past week both Lorna Slater and Patrick Harvie have displayed an extraordinary insouciance towards human rights and equality law by seeking to brand women who question legislative proposals based on gender identity theory

as “transphobes”” & akin to “racists” and “anti-Semites”. Ms Slater wants us banned from the airwaves & Mr Harvie wants us disciplined by our political parties. They really need to acquaint themselves with Articles 9 & 10 ECHR which protect freedom of belief

& freedom of speech in this country. They could also do with reading & understanding the Equality Act & the decision of the Employment Appeal Tribunal in case of Maya Forstater v CGD Europe which established that discrimination, harassment, and victimisation
against persons of gender critical belief is unlawful under the Equality Act. While this was an employment law case the prohibition of this sort of discrimination applies to membership organisations, including political parties, in respect of their members

The Green Party of England & Wales is currently being sued by a former leadership candidate for such discrimination. No doubt thats why sensible political parties in Scotland are not pursuing complaints against women merely for holding & expressing such views

in the way that Mr Harvie seems to want. Both MSPs would also do well to take a look at the Public Sector Equality Duty which obliges those in government to have due regard to the need to eliminate discrimination, advance equality of opportunity

and to foster good relations between different protected characteristics. ENDS

https://www.heraldscotland.com/polit...ty/?ref=twtrec

Green minister Patrick Harvie accuses SNP of allowing transphobia to 'fester' in the party

GREEN minister Patrick Harvie has accused his SNP partners in government of failing to tackle transphobia by “a significant number of high-profile people” in the party.

Mr Harvie said the issue should have led to disciplinary action by the SNP, but instead it had been “allowed to fester” and people got away with “promoting transphobia

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

😆 lesbian sex can have consequences these days 👶

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost....er-inmate/amp/

Two inmates serving time in New Jersey’s only state prison for women became pregnant after they had sex with a transgender inmate, according to a report Wednesday.

---

The transgender movement has became Orwellian with the slogan transwomen are women, it's like a religious cult who believe that if they say it often enough it will become true, but it won't no matter how many times it's said, transwomen are not women, they are men who identify as women.

There is something deeply misogynistic about the way the transgender movement call feminist lesbians who want to date biological females TERFS, transphobes and racists, this article is a good example of why it is not a good idea to allow men who identify as women into female spaces such as domestic violence shelters, female changing rooms or female prisons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 147lothian

The transgender movement has became Orwellian with the slogan transwomen are women, it's like a religious cult who believe that if they say it often enough it will become true, but it won't no matter how many times it's said, transwomen are not women, they are men who identify as women.

There is something deeply misogynistic about the way the transgender movement call feminist lesbians who want to date biological females TERFS, transphobes and racists, this article is a good example of why it is not a good idea to allow men who identify as women into female spaces such as domestic violence shelters, female changing rooms or female prisons.

---

Does this also apply to transsexual women?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba

That's great to hear, it must be an enormous shock initially. It must make all the difference when family are supportive.

---

Again, echoes with LGB history.

A generation or two ago, families struggled with the idea of their kids being gay. Stonewall Youth was full of people who had been rejected by their families.

Nowadays, society is easier with those situations. But the issues are replicated in families where a kid has gender issues.

My mate's CIS-daughter was in the lucky position, when they were struggling, of having a supportive family who managed to help them through it. Sadly, that's not always the case. My mate now finds himself counselling other parents who are having problems coming to terms with similar situations.

As for his trans-son, he's a man. He's a man to the important people in his life...his mates, his family, his girlfriend, his employer, but most of all to himself.

https://nypost.com/2022/04/14/edna-m...gender-inmate/

This story has now been verified

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/two-fe...gnant-26720357

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22563262/

Some interesting research papers that lend themselves to the fear some in the LGB community have that gender reassignment can be situations where the person who is struggling with their identity is actually struggling with their sexuality.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 147lothian

The transgender movement has became Orwellian with the slogan transwomen are women, it's like a religious cult who believe that if they say it often enough it will become true, but it won't no matter how many times it's said, transwomen are not women, they are men who identify as women.

There is something deeply misogynistic about the way the transgender movement call feminist lesbians who want to date biological females TERFS, transphobes and racists, this article is a good example of why it is not a good idea to allow men who identify as women into female spaces such as domestic violence shelters, female changing rooms or female prisons.

---

I agree with much of what you say. However, I disagree with this part. If you have undergone gender reassignment.

It's not just feminist lesbians who want to date females who get called transphobic and the likes. You have people like the male head of the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre castigating opposition and objection to his recruitment with attempts to close down the discussion and silence women.


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...ents-2b9kdvc75


"Mridul Wadhwa, 43, a trans woman and former SNP parliamentary candidate who was appointed chief executive of Edinburgh Rape Crisis in May, made the controversial remarks while speaking on a podcast. While discussing trans-inclusion, discrimination and sexual violence on The Guilty Feminist she said: “Sexual violence happens to bigoted people as well. But these spaces are also for you.
“But if you bring unacceptable beliefs that are discriminatory in nature, we will begin to work with you on your journey of recovery from trauma. But please also expect to be challenged"

Read those words and ponder. An anti feminist, biological male, (could also be described as misogynistic and self entitled), talking about challenging women victims of sexual harm who want a biological female staff member to support them.

Utter madness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

I agree with much of what you say. However, I disagree with this part. If you have undergone gender reassignment.

It's not just feminist lesbians who want to date females who get called transphobic and the likes. You have people like the male head of the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre castigating opposition and objection to his recruitment with attempts to close down the discussion and silence women.


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...ents-2b9kdvc75


"Mridul Wadhwa, 43, a trans woman and former SNP parliamentary candidate who was appointed chief executive of Edinburgh Rape Crisis in May, made the controversial remarks while speaking on a podcast. While discussing trans-inclusion, discrimination and sexual violence on The Guilty Feminist she said: “Sexual violence happens to bigoted people as well. But these spaces are also for you.
“But if you bring unacceptable beliefs that are discriminatory in nature, we will begin to work with you on your journey of recovery from trauma. But please also expect to be challenged"

Read those words and ponder. An anti feminist, biological male, (could also be described as misogynistic and self entitled), talking about challenging women victims of sexual harm who want a biological female staff member to support them.

Utter madness.

---

Even with surgery, which stats say is the minority of those in the trans umbrella you remain biologically the sex you were assessed as being from conception. It's one of the issues where recording of biological sex is important as the vulnerability to certain health conditions depends on your sex. Every cell in the body contains genetic material directly as a consequence of your sex.

Puberty blockers and other medicalisation can affect the long term health outcomes for people - vulnerability to conditions like osteoporosis are linked to sex hormones and the normal hormonal cycles in sexed bodies. You build up your bone density especially during puberty. It's one of the reasons the male trans identifying athletes who go through male puberty retain physical advantage. However, if you delay or block puberty that process is undermined and there's increased risk of bone fractures. There's a 15 year old in Australia who was put on puberty blockers at 12 who is currently looking to take legal action for the consequences of that decision being endorsed and facilitated by adults. The teenager is on crutches because of the impact of the puberty blockers on their bones.
You have to wonder at whether this kind of thing will impact on the apparent willingness to affirm dysphoria in the case of gender in a way it doesn't happen with other mental health situations like body dysphoria and eating disorders. Nobody ever tells the underweight anorexic that the body they perceive is okay, for example.

This issue is so wide ranging and complex it needs a considered and careful approach that takes into account the age, understanding, underlying health etc of individuals. It really also needs greater clarity over what trans means because there is a difference between someone who has a paraphilia and gets aroused by dressing up as the opposite sex in gender stereotypical manner and some of the young girls on the spectrum where the biggest increase in the requests for surgery has happened in the last decade and then everything in between. And public attitudes to it does appear to be linked to what they perceive trans to mean.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LewysGot2

Even with surgery, which stats say is the minority of those in the trans umbrella you remain biologically the sex you were assessed as being from conception. It's one of the issues where recording of biological sex is important as the vulnerability to certain health conditions depends on your sex. Every cell in the body contains genetic material directly as a consequence of your sex.

Puberty blockers and other medicalisation can affect the long term health outcomes for people - vulnerability to conditions like osteoporosis are linked to sex hormones and the normal hormonal cycles in sexed bodies. You build up your bone density especially during puberty. It's one of the reasons the male trans identifying athletes who go through male puberty retain physical advantage. However, if you delay or block puberty that process is undermined and there's increased risk of bone fractures. There's a 15 year old in Australia who was put on puberty blockers at 12 who is currently looking to take legal action for the consequences of that decision being endorsed and facilitated by adults. The teenager is on crutches because of the impact of the puberty blockers on their bones.
You have to wonder at whether this kind of thing will impact on the apparent willingness to affirm dysphoria in the case of gender in a way it doesn't happen with other mental health situations like body dysphoria and eating disorders. Nobody ever tells the underweight anorexic that the body they perceive is okay, for example.

This issue is so wide ranging and complex it needs a considered and careful approach that takes into account the age, understanding, underlying health etc of individuals. It really also needs greater clarity over what trans means because there is a difference between someone who has a paraphilia and gets aroused by dressing up as the opposite sex in gender stereotypical manner and some of the young girls on the spectrum where the biggest increase in the requests for surgery has happened in the last decade and then everything in between. And public attitudes to it does appear to be linked to what they perceive trans to mean.

---

What do you think of Mridul Wadha and his statement about women who want biologically female support following rape or sexual assault? Are they appropriate for someone who is head of a rape crisis centre?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

What do you think of Mridul Wadha and his statement about women who want biologically female support following rape or sexual assault? Are they appropriate for someone who is head of a rape crisis centre?

---

Disgusting of course women should be allowed to be seen by only biological females if they want, at their most vulnerable point. Trans rights have thankfully came such a long way. But surely trans can accept some women's choices.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

What do you think of Mridul Wadha and his statement about women who want biologically female support following rape or sexual assault? Are they appropriate for someone who is head of a rape crisis centre?

---

My view is that the CEO of a rape crisis centre should be a woman, not a transwoman, i'e not a man who identifies as a woman. I don't think that a man who identifies as a woman should be telling woman to reframe their trauma. Whatever spin is put on it when he says things like "even bigots get raped" And that Woman who don't want Mridul Wadha in the room or to be anywhere near him will need to be re-educated, it becomes clear what he is doing is, he is using traumatized women as a way of pushing trans activism IMO

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

What do you think of Mridul Wadha and his statement about women who want biologically female support following rape or sexual assault? Are they appropriate for someone who is head of a rape crisis centre?

---

Females (and males) should be allowed to seek support or medical treatment from someone of the sex they feel most comfortable being seen by. Why would anyone seek to further traumatise or cause discomfort or upset to another human being? The priority has to be the feelings of the victim or patient, nobody else's. You'd think those working in rape crisis, medical support or the law enforcement agencies would put this 100% first and foremost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 147lothian

My view is that the CEO of a rape crisis centre should be a woman, not a transwoman, i'e not a man who identifies as a woman. I don't think that a man who identifies as a woman should be telling woman to reframe their trauma. Whatever spin is put on it when he says things like "even bigots get raped" And that Woman who don't want Mridul Wadha in the room or anywhere near him will need to be re-educated, it becomes clear what he is doing is, he is using traumatized women as a way of pushing trans activism IMO

---

I totally agree. How on earth this guy got appointed I'll never understand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LewysGot2

Females (and males) should be allowed to seek support or medical treatment from someone of the sex they feel most comfortable being seen by. Why would anyone seek to further traumatise or cause discomfort or upset to another human being? The priority has to be the feelings of the victim or patient, nobody else's. You'd think those working in rape crisis, medical support or the law enforcement agencies would put this 100% first and foremost.

---

I suspect many of the staff who work at ERCC share the same view.

It's heartening to see so many well thought out replies on all the different angles on Trans Rights discussion on here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

[/B]

Good post.

The path this takes us down is alarming to me. Thought police, hate crime, wokeism, control. The enemies of freedom of speech.

---

If this isn't an issue one doesn't spend much time assessing it would probably be quite easy to assume the extreme views of Slater, Harvie et al are shared by the trans community. That's far from the case:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-scottish-greens-are-in-cloud-cuckoo-land-on-trans-rights

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by He's here!

If this isn't an issue one doesn't spend much time assessing it would probably be quite easy to assume the extreme views of Slater, Harvie et al are shared by the trans community. That's far from the case:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...n-trans-rights

---

You've linked one person's views. How does that demonstrate that the views of Harvie and Slater are not shared by the trans community? :confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

You've linked one person's views. How does that demonstrate that the views of Harvie and Slater are not shared by the trans community? :confused:

---

To say your a bigot if a lesbian woman doesn't want to go with a trans women is just f'ing mental. The language used by the greens in attacking the snp was ridiculous and I'm glad Joanna Cherry hit back.

I know one trans person and he's so easy going. He says obviously some people forget and call me her, even her mum. But as long as they are nice she doesn't care. The only thing he's bothered about is the waiting time for the operations. Nhs is years so he's paying thousands to do privately

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

To say your a bigot if a lesbian woman doesn't want to go with a trans women is just f'ing mental. The language used by the greens in attacking the snp was ridiculous and I'm glad Joanna Cherry hit back.

I know one trans person and he's so easy going. He says obviously some people forget and call me her, even her mum. But as long as they are nice she doesn't care. The only thing he's bothered about is the waiting time for the operations. Nhs is years so he's paying thousands to do privately

---

The video I put a link to of Jude talking about the time and cost involved confirmed your last point. 5 years from referral to first assessment for example, and 10k for top surgery alone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

The video I put a link to of Jude talking about the time and cost involved confirmed your last point. 5 years from referral to first assessment for example, and 10k for top surgery alone.

---

He's paying for his top surgery himself soon, had to get a loan. Terrible. You think how much resources nhs uses for people drinking and smoking, or battering and stabbing each other. More funding should be available for people transitioning without getting in huge debt

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

He's paying for his top surgery himself soon, had to get a loan. Terrible. You think how much resources nhs uses for people drinking and smoking, or battering and stabbing each other. More funding should be available for people transitioning without getting in huge debt

---

Jude has done a crowd funding for his surgery, but he has a lot of followers on YouTube and in the crafter community. He is also unsure if he will have lower surgery.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

You've linked one person's views. How does that demonstrate that the views of Harvie and Slater are not shared by the trans community? :confused:

---

Yeh, fair enough, I should probably have said that their views aren't shared by everyone in the trans community, much as they give the impression they are some sort of elected spokespeople for everyone who is trans in Scotland. As a transgender secondary school science teacher and journalist, though, Debbie Hayton brings a more balanced perspective than the likes of Slater, while a Google search will yield plenty of examples of transgender people who don't agree with gender self-identification. There are also plenty who wholeheartedly disagree with the demonisation of J K Rowling for stating some fundamental truths around biology.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by He's here!

Yeh, fair enough, I should probably have said that their views aren't shared by everyone in the trans community, much as they give the impression they are some sort of elected spokespeople for everyone who is trans in Scotland. As a transgender secondary school science teacher and journalist, though, Debbie Hayton brings a more balanced perspective than the likes of Slater, while a Google search will yield plenty of examples of transgender people who don't agree with gender self-identification. There are also plenty who wholeheartedly disagree with the demonisation of J K Rowling for stating some fundamental truths around biology.

---

Hard to see how a broad consensus, or anything like it, on most of these issues is going to emerge anytime soon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Hard to see how a broad consensus, or anything like it, on most of these issues is going to emerge anytime soon.

---

Agreed, though this isn't like party politics where consensus is understandably hard to reach. It's a minority of obsessives trying to impose their OTT views on a society which, by and large, would otherwise be largely untroubled by this issue.

It's a shame there are in some circles a sectarian clash between feminists and trans people. They should be on the same side, division allows the bigots to drive a wedge between them. Of course debate is a good thing, but, as ever, it's the manner of debate that is key. When it becomes hateful and spiteful nobody wins but those who oppose both groups.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by He's here!

Yeh, fair enough, I should probably have said that their views aren't shared by everyone in the trans community, much as they give the impression they are some sort of elected spokespeople for everyone who is trans in Scotland. As a transgender secondary school science teacher and journalist, though, Debbie Hayton brings a more balanced perspective than the likes of Slater, while a Google search will yield plenty of examples of transgender people who don't agree with gender self-identification. There are also plenty who wholeheartedly disagree with the demonisation of J K Rowling for stating some fundamental truths around biology.

---

Good post.

The politicisation of this issue is alarming, as are the attempts to close down opposition to the legislative approach through accusations of transphobia etc.

Female athletes feel let down by their sports bodies and want to compete with trans athletes.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/61157886


Interesting that she feels her medals are diminished because women's sports are considered lesser.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Female athletes feel let down by their sports bodies and want to compete with trans athletes.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/61157886


Interesting that she feels her medals are diminished because women's sports are considered lesser.

---

She says they have been treated unfair but they do have a physical advantage in strength and stamina. She's saying biology does matter, because it does. Women aren't slower than men because they try less hard, its biology. It's not just about testosterone, it's muscle mass, bone density, stamina ect. Just make the mens competitions an open category

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

She says they have been treated unfair but they do have a physical advantage in strength and stamina. She's saying biology does matter, because it does. Women aren't slower than men because they try less hard, its biology. It's not just about testosterone, it's muscle mass, bone density, stamina ect. Just make the mens competitions an open category

---

You're correct. I used to compete with Edinburgh Athletic. Up until I was about 14/15 years old I could beat all the boys in my year group at sprints and middle distance (obviously never competed against them at club level as separate competitions for boys/girls). As soon as we passed that age, a few boys who had developed more physically began beating me.

More generally, I personally don't know any transgender people that I am aware off, so have found this thread really interesting. It's given me a greater understanding of the concerns raised on both sides.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

She says they have been treated unfair but they do have a physical advantage in strength and stamina. She's saying biology does matter, because it does. Women aren't slower than men because they try less hard, its biology. It's not just about testosterone, it's muscle mass, bone density, stamina ect. Just make the mens competitions an open category

---

Does she say that she doesn't want to compete with trans athletes or not?

Does she say that it's unfair to female athletes?

Does she say that it's unfair on trans athletes?


I think she is more an authority on the subject than you or I.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Does she say that she doesn't want to compete with trans athletes or not?

Does she say that it's unfair to female athletes?

Does she say that it's unfair on trans athletes?


I think she is more an authority on the subject than you or I.

---

She's being pretty clear? Biological advantages affect fairness. She wants fairness. She doesn't want any witch hubts but she's very clear fairness is paramount.

She's saying the leadership of sport has allowed a pretty rotten set of circumstances to put a number of people in the crosshairs...

It's an excellent and very clear statement.