The Trans Rights Debate

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Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

I struggle why this issue is being made so complex, if someone needs to change sex, it should be their right and they should be supported throughout their journey. Once the journey is complete their documentation should read what their new sex is. However until it is complete, and this imho is a safeguard to those who would abuse the system for their own wants, ie Isla Bryson. Then they will have to continue as that sex until completion of their transformation.

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You can't change sex. You can have surgery to present more typically in alignment with your chosen gender identity, but you cannot change sex. It is immutable. That is the ultimate conclusion of this judgment. Trans people are still protected as trans people under the law, but trans women are not protected as women.

What we need now is a revision of trans rights to protect trans people in public spaces, because the assumption that trans women are women and trans men are men has meant that actual protective legislation has been sidelined by these mantras. Fully medically transitioned trans women are not equipped to present the same threat to biological women as intact males are, and the law should reflect that.

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Originally Posted by 500miles

You can't change sex. You can have surgery to present more typically in alignment with your chosen gender identity, but you cannot change sex. It is immutable. That is the ultimate conclusion of this judgment. Trans people are still protected as trans people under the law, but trans women are not protected as women.

What we need now is a revision of trans rights to protect trans people in public spaces, because the assumption that trans women are women and trans men are men has meant that actual protective legislation has been sidelined by these mantras. Fully medically transitioned trans women are not equipped to present the same threat to biological women as intact males are, and the law should reflect that.

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More eloquently explained than my post, but the point remains, once a person has surgery and aligned physically then they are imho that gender/sex and should be treated so. Up until then imho they should remain as their given birth sex to stop the charlatans abusing the system.

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Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

More eloquently explained than my post, but the point remains, once a person has surgery and aligned physically then they are imho that gender/sex and should be treated so. Up until then imho they should remain as their given birth sex to stop the charlatans abusing the system.

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I think the vast majority will agree and we Will likely see play out what you describe. This issue only ended up in court this week as the Scottish Government had changed to law to say a trans woman would count towards a gender balanced public sector board. So we could have had the crazy situation of having a public board of 6 people and all born male and it meeting the requirement of being gender balanced, none of them ever having had a period, a pregnancy or having gone through the menopause or any woman only experiences. It's an extreme example I know but that was the reality of the change they wanted to introduce. It's also hopefully puts an end to self ID in the public sector and fully intact males like Dr Upton of NHS Fife being empowered to use the female only spaces and woman being called transphobic just for sticking up for their rights by law.

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Originally Posted by 500miles

You can't change sex. You can have surgery to present more typically in alignment with your chosen gender identity, but you cannot change sex. It is immutable. That is the ultimate conclusion of this judgment. Trans people are still protected as trans people under the law, but trans women are not protected as women.

What we need now is a revision of trans rights to protect trans people in public spaces, because the assumption that trans women are women and trans men are men has meant that actual protective legislation has been sidelined by these mantras. Fully medically transitioned trans women are not equipped to present the same threat to biological women as intact males are, and the law should reflect that.

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Agree with most of that, particularly the bit in bold.

My fear (echoed by colleagues in the community and allied groups) is that this week's judgement may further marginalise an already marginalised group. That may be an unintended consequence, but there also those who might use it deliberately.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Agree with most of that, particularly the bit in bold.

My fear (echoed by colleagues in the community and allied groups) is that this week's judgement may further marginalise an already marginalised group. That may be an unintended consequence, but there also those who might use it deliberately.

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This isn't a one side bad situation. We've had 2 sides of extremists screaming at each other, and the people that could back up (or veil in some cases) thier argument with material, measurable reality have won.

You don't get to tell people to ignore the evidence of their eyes and ears without backlash, and that is what we will live through for a period.

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Originally Posted by 500miles

This isn't a one side bad situation. We've had 2 sides of extremists screaming at each other, and the people that could back up (or veil in some cases) thier argument with material, measurable reality have won.

You don't get to tell people to ignore the evidence of their eyes and ears without backlash, and that is what we will live through for a period.

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Yeah, the judge was clear on that.

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Originally Posted by 500miles

This isn't a one side bad situation. We've had 2 sides of extremists screaming at each other, and the people that could back up (or veil in some cases) thier argument with material, measurable reality have won.

You don't get to tell people to ignore the evidence of their eyes and ears without backlash, and that is what we will live through for a period.

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People have wanted to say this side means this or that. I've found the extremes are nuts. The Maggie Chapmans 5 year olds should be OK to medically transition and trans women are literally women, the other side saying grow up son your a man in a dress. I think the vast majority now say we would like trans and females to get as many freedoms as possible until one freedom affects another group

I'm i a pub right now with 2 trannys who both look like bernard manning and les dawson, both are still using the ladies toilets and nobody is complaining.

For 99.9% of the country nothing will change and we wont notice any difference.

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Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs

I'm i a pub right now with 2 trannys who both look like bernard manning and les dawson, both are still using the ladies toilets and nobody is complaining.

For 99.9% of the country nothing will change and we wont notice any difference.

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I seem to recall meeting one of your tranny mates in Tenerife. Or maybe I'm getting my dressers crossed?

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

I seem to recall meeting one of your tranny mates in Tenerife. Or maybe I'm getting my dressers crossed?

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That might have been BoltonHibs :greengrin, dont know any in Tenerife, but Blackpool has more than its fair share. :greengrin

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-civil-servant



Someone has ****ed up! #justsaying

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

This is what the end game of trans ideology looks; an all male final of a woman's pool championship. The woman's pool event wouldn't ordinarily have grabbed the headlines, for one curious detail: this year, there were no women in the final. It was played between two men.

Men do still have some biological advantages. These differences - though hotly disputed by delusional trans activists - are obvious to anyone with eyes, men have longer reach, are usually taller making it easier for men to make shots with greater power and speed.

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Men also don’t get pregnant and are typically not the parent who puts career on the back burner to look after children - so take away the physical aspect and you still have a significant advantage as an man in terms of practice hours and playing time, not to mention that in heavily male dominated sports like darts and snooker, you’re far more likely to have started younger than a female in the same sport.

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Originally Posted by matty_f

Men also don’t get pregnant and are typically not the parent who puts career on the back burner to look after children - so take away the physical aspect and you still have a significant advantage as an man in terms of practice hours and playing time, not to mention that in heavily male dominated sports like darts and snooker, you’re far more likely to have started younger than a female in the same sport.

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Totally, The UK Ultimate Pool Woman's final wouldn't have grabbed the headlines, except for one curious detail, this year there were no women in the final. It was played between two men, who no doubt had their £5 Gender Recognition Certificates but this doesn't make them women, former Olympic swimmer Sharon Davis described it as 'bloody ridiculous and grossly wrong in every way.

While it's true that, in pool, the difference between men and women might not be as pronounced as other, more physically demanding sports, men do still have biological advantages. These differences though hotly disputed by delusional trans activists are obvious to anyone with eyes. Males are generally taller have longer reach making it easier for men to make shots with greater power and speed. This to me is what the trans end game looks like, Men dominating Woman's sports, with no one willing to admit that biological sex matters

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

This is what the end game of trans ideology looks; an all male final of a woman's pool championship. The woman's pool event wouldn't ordinarily have grabbed the headlines, for one curious detail: this year, there were no women in the final. It was played between two men.

Men do still have some biological advantages. These differences - though hotly disputed by delusional trans activists - are obvious to anyone with eyes, men have longer reach, are usually taller making it easier for men to make shots with greater power and speed.

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What about a tall woman? She has an advantage.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc...d-57853385.amp

The lesbians who feel pressured to have sex and relationships with trans women

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Looks an absolute non issue to me. If you don’t want to **** someone, don’t **** them.

I’m sure the opposite is more true. Bloke takes a trans woman home thinking they are a biological female. Finds out later on that night that they have a *****. Decides it’s not for him and he goes home.

No drama.

J

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

In reality, rather than as a point of law, when it comes to toileting would anyone know? They might suspect but it would be a pretty terrible person that demanded someone lowered their trousers to prove it.

Areas such as open changing rooms or certain occupations (I'm thinking the Rape Crisis Scotland debacle) might be more problematic but when it comes to women's toilets in which individual cubicles are the norm I can't imagine it being as big an issue in real life as it apparently is on social media.

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This. We all need to bring some reality and perspective to the conversation. Not 1 in a million made up hysteria.

J

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Originally Posted by Bristolhibby

This. We all need to bring some reality and perspective to the conversation. Not 1 in a million made up hysteria.

J

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I think in time toilets will just be one per room with cubicles with shared wash facilities done away with.


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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Just a question, can a trans man now legally access "women only" spaces because the Supreme Court has deemed them to be legally women? So a man can say he's trans (even though he's not) and get into women only spaces?

Is that the worst case scenario??

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Correct. And if I was a militant Trans Activist that’s exactly what I’d do.

Full beard, tats, top surgery. Walk into a woman’s changing room get naked. Then stick my board shorts on and walk to the pool.

If it’s good for the goose it’s good for the gander.

Like I’ve said, most Trans people just want to get on with their lives having been dealt the cards of being born in the wrong body. It must be horrible to not feel and be your self.

J

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I think in time toilets will just be one per room with cubicles with shared wash facilities done away with.


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That seems the obvious answer.

Changing rooms and tape crisis centers seem to be the massive thorn in the sides of sensible debate.

You could have (like I’ve used in many swimming pools), multiple cubicles that people just go into. When I shower there I just keep my trunks on.

I’m sure that will be the norm. Not sure how it would work in gyms, guess you could have shower cubicles too.

J

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Originally Posted by Bristolhibby

What about a tall woman? She has an advantage.

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Don't you think a young male who will have male snooker and pool role models to look up to and access to what is effectively a very male dominated environment has an advantage? A young male will have access to male coaches as well while the young female will likely have access to no female coaches and has no role models. It's a very male dominated sport so how do you think a woman would feel if she worked her way up to the top in the women's category only to find a man has either taken her space in a tournament so she can't compete at all or beaten her to a title etc. in a woman only category?

Should she just get on with it?

You don't think there is an element some men basically saying tough luck women, what you feel and believe here doesn't matter just accept men can play in your sport and the woman only category and just get on with it?

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Originally Posted by Bristolhibby

Not sure how it would work in gyms, guess you could have shower cubicles too.

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Lpt of years ago now but the Commie Pool used to have shower cubicles in the male changing rooms. I don't think there are shower cubicles now, though I might have missed them.

Quite a lot of men saying they don't think it's an issue so women should get on with it too. Personally I think the only voice that matters is females, if they want female only situations they should have them, whether sports, counselling, hostels or changing rooms.

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Originally Posted by Bristolhibby

What about a tall woman? She has an advantage.

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That's a ridiculous comparison. Periods is a much under valued issue in sports and working life. Many females are incapacitated one week in four. Add in pregnancy can take an enormous toll on a body. It isn't just height females muscle mass and bone density is completely different as is stamina, hence less sets in tennis.

It's hard for females to get the opportunities in sports that males get, taking away more and saying get on with it is terrible misogyny

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Quite a lot of men saying they don't think it's an issue so women should get on with it too. Personally I think the only voice that matters is females, if they want female only situations they should have them, whether sports, counselling, hostels or changing rooms.

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So the trans community, both men and women, aren't allowed a voice. Take a look at the huge protests across the whole of the UK against the court ruling!

Speaking to LBC, Melanie Field, an independent adviser on equality and human rights, who oversaw the Equality Act's drafting and passage through Westminster in 2010, has called for calm but warned this recent decision could be at odds with the act’s original goals.

She told LBC’s Paul Brand the legislation was meant to give transgender people with gender recognition certificates (GRCs) the same legal status as so-called “biological” men or women.

She said it was the “very clear” goal of the act that trans women with GRCs would be seen as women in the eyes of the law.

This will no longer be the case following the Supreme Court ruling.

Ms Field said: “So we're working in the context of that government policy and parliamentary intent that the gender recognition certificate should have the effect of changing a person's sex under sex discrimination law.

So that was the basis on which we drafted the Equality Act 2010. And there are a number of exceptions in there that recognise the importance of biological sex in the provision of, for example, single sex services.

“And we were very careful to draft those provisions in a way that they would enable trans people to be treated differently in relation to those services, regardless of whether or not they had a gender recognition certificate.

“So my worry is that this Supreme Court judgement, which is sought to provide Clarity in a very sort of noisy and confused context, by applying a different interpretation to those provisions may mean that the act doesn't work in the way that was intended.”

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Quite a lot of men saying they don't think it's an issue so women should get on with it too. Personally I think the only voice that matters is females, if they want female only situations they should have them, whether sports, counselling, hostels or changing rooms.

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I think we are heading to everyone having their own space.
As for sports, trans women should not be competing with biological women. I’m supportive of every other right but this is both a safety and fairness issue.


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It seems (on here at least) the general consensus is trans-women shouldn't compete with biological women in any sport.
I wonder what the view is of trans-men competing with biological women in sport is?

I do start to think a lot of onlookers/commentators (myself included) are getting hung up on very small points that will absolutely matter to some, but are not an issue for the wider trans or CIS community.
If we're looking at 0.5% of the population identifying as trans (last census), how many of that 0.5% are playing any sport at a level where being biologically male or female is gaining a significant advantage. At a guess, maybe 0.005%?
As mentioned before, I know two trans-guys (one quite closely), he's to all intents & purposes a regular guy and I'd doubt the vast majority of the public could identify him as female if they didn't know, but lately he's become quite introverted and it's because of the pile-on he receives on social media (mainly) from folk (again, maybe people like me) who get involved on the online commentary focusing on the points that affect a relative tiny percentage of trans persons and the wider general public.

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Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales

It seems (on here at least) the general consensus is trans-women shouldn't compete with biological women in any sport.
I wonder what the view is of trans-men competing with biological women in sport is?

I do start to think a lot of onlookers/commentators (myself included) are getting hung up on very small points that will absolutely matter to some, but are not an issue for the wider trans or CIS community.

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Trans men can't medically transition and compete in women's sport because they'd be caught up in banned substances rules. Trans men could probably have provisions made in the mens/ open category.

As to wider arguements, legislating in spite of 99% people's measurable and definable reality to accommodate a tiny minority belief system is absolutely mental.

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Originally Posted by 500miles

to accommodate a tiny minority belief system is absolutely mental.

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Alternatively, looking after vulnerable minorities is one mark of a civilised society, even if one of those minorities includes ONLY five hundred thousand people.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

So the trans community, both men and women, aren't allowed a voice. Take a look at the huge protests across the whole of the UK against the court ruling!

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They should get a voice and have every right they can unless that takes away from someone else's right, ie single sex situations. I remember previously you said trans women should be able to compete in female sports, even defending a trans mma fighter. I think we'll look back in years to come how ridiculous it was.