They have become those that they hateQuote:
Originally Posted by DaveF
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They have become those that they hateQuote:
Originally Posted by DaveF
Spot on and the rest of the world shuts their curtainsQuote:
Originally Posted by DaveF
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c989rl23zzno
Two more hostage bodies recovered. Hard to imagine more than a handful are still alive now.
Its been said many times before but its mad how the Isrealies who were taken are called hostages yet that those that are taken by the Isrealies are called prisoners (and in much greater numbers)....Some going into camps others just vanishing never to be seen again...Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibspur
AbsolutelyQuote:
Originally Posted by Dalianwanda
I am not defending Israel but Hamas did take hostages in the real sense of the word, they took woman and children and even disabled children as hostages. One autistic girl they murdered as she was apparently too much hassle to look after. Has Israel done the same? I don't know the profile of the people Israel has taken but I suspect will be men with links to Hamas and terrorism, not a 70 and 72 years old married couple. As I say not defending Israel for their mass killing of Palestine people but offering an explanation for the different terminology used.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalianwanda
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/...0-palestinians
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/29/...available-swap
The question is, what is the difference between an Israeli hostage and a Palestinian prisoner?
Absolutely nothing, the Palestinian prisoners have, in the main, had no trial and are detained for years in appalling conditions.
The Israeli settlements in the west bank are illegal land grabs with the ultimate aim of Palestinian eradication.
I don't see that the terminology used by the media here can be perceived as favouring one side or another. In general, people taken prisoner are held in prisons or detention facilities. Hostages are not. For example, if there's a hijack they're usually held where the hijack takes place as collatoral for the hostage takers. Or as individuals they're taken somewhere hard to find.Quote:
Originally Posted by jamie_1875
In the case of the hostages taken by Hamas they're dispersed around Gaza, frequently underground judging by the testimonies of those released, and often in populated areas where civilian casualties will occur if rescue attempts are made.
I note, incidentally, that yesterday Israel recovered the body of one of the Thai farm workers who got taken on October 7th.
I read recently that Benjamin Netanyahu's brother Yoni was killed while leading the Israeli commando raid to free the hostages at Entebbe airport hijacked by Palestinian (and possibly German?) terrorists in the 1970s.Quote:
Originally Posted by jamie_1875
Think Idi Amin gave the hijackers permission to land in Uganda. It was made into a film starring Charles Bronson, although I'm not sure which part he played.
Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
The hostage taking was a joint 'venture' by the PFLP (Palestine) and RAF* (Germany)
I think the aim was to trade the hostages for multiple prisoners held in Israel and elsewhere.
* The 'Red Army Faction', referred to in the UK as the 'Baader-Meinhof gang'.
So the Freedom Flotilla vessel Madeline, carrying vital aid supplies but more importantly hope for Gaza, was set upon by the rogue genocidal state. Reports of 5 speed boats surrounding the vessel and a white substance sprayed onto the ship from quadcopters, then the activists on board arrested.
This was a ship flying a UK flag.
Whatever your views on Gaza, there's no scandalous injustice here. Nobody seriously thinks a non-military boat is going to be able to sail into a war zone. It's a publicity stunt by Greta Thunberg & co. They will have known fine well what was going to happen and you can see that their videos about being intercepted are pre-recorded. Show's over now and they've achieved what they wanted from it. The aid they were bringing (less than a truckload according to Israel) is reported to be getting unloaded and distributed in Gaza via official channels, so seems a decent enough result for them overall.Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Craig75
Distributed in Gaza via “official” channels? A decent enough result? Highly doubtful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibspur
Perhaps, but the cargo wasn't really the issue. Manufactured shock/keeping Gaza high profile was what they were aiming for so job done. Fair play to them. Personally I've always found Thunberg a bit irritating and the pics of her in her de rigueur Arab keffiyeh in a Titanic-style pose at the bow of the boat are a bit much, but plenty people still seem to lap her up, so each to their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by tamig
Yeah, why aren't the Palestinians using all those prison buildings that haven't been razed to the ground by Israeli bombs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibspur
Why am I not surprised?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibspur
Greta Thunberg on board I see. Thought climate change was her thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Craig75
Does she have to be single issue?Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
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I don’t understand what the labour government are doing when they sanction 2 Israeli ministers, and at the same time continue to supply weapon parts. probably trying to sit on the fence so they can say, “we showed we were against Israel”, when that narrative suits, but can also say “we supported Israel”, when that narrative suits.
Imagine she'd be a bit disgruntled getting deported on a fuel-guzzling passenger jet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Israel have launched attacks on Iran.
Unverified reports saying civilians have been killed, including children.
Targeted Iran nuclear facilities apparentlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Jones28
I can’t be certain but there looks to be an apartment block hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorrie
So they’ve ****ing missed.
Relax. They’ll open an enquiry, again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones28
Yep. That’s why I used the word “apparently”. They’ve taken out a lot more besidesQuote:
Originally Posted by Jones28
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyg0yywr4noQuote:
Originally Posted by Scorrie
Took out the commander of Iran's Revolutionary Guard. Not someone you'd spend much time mourning. He'd have happily bombed the UK out of existence.
It's what comes next in terms of all-out war that's the concern now.
Iran doesn’t have the ability to respond that way. They might send some missiles and drones but it won’t do any real harm.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
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Sounds like both sides have wanted a square go for a long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
Not convinced thats the case Ozy, needs someone more professional than me to be certain but haven't Iran got something like half a million full time soldiers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
There is no way they have the logistic capability to cross over Iraq and Syria to get to Isreal. Only the US has that. And even they would struggle to invade Iran.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones28
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Yes, it comes down to Iran's perceived nuclear threat. Talks with the US over a deal have all but ground to a halt and yesterday the global nuclear watchdog found Iran in breach of its nuclear proliferation agreements. Israel have been monitoring this for months and clearly felt the threat of weaponisation by Iran was too great not to take preventative action.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones28
Most in Israel will support this 100% and while the US claim not to have backed the strikes the fact they did nothing to try and talk Israel out of them and have been evacuating US personnel for days indicates they were very much in the loop.
Israel have never been held to account for its genocide while most countries turned a blind eye including the UK.
Israel government can now do what it wants. I assume they and anybody else won’t have any issue with Iran fighting back as they will have “the right to defend itself”….
This wasn't some random show of might. It's been years in the planning, with Mossad even constructing a secret drone base inside Iran. Whatever anyone's views on Netenyahu's goverment and whether they're prolonging the war in Gaza for political reasons, this strike on Iran is very much about Israel defending itself and will command a lot of support. The breakdown of talks between the US and Iran left Israel feeling they had to act now. Any Israeli government is likely to have acted in a similar fashion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Col2
'The Octopus doctrine' (so named because Iran is seen as the head of the Octopus, with the tentacles representing its proxies in the Middle East...Hezbollah, Hamas, Houtis etc...) is about Israel stepping up its attacks on the head of an octopus which would like to see the Jewish race wiped off the face of the earth.
US effectively confirms it endorses the action, without officially sanctioning it:
US President Donald Trump has urged Iran to make a deal over its nuclear programme, saying he gave Tehran "chance after chance"
The talks between the US and Iran on a deal were about to enter their sixth round on Sunday.
"I told them, in the strongest of words, to “just do it,” but no matter how hard they tried, no matter how close they got, they just couldn’t get it done," Trump writes on Truth Social.
"There has already been great death and destruction, but there is still time to make this slaughter, with the next already planned attacks being even more brutal, come to an end," he says.
"Iran must make a deal, before there is nothing left, and save what was once known as the Iranian Empire. No more death, no more destruction, JUST DO IT, BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE."
They certainly didn't miss. If you read about what they've hit, these were high-precision strikes which have left Iran reeling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jones28
Your last sentence sounds like propaganda. We don’t know this. Just like we assume the jewish race don’t want to wipe the Palestine people of the face of the earth? The Israel government will continue to antagonize especially when they think they have the backing of Trump and the US. Let’s hope this country has nothing to do with it and the upcoming war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibspur
I'm far from an apologist from the Ayatollah, but it's also about spreading chaos among their neighbours as a form of defence and projection.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibspur
Why did they not support the Obama-era deal?
You can't be precise when you're blowing something up. Nothing on the collateral damage has come out yet but there's going to be some casualties. One of the videos I saw looked like a residential street with several floors in a block of flats in pieces.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibspur
Precisions strikes its some Gulf War propagandist crap.
I’m a lot more comfortable with Isreal attacking Iran than the Palestinians.
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some people just want to watch the world burn. : Alfred (2008)
Sorry to bring it around to Ukraine but I feel Russia is behind a lot of this and a strike on Iran, hinders Russia whilst also putting them in a tough position.
In all conflicts I think it’s important to look at who the winners are and I have no doubt that Hamas attacking Israel and the folwoiinh war, helps take the heat of Putin and Russia.
Russia gets drones of Iran, Russia gives Hamas and Hezbollah weapons. They even give North Korea technology, who also now have nuclear weapons. Once the thought of North Korea having nuclear weapons was unthinkable but I read the other day they have 15-20, where the headlines about that?
In essence, I truly believe Putin is behind the whole collapse of the world order in the mast couple of years by enabling Hamas and Hezbollah.
I’m not supporting Israel, far from it but ok the context of world security, I feel safer today knowing that Iran has lost capabilities and the ability to support the Russian war effort.
There will most likely be the usual token calls for de-escalation from the likes of Starmer and much of the international community, but no real condemnation. That's because they acknowledge privately that Israel is doing them a favour with its proactive measures in keeping Tehran's nuclear capabilities in check.Quote:
Originally Posted by Col2
Ending the Obama deal was one of the few things Trump did that made sense. All that deal had really done was to give Iran some breathing space under the pretence of scaling back its nuclear programe. Much of their dismantled capability was simply kept in storage, ready to be re-installed.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tubs
Of course the USA effectively sanctioned this. The vast majority of the current adminstration no doubt have shares in oil firms, which will be skyrocketing today as the price of crude oil soars accordingly.
The current US Government are printing money for themselves at the expense of everyone else - from his tarriff war, to the consequences of outright war, it's only ever been about one thing.
That's nonsense anaw. A government that's just announced risky spending plans to increase growth doesn't want higher oil prices.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibspur
While not an expert, as far as I'm aware, all the IAEA has now are estimates of their capability and no idea of where the stockpiles are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibspur
The only interest the Israel government have is total self interest and to ensure they stay in power and avoid being arrested due to the actions taken in Gaza. In any other country if the respective government was taking action like the genocide in Gaza the people would be on the streets demonstrating that it was not in the name of the people. Except we don’t see any of that. Israel would literally burn down the rest of the world if it felt it helped them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibspur
The Iranians have penetrated the “iron dome” with at least a few missiles, footage of Tel Aviv with plumes of smoke on BBC News just now.
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Almost certainly we will find out soon enough that we were involved in defending Isreal.Quote:
Originally Posted by ErinGoBraghHFC
Iran will exhaust itself over the next couple of days. Israeli’s will keep going until they know Iran has no nuclear programme left. There won’t be any war. Iran doesn’t really have any friends or allies left in the region.
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Really strange thread title for a discussion regarding the ultra aggressive, genocidal, permanently problematic state of Israel.
Shameful that our tax revenues go into supporting they bampots.
You can maybe gather that the thread was created after the initial attacks that triggered the appalling backlash from Netanyahu and co. These threads evolve with time. Bit like the ongoing Trump thread which is an even odder title now.Quote:
Originally Posted by SickBoy32
Russia is/has been desperate for the US to get involved in a a ME conflict since it invaded Ukraine. They know that defending Israel/invading Iran would mean they couldnt support Ukraine militarily or financially.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibs4185
The yanks won't even sell Ukraine patriots nowadays.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haymaker
The US approved the transfer of $30m of weapons today.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tubs
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The US could afford to do both. Whether they would is another matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haymaker
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Since the change of government. And a fair amount of congress still support spending in the Ukraine. A war in the Middle East that America is all in (which is any war involving Israel) suit Putin.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tubs
What I don't think Putin and his friends worldwide thought through was the European (and others) reaction to US disinterest.
They certainly could, especially with the love of "lend/lease" etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
1/4 of Wirtz. Still surprising though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...dda8c3f5ce.png
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Yep clear that having the gimp in the White House has emboldened Israel even more if that was possibleQuote:
Originally Posted by Col2
As someone else has pointed out, Israel is doing the West a favour here. A day of reckonining for the Iranian regime, loathed by most of its people, has been a long time coming. It's at the heart of extremism and terrorism, funding its proxies and making peace in the Middle East impossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBHibees
The belief some seem to have that the Iranian people are going to rise up and create a democratic society supporting the USA and Israel is bizarre. More likely to unite the country against those attacking it.
Thought the west would have recognised bombing the crap out of countries doesn’t usually lead to moving them in directions they want. Are they any more abhorrent than whoever bombed them? The last thing the world needs at present is more violenceQuote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
100% agree. This attack pushes Iran closer to becoming nuclear armed. Really strange timing considering that talks were ongoing with the US. Perhaps Netanyahu felt if those talks came to a positive conclusion then he wouldn’t get another opportunity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop Hibee
My view would be been given the green light by Donald and won’t have a better chance and their reputation can’t really get any worseQuote:
Originally Posted by 18Craig75
I think most people would accept regime change in Iran could be a positive for it's population. There are so many caveats there that it would take a day to list them but broad speaking I don't think many are in thrall to the nutjob Islamists running the show.
A bunch of nutjob Zionists unilaterally doing the regime changing isn't the answer many would put forward though. There is plenty internal agitation in Iran against the leadership already; those agitators aren't going to accept some Israeli and US backed puppet government. There are people old enough to remember how much of a disaster that was last time out.
Spot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop Hibee
Israel is a menace to the region, and indeed the wider world.
They need dealt with, pronto.
Perhaps the West should think about instigating a coup / regime change in Jerusalem. Appreciate this is unlikely, given their Western support and thus the condoning of the Israeli atrocities.
I doubt either regime could be changed just by firing some rockets in. Only ground forces are capable of that and there is zero chance of that. If there is regime change then it will have to be internal. And there is a very good chance of that in Iran.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Boy
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It's not quite as simple as that is it . Israel has been under attack for the entirety of its existence. They had to learn to fight or there wouldn't be an Israel today .Quote:
Originally Posted by SickBoy32
Iran is a fundamentalist dictatorship. Whatever you feel about their current government, Israel is a parliamentary democracy (the only one in the Middle East) and an indispensable strategic ally to the West.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBHibees
There is substantial opposition to Netanyahu in Israel, where there have been plenty demonstrations by those who don't feel that prolonging the conflict remains the most effective way of securing the release of however many hostages remain. What gets less coverage are the demonstrations in Gaza against the Hamas regime responsible for the conflict in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Col2
Do they let the Palestinians they rule over vote?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibspur
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Or perhaps a useful reminder of the fact that this supposed genocide was triggered by a mass terrorist attack involving the slaughter of civilians and the taking of hostages? Terrorists who embed themselves within and below civilian infrastructure, content to increase civilian casualties for propaganda purposes. Hamas knew fine well the consequences of their actions and appear to care not a jot for the people they're purported to 'govern'.Quote:
Originally Posted by SickBoy32
Little wonder they were under attack following the Nakba (round1). Round 2 underway currently.Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveli1875
A lot of good and progressive work had gone into a ‘2 state solution’ in recent decades, however that has all been undone (and more) by the genocidal maniacs in charge of Israel.
Not to mention their ongoing illegal land grabs in contravention of international law.
They need sorted out and brought down a peg or two.
Unfortunately, the UK / US seem to prefer to support this ongoing chaos.
Supposed genocide 😂Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibspur
Just a wee bit of revisionism thereQuote:
Originally Posted by Hibspur
https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-44124396
The conflict between Israel and the Palestinian people is one of the longest-running and most violent disputes in the world. Its origins go back more than a century.
Tensions between the Jewish and Arab populations deepened when the UK agreed in principle to the establishment of a "national home" in Palestine for Jewish people
Jews had historical links to the land, but Palestinian Arabs also had a claim dating back centuries and opposed the move. The British said the rights of Palestinian Arabs already living there had to be protected.
Jewish leaders in Palestine declared an independent state known as Israel hours before British rule ended. Israel was recognised by the UN the following year.
About 750,000 Palestinians fled, or were forced from, their homes on land which became Israel and ended up as refugees.
I could continue, but doubt you will agree that it started with the formation of an Israeli state on land that was always Palestinian.
Edit. I was going to mention the landgrab and murder in the west bank but I was beaten to it.
Neither side will now countenance a two-state solution but it's the Palestinians who have previously walked away from the best chances for peace. Arafat's spurning of the Camp David deal is widely seen as a mistake but it was Abbas who really blew it in 2008 when he rejected Olmert's offer which gave the Palestinians everything they could realistically have hoped for.Quote:
Originally Posted by SickBoy32
To coin a phrase, the Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. And under Hamas an opportunity is no longer even sought.
Not sure the 2 state idea would work anyway. The 2 states would be at war within a couple of years of establishment anyway, the hate is so ingrained.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
I'd argue it's open to question. Questionable whether what's happening in Gaza stacks up alongside (relatively recent) historical genocides in, say, Rwanda, Darfur, Bosnia or the ongoing genocide in Myanwar and how much it feeds into anti-Israel/Zionism sentiment - something that bleeds into broader prejudices against Jews. As pointed out, to use that term to describe the latest war in Gaza serves to deligitimise the actions of one side while legitimising the actions of the terrorist organisation which started the conflict - an organisation which willingly uses civilians as dispensable shields and would happily wipe the Jewish state off the map.Quote:
Originally Posted by SickBoy32
If genocide starts to become a routine descriptor for controversial aspects of conflict where do we stand on Allied bombing of German cities or the dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
How does it do that?Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
Sure it did...Quote:
which started the conflict
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
Genuine question, after world war 2 where were the Jews suppose to go? Was it not the case that they had some historical links also and after the nazi’s the world agreed that they should settle their?
I don’t know the history that well which is why I refrain from commenting on the conflict
Yep, exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns
We felt bad for the Jews after the holocaust, carved out some land for them in the Middle East since they have a tenuous link to the region but it came at a cost of moving on the people who were currently living there.
Since then, the state has land grabbed, intimidated, controlled and ultimately purged the local population from their land, flattened every building, setup 'safe zones', starved anyone left of basic resources, freedom of movement and killed thousands upon thousands of civilians.
The retaliation to that from Hamas was awful, but this sort of thing is like how to create a terrorist group 101. Step 1, persecute innocent people, step 2 the mourned become fuel for revenge...
It's also hugely ironic that there are calls to remove a religious group from a position of power in Iran when Israel is literally a country for a religion. Huge amounts of hypocrisy.
Ideally, neither Islam nor Judaism (nor any religion or religious group) should have as much power. Having them vie for power in the same part of the world is recipe for a right ****-show, as we're seeing.
The decision to create the state of Israel isn't something that we can ever take back, but they need to settle down and learn to co-exist with their neighbours. Right now, they're behaving a bit like a certain European state that claimed to be the holy successors of a past empire.
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Who’s the European state?Quote:
Originally Posted by DinkyTwo
The actions that started the conflict, if you look back in history, was the enforcement of an Israeli state on most of what was Palestine.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
Never thought I would agree 100% with Tucker Carlson
https://x.com/tuckercarlson/status/1...B9IiX9O1uErJgw
Mark Levin was at the White House today, lobbying for war with Iran. To be clear, Levin has no plans to fight in this or any other war. He’s demanding that American troops do it. We need to stop Iran from building nuclear weapons, he and likeminded ideologues in Washington are now arguing. They’re just weeks away.
If this sounds familiar, it's because the same people have been making the same claim since at least the 1990s. It’s a lie. In fact, there is zero credible intelligence that suggests Iran is anywhere near building a bomb, or has plans to. None. Anyone who claims otherwise is ignorant or dishonest. If the US government knew Iran was weeks from possessing a nuclear weapon, we’d be at war already.
Iran knows this, which is why they aren’t building one. Iran also knows it’s unwise to give up its weapons program entirely. Muammar Gaddafi tried that and wound up sodomized with a bayonet. As soon as Gaddafi disarmed, NATO killed him. Iran’s leaders saw that happen. They learned the obvious lesson.
So why is Mark Levin once again hyperventilating about weapons of mass destruction? To distract you from the real goal, which is regime change — young Americans heading back to the Middle East to topple yet another government. Virtually no one will say this out loud. America’s record of overthrowing foreign leaders is so embarrassingly counterproductive that regime change has become a synonym for disaster. Officially, no one supports it. So instead of telling the truth about their motives, they manufacture hysteria: “A country like Iran can never have the bomb! They’ll nuke Los Angeles! We have to act now!”
They don’t really mean this, and you can tell they don’t by what they omit. At least two of Iran’s neighbors — both Islamic nations — already have nuclear weapons. That fact should scare the hell out of Mark Levin. Yet for some reason he never mentions it. How come? Because it’s not the weapons he hates. It’s the ideology of the Iranian government, which is why he’s lobbying to overthrow it.
It goes without saying that there are very few Trump voters who’d support a regime change war in Iran. Donald Trump has argued loudly against reckless lunacy like this. Trump ran for president as a peace candidate. That’s what made him different from conventional Republicans. It’s why he won. A war with Iran would amount to a profound betrayal of his supporters. It would end his presidency. That may explain why so many of Trump’s enemies are advocating for it.
And then there’s the question of the war itself. Iran may not have nukes, but it has a fearsome arsenal of ballistic missiles, many of which are aimed at US military installations in the Gulf, as well as at our allies and at critical energy infrastructure. The first week of a war with Iran could easily kill thousands of Americans. It could also collapse our economy, as surging oil prices trigger unmanageable inflation. Consider the effects of $30 gasoline.
But the second week of the war could be even worse. Iran isn’t Iraq or Libya, or even North Korea. While it’s often described as a rogue state, Iran has powerful allies. It’s now part of a global bloc called BRICS, which represents the majority of the world’s landmass, population, economy and military power. Iran has extensive military ties with Russia. It sells the overwhelming majority of its oil exports to China. Iran isn’t alone. An attack on Iran could very easily become a world war. We’d lose.
None of these are far fetched predictions. Most of them comport with the Pentagon’s own estimates: many Americans would die during a war with Iran. People like Mark Levin don’t seem to care about this. It’s not relevant to them. Instead they insist that Iran give up all uranium enrichment, regardless of its purpose. They know perfectly well that Iran will never accept that demand. They’ll fight first. And of course that’s the whole point of pushing for it: to box the Trump administration into a regime change war in Iran.
“The one thing that people like Mark Levin don’t want is a peaceful solution to the problem of Iran, despite the obvious benefits to the United States. They denounce anyone who advocates for a deal as a traitor and a bigot. They tell us with a straight face that Long Island native Steve Witkoff is a secret tool of Islamic monarchies. They’ll say or do whatever it takes. They have no limits. These are scary people. Pray that Donald Trump ignores them”
He's wrong about having allies. If anything, Russia's probably happy Israel is helping to normalise unilateral force.
The most vociferous Jewish people I know are all American. Maybe Utah or Arizona could take them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibs4185
Only joking.
From a purely historical point of view, Israel's ancient claim to the land trumps the Palestinian claim by several hundred years. The movement to create a national home for the Jewish people in that part of the world goes back to the end of the First World War and the fall of the Ottoman Empire, but modern day Israel wasn't established until post-World War Two. The land had long been contested by Jews and Arabs and its division was badly handled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibs4185
There's a first-class BBC documentary series called The Fifty Years War: Israel and the Arabs (still available on iplayer I think) which charts the conflict from 1948-1998.
Personally I'm inclined to agree with the late, great Jewish American writer Harlan Ellison who had this to say:
"Here’s my opinion: all of you guys out there in the Middle East are out of the same melting pot, and you’re all as crazy as a butterfly on absinthe. I don’t know whether you’re all Canaanites at the base, or you’re all Jews at the base, or outa the Land of Nod, or whatever the hell you were at the git-go—Semites or what not—but you’ve been fighting there now for something like 8,000 years! You’ve never had five minutes of quiet and peace; you’re forever killing each other over the Holy Grail, or whatever the hell it is, and the rest of the world has had to suffer with this. Great things have come out of the Middle East, but stupidity seems to be your chief export—stupidity and violence are your cash crops, all you.”
“My solution to the problem in the Middle East is this: We erect a wall 26 miles high around the entire Middle East. That’s Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Israel, Egypt, all of you—the whole bunch of you—26 miles high with one door, like a regular door in the front of a house. And every 10 years, we will open the door and look inside. If you’re still fighting, we close the door. Loz ze gein, you should live and be well—go and fight and kill yourselves. But if we peek inside and it’s safe, if it’s nice, if you’re not fighting, and you’ve got peace and quiet, you can come out and play with the rest of us like human people."
Genocidal fanatics stage a raid on a neighbouring country they despise, taking out as many of its citizens as they can, then claim their neighbours are the genocidal ones when they come to hunt them down. Other people buy into this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato
That would be my take on it.
That's certainly a take.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibspur
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"Come to hunt them down" seems to be a blunt, broad term there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibspur
There are genocidal maniacs on both sides of that situation. The Palastinians have Hamas who are fanatics and the Israelis have a fundamental element whose religious book warrants genocide and gives instructions from their God to do so.
They are both sick in the head.
The Irish situation started to seem more resolvable once terms like "men of violence" started to be used. The term would be useful here but I understand it doesn't suit either sides agenda or those who seek to profit from it.
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...fending-israel
UK jets heading to the region.
Democratic governments and dictatorships appear a bit more blurred given recent eventsQuote:
Originally Posted by Hibspur
Supposed genocide ffsQuote:
Originally Posted by Hibspur
Not sure if that's a serious question, but they no longer exist. The allies defeated them and their plans of expansionism to take over Europe in WW2Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibs4185
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As well as the excellent BBC series mentioned the Netflix documentary Inside The Mossad goes deep into exactly that steely determination to fend off threats to Israel's statehood. In addition the pursuit of Nazis, particularly thee way they brought Adolf Eichmann to justice, is compelling stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveli1875
The biggest threat to Israeli statehood are the genocidal extremists leading Israel at present.Quote:
Originally Posted by He's here!
Iranians starting to flee Tehran today.
https://edition.cnn.com/2025/06/15/m...i-strikes-intl
Guess without the protection of an 'iron dome', state of the art bomb shelters and warning systems, safest thing to do is just leave.
Quote:
Iranian experts have said that by attacking residential areas in Iran, Israel has “crossed the Rubicon” – or passed the point of no return – and is inviting attacks of the same kind from Tehran.
“We don’t support the Iranian regime, but we are against Israel attacking residential areas and civilians,” said an older male Tehran resident. “If Israel is against Iran’s nuclear program and military capabilities, they should target those areas and not create another situation like what is happening in Gaza.”
...
Unlike Israel, Iran’s capital Tehran doesn’t have modern bomb shelters, so the city must make use of tunnels, basements or older shelters used in the Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s – the last time the country faced such a grave national emergency.
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Aye. Cheers, Israel. Farage, Le Pen, etc. must be licking their lips at the idea of more refugees they can kick up **** about.Quote:
Originally Posted by DinkyTwo
From the New York Times:Quote:
Originally Posted by DinkyTwo
As criticism within Iran of the regime’s handling of the crisis begins to surface, it is likely to find itself under pressure to explain its inability to defend the nation from Israel’s assault, despite the vast sums it claims to have spent upgrading the Iranian military.
Private text messages shared with The New York Times reveal that some Iranian officials are questioning why Iran’s air defences have not been more effective in repelling Israel’s attacks, which hit its arsenal of ballistic missiles and assassinated senior figures in Tehran’s military chain of command.