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Ozy's post suggested if they hadn't used EBTs they would have been easily beatable back then, much as they are now. That's not true. Even without the EBTs they would have been miles ahead of us. They cheated to win their two horse race with Celtic.Quote:
Originally Posted by lapsedhibee
No! No! No! The priority is NOT what you think! If even 1 X Hibs fan is disgruntled because they paid money to watch their team for 10 years try to win, while another team cheated sneakily & won most of the honours because of that cheating, ( & Dinnae come back wi any nonsense please, they had players so far out of reach of ALL our league, because they paid them EBTs, but got caught because of SIDE LETTERS) so please go back in your box because there is A LOT more than 1 disgruntled fan resentful at having been cheated for 10 years, who will not come close to closure until the right thing is done here. & your references earlier to celtic blogs & nonsense earlier is shameful! Personally I think of only Hibs & the damage done to Hibs here. I do not think I am alone in that! But you crack on with your agenda & brand folk at odds with YOUR views why don't you.Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
I have no agenda. I'd love the see the titles gone. I'd love to see the whole club gone. It's not that simple though and as I have already said I posted in defence of the club reps.Quote:
Originally Posted by majorhibs
I'll respect your opinion though, no need for you to get back in your box. :greengrin
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Originally Posted by marinello59
This is not relevant. Other clubs have been thrown out of competitions for fielding an ineligible player, whether or not that gave them an advantage.
Rangers have defended use of EBTs because they say other clubs could have used them. That's highly debatable.
Failure to declare their use of EBTs (i.e. The side letters) is not debatable. They clearly hid them from the SFA / SPL. This is against the rules and therefore those players were ineligible, no?
Well said Sir. Loads of ifs, whats ans mibbes but they cheated, pure and simple and should be punishedQuote:
Originally Posted by majorhibs
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As I said a few posts ago, we live in an era were we can retrospectively claim back all sorts of finance from banks and insurance companies who added on little extras many, many years ago. We as fans, in good faith, bought season tickets, cup tickets, match day programmes, snacks, drinks and merchandising in the hope that we could compete on the field fairly. It was rigged and unfair on all levels. Fans should now have a mechanism put in place to ensure a) these titles won by Rangers are deemed null and void or b) claim back the monies (hard earned cash) through mis-selling of a fixed and rigged product of which so many were complicit in conning fans.
Selling snake oil, has many medicinal properties. Only $20 a bottle!
First post,long time lurker. I was an IFA for many years. We wouldn't touch EBT's as we always felt they were likely to be questioned and HMRC wouldn't be clear on whether they were acceptable. What they did make clear was that they could not be for a particular individual and that payments to the trust could not be by regular instalments. The side letters meant that they would fail HMRC's rules from day one. There can be no dispute that they failed the SFA's own rules despite Sandy Bryson's imperfectly registered nonsense.When others say that other clubs had EBT's do they know how they were run? The only other club that I know to have an EBT was Celtic and they cancelled it and settled with HMRC.There may have been others in Scotland but the point is that Rangers EBT's were never correctly operated and in David Murrays and Alec McLeish own words allowed them to sign players they would not have been able to otherwise. When Rangers played Hibs at Easter Road , I think in 2003,to win the league, everyone of their players and manager was on an EBT.
Twice Rangers denied having side letters when asked by the SFA and they only came to light when the Metropolitan police were investigating the transfer of Boumsong.Why would they deny there existence if they did not know they were illegal from a tax aspect and from the SFA rules.
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Originally Posted by marinello59
Side letters not declared to the SFA, which would indicate Rangers themselves had a fair inkling they were breaking rules.
And still silence from Hibs.Quote:
Originally Posted by HIGHLANDLEITHER
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Whilst we have 13,000 season ticket holders the Hibs board will have no interest in any of this. There will be no statements, no standpoint and no sporting integrity.
As long as the football club chairmen are getting your money they assume you're happy and if you think they give a 5hit what you think then you're sadly deluded.
If we had struggled on the park over the past couple of seasons and we were now playing in front of 5000 every week, Petrie would be all over this.
That is why I'm conflicted over this. There is so much that the Hibs board are doing that is good and deserving of support right now, but this silence and inaction is maddening. It is deeply disrespectful towards those of us who dug deep to watch a rigged contest for so many years.
The silence of the fans reps makes a mockery of their position. It was an idea that I liked but I think poor Tracey has been hung out to dry here.
Needless to say, I think most of the blame lies at the feet of our mischievous moustachioed friend, who I think is in it up to his neck as a result of the 5-way agreement etc.
Again, I'm not defending Rangers. I'm giving possible reasons why Hibs have not released a statement. None of this is the fans reps fault, demanding they come on here to explain themselves is unfair. They have done what was asked of them and taken it to the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keekaboo
I feel quite sorry for Tracey on this matter. She must've been told by the board that a statement was going to be released and then for whatever reason it wasn't. I'm assuming that she has now been told not to say anymore on the subject. It seems she has been hung out to dry by the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
This is the reason that fans reps don't really work imo.
Demanding the fans reps influence the board to make the sort of statement we as fans (well the vast majority) would make would be unfair. Feeding back if the board are taking any sort of position on this at all is hardly unfair though?Quote:
Originally Posted by marinello59
I think this is the likely scenario.Quote:
Originally Posted by lord bunberry
The directors badge can mean the rep is stuck in the middle. The alternative is to break ranks and share what you know about the subject with the fans regardless.
Fans issues are the only reason they're on the board but probably wouldn't be afterwards!
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And what statement would the vast majority of fans make and how have you ascertained it ?
This is obviously a delicate subject, I am interested as to what you think Hibs should do? What if there has been "off the record" chats between the other clubs (in the league) and there is little or no support for cranking up the case against TRFC do you believe HFC should go it alone?Quote:
Originally Posted by Smartie
Maybe, just maybe, HFC & CFC take the view that this is not finished but you must take the other clubs with you in order to get the job done properly and how many of the others would be up for that?
Messy situation that the authorities should have dealt with
She has absolutely been hung out to dry.Quote:
Originally Posted by lord bunberry
If at the board meeting the board's agreed position was "Petrie's in this up to his neck, we heard the severe and real threats that Sevconians made against Raith Rovers a few years ago and have no desire to see ER being burned down. We have £££££££ in the bank from our fans therefore we are not going to rock the boat right now thank you very much," then Tracey would have kept quiet and not come on here saying a statement was to be made. Clearly that is not what was decided at the board meeting so Tracey was within her rights to come on here and tell us a statement was likely to be made.
An about-turn somewhere has clearly been made which clearly suits the board's agenda, but it makes Tracey look daft and makes us all wonder whether or not there is any point in having fans reps at all.
I think that Hibs (as a club who led the way with cutting their cloth and living within their means) should make a statement backing demands for an inquiry into Scottish football governance and whether our current authorities are fit for purpose. I think they should loudly question whether or not this has been the case over the past couple of decades.Quote:
Originally Posted by hibeerealist
I think they should demand that this be rigorous, but that rather than being a witch-hunt, we should be prepared to acknowledge and possibly even forgive, for the good of our game.
I don't think they should demand title-stripping, I think they should emphasise that we need confidence that our game is clean and that rules will be enforced on all teams equally so that we can all "move on".
How about this...Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient hibee
"The position of Hibernian Football Club is that Sporting Integrity is essential within Football. When rules are broken, the punishment has to be the same, and seen to be the same, no matter which club is guilty of breaking those rules. It is completely unacceptable that the rules of football should be applied in a different way to different clubs, otherwise there is no Integrity
It is an incontrovertible fact that if one club has been ejected from a competition for a simple Administrative Error in regard to player registrations, as happened to Albion Rovers, Spartans and others, then another club that knowingly and wilfully withheld information regarding player registrations, must also be punished to the same extent, regardless of the size or reputation of that club.
It is a known fact that Rangers Football Club withheld that type of information over a number of years, and representatives of that club, when questioned, denied doing so. As this information was not known outside that particular football club at the time of the 'offences', it could not be dealt with immediately in regards to expulsion from the competitions in which they invalidly participated. However, that does not mean that an equivalent punishment cannot be made retrospectively, in this instance any titles won by that club in competitions in which it was competing whilst (knowingly) breaking the rules must be stripped from that club.
Hibernian Football Club also wholeheartedly supports the idea of a truly independent investigation into the SFA and SPL/SPFL to establish what was known of those rule breaches, when and by whom. Only then can we be confident that all clubs are operating within a level playing field, an absolute essential for our game"
Sounds great just put Rod's name at the bottom and fire it out there I am sure he wont mind. :greengrinQuote:
Originally Posted by Keekaboo
:aok: In line with my thinking all throughout this saga, not much has happened recently to change my view.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keekaboo
I am beginning to flag a bit on this one sadly as I think the clubs who are signed up to the 5 way agreement and the officials generally who are party to the cover up are intending to close ranks and face any criticism down.
Our clubs position on sporting integrity was put out there by RP and when we were advised the club was formalising a position and would be putting a statement out there I don't think anyone is being unreasonable by asking what has happened to it. Once we know the position on that we can each decide if we believe the club has sent the right message or not and if our own view of justice has been served, or if the fans of Scottish football have been played by those who run it, again.
When the last Working Together meeting was held the Board Meeting had taken place that morning. I'm sure I wasn't the only one who had contacted the fans reps ahead of the board meeting to ask them to raise the Rangers position following the HMRC verdict at the Board Meeting which it duly was.
At the WT meeting it was confirmed (not by the 2 fans reps) the situation had been discussed and that a statement would be made. We were due to play at Ibrox at the weekend and it was felt the club statement would be made before then. Having attended the Board Meeting and the WT meeting where this statement of intent was made it is not surprising that Tracey commented publically as she did.
I have no idea what changed between the WT meeting and the visit to Ibrox but clearly something did. The usual claims on here of "it must be Petrie's doing" don't add up. He would have chaired the meeting and even if he didn't agree to the statement the fact that at least 3 people who were at the Board Meeting felt comfortable that one was going to be made suggests he had to be onside with that course of action. As I said I have no idea what has changed but I'd guess, given the complete silence that it is on legal advice. I would be stunned if the club were to issue a statement which could / would be construed as criticising another club, (ignore the OldCo / NewCo argument for now), accusing them of cheating, criticising the governing body for the sport, calling into question a decision by Lord Nimmo Smith and 2 QC's without first seeking legal advise. If having done that, the advice they received was to shut up then that's what they would have done. It may also be the reason why Tracey has gone completely silent on the matter.
I agree with those that think Tracey has been hung out to dry here and that some follow up response should have been made. If my feeling that it's legal advice which is preventing a statement then she should have been provided with something to close this off even if it was simply something like "that for reasons I cannot go into there will be no statement by the club and I cannot discuss it any further".
I of course may be miles off the Mark with this theory.
If only.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Keekaboo
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Maybe the club has been 'gagged' by the SFA and/or SPFL pending their investigation or the judicial review?
By gagged I mean the club's that haven't said anything have been asked not to say anything publicly until these things are complete.
Great first post and echo's my own thoughts on this sordid affair - a sordid affair that's 100% the responsibility of the Hun and no-one else !. They cheated - they know it and so does everyone else - including their own fans. And all that's happened since they were caught is both the club and it's fans have embarked on a long, systematic course of bullying, threatening and intimidation and so far it's worked !. Scottish Football must NOT give in to them any longer and as the GFA are bent/incompetent/biased it's up to the clubs to do something. It surely can't be beyond Hibs/Petrie to organise a 'quiet meeting' with the chairmen/owners of the other SPL clubs to see where they stand and, if possible, issue a joint statement that all have agreed to ??. Because if nothing is done then the Huns black-cloud will hang over our game for ever more !Quote:
Originally Posted by HIGHLANDLEITHER
I have mind reading powers.Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient hibee
How about:
"Hibernian FC notes the verdict of the Supreme Court finding the use of Employee Benefit Trusts (EBTs) by the Rangers Football Club plc to remunerate its staff, including players, during the years 2000-2010 to have been an illegal method of tax avoidance. Furthermore, we note that the assumption underpinning Lord Nimmo Smith's finding, namely that the use of EBTs conferred "no sporting advantage" has been seriously undermined."
It was my understanding that the rules in place at the time were so limited that the independent legal advice is that nothing else could be done, so any reference to breaches of rules and comparing punishments is totally pointless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keekaboo
It is a good example of why the fans on board thing doesn't really work - there can be a rush to communicate something that really should be left in the boardroom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Argylehibby
I'd be very surprised indeed nay shocked if rules then did not include expulsion from tournaments for improperly registered players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy74
My understanding is that it's not that nothing else could have been done at the time, but that the SPFL have found a lawyer who's told them it's now too late to challenge the decision of Lord Nimmo-Smith. There's a supporters' group somewhere (mainly Celtic) that's getting legal advice on whether a judicial review of this and other football authority actions can be undertaken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy74
It would be interesting to hear what Lord N-S now thinks about his commission's verdict in light of the Supreme Court verdict on the EBTs. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a journalist in Scotland with sufficient curiosity to pick up a phone and try to find out.