Rugby

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Originally Posted by weecounty hibby

Believe me it's not a knee jerk reaction from me to be critical of Townsend. I'll judge him on his overall performance and definitely at the end of the championship but his record isn't good considering these are probably the best players we have had in years and years, arguably ever. He has had us finish 3rd twice, 4th four times and 5th once. Not good enough. Can't beat Ireland struggle to beat Wales in Wales, struggle to beat Italy. Not good enough and throw in the world cups then he has seriously underperformed. The whole sru needs a shake up though. Club rugby is on its knees, the pro teams are average at best.

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I do believe you. IIRC it's not the first time you've been critical of Scotland's most successful coach ever. From what I can make out his win % is over 60% with only Cotter getting better than 50% (with 52%). And four in a row vs England with a potential hat-trick of consecutive wins at Twickenham in two weeks time when previously wins at HQ were like hen's teeth. In my book that is good enough. The reality is that if Townsend is dumped, any new coach coming on board would be delighted to get a 50%+ win ratio.
And who actually underperformed at RWC? Him? The collective coaching team? The players? All up for debate, although I agree he has to carry the can at the end of the day. But not when his win ratio stays as high and there are mitigations for a loss such as Sunday's i.e. the strength of the opposition, the loss of Tuipolotu, Russell missing the aforementioned player big time, Russell's early departure, Graham's injury etc. If the team that played 3/4 of the match on Sunday had been selected at the outset ie with Jordan at 10, MacDowell at 12 and Dobie at 14, no-one would have given Scotland a cat's chance in hell of beating Ireland.
Seems Scottish Rugby has a major shake-up every 5 years or so. I don't doubt that some aspects of the game and Scottish Ruby's management of it are not working as well as you might hope but as you say, we have a strong squad, possibly the strongest ever, so something is working to get the shop window bright and attractive. Just be thankful you are not Welsh.

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Originally Posted by Sylar

Arguably the worst performance ive seen from any Scotland side since I started watching.

Some really awful individual performances, bizarre decision making and really poor discipline. Was wary when i seen the team/bench midweek.

Im fed up seeing us losing to them. Their fans are insufferably smug too.

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Definitely have an inferiority complex with the Irish always think we struggle to match their physicality. The lack of early aggression plus the number of simple mistakes was ridiculous. The centre position looked a mistake especially if they play for the same team yet they haven’t played together in the centre with their club yet are thrown in against one of the best international teams in their world.Referee was awful and Scotland didn’t get a meaningful decision

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Originally Posted by Greenbeard

I do believe you. IIRC it's not the first time you've been critical of Scotland's most successful coach ever. From what I can make out his win % is over 60% with only Cotter getting better than 50% (with 52%). And four in a row vs England with a potential hat-trick of consecutive wins at Twickenham in two weeks time when previously wins at HQ were like hen's teeth. In my book that is good enough. The reality is that if Townsend is dumped, any new coach coming on board would be delighted to get a 50%+ win ratio.
And who actually underperformed at RWC? Him? The collective coaching team? The players? All up for debate, although I agree he has to carry the can at the end of the day. But not when his win ratio stays as high and there are mitigations for a loss such as Sunday's i.e. the strength of the opposition, the loss of Tuipolotu, Russell missing the aforementioned player big time, Russell's early departure, Graham's injury etc. If the team that played 3/4 of the match on Sunday had been selected at the outset ie with Jordan at 10, MacDowell at 12 and Dobie at 14, no-one would have given Scotland a cat's chance in hell of beating Ireland.
Seems Scottish Rugby has a major shake-up every 5 years or so. I don't doubt that some aspects of the game and Scottish Ruby's management of it are not working as well as you might hope but as you say, we have a strong squad, possibly the strongest ever, so something is working to get the shop window bright and attractive. Just be thankful you are not Welsh.

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Good post.

👍

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Originally Posted by Greenbeard

I do believe you. IIRC it's not the first time you've been critical of Scotland's most successful coach ever. From what I can make out his win % is over 60% with only Cotter getting better than 50% (with 52%). And four in a row vs England with a potential hat-trick of consecutive wins at Twickenham in two weeks time when previously wins at HQ were like hen's teeth. In my book that is good enough. The reality is that if Townsend is dumped, any new coach coming on board would be delighted to get a 50%+ win ratio.
And who actually underperformed at RWC? Him? The collective coaching team? The players? All up for debate, although I agree he has to carry the can at the end of the day. But not when his win ratio stays as high and there are mitigations for a loss such as Sunday's i.e. the strength of the opposition, the loss of Tuipolotu, Russell missing the aforementioned player big time, Russell's early departure, Graham's injury etc. If the team that played 3/4 of the match on Sunday had been selected at the outset ie with Jordan at 10, MacDowell at 12 and Dobie at 14, no-one would have given Scotland a cat's chance in hell of beating Ireland.
Seems Scottish Rugby has a major shake-up every 5 years or so. I don't doubt that some aspects of the game and Scottish Ruby's management of it are not working as well as you might hope but as you say, we have a strong squad, possibly the strongest ever, so something is working to get the shop window bright and attractive. Just be thankful you are not Welsh.

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Being thankful not to be Welsh is amusing but not good enough.

This group of players have underperformed when it’s mattered consistently. Never finished higher than 3rd in the championship (once), failed to get out of the pool stage at RWC twice in a row, 11 defeats in a row v Ireland, last years loss to Italy, haven’t once entered the final weekend with any chance of winning the tournament. The list could go on but with talent like Russell, Jones, Tui, Fagerson, VDM, Kinghorn, Darcy, Darge etc. the above failures are unacceptable. Winning against England is great, but the jambo mentality of ‘at least we beat them’ isn’t good enough. Let’s be honest, England have been well off it in recent years and with the squad Scotland has, we SHOULD be beating them.

I’ve watched Scotland for 30 years and this is by far the best squad we’ve had, better than 1999 in my opinion. Townsend should have achieved more, you can blame the players but ultimately the buck stops with the coach. His win % is great for those trying to defend him but with the players he has at his disposal, compared to the utter dross we had pre-2015, it’s no achievement to have a superior win percentage to other Scotland coaches. Cotter is closest to him with 52%, makes sense considering he caught the beginning of this era (Hogg, Russell etc).

I personally can’t believe that a better coach wouldn’t have achieved more with this group, we are nearing the end for a lot of them and it looks like they won’t even compete for a championship on the final weekend. I would have got rid of Townsend after the last World Cup.

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Originally Posted by Itsnoteasy

Are they all Irish players, or are any Irish through the 5 year residency malarkey.

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I honestly can't stomach this conversation, as all nations do it to varying degrees and we're definitely in no position to call it out with our recent reliance on overseas talent acquiring residency/grandparent rule etc. Ireland have a few (Gibson-Park, Lowe, Aki, Herring, Bealham, McCarthy, Hansen are all international born), but most countries use the same approach. What Ireland also have is a school and academy system that has been well-invested in, and offers a real opportunity for many great young Irish men to get a path into rugby.

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Originally Posted by Pagan Hibernia

I'm an Ireland fan and we know how you feel. I remember the 90s when we couldn't buy a win against Scotland. No wins at Murrayfield between 1985 and 2003.

The tide will turn eventually. I'm just enjoying this run for as long as it lasts.

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I think a lot will need to change for that tide to turn anytime soon. Chronic underinvestment in rugby in Scotland doesn't give me hope about the players coming through behind this so-called 'golden generation', and grassroots clubs are really struggling. The SRU has a massive financial hole to plug, and I worry we're likely to head more in a Welsh direction in the years to come as things unravel. Ireland meanwhile, despite challenges in funding inequity across the provinces, seems to keep unearthing gems from that academy system to step up and keep boosting the current team. I'd heard so much about this being a great time to finally play you as you'd 'lost a step', 'aren't the team they once were', but you looked incredibly accomplished on Sunday.

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Originally Posted by JimBHibees

Definitely have an inferiority complex with the Irish always think we struggle to match their physicality. The lack of early aggression plus the number of simple mistakes was ridiculous. The centre position looked a mistake especially if they play for the same team yet they haven’t played together in the centre with their club yet are thrown in against one of the best international teams in their world.Referee was awful and Scotland didn’t get a meaningful decision

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Yeah, Tom Jordan is a good player but I think he's a bit wasted at centre if I'm honest, but I don't think Stafford McDowell would have necessarily been any better. I kep reading about our weakened psyche when it comes to playing teams like Ireland and I think there's a degree of truth in it. O'Mahoney and his ilk know how to get under the skin of our players so easily, and he's a magician when it comes to his type of on-field sh*thousery.

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Originally Posted by Greenbeard

I do believe you. IIRC it's not the first time you've been critical of Scotland's most successful coach ever. From what I can make out his win % is over 60% with only Cotter getting better than 50% (with 52%). And four in a row vs England with a potential hat-trick of consecutive wins at Twickenham in two weeks time when previously wins at HQ were like hen's teeth. In my book that is good enough. The reality is that if Townsend is dumped, any new coach coming on board would be delighted to get a 50%+ win ratio.
And who actually underperformed at RWC? Him? The collective coaching team? The players? All up for debate, although I agree he has to carry the can at the end of the day. But not when his win ratio stays as high and there are mitigations for a loss such as Sunday's i.e. the strength of the opposition, the loss of Tuipolotu, Russell missing the aforementioned player big time, Russell's early departure, Graham's injury etc. If the team that played 3/4 of the match on Sunday had been selected at the outset ie with Jordan at 10, MacDowell at 12 and Dobie at 14, no-one would have given Scotland a cat's chance in hell of beating Ireland.
Seems Scottish Rugby has a major shake-up every 5 years or so. I don't doubt that some aspects of the game and Scottish Ruby's management of it are not working as well as you might hope but as you say, we have a strong squad, possibly the strongest ever, so something is working to get the shop window bright and attractive. Just be thankful you are not Welsh.

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I am in the Townsend out camp, not as a direct result of Sunday's game but it definitely felt like a defining moment. Probably our best chance to beat Ireland and finally mount a Six Nations challenge and the team didn't turn up. No wins in eleven against them is embarrassing, no matter how good they are. We just don't know how to break them down, you'd hope your Head Coach would figure it out after so many attempts.

Yes, the win rate is high, but he has had a squad that is better than most coaches had before him. I still view the 2021 Six Nations as a missed opportunity and both RWCs have been poor. Cotter was a ludicrous referring decision away from getting us to a semi final, with a less talented squad.

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Originally Posted by GreenGray

I am in the Townsend out camp, not as a direct result of Sunday's game but it definitely felt like a defining moment. Probably our best chance to beat Ireland and finally mount a Six Nations challenge and the team didn't turn up. No wins in eleven against them is embarrassing, no matter how good they are. We just don't know how to break them down, you'd hope your Head Coach would figure it out after so many attempts.

Yes, the win rate is high, but he has had a squad that is better than most coaches had before him. I still view the 2021 Six Nations as a missed opportunity and both RWCs have been poor. Cotter was a ludicrous referring decision away from getting us to a semi final, with a less talented squad.

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A semi final I’m still convinced we would have won! Would have been well beaten in the final but that decision cost us a place in the final imo.

Any of you "Townsend Out" brigade want Gatland now that he is available? If not him, who are the stand-out candidates who are so certain to be better than Townsend to justify dumping him when he's the best we've had?

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Originally Posted by Mcbizz1998

A semi final I’m still convinced we would have won! Would have been well beaten in the final but that decision cost us a place in the final imo.

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Yup, I still think we should have kept Cotter and let Townsend go abroad for experience. They jumped the gun too early because they were afraid of losing Townsend.

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Originally Posted by Greenbeard

Any of you "Townsend Out" brigade want Gatland now that he is available? If not him, who are the stand-out candidates who are so certain to be better than Townsend to justify dumping him when he's the best we've had?

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Given his contract, I know we won't be binning him. I still think it was a mistake renewing it before the 2023 World Cup, given how the tournament went that would have bene the time to make a change.

I would throw money at Ronan O'Gara (maybe unrealistic) or Franco Smith, who coached - potentially - one of the greatest wins involving a Scottish side in recent times.

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Originally Posted by Greenbeard

Any of you "Townsend Out" brigade want Gatland now that he is available? If not him, who are the stand-out candidates who are so certain to be better than Townsend to justify dumping him when he's the best we've had?

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Not sure anyone suggested a potential Townsend replacement would be a certain to be better, I certainly didn’t.

Franco Smith for me. Knows the players and delivered probably the most impressive Scottish success in the pro-era.

It's an interesting dilemma for the SRU - Smith is doing wonders at Glasgow, and we have a successful domestic side in a major competition...

As an Edinburgh fan, I hope he stays at Glasgow as he has them being a successful side. Better domestic teams will ultimately make for better international sides.

I don't think Townsend should be dismissed yet. He's gotten a lot wrong in his tenure, but there's no denying we're a far better side in the past 5-6 years than at any other point in recent history!

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Originally Posted by Mcbizz1998

Not sure anyone suggested a potential Townsend replacement would be a certain to be better, I certainly didn’t.

Franco Smith for me. Knows the players and delivered probably the most impressive Scottish success in the pro-era.

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Didn't say you did but you surely wouldn't bin any employee whose stats show he is performing better than anyone previously unless you were sure you will recruit a better replacement, no?

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Originally Posted by Greenbeard

Didn't say you did but you surely wouldn't bin any employee whose stats show he is performing better than anyone previously unless you were sure you will recruit a better replacement, no?

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Can't be bothered looking them up but what do his 6 nations stats say? His record is less than average with one 3rd place. Wins against Portugal, Canada, USA etc mean nothing. The bread and butter is 6 nations and we have underperformed in the championship with a very strong squad. Can't beat Ireland, struggled to beat Wales, France beat us more often than not. Only the recent form against England has saved us from continual 5th place and even the wooden spoon as Italy have beaten us recently as well.
I don't know who would improve us but you only have to look at what Gatland did with that Wales team to see what can be done when you have a strong side. Gatland can't coach poor players to be better but he certainly made the very best out of what was a strong side. Something I don't think Townsend is doing

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Originally Posted by Greenbeard

Didn't say you did but you surely wouldn't bin any employee whose stats show he is performing better than anyone previously unless you were sure you will recruit a better replacement, no?

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I’d bin him if I thought Scotland could appoint someone better - which I do. Same as we would get rid of David Gray if we believed there was a manager out there who could achieve more - and we could realistically appoint.

As mentioned previously, Townsends record is superior to others but he has the players. Comparing him to anyone in the pro-era, especially post 2000, isn’t a fair comparison given the complete dross his predecessors had to work with. We had guys like Sean Lamont and Chris Paterson getting over 100 caps, neither of whom would get more than about 10 if playing today, Lamont would be about 7th choice winger. And those 2 are examples of better players we had at that time!

Townsends win % is in-spite of him not because of, IMO. I firmly believe a better coach would have/still could get more from these players. We can either stick with him and continue to be also-rans or appoint someone new in the hope we might see the potential this group undoubtedly has. Unfortunately, the SRU will stick until the next World Cup and it will likely be too late.

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Originally Posted by Mcbizz1998

I’d bin him if I thought Scotland could appoint someone better - which I do. Same as we would get rid of David Gray if we believed there was a manager out there who could achieve more - and we could realistically appoint.

As mentioned previously, Townsends record is superior to others but he has the players. Comparing him to anyone in the pro-era, especially post 2000, isn’t a fair comparison given the complete dross his predecessors had to work with. We had guys like Sean Lamont and Chris Paterson getting over 100 caps, neither of whom would get more than about 10 if playing today, Lamont would be about 7th choice winger. And those 2 are examples of better players we had at that time!

Townsends win % is in-spite of him not because of, IMO. I firmly believe a better coach would have/still could get more from these players. We can either stick with him and continue to be also-rans or appoint someone new in the hope we might see the potential this group undoubtedly has. Unfortunately, the SRU will stick until the next World Cup and it will likely be too late.

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-un...s/cx2mznvnmy8o

Nuff said, especially when you start slagging Chris Paterson. You might think a player of his build has no place in modern rugby but only need look at Prendergast or Cappuozzo to see how wrong that is if you have the skills to compensate - which Mossy had in abundance irrespective of the standard of his playing partners.
I'm finished on this. Slag away uncontested.

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Originally Posted by Greenbeard

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-un...s/cx2mznvnmy8o

Nuff said, especially when you start slagging Chris Paterson. You might think a player of his build has no place in modern rugby but only need look at Prendergast or Cappuozzo to see how wrong that is if you have the skills to compensate - which Mossy had in abundance irrespective of the standard of his playing partners.
I'm finished on this. Slag away uncontested.

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Sorry but if you think Paterson would get anywhere near today’s squad then you’re delusional. I wasn’t ‘slagging’ anyone, I was merely pointing out the difference in quality we now have compared to pre-Townsend. Paterson was a good player for Scotland at that time, but only because the squad was so poor.

Thankfully, we’ve moved on from there. After Paterson we moved to Stuart Hogg who was a 3 time touring and test lion, record try scorer and European cup winner. Quite clearly he was of a better quality than Paterson, it’s not slagging him to point that out just as it’s not slagging to say that Kinghorn is ahead of him too. I never mentioned anyone’s build, you did (Prendergast is 6ft 4 - FYI)

I’m sorry this has offended you so much, it’s my opinion and I’m not one only one!

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Originally Posted by Mcbizz1998

Sorry but if you think Paterson would get anywhere near today’s squad then you’re delusional. I wasn’t ‘slagging’ anyone, I was merely pointing out the difference in quality we now have compared to pre-Townsend. Paterson was a good player for Scotland at that time, but only because the squad was so poor.

Thankfully, we’ve moved on from there. After Paterson we moved to Stuart Hogg who was a 3 time touring and test lion, record try scorer and European cup winner. Quite clearly he was of a better quality than Paterson, it’s not slagging him to point that out just as it’s not slagging to say that Kinghorn is ahead of him too. I never mentioned anyone’s build, you did (Prendergast is 6ft 4 - FYI)

I’m sorry this has offended you so much, it’s my opinion and I’m not one only one!

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In fairness, you did describe him as "utter dross" :greengrin - he was a fine player for his time and merited every cap he earned, but of course your broader point about the uptick in quality to today's squad of players is a valid one IMO :agree:

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Originally Posted by Greenbeard

Any of you "Townsend Out" brigade want Gatland now that he is available? If not him, who are the stand-out candidates who are so certain to be better than Townsend to justify dumping him when he's the best we've had?

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Three Grand Slams, two world cup semi-finals and had Wales ranked No 1 in the world. Wales have fallen off a cliff of late for sure, but he still managed to thrash Australia at the last World Cup, where Wales got to the last eight. I wouldn't rule him out.

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Originally Posted by Sylar

In fairness, you did describe him as "utter dross" :greengrin - he was a fine player for his time and merited every cap he earned, but of course your broader point about the uptick in quality to today's squad of players is a valid one IMO :agree:

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Hmm no I said there was dross at that time. In a separate sentence I mentioned Paterson and the number of caps he got - I said that he and Lamont were 2 of the better players.

But yeah, maybe not the clearest post I’ve written!

Back to domestic rugby tonight, with Edinburgh hosting Zebre at The Hive. Really looking forward to seeing Boffeli back in the starting XV for Edinburgh!

No Scotland players involved, of course.

Zebre wait six years for an away win and now a 2nd straight win Edinburgh 17 Zebre 22

ross thomson kicking was poor
can't throw the ball straight at a line-out
Ben Healy kicking the ball out on the full which Zebre made full use of for their last try
Hamish watson not releasing the ball with the try line two yards away

Up there with one of the worst Edinburgh performances I've seen in all my years following them...

Easier to identify who gets pass marks vs singling folks out for criticism. Dreadful performances across the entire team.

Anyone know what the deal is with the new stand at Edinburgh Accies' ground? We took a wee walk through Stockbridge recently and popped up for a pint in the upstairs bar which I discovered is open to the public. All very nice but when you look out from the stand there's no actual pitch in front of it. The pitch is away over on another side of the ground (where it always was I think). I recall there being a big stooshie from local residents about the stand being built, but now that it has it doesn't seem to serve a practical purpose. Seems to me it would have been a good home for Edinburgh rugby, but not with the pitch so far away! Weird.

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Originally Posted by Sylar

Up there with one of the worst Edinburgh performances I've seen in all my years following them...

Easier to identify who gets pass marks vs singling folks out for criticism. Dreadful performances across the entire team.

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Hearing from within, albeit 3rd hand, that there is a fair bit of disquiet within the Edinburgh dressing room.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Anyone know what the deal is with the new stand at Edinburgh Accies' ground? We took a wee walk through Stockbridge recently and popped up for a pint in the upstairs bar which I discovered is open to the public. All very nice but when you look out from the stand there's no actual pitch in front of it. The pitch is away over on another side of the ground (where it always was I think). I recall there being a big stooshie from local residents about the stand being built, but now that it has it doesn't seem to serve a practical purpose. Seems to me it would have been a good home for Edinburgh rugby, but not with the pitch so far away! Weird.

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There was a 1m strip on the street side of the ground which belonged to the cricket club who were dead set against the development.

I think they wanted a million for this strip. It’s obviously been sorted but it was a bit of a rammy. Not sure about the pitch but I’d imagine they’d move out now all the construction is finished

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Originally Posted by Greenbeard

Hearing from within, albeit 3rd hand, that there is a fair bit of disquiet within the Edinburgh dressing room.

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Chimes with what I've heard from someone I know who plays in the first team pretty often.

They don't like the current coaching style, there's a lot of personality conflicts and the higher-ups don't seem to much give a ****.

Wouldn't surprise me to see more players follow Jamie Ritchie out the door this summer.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Anyone know what the deal is with the new stand at Edinburgh Accies' ground? We took a wee walk through Stockbridge recently and popped up for a pint in the upstairs bar which I discovered is open to the public. All very nice but when you look out from the stand there's no actual pitch in front of it. The pitch is away over on another side of the ground (where it always was I think). I recall there being a big stooshie from local residents about the stand being built, but now that it has it doesn't seem to serve a practical purpose. Seems to me it would have been a good home for Edinburgh rugby, but not with the pitch so far away! Weird.

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I think there was talk of Edinburgh moving there prior to the Hive being "built". The Stockbridge residents kicked up a fuss about it IIRC.

I seem to remember reading something about the reason for the pitch being kept where it was being to do with the drainage. The existing pitch has a drainage system underneath and they couldn't yet afford to move/get a new drainage system. They went ahead and built the stand anyway because of the revenue from the shops underneath. Or something like that.

decent win for a weakened Glasgow at basement side Dragons winning 20-45

George Horne picked up a facial injury and may miss out at Twickenham

Matt Currie drops out with a concussion picked up v Zebre


Ali Price, Cameron Redpath & Ross McCann called up

Ali Price has absolutely no business being near this Scotland squad. He's been dreadful all season.

Great to see Cam back in contention though :agree: