When we gonna get over it ?

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Originally Posted by The Modfather

Hounded out for finishing 5th and doing the cup double? Sounds like one of our best ever seasons.

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'League season'

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Originally Posted by The Modfather

Hounded out for finishing 5th and doing the cup double? Sounds like one of our best ever seasons.

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It’s unlikely we’d have been patient enough after 1 win in 10 (or whatever it was) at the start of the season.

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Originally Posted by matty_f

Immediately we’d have benefited more from the season that St Johnstone had, but long term - unless we were doing that every season, it’sa boom and bust strategy.


Consistently achieving third sets us up to win cups more often because of the wider benefits.

St Johnstone’s consistent top 6 finishes over the last however many years has given them the platform to win cups. The evidence odd right in front of you.

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How is it a boom or bust strategy?

St Johnstone have had a wonderfully successful season, largely at our expense. I’ll bet they wish they could play us every week.

This isn’t like Livi in 2004 who beat us to the league cup by spending money they didn’t have on better players. This is a St Johnstone squad built on a much smaller budget (including several players deemed not good enough for Hibs) who had our number.

If that doesn’t prompt some serious soul searching, I don’t know what does. We blew it big time, and I’m not in the mood to hear platitudes about how great the boys were in the league. I want to hear from a management team that has realised where we went wrong and is taking steps to address those failings.

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Originally Posted by Allez Hibs

Would rather have a trophy over 3rd place, every time.

That is why this thread is still going.

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I think the majority would agree. Thing is you don’t get the choice.

The best way to chase the cups is to also be consistent in the league but for some reason it feels like a lot of folk are happy to write off consistency in the league while forgetting if we were inconsistent that they’d be raging and want the manager sacked - creating more instability which in turn makes us less likely to win all the cups.

As many posters have stated, finishing third in the league is second best to winning a Cup-especially our Holy Grail, the Scottish Cup. I think Jack Ross only has a few credits left in the bank but obviously hope he and Hibs succeed. Last season was a massive opportunity to have bagged at least one piece of silverware and so will hurt for a good while ..:brickwall

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Originally Posted by CJHibby

As many posters have stated, finishing third in the league is second best to winning a Cup-especially our Holy Grail, the Scottish Cup. I think Jack Ross only has a few credits left in the bank but obviously hope he and Hibs succeed. Last season was a massive opportunity to have bagged at least one piece of silverware and so will hurt for a good while ..:brickwall

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We have just finished 3rd which is realistically the best we will ever do so forgive me if I am prepared to give him more than " a few credits."

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Originally Posted by jacomo

How is it a boom or bust strategy?

St Johnstone have had a wonderfully successful season, largely at our expense. I’ll bet they wish they could play us every week.

This isn’t like Livi in 2004 who beat us to the league cup by spending money they didn’t have on better players. This is a St Johnstone squad built on a much smaller budget (including several players deemed not good enough for Hibs) who had our number.

If that doesn’t prompt some serious soul searching, I don’t know what does. We blew it big time, and I’m not in the mood to hear platitudes about how great the boys were in the league. I want to hear from a management team that has realised where we went wrong and is taking steps to address those failings.

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I don't think we'll be hearing much from our management team about where our game plan went wrong, the time for that was after the final when Ross could (should ) have apologised to the fans for such a dismal showing. Hopefully though, he will have learned and be able to rectify the teams failings this coming season. By the end of this transfer window the side will by and large be one of his making/choosing and Ross will stand or fall by them.

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

I don't think we'll be hearing much from our management team about where our game plan went wrong, the time for that was after the final when Ross could (should ) have apologised to the fans for such a dismal showing. Hopefully though, he will have learned and be able to rectify the teams failings this coming season. By the end of this transfer window the side will by and large be one of his making/choosing and Ross will stand or fall by them.

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I have to admit that the games against St Johnstone are what concerns me about Ross. They were all the same and he didn’t seem to have a plan b of an idea of what to do to take st Johnstone out of their comfort zone. That’s what concerned me more than anything else about the manner in which we lost the final tbh

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Originally Posted by Calmbegbie

I have to admit that the games against St Johnstone are what concerns me about Ross. They were all the same and he didn’t seem to have a plan b of an idea of what to do to take st Johnstone out of their comfort zone. That’s what concerned me more than anything else about the manner in which we lost the final tbh

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It's not a new problem though and certainly not exclusive to Jack Ross. Stubbs & Lennon also struggled against teams that parked the bus.

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Originally Posted by Peevemor

It's not a new problem though and certainly not exclusive to Jack Ross. Stubbs & Lennon also struggled against teams that parked the bus.

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Lennon never beat St Johnstone at Hibs. :agree:

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Originally Posted by Danderhall Hibs

It’s unlikely we’d have been patient enough after 1 win in 10 (or whatever it was) at the start of the season.

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St Johnstone weren’t. Tommy Wright left.

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Originally Posted by jacomo

How is it a boom or bust strategy?

St Johnstone have had a wonderfully successful season, largely at our expense. I’ll bet they wish they could play us every week.

This isn’t like Livi in 2004 who beat us to the league cup by spending money they didn’t have on better players. This is a St Johnstone squad built on a much smaller budget (including several players deemed not good enough for Hibs) who had our number.

If that doesn’t prompt some serious soul searching, I don’t know what does. We blew it big time, and I’m not in the mood to hear platitudes about how great the boys were in the league. I want to hear from a management team that has realised where we went wrong and is taking steps to address those failings.

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It’s boom or just because it relies on putting your eggs in one, very difficult to achieve, basket.

Regular average seasons with a cup win every now and again is what we’ve had historically, albeit with fewer cup wins than we’d want.

St Johnstone are a consistent top 6 side, which helped them achieve what they’ve achieved. We’ve been relegated, stayed in the Championship for three seasons while we rebuilt, and St Johnstone have been able to use that stability and relative success to get success.

We’ve been building and were very close to achieving it as well.

The sustainable approach, in terms of keeping fans coming through the gates and building a solid financial footing, is to build a team that consistently competes at the top end of the table, and in doing do you also set up for winning cups on a more regular basis.

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Originally Posted by jacomo

St Johnstone weren’t. Tommy Wright left.

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That was Davidson’s record, so they were. :wink:

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Originally Posted by matty_f

It’s boom or just because it relies on putting your eggs in one, very difficult to achieve, basket.

Regular average seasons with a cup win every now and again is what we’ve had historically, albeit with fewer cup wins than we’d want.

St Johnstone are a consistent top 6 side, which helped them achieve what they’ve achieved. We’ve been relegated, stayed in the Championship for three seasons while we rebuilt, and St Johnstone have been able to use that stability and relative success to get success.

We’ve been building and were very close to achieving it as well.

The sustainable approach, in terms of keeping fans coming through the gates and building a solid financial footing, is to build a team that consistently competes at the top end of the table, and in doing do you also set up for winning cups on a more regular basis.

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I agree, you would expect a team that finishes at the top end of the table to have a more solid foundation and compete for cups. That said, Hibs have been rebuilding the club from the time we were relegated, the time in the Championship is a bit skewed by the nature of the competition we faced. I suspect our budget whilst in the Championship was still considerable greater than St Johnstone's? We've still seen significant investment in Hibs these past seven or so years, no matter which league we were in?

Ideally we could have a team that is always in the top six and.....here's the big one, one that wins more games at Hampden than it loses. Eight appearances at Hampden since 2016 and one win, with only three of those games v any of the Old Firm. That isn't a sustainable approach, it's soul destroying. A bit more achieving it, and a few less tepid performances is all we ask for.

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Originally Posted by superfurryhibby

I agree, you would expect a team that finishes at the top end of the table to have a more solid foundation and compete for cups. That said, Hibs have been rebuilding the club from the time we were relegated, the time in the Championship is a bit skewed by the nature of the competition we faced. I suspect our budget whilst in the Championship was still considerable greater than St Johnstone's? We've still seen significant investment in Hibs these past seven or so years, no matter which league we were in?

Ideally we could have a team that is always in the top six and.....here's the big one, one that wins more games at Hampden than it loses. Eight appearances at Hampden since 2016 and one win, with only three of those games v any of the Old Firm. That isn't a sustainable approach, it's soul destroying. A bit more achieving it, and a few less tepid performances is all we ask for.

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I think the number of Hampden trips (and, sadly, subsequent disappointments) tells us that the consistency and the rebuilding is working, we just need that bit extra when it really matters - but we’re right in the mix almost every time, which can’t be said by many teams in the country.

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Originally Posted by matty_f

That was Davidson’s record, so they were. :wink:

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Fair point.

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Originally Posted by matty_f

It’s boom or just because it relies on putting your eggs in one, very difficult to achieve, basket.

Regular average seasons with a cup win every now and again is what we’ve had historically, albeit with fewer cup wins than we’d want.

St Johnstone are a consistent top 6 side, which helped them achieve what they’ve achieved. We’ve been relegated, stayed in the Championship for three seasons while we rebuilt, and St Johnstone have been able to use that stability and relative success to get success.

We’ve been building and were very close to achieving it as well.

The sustainable approach, in terms of keeping fans coming through the gates and building a solid financial footing, is to build a team that consistently competes at the top end of the table, and in doing do you also set up for winning cups on a more regular basis.

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I’m still baffled here though, I’m afraid.

I don’t see anything risky about the way St Johnstone have gone about their business. They’ve just been significantly better at it than us.

Just have to leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by The Modfather

Hounded out for finishing 5th and doing the cup double? Sounds like one of our best ever seasons.

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The way they started the season would've seen the manager hounded out. They were brilliant this year, not so much before.

They won 11 league matches all season. From 38, that is poor.

Stubbs very nearly won both cups, and folk still give him stick for the poor league season. This would be no different.

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Originally Posted by MWHIBBIES

The way they started the season would've seen the manager hounded out. They were brilliant this year, not so much before.

They won 11 league matches all season. From 38, that is poor.

Stubbs very nearly won both cups, and folk still give him stick for the poor league season. This would be no different.

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I’m sure I heard/read that they scored 9 goals at home all season. A Hibs manager would be hounded out for that alone.

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Originally Posted by Danderhall Hibs

I’m sure I heard/read that they scored 9 goals at home all season. A Hibs manager would be hounded out for that alone.

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Strangely enough I’d saw a similar stat saying they’d scored 18 but 7 of them were against Kelty in a cup. On the presumption what you’re saying was just league goals then it is probably about right I’d imagine.

For all the talk of them being this really good team, they’re actually a bit ****.

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Originally Posted by calumhibee1

Strangely enough I’d saw a similar stat saying they’d scored 18 but 7 of them were against Kelty in a cup. On the presumption what you’re saying was just league goals then it is probably about right I’d imagine.

For all the talk of them being this really good team, they’re actually a bit ****.

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They play the way most Scottish teams play, go out to stifle any joy in the game. They are entitled to do that but its rotten to watch.

What they do have and shouldn't be ignored is team spirit in abundance, all their players are carefully picked to fit in with each other and are made to feel that St Johnstone is their home.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

I’d love us to be **** enough to win a cup double.

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Originally Posted by jacomo

I’m still baffled here though, I’m afraid.

I don’t see anything risky about the way St Johnstone have gone about their business. They’ve just been significantly better at it than us.

Just have to leave it at that.

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St Johnstone haven’t done the boom or bust. They’re success is built upon their relative league success, that’s why you can’t see the risk.

Top 6 in 8 out of the last ten seasons, including a third and three consecutive fourth place finishes. They’ve built steadily towards this point. I think they’re only on their second manager of that period as well.

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Originally Posted by matty_f

I think the number of Hampden trips (and, sadly, subsequent disappointments) tells us that the consistency and the rebuilding is working, we just need that bit extra when it really matters - but we’re right in the mix almost every time, which can’t be said by many teams in the country.

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I've calmed down a bit and probably agree largely with what you are saying. My main gripe is how often I've heard this about Hibs team. We always seem to be on the cusp. I like the set up of the club, Ross has done well but I'm not sure we can suggest that our recent record of visits to Hampden is a sign that we will come good and start winning them more than not. I certainly hope that's the case but professional football rarely allows for teams to develop and grow unless have are funded by oil billions. We could be on the verge of years of success, but if Hibs history is anything to go by, we could just as easily see the team dismantled in the summer and end up mid table.

After 2016 similar noises were made about this just being the beginning, culture at the club has moved and we'll start seeing more success. We've undoubtedly had some good years after that, but I don't think we've really kicked on to the extent I hoped.

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Originally Posted by matty_f

St Johnstone haven’t done the boom or bust. They’re success is built upon their relative league success, that’s why you can’t see the risk.

Top 6 in 8 out of the last ten seasons, including a third and three consecutive fourth place finishes. They’ve built steadily towards this point. I think they’re only on their second manager of that period as well.

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They're actually better than we give them credit for :agree:

The St Johnston of old were clearly also rans... that's no longer the case.



Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by matty_f

I think the number of Hampden trips (and, sadly, subsequent disappointments) tells us that the consistency and the rebuilding is working, we just need that bit extra when it really matters - but we’re right in the mix almost every time, which can’t be said by many teams in the country.

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They were saying same thing in 1907 and it turned out ok eventually. Just need more faith and patience 👍

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Originally Posted by Crunchie

I'm not a fair weather fan so I wouldn't fall into that category :greengrin, and obviously I wouldn't want us to have a poor league season, far from it.

I don't know why I'm even on this thread because I'm over the final, and I'm in the keep Jack Ross camp, he has us banging on the door and that's fine by me.
I believe I was replying to Mr Brightside who's happy to finish higher up the league than actually win anything, and you seem to agree with him. I don't, give me a trophy and day of the week over a 3rd place finish.
I agree with what Matty is saying in as far as if you have a better team you have a better chance of winning something but that doesn't always follow. The much fabled Hibs team of the 70's as you well know won 1
major honour and ended up relegated.
Given the choice of course I'd like both a high finish and winning cups, but if I had to choose I'd even take relegation if it meant winning the Scottish cup again. After all we know we'll bounce back up and challenge again.

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I understand what you mean, i'd have loved to win the cup this season and finished 5th or 6th, but we dont get that choice it would be good if we did.:greengrin

Can you imagine this board had we lost more matches than we actually did, and the team was languishing outside a European place before the quarters or the semi or even the final ?

The frothers would be wanting everyone from the manager down to the tea lady sacked for such a horrendous season, some of our horror shows would be slaughtered for weeks and the negativity would know no bounds.

But everything would turn out ok in the end, because we would have won the cup. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by neil7908

I've calmed down a bit and probably agree largely with what you are saying. My main gripe is how often I've heard this about Hibs team. We always seem to be on the cusp. I like the set up of the club, Ross has done well but I'm not sure we can suggest that our recent record of visits to Hampden is a sign that we will come good and start winning them more than not. I certainly hope that's the case but professional football rarely allows for teams to develop and grow unless have are funded by oil billions. We could be on the verge of years of success, but if Hibs history is anything to go by, we could just as easily see the team dismantled in the summer and end up mid table.

After 2016 similar noises were made about this just being the beginning, culture at the club has moved and we'll start seeing more success. We've undoubtedly had some good years after that, but I don't think we've really kicked on to the extent I hoped.

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I think the biggest difference that i can see better where we are today and promising moments in the past, is that we seem to have our act together off the field with a clear strategy and idea of how to capitalise.

When we sold the golden generation, we had huge debt to repay, we built the training centre and later built the East Stand.

We’ve almost no debt now (other than the known government loan of £2m over 20 years, interest free).

When we previously brought in money for transfers, we spent pretty poorly - we’ve got a functioning recruitment team now.

We’ve got a better youth set up, now seeing partnerships with other clubs to improve our players but also to give access to better players.

While nothing in football is guaranteed, and you can have a season where things go very wrong, the trend towards getting to the later stages of cup competitions is happening by design, rather than accident.

It won’t be a smooth upward trend all the time, there will be bumps along the way as we’ve seen already, but plan and ambitions that the club are working towards are very much about making us a consistently successful (by most measures) side.

Through the STF and Petrie days, the club strategy was to do the most with the money were brought in -spend a pound less than we take in, and given the owner’s preferences for how he saw the club, that was about as good a strategy as we could get - build the infrastructure and make that money work for you.

We now have an opener with a bit more of an appetite for calculated risk and I’d be amazed if Ron Gordon’s eventual exit strategy doesn’t involve him handing over a much bigger, much more successful club than the one he took over.

Yip! I remember Fergus McCann rode off into the sunset with a young blonde Glaswegian Lawyer on his arm

If Ron can do half as good a job I will be happy

Seem to remember McCann getting nothing but abuse from the best supporters in the land

I digress :greengrin

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Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs

I understand what you mean, i'd have loved to win the cup this season and finished 5th or 6th, but we dont get that choice it would be good if we did.:greengrin

Can you imagine this board had we lost more matches than we actually did, and the team was languishing outside a European place before the quarters or the semi or even the final ?

The frothers would be wanting everyone from the manager down to the tea lady sacked for such a horrendous season, some of our horror shows would be slaughtered for weeks and the negativity would know no bounds.

But everything would turn out ok in the end, because we would have won the cup. :greengrin

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As a well known frother yourself, don’t be blaming that solely on others.

:wink: