The Trans Rights Debate

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Originally Posted by He's here!

https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1638829266291793921

"You cannot come on my show and talk about how Labour want to tackle violence against women and then refer to a double rapist as 'she'!'

After the part the GRR shambles played in Sturgeon's downfall, it's little wonder Starmer has made it clear that "gender recognition will not be one of the priorities of the incoming Labour government."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...rans-ideology/

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Horrible state of affairs when denying equal rights for a minority group gets votes.

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

Horrible state of affairs when denying equal rights for a minority group gets votes.

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Equal rights are not effected thanks to the equality act. Only thing that has changed recently is in athletics, but that is about preserving the rights of women

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Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..

How do you address them instead of Mr or Mrs Blloggs?

As in, Dear "xxx" Bloggs ??

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Or Dear XY Bloggs 🤔

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Equal rights are not effected thanks to the equality act. Only thing that has changed recently is in athletics, but that is about preserving the rights of women

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ie maintaining women's sport as a meaningful entity. Sharron Davies is right to call for the ban to extend beyond international level.

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Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..

How do you address them instead of Mr or Mrs Blloggs?

As in, Dear "xxx" Bloggs ??

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Just use their name?

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Originally Posted by He's here!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

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Its good to see common sense in the world of athletics, the only way woman's sport can be a fair sport is if it's a protected category for biological women only, ie for people born female. The reason is simply because it's not possible to change your sex, no human being has ever changed their sex. A compromise could be an open category, so that trans people are not excluded from sport.

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Originally Posted by 147lothian

Its good to see common sense in the world of athletics, the only way woman's sport can be a fair sport is if it's a protected category for biological women only, ie for people born female. The reason is simply because it's not possible to change your sex, no human being has ever changed their sex. A compromise could be an open category, so that trans people are not excluded from sport.

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Isn’t the men’s category an open category?


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https://www.thenational.scot/news/23...gender-reform/

Yousaf will follow Sturgeon through the ice by persisting with the GRR according to Rowling.

She was spot on months ago about how damaging it would prove for Sturgeon.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23...gender-reform/

Yousaf will follow Sturgeon through the ice by persisting with the GRR according to Rowling.

She was spot on months ago about how damaging it would prove for Sturgeon.

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Her last two tweets ripping Yousaf have 6 million views and 50,000 likes between them already, numbers newspapers could only dream of. She's a very loud voice rightly or wrongly

@jk_rowling
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@HumzaYousaf is the kid who just saw the skater in front of him disappear through the ice, but yells 'watch me, everybody!' while wobbling straight for the hole

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65181018

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Just use their name?

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So on an official letter to someone, instead of addressing it "Dear Mrs Bloggs" we write "Dear Mary Bloggs"?

How do we differentiate between formal and informal when writing letters? Or are you saying we just scrap all that for trans people?

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Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..

So on an official letter to someone, instead of addressing it "Dear Mrs Bloggs" we write "Dear Mary Bloggs"?

How do we differentiate between formal and informal when writing letters? Or are you saying we just scrap all that for trans people?

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Send an email and start it "Hi Mary" :greengrin

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Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..

So on an official letter to someone, instead of addressing it "Dear Mrs Bloggs" we write "Dear Mary Bloggs"?

How do we differentiate between formal and informal when writing letters? Or are you saying we just scrap all that for trans people?

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Why not? It's fairly common these days, and nothing to do with trans issues. Language evolves, as do styles of letter writing.

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Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..

So on an official letter to someone, instead of addressing it "Dear Mrs Bloggs" we write "Dear Mary Bloggs"?

How do we differentiate between formal and informal when writing letters? Or are you saying we just scrap all that for trans people?

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Official vs unofficial is a human construct that's dying out anyway, is it such a great loss?

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65181018

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This is fine as long as gender identity based rights are defined in a way that covers transphobia and transmisogyny.

They won't be though, because Tories just want culture war at the risk of a vulnerable minority.

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Originally Posted by McSwanky

Official vs unofficial is a human construct that's dying out anyway, is it such a great loss?

Sent from my YAL-L21 using Tapatalk

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I don't know what a human construct is but I think using proper language is important.

Same as dressing smart to go to work or on a night out or to a wedding. You don't have to, but it's still mostly the done thing.

I don't want my bank , or doctor, or anyone really, writing to me using txt speak for example.

We don't need to dumb everything down to the lowest level. Let's keep some standards in society!

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Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..

I don't know what a human construct is but I think using proper language is important.

Same as dressing smart to go to work or on a night out or to a wedding. You don't have to, but it's still mostly the done thing.

I don't want my bank , or doctor, or anyone really, writing to me using txt speak for example.

We don't need to dumb everything down to the lowest level. Let's keep some standards in society!

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Standards in society have long gone.

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Originally Posted by 500miles

This is fine as long as gender identity based rights are defined in a way that covers transphobia and transmisogyny.

They won't be though, because Tories just want culture war at the risk of a vulnerable minority.

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I'd agree.

I'm not sure this has been thought through properly. An early observation is that , under these proposals, trans men would be allowed in female-only spaces.

Also, I've just read that the guidance includes the phrase "legally lesbian". Deary me.

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Originally Posted by 500miles

This is fine as long as gender identity based rights are defined in a way that covers transphobia and transmisogyny.

They won't be though, because Tories just want culture war at the risk of a vulnerable minority.

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Labour are also backing the proposals.

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Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..

I don't know what a human construct is but I think using proper language is important.

Same as dressing smart to go to work or on a night out or to a wedding. You don't have to, but it's still mostly the done thing.

I don't want my bank , or doctor, or anyone really, writing to me using txt speak for example.

We don't need to dumb everything down to the lowest level. Let's keep some standards in society!

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A human construct is something that humans made up. No harm in questioning why we do something that we've always done is there?

It's not the same as dressing smart to go to work etc though, is it? You could just use the person's first name and keep the rest of the language the same.

Your comment on 'txt speak' is just hyperbole. Although sometimes I think doctors might benefit from a plain English course!

I agree with you on the last point, we don't need to dumb things down to the lowest level. But that's not really what were talking about here, it's it?

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Labour are also backing the proposals.

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Like I say, fine. But since we are (correctly in my opinion) restricting the definition of sex to definable and measurable biology, we need to ensure that people who believe in the concept of gender identity are appropriately protected. Labour may actually do that, while Tories are just looking to stir up a fight.

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Originally Posted by 500miles

Like I say, fine. But since we are (correctly in my opinion) restricting the definition of sex to definable and measurable biology, we need to ensure that people who believe in the concept of gender identity are appropriately protected. Labour may actually do that, while Tories are just looking to stir up a fight.

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Isn't the central tension though? How to balance rights of people to a single sex spaces as defined by biology with rights for people who identify as a gender? The Isla Bryson case being an extreme example.

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Originally Posted by archie

Isn't the central tension though? How to balance rights of people to a single sex spaces as defined by biology with rights for people who identify as a gender? The Isla Bryson case being an extreme example.

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It is, but that tension remains by not actually dealing with the reality of the situation that a) there is a need for protections based on biology b) there is a need for protections based on gender.

The current laws don't appear to be designed with the idea of sex and gender as separate and that is the society we live in. Unfortunately we have homophobes who will push back against any gender based protections, and trans extremists who will label sex based protections as transphobic because they don't enshrine a pseudo religious idea of gender at the centre of lawmaking.

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Originally Posted by 500miles

It is, but that tension remains by not actually dealing with the reality of the situation that a) there is a need for protections based on biology b) there is a need for protections based on gender.

The current laws don't appear to be designed with the idea of sex and gender as separate and that is the society we live in. Unfortunately we have homophobes who will push back against any gender based protections, and trans extremists who will label sex based protections as transphobic because they don't enshrine a pseudo religious idea of gender at the centre of lawmaking.

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Fine, but how do you sort that?

There's a really interesting podcast on Spotify, made by one of the people that left the Westboro Baptist Church, looking at Rowling's involvement in the trans rights debate, and the treatment of both trans people and gender-critical people - it's really interesting, though I wouldn't say it settles any issues, as much as it just demonstrates how immovable both sides are. (IMO, Rowling comes across a bit aloof, sort of claiming near-omniscience on the matter, whilst only presenting arguments against the most extreme voices in the pro-GRR debate - which is forgivable given what she has gone through, but also rather demonstrates that she's not really helped the discussion move forward at all).

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Originally Posted by archie

Fine, but how do you sort that?

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Beyond clarifying legislation, I don't think much changes from the status quo other than possibly actively prosecuting people who use thier access to sex protected spaces if they exploit them for sexual gratification. There's evidence on twitter of transwomen using women's spaces as a place to surruptitiously film sexual content. I think other women have as much right to feel threatened by that as they would if a cis male done it, and I would like to see it dealt with as a women's safety issue.

In terms of women's sport, athletes are regularly required to take medical tests, I think the idea that genetic testing would be markedly more invasive is disingenuous.

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Originally Posted by 500miles

Beyond clarifying legislation, I don't think much changes from the status quo other than possibly actively prosecuting people who use thier access to sex protected spaces if they exploit them for sexual gratification. There's evidence on twitter of transwomen using women's spaces as a place to surruptitiously film sexual content. I think other women have as much right to feel threatened by that as they would if a cis male done it, and I would like to see it dealt with as a women's safety issue.

In terms of women's sport, athletes are regularly required to take medical tests, I think the idea that genetic testing would be markedly more invasive is disingenuous.

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And, with all of that, goes education. Just as society was able to come to recognise that gay male teachers weren't, by definition, a threat to kids, so it will come to recognise that trans women, by definition, aren't a threat to cis women.

That, of course, takes time, probably a generation.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

And, with all of that, goes education. Just as society was able to come to recognise that gay male teachers weren't, by definition, a threat to kids, so it will come to recognise that trans women, by definition, aren't a threat to cis women.

That, of course, takes time, probably a generation.

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There's many that don't think they are a threat but want single sex situations. They won't ever be educated as its a valid opinion

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

There's many that don't think they are a threat but want single sex situations. They won't ever be educated as its a valid opinion

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In a generation, the likelihood is that they will be in the minority. That's the kind of societal shift that I'm suggesting, again just as it happened with LGB issues.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

In a generation, the likelihood is that they will be in the minority. That's the kind of societal shift that I'm suggesting, again just as it happened with LGB issues.

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I disagree. A large proportion of women will never want male bodied people doing female sports, using female refuges or being in mixed changing rooms even if males wish it. You'll disagree and the argument goes round.