SNP are lying b******s as well !

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Originally Posted by Santa Cruz

If making comparisons with other independent nations, it might be more helpful and persuasive to provide some stats to gain more insight. For example can you list the income tax rates in Denmark, Norway and Ireland, the amount of workers in their population who pay income tax, the percentage of workers who are public sector workers and the percentage of the population reliant on welfare payments. I'd find that information interesting and informative. TIA.

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I will try to dig that out when I’m on my computer on Monday, but the article Ozy has shared is a brilliant insight in to this.

Norway has one of the highest income tax rates in the world, but their level of public service is phenomenal and wages as a whole are a lot higher. This article explains

https://frifagbevegelse.no/foreign-workers/norway-does-not-have-a-common-minimum-wage-for-all-workers-here-we-explain-why-6.539.832584.eb1e6e70f1

A cleaner in Norway can expect a minimum wage of £16 per hour, with extra payment outside conventional hours.

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Originally Posted by WeeRussell

I can't help thinking you must have stronger arguments than the above for being so anti-independence surely, HH?

"those who appear to deem true 'Scottishness' to be dependent on supporting independence" Who are these people? I've still never encountered them.

"many who just don't see why we're so different from folk living in all parts of the UK" I guess it depends on what you mean by different. We don't, as a country vote tory, and we didn't vote for Brexit for example?

"What I also feel is overlooked by the nationalists is that for many their preference to remain British is irrespective of politics" Okay, but a decision on independence is very much a political one. And if our argument was that we just want to be 'Scottish' and not 'British' regardless of politics, we'd be scorned at with quotes of 'Braveheart' and 'anti English'

"Governments come and go." They do, but they are most often Tory, and never the one Scotland votes for.

"the SNP personify the worst traits of the stereotypical Scot (dour, humourless and with an incessant chip on their shoulder)" I won't entertain this with a retort about the traits of people like Boris and Jacob RM:greengrin

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This is kind of what I was alluding to in my earlier post when I referred to independence supporters finding it hard to fathom why those who voted no could possibly feel that way. There's a sense that we need to be schooled in the error of our ways.

I don't think I need 'stronger' arguments. As John Curtice has pointed out British identity was 'key to the 2014 referendum'. Commenting on the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey, he adds: "In so far as the independence debate is about identity, it is the intensity of people's British identity that matters, not that of their Scottish identity. Scottish identity is a near ubiquitous attachment that unites rather than divides most people in Scotland. It is how British they feel that divides them, and is reflected in differing attitudes in the independence debate."

Sure, the debate is about more than identity, but that's the crux of it for me and I think that's a reasonable and honest stance to take.

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Originally Posted by Santa Cruz

No probs, just think if you and other posters are going to make continual comparisons with other similarly sized nations, you might make a more persuasive case by providing some stats to back it up.

Re: your 2nd question, why would I, what purpose does it serve? We've voted already and the majority were happy to retain the current political set up.

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Have I made continual comparisons?

Anyway what would make Scotland so unique that it couldnt go along similar lines to other successful small Nations?

You don't think its odd that you can't name a similar set up outside the UK?

If it's the gold standard why isnt it mirrored elsewhere?

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Originally Posted by He's here!

This is kind of what I was alluding to in my earlier post when I referred to independence supporters finding it hard to fathom why those who voted no could possibly feel that way. There's a sense that we need to be schooled in the error of our ways.

I don't think I need 'stronger' arguments. As John Curtice has pointed out British identity was 'key to the 2014 referendum'. Commenting on the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey, he adds: "In so far as the independence debate is about identity, it is the intensity of people's British identity that matters, not that of their Scottish identity. Scottish identity is a near ubiquitous attachment that unites rather than divides most people in Scotland. It is how British they feel that divides them, and is reflected in differing attitudes in the independence debate."

Sure, the debate is about more than identity, but that's the crux of it for me and I think that's a reasonable and honest stance to take.

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Absolutely is reasonable and I appreciate your honesty 👍 I was being genuine when questioning if you had other reasons, as I assumed you would likely have some political reasons for your choice as well as the above.

Why is it that your arguments are reasonable and honest stances but when someone from the independence side puts their part of the debate over, they’re attempting to school you?

Do you therefore, based on the above, concede that you don’t see any political reason for us to remain part of the union, should there be another political referendum, and you’d be voting purely because you prefer to be identify as British than Scottish?

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Originally Posted by Santa Cruz

We've voted already and the majority were happy to retain the current political set up.

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It's a fair point, but what bothers me is the terms the last referendum were fought on. e.g. more powers for Scotland (remember Gordon Brown?) , a 'choice' on EU membership.

The first never happened (and there seems to be pressure from the incumbent government to go the other way) and the second didn't feel like much of a choice to me.

Things have changed considerably (including the EU's attitude towards an independent Scotland) since 2014.

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

Have I made continual comparisons?

Anyway what would make Scotland so unique that it couldnt go along similar lines to other successful small Nations?

You don't think its odd that you can't name a similar set up outside the UK?

If it's the gold standard why isnt it mirrored elsewhere?

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I did add other posters...it's not the first time these comparisons have been made.

To my knowledge Scotland has a fairly lowish percentage of workers who pay any income tax, we also have a fairly high percentage of public sector workers. Add to that people who are dependent on welfare payments and that adds up to a fair amount of revenue paid out and not so much recouped via the employment sector.

I don't think it's odd, because it's not me that's questioning it. Who said it's a gold standard btw?

I'm interested in more detail. Thanks Jones28 (don't know how to multiquote) an easy to read breakdown would be useful. Ozy's link is easy for most to understand I would imagine, your average voter wants easy to read and understand stats to make quicker comparisons.

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Originally Posted by McSwanky

It's a fair point, but what bothers me is the terms the last referendum were fought on. e.g. more powers for Scotland (remember Gordon Brown?) , a 'choice' on EU membership.

The first never happened (and there seems to be pressure from the incumbent government to go the other way) and the second didn't feel like much of a choice to me.

Things have changed considerably (including the EU's attitude towards an independent Scotland) since 2014.

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I understand that. The problem the SNP have with the EU argument being the main reason for another referendum is, a fair number of Labour and Tory voters, voted to remain, some of the Labour vote may still favour re-joining the EU over remaining in the UK. I don't see many Tory voters dong that. Also nearly a third of the leave voters are SNP voters and then there's the 30% who weren't even bothered enough to vote. On that basis I think they have a job on their hand making this the main reason to vote for Indy.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

This is kind of what I was alluding to in my earlier post when I referred to independence supporters finding it hard to fathom why those who voted no could possibly feel that way. There's a sense that we need to be schooled in the error of our ways.

I don't think I need 'stronger' arguments. As John Curtice has pointed out British identity was 'key to the 2014 referendum'. Commenting on the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey, he adds: "In so far as the independence debate is about identity, it is the intensity of people's British identity that matters, not that of their Scottish identity. Scottish identity is a near ubiquitous attachment that unites rather than divides most people in Scotland. It is how British they feel that divides them, and is reflected in differing attitudes in the independence debate."

Sure, the debate is about more than identity, but that's the crux of it for me and I think that's a reasonable and honest stance to take.

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I agree with this. If you feel British then that’s the single best reason to vote for the union. It’s an honest stance to take.
Luckily for us supporters of Indy, every new generation feels less and less British.


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Originally Posted by Santa Cruz

I did add other posters...it's not the first time these comparisons have been made.

To my knowledge Scotland has a fairly lowish percentage of workers who pay any income tax, we also have a fairly high percentage of public sector workers. Add to that people who are dependent on welfare payments and that adds up to a fair amount of revenue paid out and not so much recouped via the employment sector.

I don't think it's odd, because it's not me that's questioning it. Who said it's a gold standard btw?

I'm interested in more detail. Thanks Jones28 (don't know how to multiquote) an easy to read breakdown would be useful. Ozy's link is easy for most to understand I would imagine, your average voter wants easy to read and understand stats to make quicker comparisons.

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If its not the gold standard why would anyone vote for it to remain in place?

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

If its not the gold standard why would anyone vote for it to remain in place?

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A multitude of reasons would be my guess.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I agree with this. If you feel British then that’s the single best reason to vote for the union. It’s an honest stance to take.
Luckily for us supporters of Indy, every new generation feels less and less British.


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I don’t feel particularly British and I am definitely Scottish first. I maybe feel more British when there is an olympics taking place but that’s it.

My reasons for preferring remaining in the UK are that for all its faults, and there are many, Scotland as a nation and the Scottish people are better served being in the UK.

I do find the position on the EU to be a new dynamic. I think we do 60% of our trade with the UK but we may be aiming to create a border that will make trade more difficult and then try to change the nature of our trading relationships. I also agree with an earlier poster that not all independence supporters see the EU as the way forward and if comes to the crunch there may be another big divide at that time.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I agree with this. If you feel British then that’s the single best reason to vote for the union. It’s an honest stance to take. Luckily for us supporters of Indy, every new generation feels less and less British.

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It is an honest stance to take, you're right.

My issue is that in 2022 being British means you need to align yourself with the far right English Tory party who wants a low tax, low benefits, everyman-for-himself economy, a country where immigrants are not valued, where zero hours contracts prevail and workers' rights don't exist, where food standards and environmental standards are diminished, and there is no NHS. If that's the sort of country you want to live in, stick with the union.

That's not for me.

It doesn't look like many of the British nationalists on here have been persuaded yet. Many of them seem happy enough with what they have. The Scottish Parliament being bypassed by the UkGov in devolved areas. That's ok though, as long as we feel British. Whatever the next referendum brings, a targeted approach to the waverers is where we'll win, along with the youth vote. This thread has really just highlighted in a few posts how the British nationalists feel about Scotland.

Where's your money tree.

Prove you can be as good as other small nations.

Whilst being accepting of the current regime in London.

When we win the pensioners, we win.

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Originally Posted by Skol

My reasons for preferring remaining in the UK are that for all its faults, and there are many, Scotland as a nation and the Scottish people are better served being in the UK.

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You were posting at the same time as I was so I didn't see this.

I understand where you're coming from, but for the reasons stated in my previous post, I don't believe we are "better served being in the UK". The UK - or rather England - is lurching in a very unsavoury direction and we'll be far better served outside of it, IMO.

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Originally Posted by Skol

I don’t feel particularly British and I am definitely Scottish first. I maybe feel more British when there is an olympics taking place but that’s it.

My reasons for preferring remaining in the UK are that for all its faults, and there are many, Scotland as a nation and the Scottish people are better served being in the UK.

I do find the position on the EU to be a new dynamic. I think we do 60% of our trade with the UK but we may be aiming to create a border that will make trade more difficult and then try to change the nature of our trading relationships. I also agree with an earlier poster that not all independence supporters see the EU as the way forward and if comes to the crunch there may be another big divide at that time.

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Your second para. What's the evidence for this? Where are we being better served?

Quote from an old Private Eye article.

The whole way politics is conducted in Scotland has changed beyond recognition and anyone deluded into believing there is anything liberal or progressive about that should consider the case study of Blackford versus Kennedy. They might be reminded that other people’s Nationalisms invariably look more attractive from a safe distance. Charles Kennedy, the good man, died three weeks after losing his seat. The poison of the campaign did not kill him but it robbed him of peace and dignity in the last months of his life. Democratic politics need never be like that. As one of Charles’s staff, David Green, told the programme: ‘Because you don’t believe in a certain constitutional outcome for the country you deeply care about, that doesn’t make you a Quisling or a traitor… It just means you have a different viewpoint.’

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

It doesn't look like many of the British nationalists on here have been persuaded yet. Many of them seem happy enough with what they have. The Scottish Parliament being bypassed by the UkGov in devolved areas. That's ok though, as long as we feel British. Whatever the next referendum brings, a targeted approach to the waverers is where we'll win, along with the youth vote. This thread has really just highlighted in a few posts how the British nationalists feel about Scotland.

Where's your money tree.

Prove you can be as good as other small nations.

Whilst being accepting of the current regime in London.

When we win the pensioners, we win.

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British nationalists is exactly why it’s impossible to have any sensible debate.

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Originally Posted by Skol

British nationalists is exactly why it’s impossible to have any sensible debate.

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Their really isn't anything wrong with it. Scottish nationalist, British nationalist. English nationalist, they're all used in the free British press.

What's wrong with it?

Go and have a look at the latest piece from David leask, a respected journalist. He's covering British nationalism in one of his pieces.

.....

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Originally Posted by He's here!

I don't think I need 'stronger' arguments. As John Curtice has pointed out British identity was 'key to the 2014 referendum'. Commenting on the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey, he adds: "In so far as the independence debate is about identity, it is the intensity of people's British identity that matters, not that of their Scottish identity. Scottish identity is a near ubiquitous attachment that unites rather than divides most people in Scotland. It is how British they feel that divides them, and is reflected in differing attitudes in the independence debate."

Sure, the debate is about more than identity, but that's the crux of it for me and I think that's a reasonable and honest stance to take.

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The result of the forthcoming census will be a good indication of what people think, whether they identify as Scottish, British or something else is one of the questions.

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Originally Posted by Santa Cruz

Quote from an old Private Eye article.

The whole way politics is conducted in Scotland has changed beyond recognition and anyone deluded into believing there is anything liberal or progressive about that should consider the case study of Blackford versus Kennedy. They might be reminded that other people’s Nationalisms invariably look more attractive from a safe distance. Charles Kennedy, the good man, died three weeks after losing his seat. The poison of the campaign did not kill him but it robbed him of peace and dignity in the last months of his life. Democratic politics need never be like that. As one of Charles’s staff, David Green, told the programme: ‘Because you don’t believe in a certain constitutional outcome for the country you deeply care about, that doesn’t make you a Quisling or a traitor… It just means you have a different viewpoint.’

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I haven’t seen anyone called a quisling or a traitor on these boards for probably about 7-8 years. What’s the relevance of the part in bold to what has been a pretty respectful discussion over the last few days by both sides of the debate?

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Originally Posted by CapitalGreen

I haven’t seen anyone called a quisling or a traitor on these boards for probably about 7-8 years. What’s the relevance of the part in bold to what has been a pretty respectful discussion over the last few days by both sides of the debate?

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It's a quote from the article?!

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

It's a quote from the article?!

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I know it is, I’m just not sure of it’s relevance and why the part in bold has been highlighted during what has been a respectful debate unless someone felt they were being called a quisling or a traitor.

I see that loathsome Patrick Harvie has attempted to liken Ukraine's plight to that of Scotland ahead of the Greens' party conference, despite Sturgeon distancing the Scottish government from similarly crass comments by Mike Russell last week. It's bampots like him who will hopefully help to erode confidence in what an independent SNP/Greens government might look like.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

I see that loathsome Patrick Harvie has attempted to liken Ukraine's plight to that of Scotland ahead of the Greens' party conference, despite Sturgeon distancing the Scottish government from similarly crass comments by Mike Russell last week. It's bampots like him who will hopefully help to erode confidence in what an independent SNP/Greens government might look like.

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Who has suggested there will be a SNP/Greens government in an independent Scotland?

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Originally Posted by He's here!

I see that loathsome Patrick Harvie has attempted to liken Ukraine's plight to that of Scotland ahead of the Greens' party conference, despite Sturgeon distancing the Scottish government from similarly crass comments by Mike Russell last week. It's bampots like him who will hopefully help to erode confidence in what an independent SNP/Greens government might look like.

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Lucky being part of the UK means we never have loathsome idiots running the country.[emoji849]


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Lucky being part of the UK means we never have loathsome idiots running the country.[emoji849]


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I agree, but that does not mean we don’t have loathsome idiots running Scotland. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by CapitalGreen

I haven’t seen anyone called a quisling or a traitor on these boards for probably about 7-8 years. What’s the relevance of the part in bold to what has been a pretty respectful discussion over the last few days by both sides of the debate?

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Apologies, I'll try again. Didn't mean to cause any disrespect. This was the part that struck a chord with me.

Because you don’t believe in a certain constitutional outcome for the country you deeply care about, It just means you have a different viewpoint.’

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Originally Posted by WeeRussell

Absolutely is reasonable and I appreciate your honesty 👍 I was being genuine when questioning if you had other reasons, as I assumed you would likely have some political reasons for your choice as well as the above.

Why is it that your arguments are reasonable and honest stances but when someone from the independence side puts their part of the debate over, they’re attempting to school you?

Do you therefore, based on the above, concede that you don’t see any political reason for us to remain part of the union, should there be another political referendum, and you’d be voting purely because you prefer to be identify as British than Scottish?

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Again with the yes, but...:wink:

Fair enough, all I meant was I'm just putting my point of view across and that view really is as straightforward as it appears.

FWIW though, in the event of another referendum my 'political' stance would be that because I don't agree with the SNP's raison d'etre (ie the break-up of the UK) I could never vote for it. Like many others, I identify as Scottish AND British so yes I'd prefer to remain that way.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

FWIW though, in the event of another referendum my 'political' stance would be that because I don't agree with the SNP's raison d'etre (ie the break-up of the UK) I could never vote for it. Like many others, I identify as Scottish AND British so yes I'd prefer to remain that way.

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So you'll be happy with the privatisation of the NHS then? Because that's what you'll get.