Hamas attack on Israel

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Not related but I'd read in 30 years violent attacks are down 83% and burglaries 86% in the uk, maybe one for the beer at football thread ha. Early 90s must have been radge but I'd think some people think it's worse now, due to every crime being reported whether that is on the news or locally through social media

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Not to disbelieve your stats but find the violent attacks figure remarkable. I would have thought the state on London alone at the moment enough to skyrocket that figure. I wonder if even though the number is down, the severity might be up?

Edinburgh (and probably other Scottish city’s) on the hand i would figure the chances of being attacked by a stranger are now really low and I certainly feel safe even walking through the ‘rougher areas’ for the most part at any time of day or night.

There must have been a lot of houses getting screwed in the 90s but i suppose the nature of housebreakings is very different now. No more searching for cash or electronics. Just car keys and jewellery now.

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Originally Posted by Paul1642

Not to disbelieve your stats but find the violent attacks figure remarkable. I would have thought the state on London alone at the moment enough to skyrocket that figure. I wonder if even though the number is down, the severity might be up?

Edinburgh (and probably other Scottish city’s) on the hand i would figure the chances of being attacked by a stranger are now really low and I certainly feel safe even walking through the ‘rougher areas’ for the most part at any time of day or night.

There must have been a lot of houses getting screwed in the 90s but i suppose the nature of housebreakings is very different now. No more searching for cash or electronics. Just car keys and jewellery now.

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It's all types of reported violent crimes uk wide. Hospital admissions in London for stabbings is pretty much flat over the last 15 years. The difference if someone was stabbed in London then no chance would we know about it as it wouldn't be national news worthy. Now though we'll get videos of it on twitter and possibly videos sent in group chats. London is a safe city but it's massive with a bigger pop than Scotland, people will get hurt but we will now hear about it. I guess the camera phones and cctv make it harder for nutters to get away with it or repeat it without consequence.
Off topic sorry

https://policinginsight.com/feature/analysis/most-crime-has-fallen-by-90-in-30-years-so-why-does-the-public-think-its-increased/

Most crime has fallen by 90% in 30 years – so why does the public think it’s increased?


Seventy-eight per cent of people in England and Wales think that crime has gone up in the last few years, according to the latest survey. But the data on actual crime shows the exact opposite

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...and-and-wales/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...imes-scotland/

Starmer calling for a ceasefire. I would have thought he would have more to say than that? A ceasefire would be a nice thing to have and there will always be people calling for it but would have thought the PM would realise that there is zero chance of that happening just now and that we might have heard more about how he thinks it could happen?


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Originally Posted by Andy Bee

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...and-and-wales/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...imes-scotland/

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An older article on the difference in the recording and the three crime survey that shows the huge drop is better in their opinion, **** knows though.

https://theconversation.com/fact-check-has-violent-crime-gone-up-40915

First, police-recorded crime statistics: these include incidents that come to the attention of the police and are recorded by them as “crimes”. Second, the Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW): this is a very large, rolling annual survey of sizeable sample of the population. Both sources have their problems, but it is generally the crime survey that is considered the more reliable indicator of the two.

The data from the crime survey is very clear. Violent crime has been in almost continual decline since the mid-1990s and current estimates suggest it is at its lowest level since the survey was instituted at the beginning of the 1980s.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Starmer calling for a ceasefire. I would have thought he would have more to say than that? A ceasefire would be a nice thing to have and there will always be people calling for it but would have thought the PM would realise that there is zero chance of that happening just now and that we might have heard more about how he thinks it could happen?


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Isn't it the same as when we called for a ceasefire in Gaza at the start of the year. It was never going to happen but it was us just saying what we wished for.

There is clearly going to be retaliation but Israel is saying only one death and minimal damage so how hard can they go.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Isn't it the same as when we called for a ceasefire in Gaza at the start of the year. It was never going to happen but it was us just saying what we wished for.

There is clearly going to be retaliation but Israel is saying only one death and minimal damage so how hard can they go.

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They have said they will hit back at a time of their choosing, Iran have also come out and said that if Israel or the US hit any of their oil fields then they will take out the oil fields in Saudi, Kuwait, Bahrain etc

Mental times all because the US and UK haven't gone hard enough in getting Israel to calm the **** down with their warmongering and genocide

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Originally Posted by Mon Dieu4

They have said they will hit back at a time of their choosing, Iran have also come out and said that if Israel or the US hit any of their oil fields then they will take out the oil fields in Saudi, Kuwait, Bahrain etc

Mental times all because the US and UK haven't gone hard enough in getting Israel to calm the **** down with their warmongering and genocide

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I noticed 2 of my neighbours got oil delivered today, wonder if they know something you don't? 🤣

https://x.com/theinsiderpaper/status...dxJXScFNwz8V4A

Iran says they are done unless Isreal hits back. They don’t mean they are done funding Hezbollah to hit Isreal though.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Haven’t seen recent stats but the world has mostly got less violent over the years. 24 hour tv news just means we hear more about it.


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Despite your reference to more extensive news coverage, I find it hard to agree with your premise that the world is less violent nowadays. Like you, I don’t have statistics but just gut feelings.
Ozyhibby, I admire your constant downplaying and optimistic view of international issues, such as the ongoing wars, Putin’s possible if not probable escalation of warmongering at an earth shattering level and the possible, to my mind likely, disastrous return of Trump to major politics and I would love to think you are correct, but at this moment in time I find the prospects for world peace and harmony depressing and worrying.

UK and US troops were involved in shooting down the missiles fired at Israel, as if supplying them with the weapons they're launching at women and children wasn't involved enough we actually help with their Iron Dome or whatever it's called.

I don't want to see any lives lost on either side but at what point are we dropping the pretense that we aren't at war with whoever it is Israel wants to pick a fight with?

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Originally Posted by Jones28

UK and US troops were involved in shooting down the missiles fired at Israel, as if supplying them with the weapons they're launching at women and children wasn't involved enough we actually help with their Iron Dome or whatever it's called.

I don't want to see any lives lost on either side but at what point are we dropping the pretense that we aren't at war with whoever it is Israel wants to pick a fight with?

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Isn’t it Iran picking a fight with Isreal? When it comes to Gaza and West Bank I’m firmly on the side of the Palestinians but Lebanon and Iran are firing rockets at Isreal.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Isn’t it Iran picking a fight with Isreal? When it comes to Gaza and West Bank I’m firmly on the side of the Palestinians but Lebanon and Iran are firing rockets at Isreal.


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why do you think they are doing it though? is it really as simple as 'just to pick a fight'?

the other thing to bear in mind is that Iran know fine well that their rockets aren't going to cause anything other than financial damage to Israel (though tbf, the rocket attacks would have been absolutely terrifying for those living in Israel)

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Isn’t it Iran picking a fight with Isreal? When it comes to Gaza and West Bank I’m firmly on the side of the Palestinians but Lebanon and Iran are firing rockets at Isreal.


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Personally I think both sides are cultivating an environment in which War will be the only option.

Look as Isreals posturing since the missile attack - they are threatening retaliation despite zero casualties.

Why? They can swat missiles out the air and stick the two fingers up at Iran without having to retaliate.

I don't have any skin in the game other than wanting it all to stop because if it does kick off it will turn in to a proxy war between the West and the Russians which could lead to anything. Russia have a lot of skin in the game with Syria and Iran.

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Originally Posted by Jones28

UK and US troops were involved in shooting down the missiles fired at Israel, as if supplying them with the weapons they're launching at women and children wasn't involved enough we actually help with their Iron Dome or whatever it's called.

I don't want to see any lives lost on either side but at what point are we dropping the pretense that we aren't at war with whoever it is Israel wants to pick a fight with?

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tbf, this is the one thing we actually SHOULD be helping with (and I'm glad we are) - an unfortunate side effect of it, however, is that it contributes to Israel being able to act with relative impunity towards its neighbours/colonised people.

the thing is though - we are the main reason Israel NEEDS an iron dome, because we very consciously and deliberately set it up to be, and i quote, 'a loyal little Ulster in the Middle East'. We betrayed the victims of the holocaust, and outsourced Europe's massive anti-semitism problem onto the Middle East. (I've only recently realised how bad this is, and actually started learning Yiddish in solidarity with my Jewish pals).

Israel is behaving as it always has - as a settler colonial power. This is how we built it, and how we have encouraged it to behave. Present hostilities are very significantly shaped by this, and the cold war (in terms of Iran).

This is the moral landscape of the present conflict in Israel. The 'save democracy' thing is absolute horse-**** propaganda, trying to rally support amongst Western Liberals. It's window dressing in terms of what's going on, and not even true if you ask a lot of Israelis, who would say that they are ruled by a fascist dictator in Bibi.

EDIT: just in case it seems from any of the above that I'm saying Israel shouldn't exist, I am absolutely not - I just think we deliberately shanked it to further our interests, and THIS is what needs fixing, as it is the root of Hamas, Hezbollah and all the rest.

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Originally Posted by AgentDaleCooper

tbf, this is the one thing we actually SHOULD be helping with (and I'm glad we are) - an unfortunate side effect of it, however, is that it contributes to Israel being able to act with relative impunity towards its neighbours/colonised people.

the thing is though - we are the main reason Israel NEEDS an iron dome, because we very consciously and deliberately set it up to be, and i quote, 'a loyal little Ulster in the Middle East'. We betrayed the victims of the holocaust, and outsourced Europe's massive anti-semitism problem onto the Middle East. (I've only recently realised how bad this is, and actually started learning Yiddish in solidarity with my Jewish pals).

Israel is behaving as it always has - as a settler colonial power. This is how we built it, and how we have encouraged it to behave. Present hostilities are very significantly shaped by this, and the cold war (in terms of Iran).

This is the moral landscape of the present conflict in Israel. The 'save democracy' thing is absolute horse-**** propaganda, trying to rally support amongst Western Liberals. It's window dressing in terms of what's going on, and not even true if you ask a lot of Israelis, who would say that they are ruled by a fascist dictator in Bibi.

EDIT: just in case it seems from any of the above that I'm saying Israel shouldn't exist, I am absolutely not - I just think we deliberately shanked it to further our interests, and THIS is what needs fixing, as it is the root of Hamas, Hezbollah and all the rest.

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I think your History is probably correct but doesn’t help us now. We need to find a way to a two state solution. All parties are going to have to give things up for that to happen.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

I think your History is probably correct but doesn’t help us now. We need to find a way to a two state solution. All parties are going to have to give things up for that to happen.


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I agree, but the problem is that Hamas and their allies (and tbh anyone in the region bar Israel and to an extent Saudi Arabia) have absolutely no reason to trust the intentions of any of the big players in brokering such a deal. Palestine is supported by just about every country in the UN, save for the ones who actually have any say...who also happen to be the ones giving their oppressors all their weapons.

The other issue is simply what do Palestinians have left to compromise? They have barely anything left, yet the west continues to let Israel act without consequence in the West Bank. You can even book an AirBnB in the settlements, FFS.

The west needs to radically alter its approach and the way it supports Israel's existence. The only morally justifiable approach I can think of is for them to say "look, if you want protection against Iran, you need to get completely out of the West Bank and Gaza by date X", because THAT is the point at which 'compromise' can start to be meaningful, and you can start talking about getting rid of Hamas. Let's not forget, Bibi actually gave them financial support when they were being set up in the 80s, because he saw them (correctly) as a destabilising force.

I get the appeal of pragmatism, but in situations like this, at best all you're doing is kicking the can down the road and hoping the problem doesn't get any worse (which it always does). That's what we've done before, and IMO that's what set the stage for the attacks last year.

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Yeah I was in shock at how they pulled it off, setting up companies years in advanced. Probably the most successful spy operation ever. Horrible army's like the Nazis or the UK in India can have amazing military operations, doesn't make them not horrendous.

Operation Greif by the Nazis was amazing. Soldiers dressed in US uniforms flew in behind enemy lines and caused havoc. They started directing tanks convoys down wrong roads, destroyed ammunition dumps, switched road signs and cut electric and phone lines. When it was uncovered the US had to use a lot of men to set up road blocks all over. The more famous operation mincemeat was cool too

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Yet they knew nothing about October 7th? Beggars belief.

Or they let October 7th happen to give them pretext to flatten Gaza and destroy Hamas and Hezbolla.

J

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Originally Posted by Jones28

UK and US troops were involved in shooting down the missiles fired at Israel, as if supplying them with the weapons they're launching at women and children wasn't involved enough we actually help with their Iron Dome or whatever it's called.

I don't want to see any lives lost on either side but at what point are we dropping the pretense that we aren't at war with whoever it is Israel wants to pick a fight with?

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No way we helped with Iron Dome. The opposite is true. Our Sky Sabre air defence system has something similar to the Israeli Iron Dome system and is provided by the Israelis to the British Army.

My guess is the U.K. Provided some real time intel on missiles over Syria. (Remember we are still flying and bombing over there vs Deash).

J

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Originally Posted by Bristolhibby

Yet they knew nothing about October 7th? Beggars belief.

Or they let October 7th happen to give them pretext to flatten Gaza and destroy Hamas and Hezbolla.

J

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Netanyahu has made a career out of bolstering Hamas and outright encouraging financing of them, particularly from Qatar. There is an irony that this was something of a scandal in Israel itself a couple of years ago, with the Haaretz newspaper doing some serious investigative journalism, but is largely ignored or perhaps unknown in the west. The New York Times ran a piece on it last year in the wake off the October 7th attacks and were promptly set upon by the Anti Defamation League and other Israeli lobbyists for being 'anti Semitic'. Quite how uncovering some pretty shady political shenanigans by a fascist warmonger is anti Semitic is anyone's guess but it's a cry that generally works in silencing anyone who gets a bit too critical of the Israeli government, particularly the incumbent one.

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Originally Posted by Jones28

Personally I think both sides are cultivating an environment in which War will be the only option.

Look as Isreals posturing since the missile attack - they are threatening retaliation despite zero casualties.

Why? They can swat missiles out the air and stick the two fingers up at Iran without having to retaliate.

I don't have any skin in the game other than wanting it all to stop because if it does kick off it will turn in to a proxy war between the West and the Russians which could lead to anything. Russia have a lot of skin in the game with Syria and Iran.

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One casualty, innocent Palestinian man working in a field. Suspect Isreal won’t be retaliating on his behalf though.

remains of a missile in southern israel, what a size

Attachment 28191

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Originally Posted by Lendo

One casualty, innocent Palestinian man working in a field. Suspect Isreal won’t be retaliating on his behalf though.

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Apologies, 1 is too many.

Just the 24 health workers killed by Israel in the last day.

And over a million displaced by their invasion of Lebanon.

Powerful stuff

https://x.com/hzomlot/status/1843562992811774310

How come it passes largely without comment by western leaders that Israel has developed a habit of telling people to leave a certain area then subsequently blowing **** out of the major roads out of said area? Usually when there are a fair few people using said roads to follow Israeli demands. Happened multiple times in Gaza and again in Lebanon.

To their credit it is something the BBC has reported on regularly.

Israel won't be happy until they have blown the hell out of Lebanon and left it in the same uninhabitable mess that Gaza is.

A scorched earth policy that the Nazis would have been proud of.

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

How come it passes largely without comment by western leaders that Israel has developed a habit of telling people to leave a certain area then subsequently blowing **** out of the major roads out of said area? Usually when there are a fair few people using said roads to follow Israeli demands. Happened multiple times in Gaza and again in Lebanon.

To their credit it is something the BBC has reported on regularly.

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The other thing I can never understand is bombing a hospital, bombing a uni, bombing a school...then it's yeah but it's a hamas headquarters. Is it ever fact checked, ever? Do Isreal seriously have the right to bomb whatever they want, call it a hamas headquarters then that's it justified?

CNN showing drone footage of a Lebanese village on the border with Israel, simply validates the scorched earth policy Israel is implementing.

It's just a burnt out shell.

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Originally Posted by easty

The other thing I can never understand is bombing a hospital, bombing a uni, bombing a school...then it's yeah but it's a hamas headquarters. Is it ever fact checked, ever? Do Isreal seriously have the right to bomb whatever they want, call it a hamas headquarters then that's it justified?

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Starmer, Biden, Harris et al just mouth worthless words at Israel, continue to allow war machinery to be sold to them and feign concern for the civilians. And Rayner sits with the Israeli ambassador who says that “every school, every mosque, every hospital, every 2nd house, is a legitimate target”. She was obviously worried that saying every house might be a bit much.Todays Labour Party, genocide apologists and enablers. Shameful

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcas...=1000672195124

Really worth a listen on the events of the last year.


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Originally Posted by grunt

Powerful stuff

https://x.com/hzomlot/status/1843562992811774310

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Jeez that really hits hard.

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Originally Posted by DaveF

CNN showing drone footage of a Lebanese village on the border with Israel, simply validates the scorched earth policy Israel is implementing.

It's just a burnt out shell.

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It could just as easily have been footage from Gaza. Its tragic. And a scandal. Surely not Hezbollah in every property?

Israel needs to be stopped, but the 'leaders' in the UK, US, Germany, etc, wouldn't dare do anything about it.

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Originally Posted by Keith_M

Israel needs to be stopped, but the 'leaders' in the UK, US, Germany, etc, wouldn't dare do anything about it.

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Rumoured tonight that the Americans have told the Israelis if they go for the nuclear sites in Iran that they (the yanks) won’t get involved in any defence of an Iranian response. Whether that’s accurate is unclear at this time though.

Israel fires at a UN base and injures 2 UN personnel. The UN also said that Israelis deliberately shooting at security cameras and yet more health workers are killed.

This murderous mob are out of control and no one is willing to reign them in.

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Originally Posted by tamig

Rumoured tonight that the Americans have told the Israelis if they go for the nuclear sites in Iran that they (the yanks) won’t get involved in any defence of an Iranian response. Whether that’s accurate is unclear at this time though.

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Bold from Biden / Harris with weeks to go to the election. They will be praying Israel doesn’t attack Iran. Or at least wait until 6th November.

J

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Originally Posted by grunt

Powerful stuff

https://x.com/hzomlot/status/1843562992811774310

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Wow heartbreaking and powerful and true

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Originally Posted by Bristolhibby

Bold from Biden / Harris with weeks to go to the election. They will be praying Israel doesn’t attack Iran. Or at least wait until 6th November.

J

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It's almost as if Netanyahu ist trying to help Trump get back into the Whitehouse.

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Originally Posted by Bristolhibby

Bold from Biden / Harris with weeks to go to the election. They will be praying Israel doesn’t attack Iran. Or at least wait until 6th November.

J

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Any politician in the US that dares oppose Israel risks losing a lot of support/donations from very wealthy and very influential groups.... including extremely powerful Media groups that would best be described as 'Pro-Israel'*


The US presidential race has already seen (totally ridiculous) claims of anti-semitism thrown about and if any of that sticks, it's the death knell of your political ambitions.

IDF soldiers shooting at peacekeeping troops now. The ethnic cleansing of Gaza and destruction of Lebanon will continue as the USA won’t intervene. Dark days.

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Originally Posted by Bishop Hibee

IDF soldiers shooting at peacekeeping troops now. The ethnic cleansing of Gaza and destruction of Lebanon will continue as the USA won’t intervene. Dark days.

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I was reading a piece the other night that said there is no way those troops can be mistaken for anything other than what they are.

Israel had demanded they move previously. The UN force, as is their right under international law, refused and then they were hit a few days later. That is a breach of humanitarian law. Without wishing to elevate either side morally in the proxy war of the genocidal zealots I think the reaction would have been somewhat different had Iran attacked a UNIFL base.

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

I was reading a piece the other night that said there is no way those troops can be mistaken for anything other than what they are.

Israel had demanded they move previously. The UN force, as is their right under international law, refused and then they were hit a few days later. That is a breach of humanitarian law. Without wishing to elevate either side morally in the proxy war of the genocidal zealots I think the reaction would have been somewhat different had Iran attacked a UNIFL base.

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....Absolutely spot on.

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

I was reading a piece the other night that said there is no way those troops can be mistaken for anything other than what they are.

Israel had demanded they move previously. The UN force, as is their right under international law, refused and then they were hit a few days later. That is a breach of humanitarian law. Without wishing to elevate either side morally in the proxy war of the genocidal zealots I think the reaction would have been somewhat different had Iran attacked a UNIFL base.

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This is so true, and it's why we'll have absolutely no moral purchase in the region until Israel get out of Palestine completely. When all you've got is rubble, what is there left to compromise on?

UK govt is 'appalled' at the Israeli attack on the UN. I'm sure Israel is not bothered in the slightest.

In the last few moments we've been reporting on a Unifil statement that Israeli tanks have destroyed the main gate of a peacekeeping compound in southern Lebanon.

The statement further says that Israeli troops stopped a "critical Unifil logistical movement" yesterday near Meiss el Jebel, south of Beirut.

The organisation said that it seeks to "remind" the IDF of obligations regarding the safety of UN personnel and property. Around 10,000 UN peacekeepers are serving in Lebanon.


More now from the Unifil statement, which has accused Israeli forces of destroying the gates of one of its compounds in southern Lebanon.

The statement says the incident occurred early this morning at a UN position in Ramiya.*At approximately 04:30 local time, while peacekeepers were in shelters, two Israeli Merkava tanks "destroyed the position’s main gate and forcibly entered" the facility. Israeli troops then "requested multiple times that the base turn out its lights".

The statement says the tanks left around 45 minutes later after Unifil "protested through our liaison mechanism, saying that IDF presence was putting peacekeepers in danger".

At approximately 06:40 local time,*Unifil says, peacekeepers at the same position reported the firing of several rounds 100 meters north, which emitted smoke.

"Fifteen peacekeepers suffered effects, including skin irritation and gastrointestinal reactions, after the smoke entered the camp."

"The peacekeepers are receiving treatment," the statement adds.

If there are 10.000 UN 'peacekeepers' in South Lebanon, then what exactly are they there for?

The obvious answer would surely be to 'keep peace', e.g. stop terrorists firing missiles into Israel and stop foreign (Israeli) armies invading Lebanon.

:confused:

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Originally Posted by Keith_M

If there are 10.000 UN 'peacekeepers' in South Lebanon, then what exactly are they there for?

The obvious answer would surely be to 'keep peace', e.g. stop terrorists firing missiles into Israel and stop foreign (Israeli) armies invading Lebanon.

:confused:

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They are there to stop weapons in the blue zone, apparently!!!

Did ye aye!?!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy435dx0jpko

(Cameron, conveniently now that he's not in power, saying he was gonna sanction Israeli ministers)

looks like the IDF have killed Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar in Gaza

quite graphic photos of it on twitter

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Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875

looks like the IDF have killed Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar in Gaza

quite graphic photos of it on twitter

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Hopefully this can be a catalyst for peace 🤞🏻

Much easier for Isreal to call it a day to some degree with one of the key figures of causing the conflict dead.

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Originally Posted by Paul1642

Hopefully this can be a catalyst for peace [emoji1695]

Much easier for Isreal to call it a day to some degree with one of the key figures of causing the conflict dead.

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I really hope this is the case.[emoji1696][emoji1696][emoji1696][emoji1696]


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Originally Posted by Paul1642

Hopefully this can be a catalyst for peace 🤞🏻

Much easier for Isreal to call it a day to some degree with one of the key figures of causing the conflict dead.

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i can't see it someone else will just pick up the baton, and certainly not until all the Hostages are returned i would think

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Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875

i can't see it someone else will just pick up the baton, and certainly not until all the Hostages are returned i would think

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Can always hope. Unless a terrorist group ceases to exist, there will always be a next leader. It doesn’t mean they will be as effective, popular or as heartless as their predecessor.

Backing down was never an option for Sinwar after October 7th. Perhaps his successor will see that ceasefire is the best for the people he claims to fight for, or maybe a little self preservation when you look at the Israelis ability to target and kill leaders. Like i say, we can only hope, and IMO today is much more likely to lead to a ceasefire than most other recent events.

Of course Iran pull more than a few of the strings so it might depend on whether or not they are ready to back out or not. I’d suggest that they should if their leaders have an ounce of sense.

I'm not really getting the hostages thing anymore. It's not giving Hamas any leverage as Gaza is totally destroyed, hundreds of thousands are dead or injured, with many more starving.

Hand them over. I presume the remaining ones are dead anyway.

All this does is give Israel an excuse to continue to kill more innocent civilians in the name of hostage retrieval.

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Originally Posted by DaveF

I'm not really getting the hostages thing anymore. It's not giving Hamas any leverage as Gaza is totally destroyed, hundreds of thousands are dead or injured, with many more starving.

Hand them over. I presume the remaining ones are dead anyway.

All this does is give Israel an excuse to continue to kill more innocent civilians in the name of hostage retrieval.

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I don’t think Hamas or anyone else thought we would be where we are now? I think the Israeli response has been of several times the magnitude that we have seen before.
Up until now there could be no negotiation because the Israeli’s would not deal with the Hamas leadership. That is gone now so maybe someone can step up and do a deal? At some point the Palestinians have to look around and try find a way to make it stop? That means no Hamas. Let’s hope they take this chance.


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The war ceased to be about hostages a long time ago. It's not widely reported because it doesn't suit the narrative of either 'side' but there are regular anti war and ant Netanyahu protests in Israel. These are largely orchestrated by the families of the remaining hostages who say that Netanyahu hasn't done enough to get them home and has used their loved ones as a front for a political and territorial war.

You only have to look at the ongoing encroachments into the West Bank. There has also been a ramping up of demolition orders in Palestinian neighbourhoods in East Jerusalem. The local authorities will tell you this is because the homes don't have planning permission but 95-99% of applications for planning consent from Arabs are refused; in a shock to almost no one in neighbouring areas with largely Jewish populations the success rate for planning applications is infinitely higher.

It's not really a secret. The pictures are there of Netanyahu pictured with his maps showing a plan of a 'new middle east' that has Israel and Israel alone on the map, Gaza and the West Bank are consigned to history. The aim of the destruction of Israel by Hamas and Iran is well reported and well understood; the destruction of the other side is as much an aim of the current Israeli leadership but it's less openly acknowledged despite the evidence of our eyes. I'd love to be wrong but I think any hope that this latest killing is a watershed moment is misplaced. There just isn't an Arafat or Rabin on either side in enough of a position of power to get round the table to try to get a 2 state solution back on the table (and the latter found out in no uncertain terms how unpalatable that is to some on his side). There also isn't a western leader in the vein of Clinton with the skill or gravitas to broker such talks.

The war ends when Netanyahu wants it to end or when he is given the heave ho in 2026, given his plummeting popularity rating that seems a possibility. Yesh Atid are currently topping opinion polls and they have a stated aim of reentering negotiations with the Palestinians and halting further illegal settlements. It would be a step forward albeit they would require a coalition to govern.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

The war ceased to be about hostages a long time ago. It's not widely reported because it doesn't suit the narrative of either 'side' but there are regular anti war and ant Netanyahu protests in Israel. These are largely orchestrated by the families of the remaining hostages who say that Netanyahu hasn't done enough to get them home and has used their loved ones as a front for a political and territorial war.

You only have to look at the ongoing encroachments into the West Bank. There has also been a ramping up of demolition orders in Palestinian neighbourhoods in East Jerusalem. The local authorities will tell you this is because the homes don't have planning permission but 95-99% of applications for planning consent from Arabs are refused; in a shock to almost no one in neighbouring areas with largely Jewish populations the success rate for planning applications is infinitely higher.

It's not really a secret. The pictures are there of Netanyahu pictured with his maps showing a plan of a 'new middle east' that has Israel and Israel alone on the map, Gaza and the West Bank are consigned to history. The aim of the destruction of Israel by Hamas and Iran is well reported and well understood; the destruction of the other side is as much an aim of the current Israeli leadership but it's less openly acknowledged despite the evidence of our eyes. I'd love to be wrong but I think any hope that this latest killing is a watershed moment is misplaced. There just isn't an Arafat or Rabin on either side in enough of a position of power to get round the table to try to get a 2 state solution back on the table (and the latter found out in no uncertain terms how unpalatable that is to some on his side). There also isn't a western leader in the vein of Clinton with the skill or gravitas to broker such talks.

The war ends when Netanyahu wants it to end or when he is given the heave ho in 2026, given his plummeting popularity rating that seems a possibility. Yesh Atid are currently topping opinion polls and they have a stated aim of reentering negotiations with the Palestinians and halting further illegal settlements. It would be a step forward albeit they would require a coalition to govern.

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It's also worth noting that 'halting illegal settlements' is sort of equivelent to Putin trying to arrange a ceasefire based on current front lines.

Another day, another mass killing by Israel on a refugee camp.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8xez14e7lro

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Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875

i can't see it someone else will just pick up the baton, and certainly not until all the Hostages are returned i would think

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The hostage situation will have no bearing on what happens. Netanyahu will continue to wipe out the Palestinians until such time as America tell him to stop. There are already plans to make the north of Gaza into a settlement for the Jews.

Israel striking Iran just now.

Should the title of this thread be changed to War In The Middle-East?

Anyone else noticing the language being used by Iran?

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Originally Posted by stokesmessiah

Anyone else noticing the language being used by Iran?

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Farsi?

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

Farsi?

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[emoji23]


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I'm not condoning violence but a 'pogrom'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2y33ee1klo

Those in the Israeli govt don't half like to take the piss.

Ajax are a club who have fans sympathetic to Israel, a bit like Spurs. It’s quite clear some Maccabi Tel Aviv fans engaged in anti Palestinian and anti Arab chanting, looked for fights on the transport network and pulled down at least one Palestinian flag before some of their number were attacked.

It’s cynical by the Israeli government and its sympathisers to use the word ‘pogrom’ The only ethnic cleansing going on is in Gaza.

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Originally Posted by Bishop Hibee

Ajax are a club who have fans sympathetic to Israel, a bit like Spurs. It’s quite clear some Maccabi Tel Aviv fans engaged in anti Palestinian and anti Arab chanting, looked for fights on the transport network and pulled down at least one Palestinian flag before some of their number were attacked.

It’s cynical by the Israeli government and its sympathisers to use the word ‘pogrom’ The only ethnic cleansing going on is in Gaza.

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Everything isn't black and white and simple. Gaza is a genocide that's simple and obvious but that's separate from lots of the incidents yesterday. The only pogrom is in gaza.

In saying that the group that pulled down the flag you can understand getting beaten. I've also seen a half dozen of videos of the Moroccan guys surrounding single people saying what country are you from then leathering them when they didn't answer. One video of them all surrounding a guy and only releasing him when he showed his passport and it was Ukrainian. I saw a video of an old guy with a macabi strip getting punched from behind when walking in the centre during the day on his own and a video of a young girl getting pushed over.

It's utterly vile antisemitism utterly horrendous pack racism on European streets. All they fans aren't the Israeli government, most just wanted to watch football. Downplaying it is very suspect

I've seen videos of the events in Amsterdam and the guys attacking the Tel-Aviv fans were not exactly the ethnic group that you'd first think of when somebody mentions 'Nazis'.

I think Netanyahu, and those of his ilk, will be milking this for all it's worth, as any reference to WWII is always a fantastic deflection from their own actions.


Attacking football fans purely because of their nationality is ridiculous, though, regardless of who the perpetrators were.

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Originally Posted by Keith_M

I've seen videos of the events in Amsterdam and the guys attacking the Tel-Aviv fans were not exactly the ethnic group that you'd first think of when somebody mentions 'Nazis'.

I think Netanyahu, and those of his ilk, will be milking this for all it's worth, as any reference to WWII is always a fantastic deflection from their own actions.


Attacking football fans purely because of their nationality is ridiculous, though, regardless of who the perpetrators were.

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Sending rescue planes was a personal favourite. Like they won’t have planes at schiphol to get them home.[emoji849][emoji23]


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Sending rescue planes was a personal favourite. Like they won’t have planes at schiphol to get them home.[emoji849][emoji23]


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Seriously? I totally missed that.

Jeezo, he really is at it. :faf:

Owen Jones, who I am usually not a great fan of, has a good thread on Twitter about the gaslighting going on regarding events in Amsterdam:

https://x.com/owenjonesjourno/status...GCP6et5KQ&s=19

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Originally Posted by Keith_M

I've seen videos of the events in Amsterdam and the guys attacking the Tel-Aviv fans were not exactly the ethnic group that you'd first think of when somebody mentions 'Nazis'.

I think Netanyahu, and those of his ilk, will be milking this for all it's worth, as any reference to WWII is always a fantastic deflection from their own actions.


Attacking football fans purely because of their nationality is ridiculous, though, regardless of who the perpetrators were.

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I think people use the term Nazis to define bigots, I don't think they literally mean they are goose stepping in a Hugo Boss uniform, they were young Moroccan bigots. Loads of the violence I would dismiss as football violence but loads was racism. Randoms getting smashed unless they show their passport hasn't been seen in Amsterdam since 1945. The fact that people think it's fine or funny because Isreali government is creating genocide is unfair. Imagine our kids or friends got leathered abroad because the UK caused hundreds of thousands of deaths in Iraq

I hate the Israeli government I don't hate Jews or Israelis unlike many

https://x.com/yousaama/status/185483...dxJXScFNwz8V4A


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://x.com/yousaama/status/185483...dxJXScFNwz8V4A


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Luckily this lad had a Ukrainian passport or he would have been battered zero to do with football. A yank that has never been to an away game for the football isn't worth listening too. It's as bad as all the people from England this week trying to talk about the geography of the cowgate because the poor guy died on Saturday

Hamas leaders being expelled from Qatar.[emoji106]


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For some balance on the events in Amsterdam, The Guardian have an article entitled 'What we know'

------------------------------------

Violence in Amsterdam around a Europa League football match between the local team Ajax and Israel’s Maccabi Tel Aviv sparked horror around the world, against a backdrop of soaring antisemitic and Islamophobic abuse and attacks across Europe fuelled by the Middle East conflict.
The Amsterdam mayor, Femke Halsema, has said she had not been told the match was high-risk, although earlier last week the Turkish club Beşiktaş moved their match against Maccabi to a neutral country for fear of “provocative actions”.


Here is what we know so far about how events unfolded – and politicians reacted.
What happened on Wednesday night?

The first incidents were reported on Wednesday evening, the day before the match. Police say Maccabi fans tore a Palestinian flag down from the facade of a building and burned it, shouted “**** you, Palestine”, and vandalised a taxi.

After a radio callout a number of taxi drivers converged on a casino on the nearby Max Euweplein, where about 400 Israeli supporters had gathered. Police dispersed the taxi drivers and escorted supporters out of the casino.

Verified social media videos show Maccabi fans setting off flares and fireworks, chanting in Hebrew “olé, olé, let the IDF [Israel Defense Forces] win, we will **** the Arabs”, and declaring that there were “no children” left in Gaza.

Ams
terdam has a large Muslim community and has allowed more than 2,500 protests against the war in Gaza so far this year.
What happened the next day?

There were further clashes on Thursday afternoon on the central Dam Square, where a large crowd of Maccabi supporters had gathered. Police said pro-Palestine demonstrators tried to reach the square. Two arrests were made.

Maccabi supporters were filmed chanting anti-Arab slogans on their way to the Johan Cruyff Arena. Police escorted the 2,600 fans to the game and dispersed protesters defying a ban on a pro-Palestinian demonstration outside the stadium.

After the match, which Ajax won 5-0, there were numerous attacks, described by Halsema as “hit and run”, on Maccabi supporters across the city centre. Footage showed masked youths on scooters and ebikes seeking out, chasing down and beating victims – mostly in Maccabi colours – until about 4am.


Witness accounts and screenshots of mobile phone message exchanges suggest some were targeted as Jews, being asked if they were Jewish or to show their passports. False reports circulated that Maccabi supporters had gone missing or been taken hostage. Five people were hospitalised and 20 to 30 slightly injured.
Footage has also emerged of Maccabi supporters close to Amsterdam central railway station setting off fireworks, chanting anti-Palestine slogans and taking iron scaffolding tubes and wooden planks from a building site to use as weapons. Other footage shows Maccabi fans running through the streets swinging belts.

Regarding the above, I've left out the Guardian's 'summation' of the meaning of those events, as it seems to be at odds with I posted above... along the lines of pogroms, Kristallnacht, etc... but feel free to read it all for yourself.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-football-fans

The new International Development Committee for this Parliament puts questions to Prof Nizam Mamode, Prof Mamode is a UK surgeon who volunteered his medical skills to help in Gaza. He gives a horrific account of his experiences working in a Gazan hospital. I wonder if this will be reported on?

https://www.youtube.com/live/-E2Jn-4NmKQ

Serious disorder between Israel and France fans tonight in Paris.

Peace deal between Isreal and Lebanon. Let’s hope it holds.[emoji1696][emoji1696][emoji1696]


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Peace deal between Isreal and Lebanon. Let’s hope it holds.[emoji1696][emoji1696][emoji1696]


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60 day ceasefire not a peace deal, just time to regroup.

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Originally Posted by DaveF

I'm not really getting the hostages thing anymore. It's not giving Hamas any leverage as Gaza is totally destroyed, hundreds of thousands are dead or injured, with many more starving.

Hand them over. I presume the remaining ones are dead anyway.

All this does is give Israel an excuse to continue to kill more innocent civilians in the name of hostage retrieval.

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Or just hand their bodies back. Like you say, zero leverage either way.

J

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

60 day ceasefire not a peace deal, just time to regroup.

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No you've read it wrong. Over the next 60 days hezbollah will move it's forces from the border and be replaced by Lebanese government forces, that's happening just now. Over the same 60 days Israel will remove all forces from Lebanon. Civilians will be allowed to start returning from next week. It's a permanent ceasefire.

Le Beck analysts I read last in October estimated it would be over by late December. The pager attack and air strikes took out basically the whole of hezbollahs command structure. The Lebanese army say they want the opportunity to retake control of the country but they need more weapons and funds they say.

Afp saying senior Hamas officials are saying they might do similar

Michael A. Horowitz
@michaelh992
A senior #Hamas official told AFP that the group is "ready" for a ceasefire in the #Gaza Strip.

The Hamas official described the cease-fire in Lebanon as "a victory and a huge achievement for the resistance," and said that "Hamas is ready for a cease-fire agreement" as well as a hostage-release deal

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

No you've read it wrong. Over the next 60 days hezbollah will move it's forces from the border and be replaced by Lebanese government forces, that's happening just now. Over the same 60 days Israel will remove all forces from Lebanon. Civilians will be allowed to start returning from next week. It's a permanent ceasefire.

Le Beck analysts I read last in October estimated it would be over by late December. The pager attack and air strikes took out basically the whole of hezbollahs command structure. The Lebanese army say they want the opportunity to retake control of the country but they need more weapons and funds they say.

Afp saying senior Hamas officials are saying they might do similar

Michael A. Horowitz
@michaelh992
A senior #Hamas official told AFP that the group is "ready" for a ceasefire in the #Gaza Strip.

The Hamas official described the cease-fire in Lebanon as "a victory and a huge achievement for the resistance," and said that "Hamas is ready for a cease-fire agreement" as well as a hostage-release deal

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5ygn5579gvo

Read it and weap!!!

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5ygn5579gvo

Read it and weap!!!

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Mate it's OK to make a mistake I do it all the time, it's not a competition. You said its a 60 day ceasefire, it's not. Families have started moving into their homes again just now. The Lebanese army has also started moving tanks into the area.

An opinion piece saying the ceasefire won't last doesn't change that, I've seen others that say hezbollahs whole command structure is gone and they won't regroup for a few years.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6273139ed4o

"Peace deal" lasted well!!!

A few days of "ceasefire" in name only.

Are the Israeli population seeing the same pictures we get to see? If so, then the sight of malnourished refugees and dead children must surely be ringing some bells.

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Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg

Are the Israeli population seeing the same pictures we get to see? If so, then the sight of malnourished refugees and dead children must surely be ringing some bells.

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There’s weekly protests in Tel Aviv. Until Netanyahu and his vomit inducing right wing nutters that prop him up are gone then there’s nowt that can be done.

He needs the war to galvanise his party and the nutters.

Not sure when the election is but surely his time is up. But like Sunak but less killing. Dead man walking. (And indicted by the International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity and Genocide).

J

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bristolhibby

There’s weekly protests in Tel Aviv. Until Netanyahu and his vomit inducing right wing nutters that prop him up are gone then there’s nowt that can be done.

He needs the war to galvanise his party and the nutters.

Not sure when the election is but surely his time is up. But like Sunak but less killing. Dead man walking. (And indicted by the International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity and Genocide).

J

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quite remarkable that the world throw up these aberrations that turn things over and we never seem to learn. The forlorn wish of the generation that suffered immensely in “the Great War” -that it be “the war to end all wars”. Such a suffering and waste. And why?

Syria: New government's school curriculum changes spark concern - BBC News


they've been saying the right things until this

The Education Minister, Nazir al-Qadri, downplayed the move, saying the curriculum is essentially unchanged


i disagree

The phrase "Defending the nation" has been replaced by "Defending Allah", among other changes.

Defending the nation has bugger all to do with Assad so why change it in the first place :rolleyes:, i won't be the only one waiting on things to turn sour and all the early promises dropped, here's hoping all us doubters will be wrong

Qatar, Palestinian and Israeli sources are all saying a deal is close to being concluded today for a ceasefire and hostage swap. Hopefully gets concluded and Netanyahu falls soon post this

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Originally Posted by Stairway 2 7

Qatar, Palestinian and Israeli sources are all saying a deal is close to being concluded today for a ceasefire and hostage swap. Hopefully gets concluded and Netanyahu falls soon post this

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I do hope so but I doubt it will stop the Israeli army from doing what they do best and killing a few hundred more people just for the bantz.

Netanyahu's place as a genocidal maniac is assured. He should be on trial.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DaveF

I do hope so but I doubt it will stop the Israeli army from doing what they do best and killing a few hundred more people just for the bantz.

Netanyahu's place as a genocidal maniac is assured. He should be on trial.

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If he ever sets foot in Europe he will be. There’s an arrest warrant out on him.

J

Hamas announce a deal has been agreed and Multiple sources saying Israel is saying the same with an announcement from Netanyahu and Biden imminent

Did the Trump effect play a part? He is certainly taking credit claiming "we did a deal" he did say a few days ago if he was President and the war was still ongoing there would "big problems like nobody had seen before" if no deal was struck.

Can imagine Benjamin Netanyahu was probably thinking no way I want to deal with Trump so let's do a deal!

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

Did the Trump effect play a part? He is certainly taking credit claiming "we did a deal" he did say a few days ago if he was President and the war was still ongoing there would "big problems like nobody had seen before" if no deal was struck.

Can imagine Benjamin Netanyahu was probably thinking no way I want to deal with Trump so let's do a deal!

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He can say what he likes but the deal is being done under a Biden presidency.


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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

He can say what he likes but the deal is being done under a Biden presidency.


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Who cares who claims the credit…as long as the killing stops which imho is paramount

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Originally Posted by Berwickhibby

Who cares who claims the credit…as long as the killing stops which imho is paramount

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:agree:

I hope to se the hostages that have been held for so long, and having gone through an incredible trauma, finally released.... and for the citizens of Gaza finally freed from continued bombing, starvation and turmoil.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jamie_1875

Did the Trump effect play a part? He is certainly taking credit claiming "we did a deal" he did say a few days ago if he was President and the war was still ongoing there would "big problems like nobody had seen before" if no deal was struck.

Can imagine Benjamin Netanyahu was probably thinking no way I want to deal with Trump so let's do a deal!

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This was the point the news was making. The deal was the same one that’s been on the table since May and agreed by Hamas. Biden couldn’t bring Netanyahu to heel. Trump it seems can.

I want to know what Trump has promised Netenhau in return to placate his right wing nutters before I heap praise on Trump.

Also Trump has to act as guarantor of the deal and keep Israel in line.

J