The Trans Rights Debate

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Originally Posted by archie

I know you are determined to make this about 'unionists' but do you acknowledge that many 'nationalists' have real issues with the legislation?

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by James310

I am not asking what he was when he raped, of course he was a man as in law only a man can commit rape.

I am asking you what do you believe "the individual" is now, a woman or a man?

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I already said I've no idea where he/she is in their transitioning under the current UK law. Do they have a GRC? Have they been medically assessed?

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

I already said I've no idea where he/she is in their transitioning under the current UK law. Do they have a GRC? Have they been medically assessed?

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But by asking these questions you are rejecting the idea a man is a woman if they say they are, that's the whole point of self ID. You want more information and details on this person before you can make a judgment, the very thing that is being abolished under self ID.

By not agreeing this individual is a woman you would be transphobic under the SNP code of conduct.

https://twitter.com/MhairiHunter/sta...Xz8nZCzgw&s=19


I know your very likely not, but you meet that definition.

It's a mess and both governments need to sort it out.

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Originally Posted by James310

But by asking these questions you are rejecting the idea a man is a woman if they say they are, that's the whole point of self ID. You want more information and details on this person before you can make a judgment, the very thing that is being abolished under self ID.

By not agreeing this individual is a woman you would be transphobic under the SNP code of conduct.

https://twitter.com/MhairiHunter/sta...Xz8nZCzgw&s=19


I know your very likely not, but you meet that definition.

It's a mess and both governments need to sort it out.

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Im asking you the questions. If you can't answer, that's fine.

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

Im asking you the questions. If you can't answer, that's fine.

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I have no idea about his private medical history. Why does that matter? Why do you want his private medical history, what judgment would it help you make exactly?

Just leave it if you like, it's tying you in knots.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://twitter.com/esqueer_/status/...zkfKy3acNzA_zw

Quite a coalition getting built.


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It's been the full gamut today. Anyone raising questions is a racist, homophobe, transphobe, unionist, anti-Irish, living in the 1970s, emotional, blustering and now a Trumpist. Any I've missed?

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

I already said I've no idea where he/she is in their transitioning under the current UK law. Do they have a GRC? Have they been medically assessed?

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Under the SG legislation none of that would matter. The distinction FM tried to draw yesterday would be largely meaningless.

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Originally Posted by James310

I have no idea about his private medical history. Why does that matter? Why do you want his private medical history, what judgment would it help you make exactly?

Just leave it if you like, it's tying you in knots.

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I'm genuinely trying to find out how far they've come in their transitioning. I was told this morning that he's had some hormone treatment, but as you don't know, I cant then say if he's now transitioned fully. I'll have to take the SPS word for it, that he's still a man.

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

I'm genuinely trying to find out how far they've come in their transitioning. I was told this morning that he's had some hormone treatment, but as you don't know, I cant then say if he's now transitioned fully. I'll have to take the SPS word for it, that he's still a man.

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Whether they have had surgery or hormones makes no difference. Again the SNP Code of Conduct.

"Trans people may describe themselves in a variety of terms, and do not need to have undergone any medical or social transition to be described as trans"

I am not sure why you need medical information?

The SPS never said he was a man. Keith Brown said she was a woman.

It's ok to say actually maybe this isn't the best piece of legislation.

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Originally Posted by McSwanky

I'm no expert, but is the legislation not partly to stop this sort of thing happening?

So you are officially a man, but want to be a woman? Now you can be without having to undergo invasive surgery. Then later you realise you made a mistake, or indeed you're at a point in your life where you feel more comfortable 'transitioning back'? That's fine as well.

Like I say, I'm not anywhere near as close to the legislation as some clearly are on here, but to me the general gist of the legislation is in good faith.

I have school age kids, and there are a a significant number of kids at their schools who identify as a gender different to the one they were born with. And as far as I can see, they're completely accepted by their peers. That's massive progress from even 10 years ago. Maybe some need to stop quoting extreme examples to make a point, learn from the kids and accept that the world is changing.

I think we can all agree that the legislation isn't perfect, but legislation rarely is. And surely if there is a rise in violent crime against women in e.g. prisons, then the book will be swiftly opened and amended?

I'll probably be shouted down as being naive or anti-women, but I wish we didn't base all arguments around the worst case scenarios.

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I'm not sure transitioning back is a straightforward as you think under the Scottish legislation. It's a permanent switch https://www.gov.scot/news/gender-rec...m-bill-passed/

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Originally Posted by archie

I know you are determined to make this about 'unionists' but do you acknowledge that many 'nationalists' have real issues with the legislation?

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I'm certain members and supporters of all parties will have genuine issues with it, as is the case with the majority of legislation.

I'm also certain a significant number of people (and posters) would not be raising their 'concerns' if this wasn't so strongly tied to Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP.

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Originally Posted by James310

Whether they have had surgery or hormones makes no difference. Again the SNP Code of Conduct.

"Trans people may describe themselves in a variety of terms, and do not need to have undergone any medical or social transition to be described as trans"

I am not sure why you need medical information?

The SPS never said he was a man. Keith Brown said she was a woman.

It's ok to say actually maybe this isn't the best piece of legislation.

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Joanna cherry will be in trouble, or maybe she just has a different view. The SPS, on the other hand will be in trouble for sending a woman into Saughton.

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Originally Posted by WeeRussell

I'm certain members and supporters of all parties will have genuine issues with it, as is the case with the majority of legislation.

I'm also certain a significant number of people (and posters) would not be raising their 'concerns' if this wasn't so strongly tied to Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP.

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That might be true, but it's not my motivation. I am sure that we wouldn't be getting the defend at all costs arguments from SNP supporters either.

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Originally Posted by archie

It's been the full gamut today. Anyone raising questions is a racist, homophobe, transphobe, unionist, anti-Irish, living in the 1970s, emotional, blustering and now a Trumpist. Any I've missed?

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Aye, SNPphobes.

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Originally Posted by archie

It's been the full gamut today. Anyone raising questions is a racist, homophobe, transphobe, unionist, anti-Irish, living in the 1970s, emotional, blustering and now a Trumpist. Any I've missed?

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Why is it do you think that people like Trump and Putin publicly proclaim themselves as trans-phobes.

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

Joanna cherry will be in trouble, or maybe she just has a different view. The SPS, on the other hand will be in trouble for sending a woman into Saughton.

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Why Joanna Cherry? It was FM that questioned their trans status.

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Originally Posted by The Harp Awakes

Aye, SNPphobes.

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Is Ash Regan an SNP phone?

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Originally Posted by archie

Is Ash Regan an SNP phone?

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That doesn't ring a bell. 🔔

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Originally Posted by archie

Is Ash Regan an SNP phone?

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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...d577c277bf.jpg


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Originally Posted by StevieC

A nastier piece of work I’ve not seen on Question Time for a while. Pretty much said we should bring our children up properly so they don’t become trans/gay! 😮

Apart from being a nasty piece of work, also very rude and talking over others when it was their turn to reply.

Excellent you say? 🤔

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I fell asleep before QT last night - will probably catch the later version in a few days. I did wake up to a couple of messages suggesting there had been the token shouty, bigoted dinosaur on the panel though. And just viewing a couple of 'highlights' now.

Must say I am utterly shocked to learn which of our regular HG posters thought her performance was brilliant. As long as someone's putting "Sturgeon" in her place though eh.

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

Joanna cherry will be in trouble, or maybe she just has a different view. The SPS, on the other hand will be in trouble for sending a woman into Saughton.

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Maybe that explains the death and rape threat's from SNP members she gets? And all the SNP members who wanted her thrown out the party?

The FM questioned the status of the individual yesterday at FMQ, like you she is going against the partys own code of conduct. If someone says they are a woman they are a woman, if you question it you are transphobic.

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Originally Posted by Kato

Why is it do you think that people like Trump and Putin publicly proclaim themselves as trans-phobes.

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They are exploiting the trans issue because they can see a political opportunity. For Putin it allows him to portray himself as a defender of Russian values against a degenerate West. Russia is very conservative socially, so this plays well. For Trump it meets a number of objectives. It aligns with the socially conservative people in the US. But it also gives him an in with people who have concerns, but are told their views are not valid. For me one of the biggest tactical issues with gender reform was the bludgeoning of opposition and the smearing of anyone with any concerns. That allows the likes of Trump to fill that space.

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Originally Posted by James310

What's your view them? Is the rapist a man or a woman?

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I'm no expert on the subject of equality law, but I think under current legislation (not the proposed Bill or future law), a person who wants to change their gender, needs to have applied for and be in possession of a Gender Reform Certificate (to have their new gender affirmed).

In the case of the convicted rapist, I don't know if they are in possession of a GRC or not. If they have one, then I'd say the person is a woman and if they don't, then the person is a man.

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Originally Posted by WeeRussell

I fell asleep before QT last night - will probably catch the later version in a few days. I did wake up to a couple of messages suggesting there had been the token shouty, bigoted dinosaur on the panel though. And just viewing a couple of 'highlights' now.

Must say I am utterly shocked to learn which of our regular HG posters thought her performance was brilliant. As long as someone's putting "Sturgeon" in her place though eh.

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I don't particularly care for India Whilloughby, but I think that's harsh.

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Originally Posted by archie

They are exploiting the trans issue because they can see a political opportunity. For Putin it allows him to portray himself as a defender of Russian values against a degenerate West. Russia is very conservative socially, so this plays well. For Trump it meets a number of objectives. It aligns with the socially conservative people in the US. But it also gives him an in with people who have concerns, but are told their views are not valid. For me one of the biggest tactical issues with gender reform was the bludgeoning of opposition and the smearing of anyone with any concerns. That allows the likes of Trump to fill that space.

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The right certainly seem willing to jump into this issue with glee.


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Originally Posted by archie

I don't particularly care for India Whilloughby, but I think that's harsh.

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I see what you've done there, very clever.

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Originally Posted by The Harp Awakes

I'm no expert on the subject of equality law, but I think under current legislation (not the proposed Bill or future law), a person who wants to change their gender, needs to have applied for and be in possession of a Gender Reform Certificate (to have their new gender affirmed).

In the case of the convicted rapist, I don't know if they are in possession of a GRC or not. If they have one, then I'd say the person is a woman and if they don't, then the person is a man.

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So you also don't buy into the theory if a man says they are a woman they are a woman and can self ID?

It's quite interesting that when you actually get down to the detail very few people seem to support the SG plans for self ID. Even it seems our most hardened SNP supporters on here.

It's not surprising though as that seems to be the majority position.

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Originally Posted by McSwanky

It's complex because it's a way bigger issue than just the prisons issue. But folks like Douglas Ross and Ella Whelan are successfully diverting the debate to be ALL about side issues like this.

I'd like to think most people agree that people should be allwed to live the life they want without fear of discrimination or worse, and for me that's what this legislation is about. As I said before, it's not perfect - and will no doubt be subject to more amendment and debate in the future to make it work for everyone. But the intentions are hopefully something people can get behind rather than this constant back and forth around the prisons issue - which existed before this legislation was a thing.

As for the coments earlier about 'articulating majority public opinion' - if we always went with majority public opinion, we'd be in an even worse state than we already are in this country. Especially with the nick of our press. There's nothing wrong with doing the right thing despite majority public opinion.

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That would all be very well if the SG were doing the right thing. The reason, however, that there's such fervent public opposition to the legislation is because it's doing the wrong thing (diminishing women's rights).

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

The right certainly seem willing to jump into this issue with glee.


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To a point. There's a lot of right wingers support this. Crispan Blunt for example. Penny Mordaunt too. But it is a right wing opportunity to exploit elitist politicians ignoring those with differing views. Apparently Iran is supportive of transition as it gives a route out for gays, who are detested. So strange bedfellows.

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Originally Posted by James310

So you also don't buy into the theory if a man says they are a woman they are a woman and can self ID?

It's quite interesting that when you actually get down to the detail very few people seem to support the SG plans for self ID. Even it seems our most hardened SNP supporters on here.

It's not surprising though as that seems to be the majority position.

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You asked me a here and now question, and I gave you a here and now answer, which you don't seem to be disagreeing with.

You're now asking me a different, hypothetical question on self-certification in a world where the GRR became law. In response, I'd support that legislation, as many transgender people presently struggle to have their gender legally recognised. They are a small, vulnerable group of people who are regularly discriminated against.

Self-certification of gender has been in operation in Belgium, Denmark, Iceland, Ireland, Norway, Malta, Luxembourg, etc, etc and it appears to be operating effectively. Why would it be any different in Scotland?