Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

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Originally Posted by portycabbage

Even with the SPL stuff, I'm confused! You said that sevco/TRFC owns a member of the SPFL, but later said that the SPFL has shares rather than membership. But the statements at the time were in terms of the company (sevco) applying for membership of the league, rather than shares in it. If the shares or membership were simply assets, then they clearly weren't transferred/sold between oldco/newco, or there wouldn't have been a vote to decide whether sevco's application would be granted. IIRC this is because they revert to the league body when the member leaves (by going out of business or getting relegated). So if "the club" are the same entity as it was pre-admin, then it didn't have an SPL share (as it's owner olcdo had that) OR SPL membership (as its new owner sevco/TRFC had to apply for it).

You say there are many Rangers, but only one continuing club, which is the "goodwill", badge, history and so on. My issue with that continues to be how do we make sense of statements like "the club is in admin", "the club employs people", "the club is a league member"? The history isn't an employer and the badge isn't a league member!

I don't think a definition of "club" can coherently exclude the company side of things, unless we assume that people really mean two completely different things by "Rangers" when we talk about eg "who pays the players" (TRFC) versus "who the players play for" ("the club"). I haven't seen anything to suggest that this kind of "doublethink" existed pre-admin, or to suggest that the assets/goodwill/etc could actually be "the club" itself (given that we are used to saying that clubs have board members, sign players, issue accounts, have financial problems and so on).

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It's almost as if the distinction between "club" and "company" was invented and magically retrofitted to the rules to attempt to justify shoehorning the New Huns in as a direct continuing replacement Rangers. :wink:

In reality, pre-2012 the terms were synonymous.

Rangers FC was founded in 1873 (or possibly 1872), incorporated as a limited company in 1899 (SC004276), changed its name in July 2012 to RFC 2012 plc and is currently in liquidation.

Sevco Scotland (SC425159) was incorporated in May 2012 and changed its name to The Rangers Football Club Limited in July 2012 following its purchase of the business and assets of Rangers FC.

Rangers International Football Club plc (SC437060) was incorporated in November 2012 as a holding company for TRFC Ltd.


Rangers and the SFA would have you believe that some magic unincorporation happened to suck the ethereal rancid spirit of the Old Huns out of the company and deposit it alive and well into the new one. Whether you choose to believe that or not, up to you. :wink:

I heard that idiot Stuart McCall on Monday night's Sportsound say if EBT's were legal why not use them. Well Stuart it is ok for the Postie or the girl in the bank or the bloke in the call centre to pay tax and n/I on their wages of £250 a week in order to keep the schools open, to pay for our NHS, to pay benefits so people don't stave or freeze to death but for the superstars of rangers f.c (IL) it is ok to pay zitch ? The armed forces one is the biggest brass neck ever as they profess an undying love for the troops whilst robbing them of much needed income. These people may have caused death injury to these brave men and women by the theft of funding. Make every player pay back to HMRC what they defrauded them (and us off.

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Originally Posted by southsider

I heard that idiot Stuart McCall on Monday night's Sportsound say if EBT's were legal why not use them. Well Stuart it is ok for the Postie or the girl in the bank or the bloke in the call centre to pay tax and n/I on their wages of £250 a week in order to keep the schools open, to pay for our NHS, to pay benefits so people don't stave or freeze to death but for the superstars of rangers f.c (IL) it is ok to pay zitch ? The armed forces one is the biggest brass neck ever as they profess an undying love for the troops whilst robbing them of much needed income. These people may have caused death injury to these brave men and women by the theft of funding. Make every player pay back to HMRC what they defrauded them (and us off.

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Spot on

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Originally Posted by southsider

I heard that idiot Stuart McCall on Monday night's Sportsound say if EBT's were legal why not use them. Well Stuart it is ok for the Postie or the girl in the bank or the bloke in the call centre to pay tax and n/I on their wages of £250 a week in order to keep the schools open, to pay for our NHS, to pay benefits so people don't stave or freeze to death but for the superstars of rangers f.c (IL) it is ok to pay zitch ? The armed forces one is the biggest brass neck ever as they profess an undying love for the troops whilst robbing them of much needed income. These people may have caused death injury to these brave men and women by the theft of funding. Make every player pay back to HMRC what they defrauded them (and us off.

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I totally agreed with Darren O'Dea on the show. Leave the medals with the players as they went onto the field and earned them, but the club should be stripped of the titles as they deliberately gained a advantage on the field through their actions. Graham Spiers said that David Murray even said in a court hearing that had it not been for the EBT's the club would have been unlikelt to attract certain players to the club. Surely that says it all. The attitude from Lambert & McCall was everything I would expect from an Old Firm love in. They almost sneered when they said that fans viewed things differently from players. Yes, these fans that pay a good portion of their wages every week/month to follow a tournament only to find out their opponents cheated. How dare we have an issue!!

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Originally Posted by hibs0666

There is an important point in here that we should not overlook - Scottish football is a basket case and is probably only a couple of rungs up from the Maidstone United's of this world.

What proportion of effort do we want to spend kicking **** out of one another - and making the situation even worse - versus working together to try and get this shambles of a sport on a decent footing?

Right now it looks like 100% on the former and 0% on the latter.

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:top marks

I wish I had come up with this statement :greengrin

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Originally Posted by southsider

Well said Jaco I 100% agree. All titles & cups they "won" using EBT's stripped and made void. This story has legs and may end up back in court. Speaking of courts Dodgy Dave has picked a fight with Big Mike. Now we are not talking about the 3 bear puppets or the saps in Sons of Struth. This is a real self-made billionaire and this guy don't dance.

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:agree:

If you're gonna pick a fight with Big Mike, best make sure you've got very deep pockets yourself.

Dave King's hardman posturing with Sports Direct looks more and more ill-advised with each passing day.

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Originally Posted by jacomoseven

:agree:

If you're gonna pick a fight with Big Mike, best make sure you've got very deep pockets yourself.

Dave King's hardman posturing with Sports Direct looks more and more ill-advised with each passing day.

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Don't you think mr King is deliberately doing this to get out of rangers in order to save money and face? This way he looks like the victim of the nasty tyrant. Bet King can't wait to get out of dodge!

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Originally Posted by hibs0666

There is an important point in here that we should not overlook - Scottish football is a basket case and is probably only a couple of runds up from the Maidstone United's of this world.

What proportion of effort do we want to spend kicking **** out of one another - and making the situation even worse - versus working together to try and get this shambles of a sport on a decent footing?

Right now it looks like 100% on the former and 0% on the latter.

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I hate to say this but Scittish Football has been a basket case for twenty or thirty years. This is ever since first Rangers (with the arrival of Souness) and later Celtic (Fergus McCann) started to flex their financial muscle and comprehensively outspend everyone else.

It has been consistent decline since then.

The League is totally uncompetitive and this has percolated down to all levels.

Allowing Rangers to 'move on' will not solve that problem.

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Originally Posted by southsider

I heard that idiot Stuart McCall on Monday night's Sportsound say if EBT's were legal why not use them. Well Stuart it is ok for the Postie or the girl in the bank or the bloke in the call centre to pay tax and n/I on their wages of £250 a week in order to keep the schools open, to pay for our NHS, to pay benefits so people don't stave or freeze to death but for the superstars of rangers f.c (IL) it is ok to pay zitch ? The armed forces one is the biggest brass neck ever as they profess an undying love for the troops whilst robbing them of much needed income. These people may have caused death injury to these brave men and women by the theft of funding. Make every player pay back to HMRC what they defrauded them (and us off.

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Totally agree.
If our politicians are too incompetent to draft proper legislation to force payment, there could at least be a crowdfunding type movement encouraging named EBT individuals to donate an amount, say 40% to an HMRC approved charity.

Sporting integrity?

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Originally Posted by jgl07

I hate to say this but Scittish Football has been a basket case for twenty or thirty years. This is ever since first Rangers (with the arrival of Souness) and later Celtic (Fergus McCann) started to flex their financial muscle and comprehensively outspend everyone else.

It has been consistent decline since then.

The League is totally uncompetitive and this has percolated down to all levels.

Allowing Rangers to 'move on' will not solve that problem.

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With the exception of the 20 years after WW2 when Hibs, Yams, Dundee, Aberdeen & Killie all won the league & the brief New Firm period in the 80's, Scottish football has always been uncompetitive. The fact that there was full employment & huge crowds after WW2 basically took away much of the OF economic advantage at that time. Celtc only won 1 league in those 20 years & their crowds were tiny until Stein arrived. To put it in perspective, IIRC there was only one year between the wars when the league wasn't won by the OF. I agree it's now a dreadful & totally uncompetitive situation but unfortunately this is not really anything new.

Just a thought, if UEFA take a dim view on the actions of the SFA with regards to "fit and proper person" and all issues relating to this saga, could they ban all Scottish clubs from European competitions until sporting integrity is achieved?

Im hoping that Mike Ashley wins his case against the sfa so it can highlight just how corrupt they are, there is absolutely no way that dave king could be passed as "fit and proper" given his previous convictions

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Originally Posted by wills

Just a thought, if UEFA take a dim view on the actions of the SFA with regards to "fit and proper person" and all issues relating to this saga, could they ban all Scottish clubs from European competitions until sporting integrity is achieved?

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They can although they have their own problems just now given that their president is banned from all football for allegedly taking bribes.


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Originally Posted by CraigHibee

Im hoping that Mike Ashley wins his case against the sfa so it can highlight just how corrupt they are, there is absolutely no way that dave king could be passed as "fit and proper" given his previous convictions

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Whatever the outcome, the decision will now have to be explained in open court. Transparency is the best disinfectant.


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If rangers/sevco/govan zombies/glesga shame boys get away with rhis scheme, does it not set a precedent?, will it hypothetically mean we could sign world class players win a league, possibly a treble then not pay them or the income tax and then claim it as our own in our history?. I wish i could buy a ferrari on my credit card. Change my name. Declare myself bankrupt and keep the car!!!!!!
Happy days eh???!!!! FTSFA

He's awful and completely self serving but I think Scottish football ultimately may owe Ashley a great deal. The taking the SFA to court over King FFP is a nightmare and could have massive potential ramifications.

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Originally Posted by Dashing Bob S

He's awful and completely self serving but I think Scottish football ultimately may owe Ashley a great deal. The taking the SFA to court over King FFP is a nightmare and could have massive potential ramifications.

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It's a great move by Ashley and will force the SFA to reveal their process for assessment, who made the decisions and what due diligence was done and in what timescales. I'm sure a journalist on the radio yesterday said there had been an unusual process used by them that whilst not wrong in procedure had rarely been used previously hence he thought there was cause for the SFA to have a genuine concern.

Could as you say be good for Scottish football and also force moves and change - hopefully see Regan leave too. He's been awful.

I know next to nothing on legal things, but did King not get some sort of court approval to become a director of a company again? Would the SFA defense agaisnt Ashley not be based on the court approval for that? Wether this is right or wrong in ours and many other people eyes

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Whatever the outcome, the decision will now have to be explained in open court. Transparency is the best disinfectant.


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I think the decision on ineligible/eligible players will also have to be explained in open court one day.
If the SFA don't deal with this properly,they could leave themselves exposed to all sorts.

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Originally Posted by MrSmith

Don't you think mr King is deliberately doing this to get out of rangers in order to save money and face? This way he looks like the victim of the nasty tyrant. Bet King can't wait to get out of dodge!

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Possibly. Does King know what he's doing? In all honesty, I just think he's a bit thick. Makes it all the more galling that he has scooped up so much wealth - but I suppose if you've got no scruples, that is a lot easier.

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Originally Posted by jacomoseven

Possibly. Does King know what he's doing? In all honesty, I just think he's a bit thick. Makes it all the more galling that he has scooped up so much wealth - but I suppose if you've got no scruples, that is a lot easier.

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He certainly appears to display sociopathic tendencies.

He does though, know how to appeal to the ignorant within the newco support, almost as though inciting nationalism!

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Originally Posted by truehibernian

It's a great move by Ashley and will force the SFA to reveal their process for assessment, who made the decisions and what due diligence was done and in what timescales. I'm sure a journalist on the radio yesterday said there had been an unusual process used by them that whilst not wrong in procedure had rarely been used previously hence he thought there was cause for the SFA to have a genuine concern.

Could as you say be good for Scottish football and also force moves and change - hopefully see Regan leave too. He's been awful.

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He's a rich man so can afford legal assistance no problems. Equally, he's a busy man so why would Ashley make a move like this if he was not convinced that he had an excellent chance of getting what he wants? And why now? Personally, I think it's because he's got the opportunity to take down King and he's got something on the SFA that is going to come back to haunt them.

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Originally Posted by jacomoseven

Possibly. Does King know what he's doing? In all honesty, I just think he's a bit thick. Makes it all the more galling that he has scooped up so much wealth - but I suppose if you've got no scruples, that is a lot easier.

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King is incredibly arrogant and self assured and expects to get his own way at all times.
Unluckily for him he's done the worst think possible in angering Mike Ashley, a man who could buy and sell him many times over. It's the equivalent of punching an angry grizzly bear.

Ashley will put Dave King in his place. Why? Because he can. And because he feels like it..

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Originally Posted by southsider

I heard that idiot Stuart McCall on Monday night's Sportsound say if EBT's were legal why not use them. Well Stuart it is ok for the Postie or the girl in the bank or the bloke in the call centre to pay tax and n/I on their wages of £250 a week in order to keep the schools open, to pay for our NHS, to pay benefits so people don't stave or freeze to death but for the superstars of rangers f.c (IL) it is ok to pay zitch ? The armed forces one is the biggest brass neck ever as they profess an undying love for the troops whilst robbing them of much needed income. These people may have caused death injury to these brave men and women by the theft of funding. Make every player pay back to HMRC what they defrauded them (and us off.

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For me the issue is very straightforward.

For a decade, Rangers failed to register their players properly. This is because they didn't disclose full details of player contracts to the SFA and SPL - a clear breach of regulations.

The sanction for failing to register a player properly - let alone lots of players over a 10 year period - is clear. All those titles should be expunged.

However... It seems entirely possible that the infamous 5 way agreement includes some sort of immunity against this sort of retrospective punishment.

So what does the SFA do now?

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Originally Posted by jacomoseven

For me the issue is very straightforward.

For a decade, Rangers failed to register their players properly. This is because they didn't disclose full details of player contracts to the SFA and SPL - a clear breach of regulations.

The sanction for failing to register a player properly - let alone lots of players over a 10 year period - is clear. All those titles should be expunged.

However... It seems entirely possible that the infamous 5 way agreement includes some sort of immunity against this sort of retrospective punishment.

So what does the SFA do now?

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The registration question has already been dealt with...

"Although the payments in this case were not themselves irregular and were not in breach of SPL or SFA Rules, the scale and extent of the proven contraventions of the disclosure rules require a substantial penalty to be imposed.

"Rangers FC did not gain any unfair competitive advantage from the contraventions of the SPL rules in failing to make proper disclosure of the side-letter arrangements, nor did the non-disclosure have the effect that any of the registered players were ineligible to play, and for this and other reasons no sporting sanction or penalty should be imposed upon Rangers FC."

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Originally Posted by hibs0666

The registration question has already been dealt with...

"Although the payments in this case were not themselves irregular and were not in breach of SPL or SFA Rules, the scale and extent of the proven contraventions of the disclosure rules require a substantial penalty to be imposed.

"Rangers FC did not gain any unfair competitive advantage from the contraventions of the SPL rules in failing to make proper disclosure of the side-letter arrangements, nor did the non-disclosure have the effect that any of the registered players were ineligible to play, and for this and other reasons no sporting sanction or penalty should be imposed upon Rangers FC."

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Those other reasons being what?

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Originally Posted by hibs0666

The registration question has already been dealt with...

"Although the payments in this case were not themselves irregular and were not in breach of SPL or SFA Rules, the scale and extent of the proven contraventions of the disclosure rules require a substantial penalty to be imposed.

"Rangers FC did not gain any unfair competitive advantage from the contraventions of the SPL rules in failing to make proper disclosure of the side-letter arrangements, nor did the non-disclosure have the effect that any of the registered players were ineligible to play, and for this and other reasons no sporting sanction or penalty should be imposed upon Rangers FC."

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When you look at some of the players they were able to sign in this period, the success that immediately followed and the true cost / financial impact all these years later this statement really does ram home how disdainful the football authorities are of the commonsense of the fans of all the other clubs on Scotland whilst at the same time looking to issue as statement that helps the team who gained from cheating here.

I wonder where 'all' Kings money is?
If it's in SA he will have taken a fair hit.
5 years ago 10 Rand to £1
Now over 20 Rand to £1
50% hit to £ wealth on paper at least.
Guess wealthy businessmen should deploy money managers who would diversify outside SA. No idea whether he's done this.

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Originally Posted by hibs0666

The registration question has already been dealt with...

"Although the payments in this case were not themselves irregular and were not in breach of SPL or SFA Rules, the scale and extent of the proven contraventions of the disclosure rules require a substantial penalty to be imposed.

"Rangers FC did not gain any unfair competitive advantage from the contraventions of the SPL rules in failing to make proper disclosure of the side-letter arrangements, nor did the non-disclosure have the effect that any of the registered players were ineligible to play, and for this and other reasons no sporting sanction or penalty should be imposed upon Rangers FC."

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Where are you quoting from?