Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

Finally, someone at the Daily Record has broken ranks and criticised David Murray.

I never thought I'd see the day.


Although he's arguing against the stripping of titles (which I disagree with) he does actually say...

"Meanwhile ‘Sir’ David - a title which SHOULD be stripped - carries on regardless and remorseless."

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/opinion...s-away-6789757

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

Whether they got an advantage or not (they obv did) every result they achieved with ebt side lettered players should have been wiped. They weren't properly registered. If it's good enough to throw wee teams out of cups because their paperwork isn't right then it should apply to all. The Hun saga has been round after round of our authorities bottling it and failing to apply the rules.

The only time they didn't bottle it from the Huns was because they were bottling it from every other teams' fans!

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:agree: Can you imagine the situation where Hibs or Dundee (out of nowhere) won a string of trophies including the League, Scottish Cups and League Cups which were subsequently deemed to be illegally funded by tax payers ? Forget about any investigations or debate, those trophies would be written off the record books without a second thought. And rightly so, as they make a mockery of those competitions and devalue the trophies won legitimately by others. It is doping, plain and simple.

The single reason this has not happened is that it is Rangers.

The other issue - which does not seem to be discussed very prominently in the media - is the SFA / SPFL ( I know not which) sanctions which should apply when clubs fail to properly disclose full earnings relating to players. Spartans were thrown out of a cup competition because one of their players didn't have the correct signatures on his registration. Here's Rangers who have blatantly failed to disclose their players' full earnings to the authorities over a period of many years. This is where the sanctions should be easy to identify.

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Originally Posted by AndyM_1875

I've already read a piece from a London QC who specializes in Tax Law criticizing the decision.

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Your man has posted part two of his dissertation. http://waitingfortax.com/2015/11/08/...rt-2/#comments

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Originally Posted by Onion

:agree: Can you imagine the situation where Hibs or Dundee (out of nowhere) won a string of trophies including the League, Scottish Cups and League Cups which were subsequently deemed to be illegally funded by tax payers ? Forget about any investigations or debate, those trophies would be written off the record books without a second thought. And rightly so, as they make a mockery of those competitions and devalue the trophies won legitimately by others. It is doping, plain and simple.

The single reason this has not happened is that it is Rangers.

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And, what about Heart of Midlothian and their taxpayer funded squads !

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Originally Posted by grunt

Your man has posted part two of his dissertation. http://waitingfortax.com/2015/11/08/...rt-2/#comments

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I was initially completely confused by his use of US style dates! I wondered how he knew the case results on the 11th of August but I'm guessing 11/8 is in fact the 8th of November! He also appears to be confused in a number of regards, he starts by comparing someone receiving a bonus in year 3 for work done in year 1 with the Oldco situation. Em, not quite, someone receiving a bonus 2 years late will still pay tax on that bonus, unlike EBT's. Having worked with lawyers in business for many years I was constantly frustrated by their inability to give a specific opinion & they seemed to get a perverse pleasure out of contrasting or comparing the letter of the law to the sense of the law. This guy would have fitted right in!

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Originally Posted by AndyM_1875

This whole thing could drag on for a few more years yet.
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What's going to drag on for a few more years, can you elaborate?

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Originally Posted by grunt

Your man has posted part two of his dissertation. http://waitingfortax.com/2015/11/08/...rt-2/#comments

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And here's an alternative view.

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2...ry=/s7kl8SG1rd

Incidentally, I read a Tweet yesterday that suggested the recipients of the EBT cash are being chased by HMRC. I find it hard to believe, but the guy seems to talk a good game. Anybody else heard that?

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

And here's an alternative view.

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2...ry=/s7kl8SG1rd

Incidentally, I read a Tweet yesterday that suggested the recipients of the EBT cash are being chased by HMRC. I find it hard to believe, but the guy seems to talk a good game. Anybody else heard that?

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Just when I think its calming down you get me all excited again......

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

Incidentally, I read a Tweet yesterday that suggested the recipients of the EBT cash are being chased by HMRC. I find it hard to believe, but the guy seems to talk a good game. Anybody else heard that?

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Only place I've seen it discussed is on the venerable John James site https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/...court-defence/ where he's getting all excited about Barry Ferguson facing jail time or a tax bill or both. Frankly, if JJ thinks its going to happen, I rather doubt it will.

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Originally Posted by grunt

Only place I've seen it discussed is on the venerable John James site https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/...court-defence/ where he's getting all excited about Barry Ferguson facing jail time or a tax bill or both. Frankly, if JJ thinks its going to happen, I rather doubt it will.

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This guy is hardly cutting edge. He's no more than a burr under the saddle, if even that, to Sevco supporters.

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Originally Posted by grunt

Only place I've seen it discussed is on the venerable John James site https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/...court-defence/ where he's getting all excited about Barry Ferguson facing jail time or a tax bill or both. Frankly, if JJ thinks its going to happen, I rather doubt it will.

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Given that the Court of Session have upheld the HMRC assessments, which treated the payments as employment income, ( which puts the liability of the PAYE and NI on RFC ), I would think it unlikely that they would then chase the recipients for payment of the same tax.



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No idea of course about where he gets his info but here is JJ's latest offering about the possibility of a new SPFL investigation..

https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/

I just cannot believe that this John James chap is a Rangers fan.

Whether he's talking about Dave King, financial doping or in this case Barry Ferguson, his position seems to be diametrically opposite to that of every other Rangers fan I know.

I must admit I quite like his postings but I take them with about a ton of salt.

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Originally Posted by HoboHarry

No idea of course about where he gets his info but here is JJ's latest offering about the possibility of a new SPFL investigation..

https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/

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Thanks for that, interesting if true. So 4 out of the 6 club representatives were unhappy? AFAICT the six club reps on the SPFL Board are, Duncan Fraser (Aberdeen), Eric Riley (Celtic) and Stephen Thompson (Dundee United), Eric Drysdale (Raith Rovers) and Mike Mulraney (Alloa Athletic), and Ken Ferguson (Brechin City).

Wonder who the gang of four is?

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Originally Posted by grunt

Thanks"]https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/

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Thanks[/URL] for that, interesting if true. So 4 out of the 6 club representatives were unhappy? AFAICT the six club reps on the SPFL Board are, Duncan Fraser (Aberdeen), Eric Riley (Celtic) and Stephen Thompson (Dundee United), Eric Drysdale (Raith Rovers) and Mike Mulraney (Alloa Athletic), and Ken Ferguson (Brechin City).

Wonder who the gang of four is?[/QUOTE]

Well 2 of them (Drysdale and Thompson) have previous when it comes to run-ins with Rangers.

I'd be astonished if representatives from Aberdeen and Celtic weren't at the forefront of trying to have titles annulled.

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Originally Posted by Smartie

Thanks[/URL] for that, interesting if true. So 4 out of the 6 club representatives were unhappy? AFAICT the six club reps on the SPFL Board are, Duncan Fraser (Aberdeen), Eric Riley (Celtic) and Stephen Thompson (Dundee United), Eric Drysdale (Raith Rovers) and Mike Mulraney (Alloa Athletic), and Ken Ferguson (Brechin City).

Wonder who the gang of four is?

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Well 2 of them (Drysdale and Thompson) have previous when it comes to run-ins with Rangers.

I'd be astonished if representatives from Aberdeen and Celtic weren't at the forefront of trying to have titles annulled.[/QUOTE]

I would be more inclined to think that Celtic would stay well clear of that one, especially if there were already enough dissenting voices to make sure there was a new investigation.....

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Originally Posted by Smartie

I just cannot believe that this John James chap is a Rangers fan.

Whether he's talking about Dave King, financial doping or in this case Barry Ferguson, his position seems to be diametrically opposite to that of every other Rangers fan I know.

I must admit I quite like his postings but I take them with about a ton of salt.

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He did admit to reading the Daily Record :dunno:

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Originally Posted by Nakedmanoncrack

Exactly, and that's the bigger issue which is being ignored under this smokescreen.

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I keep reading on here that King has never made any investment in The Rangers yet I get told by fans of the new club that he has invested £1.5m. The only evidence I can find is the attached BBC news article.

Does anyone know if it was ever made and if King owns New Oasis Asset Limited on his own or if it is the usual hot air from him?

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Or the players would have signed for clubs in England and Rangers would have had to do with signings of a level Celtic could afford.
Rangers could afford Stefan Klos in goals while Celtic made do with Rab Douglas.
Celtic had a deal agreed with Nacho Novo and Rangers came in at the last minute and out bid them by offering him a tax free package.
Trying to claim this made no difference is ridiculous.


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Great post . Pretty hard to disagree with your logic, although some would try.

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Originally Posted by AndyM_1875

Sorry but I enjoy being a Devils Advocate and your point is supposition and doesn't prove a thing. It wouldn't stand up in court and I'd expect Rangers lawyers if challenged on this to ram that point home.

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I disagre with your point . Oldco broke the rules on player registration and also there then tax return as the law now see's it. Lawyers and advocates can argue all they like but to overturn a law lords decision takes the supreme court as far as I know it.

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Originally Posted by PatHead

I keep reading on here that King has never made any investment in The Rangers yet I get told by fans of the new club that he has invested £1.5m. The only evidence I can find is the attached BBC news article.

Does anyone know if it was ever made and if King owns New Oasis Asset Limited on his own or if it is the usual hot air from him?

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Some doubt that it is his money, but that business is controlled by his family, a daughter I believe.

King is a liar, so if you work on the basis that he doesnt tell the truth then you won't go far wrong!

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Originally Posted by BIGK

I disagre with your point . Oldco broke the rules on player registration and also there then tax return as the law now see's it. Lawyers and advocates can argue all they like but to overturn a law lords decision takes the supreme court as far as I know it.

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You're perfectly entitled to disagree with my point. I do however stand by it.
I would not be surprised to see this carry on to the Supreme Court.

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Originally Posted by AndyM_1875

You're perfectly entitled to disagree with my point. I do however stand by it.
I would not be surprised to see this carry on to the Supreme Court.

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Interesting, who would take it to the Supreme Court exactly, and what could they win/gain by doing so?

Murray Group Holdings is being liquidated. Are you saying Sir David Murray will take this up for further appeal then?

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Originally Posted by AndyM_1875

You're perfectly entitled to disagree with my point. I do however stand by it.
I would not be surprised to see this carry on to the Supreme Court.

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In some ways, I would like it to. It's a case with so much riding on it, that it would be a shame if it didn't go to the SC just because there was no money.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

In some ways, I would like it to. It's a case with so much riding on it, that it would be a shame if it didn't go to the SC just because there was no money.

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But is there so much riding on it? What would be gained by a Supreme Court, confirmation that Rangers maanged to run a unique tax avoidance scheme that legally allowed them to pay players more than anyone else could who was paying PAYE, NI etc.

Or, is it - that the Supreme Court would confirm that they were cheating?

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Originally Posted by Smartie

I just cannot believe that this John James chap is a Rangers fan.

Whether he's talking about Dave King, financial doping or in this case Barry Ferguson, his position seems to be diametrically opposite to that of every other Rangers fan I know.

I must admit I quite like his postings but I take them with about a ton of salt.

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I think it's pretty clear he's not a Rangers fan.

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Originally Posted by Cropley10

But is there so much riding on it? What would be gained by a Supreme Court, confirmation that Rangers maanged to run a unique tax avoidance scheme that legally allowed them to pay players more than anyone else could who was paying PAYE, NI etc.

Or, is it - that the Supreme Court would confirm that they were cheating?

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As has been said before on here, it's not about Rangers. It's a test case for the many (hundreds?) other similar cases that HMRC has open on EBTs. If this goes their way, they will have authority to press on with them.




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Originally Posted by AndyM_1875

You're perfectly entitled to disagree with my point. I do however stand by it.
I would not be surprised to see this carry on to the Supreme Court.

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Why would SDM want this to go to the Supreme Court? All it does is give him more unfavourable publicity with no possible financial advantage. AS CWG said it would be fun if it did but I would be amazed to see this case go on to the SC.

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Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

As has been said before on here, it's not about Rangers. It's a test case for the many (hundreds?) other similar cases that HMRC has open on EBTs. If this goes their way, they will have authority to press on with them.




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I wonder if there are many wealthy football EBT users who would be willing to financially back Murray in an appeal to try and overturn this case and avoid a precedant being set.