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I'm not convinced these players would ever have come to Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen etc. Their basic salaries even without the top up were way beyond what any of us were paying even during our big spending days.Quote:
Originally Posted by weecounty hibby
Without the tax avoidance wheeze it would have been lumped in to the clubs debt.
Or the players would have signed for clubs in England and Rangers would have had to do with signings of a level Celtic could afford.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyM_1875
Rangers could afford Stefan Klos in goals while Celtic made do with Rab Douglas.
Celtic had a deal agreed with Nacho Novo and Rangers came in at the last minute and out bid them by offering him a tax free package.
Trying to claim this made no difference is ridiculous.
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I don't disagree. What I am saying is the punishment should be meaningful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kojock
No one remembers or cares who legitimately 'won' those races, once the cheaters were stripped if their titles, but Johnson and Armstrong can't now trade on their reputations as champions in retirement. An effective punishment.
The Rangers have no shame so stripping them of past titles will have no effect. It will not discourage their fan base either - except for a tiny minority who value sporting integrity over tribal loyalty. But a fine and points deduction or demotion now would be an effective punishment.
Gaining an unfair advantage is cheating, whichever way you look at it IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
FWIW I don't think the clubs who ended up as runners up, or their fans, would actually want them. What fans want is an even playing field, and for justice to be seen to be done. The record books could be noted that those titles and/or cups were withdrawn, albeit retrospectively.Quote:
Originally Posted by jacomoseven
My understanding is that The Scottish Premier League (SPL), the SPFL's fore-runner, asked Lord Nimmo-Smith to investigate the use of EBTs by Rangers and whether they breached league rules two years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyM_1875
He ruled the use of "side letters" to players & staff detailing the EBT payments did break league regulations and fined the oldco £250,000 as well as ordering it to pay £150,000 in costs. The Ibrox newco are challenging attempts to force them to pay the fine.
However, at the time of Lord Nimmo-Smith's ruling, EBT payments were not considered to be taxable earnings, a matter which led Nimmo-Smith to rule that Rangers had not received a sporting advantage by making tax-free payments... :rolleyes:
Now that the Court of Session has ruled that the payments should have been taxed, the eight man SPFL board are under pressure to look again at Nimmo-Smith's report.
Sorry but I enjoy being a Devils Advocate and your point is supposition and doesn't prove a thing. It wouldn't stand up in court and I'd expect Rangers lawyers if challenged on this to ram that point home.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Three very clear points, well written.Quote:
Originally Posted by emerald green
:aok:Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt
So you don't think a 40% boost to your player budget through not paying tax would not help a team perform better?Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyM_1875
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A figure of 40% assumes the entire player remuneration was in the form of an EBT. It wasn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Players received a salary that was taxed and the EBT was a tax avoidance top up.
As I've stated earlier most working EBTs in other businesses operated in the form of shares rather than cash which is one of the reasons Rangers use of them was flawed
Whichever way the wages break down, Rangers saved between 45 and 50 million pounds by not collecting PAYE / NI on wages through the EBT scheme. That's a substantial bonus.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyM_1875
Most 'unfair advantage' strategies will not guarantee success, because there will always be factors you can't control, whether you're using money you shouldn't have or drugs or whatever other form of jiggery-pokery to achieve it. We can't know what the outcome would have been if Rangers had not breached SFA rules about player registration, or spent money on staff that they should have been handing over to Hector - and it doesn't matter. Sports organisations and athletes do it because it improves their chances, and that's why there are rules and sanctions.
You're missing the point. Put it another way, how would you feel if Edinburgh Council paid 40+% of hearts wages for them ?Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyM_1875
We all know that nothing will happen. Right?
Or Lithuanian savers,Herriot watt and so onQuote:
Originally Posted by Onion
That's the most disappointing thing! We do all know cos no one will do anything!!Quote:
Originally Posted by stokesmessiah
*clap clap* Move along, people. Nothing is happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by stokesmessiah
However many trophies they won unfairly doesn't really matter, that club can never win any more honours, so it's not worth getting excited about tbh.
:agree: Or chipped in a couple of hundred thousand subsidy towards their costs by not bothering to pursue council tax and giving them a free car park :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Onion
The Murray Group are in Liquidation aren't they? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-30805669Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyM_1875
Difficult to see how a liquidated company, never mind there being limited scope for sn appeal anyway, is going to be allowed or able to do this.
What do you base your view on?
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11...427b746e88.jpg
The words of David Murray
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Except that IF they win the Premiership, then they will add that to the 54 and no-one will correct them!Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakedmanoncrack
I can't see that they would. Given that the liquidator is acting on behalf of all creditors, not just the non-HMRC ones, it's difficult to see what they could achieve by appealing. At best, a "win" might get their legal fees repaid into the creditors pot. At worst, they could find themselves down by more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cropley10
In a way, it's a shame that the case isn't allowed to go the "whole way" (ie to the Supreme Court, Lords etc), as it's actually very important. That it might not do so, out of a lack of funds, IMO doesn't satisfy natural justice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozyhibby
Its pretty obtuse to argue that if Rangers could put more net cash in a players banks than another Club, then Rnagers haven't signed better players than they would otherwise have been able to do, no?
They'd still claim them, case in point, Juventus still claim to have won the titles they were stripped of for match fixing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyrie
Of course that's not a reason not to strip them of things they won while cheating, but you'll never get the club or the fans to sing that tune.
Whether they got an advantage or not (they obv did) every result they achieved with ebt side lettered players should have been wiped. They weren't properly registered. If it's good enough to throw wee teams out of cups because their paperwork isn't right then it should apply to all. The Hun saga has been round after round of our authorities bottling it and failing to apply the rules.
The only time they didn't bottle it from the Huns was because they were bottling it from every other teams' fans!
Gavin Berry in DR today actually makes much the same point. He specifically mentions that in 2012 Yams outbid St M for Craig Beattie's services then Beattie scored against St M as well of course as the pen in the semi. 2 cheeks of the same erchie!Quote:
Originally Posted by greenginger
Some of Murrays companies are in liquidation. Others are doing very nicely indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cropley10
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/bu...-david-6630601
Exactly, and that's the bigger issue which is being ignored under this smokescreen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cropley10
So, these Companies, that are not part of the liquidated Murray Group Holdings, can now become involved in an Appeal to the Supreme Court?Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyM_1875
Sorry, I'm confused...
Other than every single fan of every single club, forever. They'll never shake it off. Whenever they win a major trophy, most people will start counting at one...Quote:
Originally Posted by Cropley10
No murray has countless businesses all seperate entities...they cannot be chased for moneyQuote:
Originally Posted by Cropley10
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