Brexit - What Now.

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Originally Posted by Slavers

Quick look there is a GE button that will refuel parliament with MP's that represent the people and ensure the correct decision is made

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I don't believe that a General Election is the correct solution to our current problems. A General Election makes us vote down party lines, and the Brexit issue isn't aligned by party. There are Tories who don't want to Leave and Labour MPs who do. The only way to solve the Brexit issue is to hold another Referendum. And this time we need to get the right answer! :)

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Originally Posted by Slavers

Paid holiday leave, Paternity leave and minimum wage for starts.

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I just looked at one - paternity leave. Here's the EU adopting the rules on better work-life balance (incl. paid paternity leave) https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/p...pts-new-rules/

No decision today on length of extension from the EU:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...hnson-election

So it seems we now have EU waiting on the UK to make a decision about a GE and UK waiting on EU to make a decision about an extension.

How about - "Let's call the whole thing off"?

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Originally Posted by Cataplana

60% of leave voters in Scotland favour violence. Considering we know who they are I'm surprised the figure is that low.

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and the 53% of remain voters that favour violence ? i'm surprised the figure is that high, they results fit in with my long-term views that the left are as violent as the right :cb
this should maybe be more appropriate on the Trump thread :greengrin

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Originally Posted by grunt

I just looked at one - paternity leave. Here's the EU adopting the rules on better work-life balance (incl. paid paternity leave) https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/p...pts-new-rules/

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Another one - paid holidays.

The EU introduced the statutory right to paid holidays in 1993 as part of the working time directive - the UK (Tory *******s) opposed it.
It was subsequently adopted into UK law in 1998 (Labour). The 20 day EU minimum was increased to 28 days in the UK to stop employers counting public holidays in the 20 days.

It never fails to amuse me that people are immediately interested in the results of polls, but not how the questions were very selectively structured to achieve the desired result.

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Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875

quite astonishing the percentage of both leavers and Remainers believing that violence towards MP's/members of the public getting badly injured during protests is "a price worth paying" :confused:



https://www.politico.eu/article/poll...brexit-result/

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I'd be interested to see the detail of that poll. What questions were asked that elicited these responses? I'm very wary of taking such headlines on trust, these days.

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Originally Posted by grunt

I'd be interested to see the detail of that poll. What questions were asked that elicited these responses? I'm very wary of taking such headlines on trust, these days.

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fair do's


a little more here
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ing-for-brexit


The survey did not imply that the responder would conduct the violence themselve or specify that the violence would be severe or even be carried out by those on the same political side as them.
Richard Wyn Jones, a professor of Welsh politics at Cardiff University who co-directed the research, said he had been “flabbergasted” by the results, given the murder of the Labour MP Jo Cox before the referendum in 2016 and recent threats made towards other MPs.

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Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875

fair do's

a little more here
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ing-for-brexit

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Thanks. Astonishing.

And there's this, too. What would be worth it? What are we getting in exchange for being poorer??

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However, a huge number of those who voted leave in the EU referendum believed that

economic losses would be worth it

– 76% in England and Scotland and 81% in Wales.

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EU agrees Brexit extension, just not said for how long.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50175914

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Originally Posted by grunt

I'd be interested to see the detail of that poll. What questions were asked that elicited these responses? I'm very wary of taking such headlines on trust, these days.

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They did separate pollling in Scotland, England, Wales. Results are here:

https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/__data/ass...-16-Oct-AH.pdf
https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/__data/ass...-16-Oct-AH.pdf
https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/__data/ass...-16-Oct-AH.pdf


The "sensational" question is:

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Some have suggested that **leaving the
European Union** might present challenges
to the UK but others disagree, labelling this
as Project Fear. For each of the following
please tell us whether you think this would
be a price worth paying or not worth paying
for Brexit?

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And then a series of scenarios:

- The breakup of the UK
- The party I support losing the next GE
- The UK gets substantially poorer
- I get substantially poorer

etc

The last one is

- Violence directed towards Members of Parliament

For each scenario there are 3 options:

- I want this to happen regardless of Brexit
- I see it as a risk but it's worth it to take back control
- Leaving the EU is not worth the risk of this happening

The Scotland numbers for Violence to MPs are 4/27/68

Ticking the 2nd option isn't "justifying violence", it could just be saying that the presence of that violence shouldn't affect the outcome one way or another. There isn't a box for that specifically.

Other things in that survey:

80% of Tory 2017 voters in England think Brexit is worth it even if Scotland votes Yes in indyref2. (86% of Leavers, 50% of England in general). This is great news for Yes. :-)

75% of Tory 2017 voters in England think the "unravelling of the NI peace process" is worth it for Brexit (80% of Leavers, 45% of England in general). This is staggering and actually a bit frightening.

Thanks for the detail. As can be seen from the wording of the question below, this is plainly leading the responses. Best ignored, I suggest.

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

- I see it as a risk but it's worth it to take back control

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Originally Posted by grunt

Thanks for the detail. As can be seen from the wording of the question below, this is plainly leading the responses. Best ignored, I suggest.

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Yes, it tends to turn the whole thing into a bit of a series of q's that all end up a proxy for Leave/Remain.

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Originally Posted by grunt

Thanks for the detail. As can be seen from the wording of the question below, this is plainly leading the responses. Best ignored, I suggest.

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Definitely, considering my answer to the question as framed would put me in the headline "favours violence" bracket. And my position is that I abhor all violence against politicians but I wouldn't want the threat of violence to be the deciding factor in any political decision.

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

Other things in that survey:

80% of Tory 2017 voters in England think Brexit is worth it even if Scotland votes Yes in indyref2. (86% of Leavers, 50% of England in general). This is great news for Yes. :-)

75% of Tory 2017 voters in England think the "unravelling of the NI peace process" is worth it for Brexit (80% of Leavers, 45% of England in general). This is staggering and actually a bit frightening.

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Yep. Absolutely mental.

Presumably they don't live in Guildford, Birmingham, Warrington, Brighton or Manchester.

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

Other things in that survey:

80% of Tory 2017 voters in England think Brexit is worth it even if Scotland votes Yes in indyref2. (86% of Leavers, 50% of England in general). This is great news for Yes. :-)

75% of Tory 2017 voters in England think the "unravelling of the NI peace process" is worth it for Brexit (80% of Leavers, 45% of England in general). This is staggering and actually a bit frightening.

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It shouldn't surprise anyone really. Brexit is all about England.

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Originally Posted by Slavers

Paid holiday leave, Paternity leave and minimum wage for starts.

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Minimum wage :rolleyes:

Switzerland, Luxembourg, Monaco, France, San Marino, Ireland, Belgium, Germany and Netherlands all have higher minimum hourly rates.

Paternity Leave :rolleyes:

The UK is only 12th for Paternity leave and pay, behind Slovenia, Romania and Lithuania for example.

Paid Holiday Leave :rolleyes:

UK 28 days, Germany and Belgium both 30, Italy 32, Poland and Slovenia 33 , Romania and Lithuania 34


Anyone see a pattern here?


We think we are wonderful, but the devil is in the detail, details that folk are too lazy to look into.

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Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns

Minimum wage :rolleyes:

Switzerland, Luxembourg, Monaco, France, San Marino, Ireland, Belgium, Germany and Netherlands all have higher minimum hourly rates.

Paternity Leave :rolleyes:

The UK is only 12th for Paternity leave and pay, behind Slovenia, Romania and Lithuania for example.

Paid Holiday Leave :rolleyes:

UK 28 days, Germany and Belgium both 30, Italy 32, Poland and Slovenia 33 , Romania and Lithuania 34


Anyone see a pattern here?


We think we are wonderful, but the devil is in the detail, details that folk are too lazy to look into.

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Im talking about EU law not nations who go above and beyond it.

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Originally Posted by Slavers

Im talking about EU law not nations who go above and beyond it.

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The conversation started with this post, which hasn't been answered by the originator.

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Originally Posted by G B Young

None of which bears much scrutiny. Since when was the EU such a great guardian of UK workers' rights? There are plenty of examples of the UK workers rights being well in advance of the EU minumum. The only reason Corbyn throws the word 'workers' into the mix so often is because it's expected of him. If he really felt so strongly about all this he'd have campaigned to stay in the EU rather than the flip-flopping stance he took in 2016 and has continued to take due to the fact that at heart he's a Brexiteer.

Corbyn's excuses for avoiding an election don't wash. He's doing so simply because current polling shows he'd take a doing.

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Leave entitlement

https://static.independent.co.uk/s3f..._Ind%20(2).jpg

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Originally Posted by Slavers

Paid holiday leave, Paternity leave and minimum wage for starts.

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Yep, we have 28 days of paid holiday (EU minimum is 20). For matetnity leave we have 52 weeks (39 paid) whereas the EU minimum is 14. UK also offers (I think) 18 weeks parental leave per parent per child up to age 18 while EU cut-off is 8. There are others based around workers rights when posted abroad but I'd have to look those up. The zero hours system also has its roots in the EU.

Paternity leave is unregulated in the EU and benefits vary widely (2016)



https://static.independent.co.uk/s3f...ity-Leave.jpeg

Under EU law, parents are entitled to 16 weeks of leave to care for their children.

https://static.independent.co.uk/s3f...tal-Leave.jpeg

Sick pay is especially generous in the Netherlands

Workers there can be sick for 104 weeks, or two years, and still get 70 per cent of their salary. The UK is the least generous, offering 28 weeks paid leave.

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Originally Posted by G B Young

Yep, we have 28 days of paid holiday (EU minimum is 20). For matetnity leave we have 52 weeks (39 paid) whereas the EU minimum is 14. UK also offers (I think) 18 weeks parental leave per parent per child up to age 18 while EU cut-off is 8. There are others based around workers rights when posted abroad but I'd have to look those up. The zero hours system also has its roots in the EU.

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28 days Paid holidays includes 8 days public holidays which the TORIES tried to include in the 20 days EU MINIMUM.

https://static.independent.co.uk/s3f..._Ind%20(2).jpg

Carer leave EU entitlement is 16 weeks

https://static.independent.co.uk/s3f...tal-Leave.jpeg

As is clear the UK is happy to accept the minimum required where other, more enlightened nations go far and above the minimum.

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Originally Posted by G B Young

None of which bears much scrutiny. Since when was the EU such a great guardian of UK workers' rights? There are plenty of examples of the UK workers rights being well in advance of the EU minumum. The only reason Corbyn throws the word 'workers' into the mix so often is because it's expected of him. If he really felt so strongly about all this he'd have campaigned to stay in the EU rather than the flip-flopping stance he took in 2016 and has continued to take due to the fact that at heart he's a Brexiteer.

Corbyn's excuses for avoiding an election don't wash. He's doing so simply because current polling shows he'd take a doing.

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Aye right. We're all safe with Alexander at the helm. That'll be the reason he's moved the worker's rights into the political declaration, so he can protect us.

Buttoned up the back springs to mind.

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Originally Posted by G B Young

Yep, we have 28 days of paid holiday (EU minimum is 20). For matetnity leave we have 52 weeks (39 paid) whereas the EU minimum is 14. UK also offers (I think) 18 weeks parental leave per parent per child up to age 18 while EU cut-off is 8. There are others based around workers rights when posted abroad but I'd have to look those up. The zero hours system also has its roots in the EU.

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Yes but surely the point is that the EU does have these minimum standards, which the UK (by virtue of our EU membership) are required to adhere to. One of the Government's stated reasons for leaving the EU is so that we will no longer be bound by these minimum standards. So the fact that we currently exceed the minimum is irrelevant - the issue is that our Government wants a situation where we no longer are bound to meet these standards. Goodbye workers rights.

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Originally Posted by grunt

Yes but surely the point is that the EU does have these minimum standards, which the UK (by virtue of our EU membership) are required to adhere to. One of the Government's stated reasons for leaving the EU is so that we will no longer be bound by these minimum standards. So the fact that we currently exceed the minimum is irrelevant - the issue is that our Government wants a situation where we no longer are bound to meet these standards. Goodbye workers rights.

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Interesting opinion piece for the Guardian on this subject:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.t...multinationals

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Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

Shirley it's a fair tactic for a party whose raison d'etre is to separate their country from England to regularly stress differences between the two? I would fully expect the SNP to highlight any survey indicating 'more inequality' south of the border, for example.

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It is not really valid when comparing structures that for various reasons are remarkably different though. is it?

I get that it is just politics and everyone does it, but it feels patronising when it is used to mask the fact that they are consistently failing to meet their own legally-binding targets.

As I said before, it is a bit like Colin Calderwood saying “Hey, I was better then Terry Butcher”.