SNP are lying b******s as well !

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Originally Posted by WeeRussell

I'm not saying your overall point is incorrect, but I gave up judging anything by social media a while back. In fact I pretty much gave up on social media altogether :greengrin (he says while typing on an online forum)

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Yes, there's definitely a lot to be said for avoiding social media and doomscrolling. And to be fair, taking social media as strong evidence for or against anything is far from definitive so I'm going to go right ahead and agree with you on that and concede the point there.

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Originally Posted by One Day Soon

Again, my core point remains. Circumstances as propitious as they can be for raising support for independence and yet No remains stubbornly ahead. All the while the same negatives result in a Labour lead in the UK over a four month period. Why isn't Sturgeon getting Yes over the line in this context?

It's not the rise in Labour support being a short term drag on support for independence because No has been ahead in 21 of the last 30 polls on the subject going back to April '21 and its been tied in another 6. Yes has led in just 3. Yes was becalmed long before Johnson and Partygate kicked off in November '21.

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I don't accept this core point. Yes, Johnson is an utter ********. But a pandemic is probably about as propitious as it could get for Unionists. "Don't take risks, come and be safe in our big state in uncertain times". Yet even with that Yes support is stubbornly high and over the long term inexorably increasing.

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Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

I don't accept this core point. Yes, Johnson is an utter ********. But a pandemic is probably about as propitious as it could get for Unionists. "Don't take risks, come and be safe in our big state in uncertain times". Yet even with that Yes support is stubbornly high and over the long term inexorably increasing.

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What's the long term? Yes support is currently pretty much where was 8 years ago in the referendum.

A pandemic is as good for sitting governments as it is for the constitutional status quo. Yet Starmer's Labour is ahead of the government on a sustained basis, while Yes can't develop a lead. I'm not complaining BTW :greengrin.

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Originally Posted by One Day Soon

What's the long term? Yes support is currently pretty much where was 8 years ago in the referendum.

A pandemic is as good for sitting governments as it is for the constitutional status quo. Yet Starmer's Labour is ahead of the government on a sustained basis, while Yes can't develop a lead. I'm not complaining BTW :greengrin.

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I'm not sure I'd be getting that excited, "sustained" for about 3 months and looks like it's tightening again already:

https://i.ibb.co/0GqRWgP/Screenshot-...t-15-17-46.png

The Tories will ditch Johnson if they actually think they're going to lose. Personally I'm desperate to see the back of him, regardless of how "propitious" or not he is. Makes my skin crawl.

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Originally Posted by greenginger

Sounds like a scam. Any tax refund I’ve had comes by cheque.

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It’s definitely not a scam. Two others in my family have had these in recent years. If you do nothing you eventually get a cheque if you log in you get it paid to your bank within five days.

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

I've seen you post this line before, so will oblige. :wink:

We've no idea what the UK will become in the future. So many lies in the past doesn't fill me with confidence though.

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Yeah but any referendum is about independence or the status quo. What it becomes is not part of the equation unless the government of the day are proposing changes as part of that deal. So the onus is on the SNP to be clear on the proposition they have. If it’s a strong case then the onus is on the uk government to put a better offer forward.

On a positive note the debate on here in the last few days has been better and much less whataboutery which I think helps.

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Originally Posted by Skol

Yeah but any referendum is about independence or the status quo. What it becomes is not part of the equation unless the government of the day are proposing changes as part of that deal. So the onus is on the SNP to be clear on the proposition they have. If it’s a strong case then the onus is on the uk government to put a better offer forward.

On a positive note the debate on here in the last few days has been better and much less whataboutery which I think helps.

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Is that true of referendums though? Taking the Brexit referendum as an example, many people voted for Brexit based on where they felt the status quo of the UK within the EU was heading (increaded immigration, EU army, joining the Euro etc) rather than for any supposed benefits of Brexit.

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Originally Posted by CapitalGreen

Is that true of referendums though? Taking the Brexit referendum as an example, many people voted for Brexit based on where they felt the status quo of the UK within the EU was heading (increaded immigration, EU army, joining the Euro etc) rather than for any supposed benefits of Brexit.

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I guess everyone will have their own reasons for any vote they make and there will be many reasons

Just done some quick calcs on the tax letter I have and am surprised by how little extra tax I have paid over and above had I been a uk tax payer. I had thought it would be more.

Thinking about the tax refund I reckon it might be connected to me claiming the wfh tax allowance which is did very close to the tax year end.. which remind me I need to claim it when I log in to get my refund paid to my bank. Just need to locate my government gateway details so I can login though

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Originally Posted by Skol

I guess everyone will have their own reasons for any vote they make and there will be many reasons

Just done some quick calcs on the tax letter I have and am surprised by how little extra tax I have paid over and above had I been a uk tax payer. I had thought it would be more.

Thinking about the tax refund I reckon it might be connected to me claiming the wfh tax allowance which is did very close to the tax year end.. which remind me I need to claim it when I log in to get my refund paid to my bank. Just need to locate my government gateway details so I can login though

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I got the same letter for a refund around £70 too and also claim the WFH allowance so you could be right.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Indeed. I wasn't actually meaning to imply I'm an especially proud Scot either. There's plenty not to be proud of (with the vast anachronism known as the Old Firm near the top of the list). However, my point was that for those who appear to deem true 'Scottishness' to be dependent on supporting independence there are as many who just don't see why we're so different from folk living in all parts of the UK. The old adage that we have more that unites us than divides us holds strong for me and I personally think that warts and all the UK as a whole is a pretty great place.

What I also feel is overlooked by the nationalists is that for many their preference to remain British is irrespective of politics. Governments come and go.

Oh and the fact that the SNP personify the worst traits of the stereotypical Scot (dour, humourless and with an incessant chip on their shoulder) does nothing to endear them to those content to remain British and Scottish.

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I genuinely do think think there is more that unites than divides us with most of the UK, but I still feel that independence is the best route for Scotland. I have Scottish relatives that have lived in England, are English and I have too - my wife is half English.

In spite of that I would vote for independence tomorrow. The English establishment has lost its mind, and as such a significant proportion of the English electorate have too. You only have to look at the very recent stuff with the Ukrainian refugees if you want evidence of just how ****ed up the UK’s perception or foreigners is.

I find it repulsive.

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Originally Posted by Jones28

I genuinely do think think there is more that unites than divides us with most of the UK, but I still feel that independence is the best route for Scotland. I have Scottish relatives that have lived in England, are English and I have too - my wife is half English.

In spite of that I would vote for independence tomorrow. The English establishment has lost its mind, and as such a significant proportion of the English electorate have too. You only have to look at the very recent stuff with the Ukrainian refugees if you want evidence of just how ****ed up the UK’s perception or foreigners is.

I find it repulsive.

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Good post - a lot of that applies to myself. I’m just not married 😂

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Originally Posted by Skol

Yeah but any referendum is about independence or the status quo. What it becomes is not part of the equation unless the government of the day are proposing changes as part of that deal. So the onus is on the SNP to be clear on the proposition they have. If it’s a strong case then the onus is on the uk government to put a better offer forward.

On a positive note the debate on here in the last few days has been better and much less whataboutery which I think helps.

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Independence in Europe or staying with Little Britain. That'll do for me. Now we just need to get a bus and a painter. :aok:

The case for the Union...https://twitter.com/RobDunsmore/stat...95684166438915 :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Skol

It’s definitely not a scam. Two others in my family have had these in recent years. If you do nothing you eventually get a cheque if you log in you get it paid to your bank within five days.

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Yeah. Most refunds are paid directly these days.

Be wary with your GG log-in though. There's a few scams around relating to them.

https://twitter.com/theSNP/status/1502293996122607618 :aok:

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

https://twitter.com/theSNP/status/1502293996122607618 :aok:

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Of course energy bills and food bills would never have risen in an independent Scotland .

The SNP would have found a magic money tree to fund the vaccination program , the covid recover funds and all the other expenses over the last two years.

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Originally Posted by greenginger

Of course energy bills and food bills would never have risen in an independent Scotland .

The SNP would have found a magic money tree to fund the vaccination program , the covid recover funds and all the other expenses over the last two years.

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Glad you're onboard. 👍

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Originally Posted by ronaldo7

Glad you're onboard. 👍

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Yep, your post has found its rightful place under this thread’s title. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by greenginger

Yep, your post has found its rightful place under this thread’s title. :greengrin

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Better than the first post anyway. 👍😂

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Originally Posted by greenginger

Of course energy bills and food bills would never have risen in an independent Scotland .

The SNP would have found a magic money tree to fund the vaccination program , the covid recover funds and all the other expenses over the last two years.

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People in Ireland, Denmark, Norway etc appear to be weathering the storm better than Scotland. Why is that?


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Originally Posted by greenginger

Of course energy bills and food bills would never have risen in an independent Scotland .

The SNP would have found a magic money tree to fund the vaccination program , the covid recover funds and all the other expenses over the last two years.

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So just like every other government of similar size then? Like Ireland for example? Or Denmark?

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Originally Posted by greenginger

The SNP would have found a magic money tree to fund the vaccination program , the covid recover funds and all the other expenses over the last two years.

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I wonder if you're going to wake up this morning and realise what a silly late night post this was.

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Originally Posted by Jones28

So just like every other government of similar size then? Like Ireland for example? Or Denmark?

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Don't be ridiculous

Comparing Scotland to other independent nations of similar size to prove your point that we could easily not just survive but thrive as an independant nation doenst make any sense

Only the broad shoulders of Westminster encompassing this family of nations can save us

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

Don't be ridiculous

Comparing Scotland to other independent nations of similar size to prove your point that we could easily not just survive but thrive as an independant nation doenst make any sense

Only the broad shoulders of Westminster encompassing this family of nations can save us

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

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Oh yeah. Never mind, praise the union.

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Originally Posted by Callum_62

Don't be ridiculous

Comparing Scotland to other independent nations of similar size to prove your point that we could easily not just survive but thrive as an independant nation doenst make any sense

Only the broad shoulders of Westminster encompassing this family of nations can save us

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

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If making comparisons with other independent nations, it might be more helpful and persuasive to provide some stats to gain more insight. For example can you list the income tax rates in Denmark, Norway and Ireland, the amount of workers in their population who pay income tax, the percentage of workers who are public sector workers and the percentage of the population reliant on welfare payments. I'd find that information interesting and informative. TIA.

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Originally Posted by Santa Cruz

If making comparisons with other independent nations, it might be more helpful and persuasive to provide some stats to gain more insight. For example can you list the income tax rates in Denmark, Norway and Ireland, the amount of workers in their population who pay income tax, the percentage of workers who are public sector workers and the percentage of the population reliant on welfare payments. I'd find that information interesting and informative. TIA.

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https://worldpopulationreview.com/co...ies-to-live-in

Article on that sort of stuff here. UK comes in at an impressive 13th although Scotland would likely be a bit below that if it was there. Most of our near neighbours are top 10 though.


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Originally Posted by Santa Cruz

If making comparisons with other independent nations, it might be more helpful and persuasive to provide some stats to gain more insight. For example can you list the income tax rates in Denmark, Norway and Ireland, the amount of workers in their population who pay income tax, the percentage of workers who are public sector workers and the percentage of the population reliant on welfare payments. I'd find that information interesting and informative. TIA.

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I'm sure you can dig that info out - I'm not Sir David Gray [emoji23]

Can you provide me an example of another country that is bound by the same political set up we have in the UK?

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Originally Posted by Santa Cruz

If making comparisons with other independent nations, it might be more helpful and persuasive to provide some stats to gain more insight. For example can you list the income tax rates in Denmark, Norway and Ireland, the amount of workers in their population who pay income tax, the percentage of workers who are public sector workers and the percentage of the population reliant on welfare payments. I'd find that information interesting and informative. TIA.

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It's a fair point, all this we can be Denmark or Ireland risks turning into a meaningless slogan unless it's actually backed up with a plan that says here is where Scotland is today, here is where we want to get to and we will get to this place by doing X, Y and Z. I don't think I am wrong in saying everyone would like to see this?

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Originally Posted by James310

It's a fair point, all this we can be Denmark or Ireland risks turning into a meaningless slogan unless it's actually backed up with a plan that says here is where Scotland is today, here is where we want to get to and we will get to this place by doing X, Y and Z. I don't think I am wrong in saying everyone would like to see this?

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I’d like to see even an intention from the UK govt for us to get there, never mind an actual plan? Right now, all we are being told is ‘it’s impossible’.

It’s good to see an acknowledgement of the fact we are lagging behind though in our current set up.


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Originally Posted by Callum_62

I'm sure you can dig that info out - I'm not Sir David Gray [emoji23]

Can you provide me an example of another country that is bound by the same political set up we have in the UK?

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No probs, just think if you and other posters are going to make continual comparisons with other similarly sized nations, you might make a more persuasive case by providing some stats to back it up.

Re: your 2nd question, why would I, what purpose does it serve? We've voted already and the majority were happy to retain the current political set up.

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

https://worldpopulationreview.com/co...ies-to-live-in

Article on that sort of stuff here. UK comes in at an impressive 13th although Scotland would likely be a bit below that if it was there. Most of our near neighbours are top 10 though.


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Ta.