Lucy Letby guilty

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-66180606

Horrific case that has been under way for a long time. Hospital management appear to have a lot to answer for after ignoring repeated warnings about her.

You wonder how someone gets to that point in their life where they're capable of doing something like this. It's beyond incomprehensible.

Surprising that it went to a majority and not unanimous.

I got quite invested in the case and listened to a whole load of podcasts, read a lot etc etc.

I just can't get my head around how someone who seemed to have had a decent upbringing, seemed to have done well at school, seemed to have friends and a support network, has never been in trouble before and seemed to have a near exemplary record at work suddenly decided to just start killing babies. It doesn't fit with one of the established serial killer patterns of failed 'test runs'. One theory was that it was to try and attract the attention of the Doctor who wasn't allowed to be named by the press.

Tbh I would have hated to be on that jury, not just because of the nature of the case. With the acceptance I have only a fraction of the evidence that was presented to the jury I just couldn't decide. I'm not surprised by the guilty verdicts but then neither am I surprised that there were also not guilty verdicts and also no verdicts in some instances. It's the 2nd longest jury deliberation in UK legal history so they were certainly thorough.

It's obviously a tragic case and I'm not sure the families will feel much in the way of justice today. Letby's actions are abhorrent and she will quite rightly be subjected to a whole life tariff. However there does appear to have been tragic systemic failings at the hospital, concerns not properly addressed and there will be families left wondering if there children could have been left untouched had people being more willing to think the unthinkable.

I'm not sure if the CPS will pursue the 6 charges upon which no verdict was reached but I'm fairly certain we will see an appeal which will mean prolonged heartache for the families involved.

Edit: Just read there is to be a review of all 4000 admissions since Letby was employed at the hospital so it may well be there are previous failures or indeed previous murders that now come to light. Horrific.

Can't even begin to imagine the pain the parents have went through. A monster of a woman and thankfully she'll never see the light of day again.

Although nowhere near as violent as male prisons you'd imagine she'll be given a torrid time inside from female prisoner, lots of which are probably parents.

I've just been reading an article on the BBC regarding this, and concerns were raised by a consultant regarding Letby and the deaths.

A meeting was requested with hospital management and it took months, MONTHS, for it to take place. If babies are dying and a concern is raised about someone administering their care how could that not possibly be the most important thing to look at? The meeting should have taken place the same day at was requested.

It's absolutely baffling and to be honest outrageous that is what happened. Those responsible for not following up correctly should lose their jobs at the very least.

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

Can't even begin to imagine the pain the parents have went through. A monster of a woman and thankfully she'll never see the light of day again.Although nowhere near as violent as male prisons you'd imagine she'll be given a torrid time inside from female prisoner, lots of which are probably parents.

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66108747

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

I got quite invested in the case and listened to a whole load of podcasts, read a lot etc etc.I just can't get my head around how someone who seemed to have had a decent upbringing, seemed to have done well at school, seemed to have friends and a support network, has never been in trouble before and seemed to have a near exemplary record at work suddenly decided to just start killing babies. It doesn't fit with one of the established serial killer patterns of failed 'test runs'. One theory was that it was to try and attract the attention of the Doctor who wasn't allowed to be named by the press.Tbh I would have hated to be on that jury, not just because of the nature of the case. With the acceptance I have only a fraction of the evidence that was presented to the jury I just couldn't decide. I'm not surprised by the guilty verdicts but then neither am I surprised that there were also not guilty verdicts and also no verdicts in some instances. It's the 2nd longest jury deliberation in UK legal history so they were certainly thorough. It's obviously a tragic case and I'm not sure the families will feel much in the way of justice today. Letby's actions are abhorrent and she will quite rightly be subjected to a whole life tariff. However there does appear to have been tragic systemic failings at the hospital, concerns not properly addressed and there will be families left wondering if there children could have been left untouched had people being more willing to think the unthinkable. I'm not sure if the CPS will pursue the 6 charges upon which no verdict was reached but I'm fairly certain we will see an appeal which will mean prolonged heartache for the families involved.Edit: Just read there is to be a review of all 4000 admissions since Letby was employed at the hospital so it may well be there are previous failures or indeed previous murders that now come to light. Horrific.

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I've thought the same about being on that jury. Must have taken its emotional toll after so many months of listening to and deliberating over such harrowing evidence. Your life must effectively be put on hold. If you have a job what happens in those sort of circumstances?

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Originally Posted by He's here!

I've thought the same about being on that jury. Must have taken its emotional toll after so many months of listening to and deliberating over such harrowing evidence. Your life must effectively be put on hold. If you have a job what happens in those sort of circumstances?

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I read about a jury who served on a fraud case for 2 years. 4 member basically said they had to be retrained in their job and needed counselling to readjust to normal life. Must be even worse in a case like this. The judge has exempted them from ever sitting on a jury again which says is all.

Probably somewhat crass to say but anyone who earned more than about £32K a year would also be out of pocket for the duration of the time the court sat as expenses are capped.

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Originally Posted by Since90+2

I've just been reading an article on the BBC regarding this, and concerns were raised by a consultant regarding Letby and the deaths.

A meeting was requested with hospital management and it took months, MONTHS, for it to take place. If babies are dying and a concern is raised about someone administering their care how could that not possibly be the most important thing to look at? The meeting should have taken place the same day at was requested.

It's absolutely baffling and to be honest outrageous that is what happened. Those responsible for not following up correctly should lose their jobs at the very least.

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Same old story. Concerns raised repeatedly, nothing done until it's too late.

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Originally Posted by Hiber-nation

Same old story. Concerns raised repeatedly, nothing done until it's too late.

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I think it was the case that Letby was gaslighting several colleagues and as such had a great deal of support among many of her peers and superiors and also hindsight makes things seems more clear cut.

I think it was 6 of the deaths had post mortems at the time and a natural cause of death was recorded. Likewise the 'strange rash' and skin mottling was absent from the contemporary medical notes and was only deemed significant when doctors and consultants reexamined some of the cases later. That was a big part of the defence case, that it was added to give more weight to the air embolism theory.

Of course when concerns were raised about an individual at a time when so many deaths and collapses were occuring it is shocking that no action at all was taken for the best part of 2 years and it really is unforgivable but at the time those raising concerns were ultimately disputing what experienced pathologists were recording.

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

I think it was the case that Letby was gaslighting several colleagues and as such had a great deal of support among many of her peers and superiors and also hindsight makes things seems more clear cut. I think it was 6 of the deaths had post mortems at the time and a natural cause of death was recorded. Likewise the 'strange rash' and skin mottling was absent from the contemporary medical notes and was only deemed significant when doctors and consultants reexamined some of the cases later. That was a big part of the defence case, that it was added to give more weight to the air embolism theory.Of course when concerns were raised about an individual at a time when so many deaths and collapses were occuring it is shocking that no action at all was taken for the best part of 2 years and it really is unforgivable but at the time those raising concerns were ultimately disputing what experienced pathologists were recording.

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It's clear there was a sense of disbelief among many off the staff involved - and the wider nursing community - that a nurse could possibly be responsible for each of these murders and attempted murders. Even the police, as they've just stated in the press conference, admitted that 'the last thing they expected to find was a suspect responsible for these deaths and non-fatal collapses'. Having to treat this as 17 separate investigations must also have been gruelling process. As they've stated, they're used to dealing with one murder or attempted murder at a time.

I can barely read the reports without tears. That is until I read the consultant who raised concerns and was eventually told to apologise! Just unbelievable.

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Originally Posted by archie

I can barely read the reports without tears. That is until I read the consultant who raised concerns and was eventually told to apologise! Just unbelievable.

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Judging by the discussion on 5Live just now there appears to be a pretty toxic culture within the NHS where whistleblowers are pretty much told to keep quiet.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

Judging by the discussion on 5Live just now there appears to be a pretty toxic culture within the NHS where whistleblowers are pretty much told to keep quiet.

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The claim from one of the consultants was that senior management had a nursing background and so didn't believe them.

I've somehow never heard about this case before today. I guess there was some kind of media blackout, but it seems that others were well aware of it and there have been podcasts etc. Has it been reported internationally but not in the UK throughout the trial? Seems like it should have been one of the main news stories in recent months.

Also this man, Tony Chambers, seems to have been heavily involved and potentially at fault for not taking appropriate action.

https://www.qvh.nhs.uk/2023/01/queen...ief-executive/

Yet, somehow he was hired in another senior NHS management role earlier this year and is potentially still in post as of today. How on earth is that possible?!

The whole thing is just a horrific tragedy that, at least in some cases, could and should have been avoided had appropriate action been taken sooner.

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Originally Posted by HarpOnHibee

You wonder how someone gets to that point in their life where they're capable of doing something like this. It's beyond incomprehensible.

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One of those crimes that truly deserve the term ‘monstrous’

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Originally Posted by mayo hibee

I've somehow never heard about this case before today. I guess there was some kind of media blackout, but it seems that others were well aware of it and there have been podcasts etc. Has it been reported internationally but not in the UK throughout the trial? Seems like it should have been one of the main news stories in recent months.

Also this man, Tony Chambers, seems to have been heavily involved and potentially at fault for not taking appropriate action.

https://www.qvh.nhs.uk/2023/01/queen...ief-executive/

Yet, somehow he was hired in another senior NHS management role earlier this year and is potentially still in post as of today. How on earth is that possible?!

The whole thing is just a horrific tragedy that, at least in some cases, could and should have been avoided had appropriate action been taken sooner.

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It was pretty big news at the time of the arrest but came during COVID so everything played second fiddle to that.

One of the journalists on a podcast I listened to spoke about the phenomena of 'reporting fatigue'. He said even in relatively short trials the appetite for the story passes after a few days and that's why the prosecution case gets so much more airtime than the defence. Basically by the time the defence speaks the story has moved on. In a case that lasts 9 months then that is amplified. There was a bit of reporting when the trial started, a few prosecution days grabbed the headlines and then a furore at time of verdict.

There has also been really strict reporting restrictions. All victims and various witnesses not allowed to be identified. But further than that there was a belief that today was the day the verdicts were delivered but that is false. They have been given over the course of several hearings this week but are only now allowed to be reported after the final verdicts were given (or not given as the jury confirmed they were hung and couldn't give a verdict on several charges).

Psychiatrists and criminologists appear to be pretty unsure of the motive, other then power.
https://news.sky.com/story/lucy-letb...erers-12941902

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

It was pretty big news at the time of the arrest but came during COVID so everything played second fiddle to that.

One of the journalists on a podcast I listened to spoke about the phenomena of 'reporting fatigue'. He said even in relatively short trials the appetite for the story passes after a few days and that's why the prosecution case gets so much more airtime than the defence. Basically by the time the defence speaks the story has moved on. In a case that lasts 9 months then that is amplified. There was a bit of reporting when the trial started, a few prosecution days grabbed the headlines and then a furore at time of verdict.

There has also been really strict reporting restrictions. All victims and various witnesses not allowed to be identified. But further than that there was a belief that today was the day the verdicts were delivered but that is false. They have been given over the course of several hearings this week but are only now allowed to be reported after the final verdicts were given (or not given as the jury confirmed they were hung and couldn't give a verdict on several charges).

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It's the longest murder trial in UK history.

I'd say the defence case got a decent amount of coverage though the story has only rarely made it to the lead headline during the course of the trial.

The negligence laid bare in this timeline of events is mind-boggling:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66120934

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Originally Posted by Hiber-nation

Psychiatrists and criminologists appear to be pretty unsure of the motive, other then power.
https://news.sky.com/story/lucy-letb...erers-12941902

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Some combination of serious depression mixed with jealousy of others with better lives than her would be my guess. But it's hard to know for sure when you're assessing someone who has done things that no rational person would ever even consider.

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

I read about a jury who served on a fraud case for 2 years. 4 member basically said they had to be retrained in their job and needed counselling to readjust to normal life. Must be even worse in a case like this. The judge has exempted them from ever sitting on a jury again which says is all.Probably somewhat crass to say but anyone who earned more than about £32K a year would also be out of pocket for the duration of the time the court sat as expenses are capped.

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I have a citation next month and if called I will have to cancel a £200 photography job and let down someone for about £70. My wife seems to get a citation every summer and manages to get excused because she has 10s of bookings for brides that would need re-arranged. This is teh second I have had in 37 years of adult life and bizarrely I'm in the Odeon in Lothian Rd if required

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

I got quite invested in the case and listened to a whole load of podcasts, read a lot etc etc.

I just can't get my head around how someone who seemed to have had a decent upbringing, seemed to have done well at school, seemed to have friends and a support network, has never been in trouble before and seemed to have a near exemplary record at work suddenly decided to just start killing babies. It doesn't fit with one of the established serial killer patterns of failed 'test runs'. One theory was that it was to try and attract the attention of the Doctor who wasn't allowed to be named by the press.

Tbh I would have hated to be on that jury, not just because of the nature of the case. With the acceptance I have only a fraction of the evidence that was presented to the jury I just couldn't decide. I'm not surprised by the guilty verdicts but then neither am I surprised that there were also not guilty verdicts and also no verdicts in some instances. It's the 2nd longest jury deliberation in UK legal history so they were certainly thorough.

It's obviously a tragic case and I'm not sure the families will feel much in the way of justice today. Letby's actions are abhorrent and she will quite rightly be subjected to a whole life tariff. However there does appear to have been tragic systemic failings at the hospital, concerns not properly addressed and there will be families left wondering if there children could have been left untouched had people being more willing to think the unthinkable.

I'm not sure if the CPS will pursue the 6 charges upon which no verdict was reached but I'm fairly certain we will see an appeal which will mean prolonged heartache for the families involved.

Edit: Just read there is to be a review of all 4000 admissions since Letby was employed at the hospital so it may well be there are previous failures or indeed previous murders that now come to light. Horrific.

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I would like to see charges and convictions brought against the senior management who ignored repeated claims from the whistleblowers.

It's quite clear that the senior management in the hospital were terrified of the bad publicity, so tried to bury everything. This practice is very common in large corporate organisations like NHS trusts. There is so much scrutiny on them that they are terrified of bad publicity and try to bury problems. That in itself is a big issue.

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Originally Posted by The Harp Awakes

I would like to see charges and convictions brought against the senior management who ignored repeated claims from the whistleblowers.

It's quite clear that the senior management in the hospital were terrified of the bad publicity, so tried to bury everything. This practice is very common in large corporate organisations like NHS trusts. There is so much scrutiny on them that they are terrified of bad publicity and try to bury problems. That in itself is a big issue.

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Of all the lessons to be learned, this is the most important. Unfortunately there will always be psychopaths like her around. But having read of the shocking way Doctors who raised concerns were treated, it would be a disgrace if no further action is taken.

But we know what will happen - years long enquiry, dragged out until the heat dies down. Then a few apologies it'll never happen again etc. Those in the firing line have already retired, moved abroad or got other jobs. Nothing happens. And then the same thing happens again in a few years.

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Originally Posted by The Harp Awakes

I would like to see charges and convictions brought against the senior management who ignored repeated claims from the whistleblowers.

It's quite clear that the senior management in the hospital were terrified of the bad publicity, so tried to bury everything. This practice is very common in large corporate organisations like NHS trusts. There is so much scrutiny on them that they are terrified of bad publicity and try to bury problems. That in itself is a big issue.

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Mathew Syed wrote a book about this called ‘Black Box Thinking’. It focuses on this exact problem with the NHS. There is a culture of cover up within the organisation. It’s helped by the fact it’s close to illegal to criticise it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

Mathew Syed wrote a book about this called ‘Black Box Thinking’. It focuses on this exact problem with the NHS. There is a culture of cover up within the organisation. It’s helped by the fact it’s close to illegal to criticise it.

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Well at least one advantage of 13 years of Tory rule is that it's by and large no longer taboo to criticise the NHS. They have pretty much run it into the ground at this point, it's a complete shambles.

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Originally Posted by The Harp Awakes

I would like to see charges and convictions brought against the senior management who ignored repeated claims from the whistleblowers.It's quite clear that the senior management in the hospital were terrified of the bad publicity, so tried to bury everything. This practice is very common in large corporate organisations like NHS trusts. There is so much scrutiny on them that they are terrified of bad publicity and try to bury problems. That in itself is a big issue.

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I thought the same when the news broke about what Saville had got up to. Those in power who turn a blind eye are essentially facilitating the crimes

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Originally Posted by Pretty Boy

I got quite invested in the case and listened to a whole load of podcasts, read a lot etc etc.

I just can't get my head around how someone who seemed to have had a decent upbringing, seemed to have done well at school, seemed to have friends and a support network, has never been in trouble before and seemed to have a near exemplary record at work suddenly decided to just start killing babies. It doesn't fit with one of the established serial killer patterns of failed 'test runs'. One theory was that it was to try and attract the attention of the Doctor who wasn't allowed to be named by the press.

Tbh I would have hated to be on that jury, not just because of the nature of the case. With the acceptance I have only a fraction of the evidence that was presented to the jury I just couldn't decide. I'm not surprised by the guilty verdicts but then neither am I surprised that there were also not guilty verdicts and also no verdicts in some instances. It's the 2nd longest jury deliberation in UK legal history so they were certainly thorough.

It's obviously a tragic case and I'm not sure the families will feel much in the way of justice today. Letby's actions are abhorrent and she will quite rightly be subjected to a whole life tariff. However there does appear to have been tragic systemic failings at the hospital, concerns not properly addressed and there will be families left wondering if there children could have been left untouched had people being more willing to think the unthinkable.

I'm not sure if the CPS will pursue the 6 charges upon which no verdict was reached but I'm fairly certain we will see an appeal which will mean prolonged heartache for the families involved.

Edit: Just read there is to be a review of all 4000 admissions since Letby was employed at the hospital so it may well be there are previous failures or indeed previous murders that now come to light. Horrific.

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If the fact there has only been one baby death on the unit since she was removed from working there was made known to the jury then any doubt/concern as to her guilt was probably eased, but as you say it must have been hard to deliver a verdict on some of the murders/attempted murders based solely on the evidence presented.

I fear the new review of all admissions during her time there (including two deaths during her time as a trainee in Liverpool) may ultimately see the scale of what she did dwarf what she's so far been found guilty of.

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Originally Posted by He's here!

If the fact there has only been one baby death on the unit since she was removed from working there was made known to the jury then any doubt/concern as to her guilt was probably eased, but as you say it must have been hard to deliver a verdict on some of the murders/attempted murders based solely on the evidence presented.

I fear the new review of all admissions during her time there (including two deaths during her time as a trainee in Liverpool) may ultimately see the scale of what she did dwarf what she's so far been found guilty of.

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The unit was downgraded following the murders so no longer deals with babies as gravely ill as when she was there which may partly explain the really significant drop in deaths. It's still a significant and relevant point of course. Like you I now fear the true scale of her crimes is only just beginning to be seen.

Going back to the concerns of doctors being ignored I think you have to remember Letby had painted a real picture of herself as the victim, after being removed from front line duties she launched a grievance case against the hospital! Even listening to accounts of some of the evidence I found myself disliking some of the 'gang of 4' based on her version of events. Obviously now they can talk freely it's a different story altogether.

Watched the panorama documentary about it last night. Quite disturbing there seemed to be an attempted cover up at higher management levels and she kept getting put on shift as many assumed she was 'too nice' to do anything as horrific as that.

Concerning that the initial fear of reputational damage seemed to take priority over the deaths of babies.