Do we take germs and cleanliness too far...?

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15-09-2009, 11:47 AM
Dinkydoo

Do we take germs and cleanliness too far...?

You can now apparently get ill by simply taking a shower

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20090915...s-b2e59e8.html

It does state that this normally only affects people with compromised immune systems but occasionaly does cause health probelms for "normal, healthy" people.

The bit that prompted me to suggest that we might be taking germs and cleanliness too far is:

"The researchers said showerheads are not the only potential bacterial dispersants in the home, however.
Feazel said more research is needed to measure bacteria levels in household devices like humidifiers and evaporative coolers."

I mean, fair enough, do a bit of research with the purpose of providing advice to people who muight be especvially vunerable to catching things because of underlying health conditions but I think that they'll find germs (good and bad) wherever they look.

It's something that I believe is far too easy to obsess about. One of my mates used to wash his hands with Detol because he didn't like the thought of touching his face or mouth his germ ridden hands.He did this around 6 or 7 times a day and until he got a bit of help from a doctor who specialised in OCD he looked certain to drive himself crazy. For the record he didn't have OCD but since it was quite a serious obsession (I've only really touched apon it mind you) this specialist was able to help.

So, doy you think that we as a society take "cleanliness" too far......?
15-09-2009, 12:00 PM
Woody1985

Yes, killing off all germs means that our immune systems will deteriorate over time and become susceptable to disease. Obviously we'd have to be cleaning everything all the time and not speak to other people for it to get to that stage but it does more harm than good in some circumstances.

My uncle's ex-wife never used to their their two laddies play outside in the garden because it was dirty, they might catch something or they might catch a cold etc etc. They were about 4/6 at the time.

She turned out to be a weirdo which probably explains it.
15-09-2009, 03:26 PM
sleeping giant

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woody1985

Yes, killing off all germs means that our immune systems will deteriorate over time and become susceptable to disease. Obviously we'd have to be cleaning everything all the time and not speak to other people for it to get to that stage but it does more harm than good in some circumstances.

My uncle's ex-wife never used to their their two laddies play outside in the garden because it was dirty, they might catch something or they might catch a cold etc etc. They were about 4/6 at the time.

She turned out to be a weirdo which probably explains it.

There are 2 boys in my sons football team who are not allowed to play or train in the rain.
Their Mother relented a few months ago and let them play in the cold rain and they ended up being off school for a week:greengrin
Its funny watching the Dad squirm when he tries to explain it:faf:

You don't let your kid play with **** or in **** or plugholes etc but by all means get outside , get wet and muddy -)
There are a couple of boys on our street who are not allowed to get wet during the summer holidays. Its a shame as everyone else is having waterfights or in the paddling pools.
15-09-2009, 04:02 PM
Wembley67

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleeping giant

There are 2 boys in my sons football team who are not allowed to play or train in the rain.
Their Mother relented a few months ago and let them play in the cold rain and they ended up being off school for a week:greengrin
Its funny watching the Dad squirm when he tries to explain it:faf:

You don't let your kid play with **** or in **** or plugholes etc but by all means get outside , get wet and muddy -)
There are a couple of boys on our street who are not allowed to get wet during the summer holidays. Its a shame as everyone else is having waterfights or in the paddling pools.

Seasonal Gremlins :dunno:
15-09-2009, 05:05 PM
s.a.m

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleeping giant

There are 2 boys in my sons football team who are not allowed to play or train in the rain.
Their Mother relented a few months ago and let them play in the cold rain and they ended up being off school for a week:greengrin
Its funny watching the Dad squirm when he tries to explain it:faf:

You don't let your kid play with **** or in **** or plugholes etc but by all means get outside , get wet and muddy -)
There are a couple of boys on our street who are not allowed to get wet during the summer holidays. Its a shame as everyone else is having waterfights or in the paddling pools.

A year or two ago, there was research presented which suggested that there were likely to be harmful effects from people not being sufficiently exposed to lower risk bacteria, partly as a result of over-zealous or un-necessary washing and disinfecting.

The report's author made a similar point to yours. (Basically, know the difference between sensible precautions and neurotic behaviour......). He was keen to point out, though, that there are dangerous bacteria while make lots of folk very ill, and kill them, and he didn't want people to think that he was suggesting they abandon hygiene in the proper places.
15-09-2009, 09:02 PM
J-C

As kids you always pick up wee germs, remember all the sniffling noses, this, as said builds up your immune system over the years and makes you healthier. Take all that away and you'll get ill all the time whenever you come into contact with germs.
15-09-2009, 10:34 PM
Peevemor

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC50

As kids you always pick up wee germs, remember all the sniffling noses, this, as said builds up your immune system over the years and makes you healthier. Take all that away and you'll get ill all the time whenever you come into contact with germs.

Nothing to do with cleanliness, but I find doctors here in France are far too heavy with medication. I get the impression that they start writing out your prescription before you've had a chance to say bonjour and explain what's wrong. The result, in my unprofessional opinion, is that kids' natural immune systems don't develop properly because they are given medication to deal with the slightest wee thing.

A couple of years ago my eldest daughter (3 at the time and anything but a sickly child) was ill practically all winter. She caught any bug that was going about and everyone in her class at school was the same. We eventually asked around and changed to a GP who is far less heavy handed with his prescription pad and the difference is huge.
16-09-2009, 12:07 PM
J-C

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peevemor®

Nothing to do with cleanliness, but I find doctors here in France are far too heavy with medication. I get the impression that they start writing out your prescription before you've had a chance to say bonjour and explain what's wrong. The result, in my unprofessional opinion, is that kids' natural immune systems don't develop properly because they are given medication to deal with the slightest wee thing.

A couple of years ago my eldest daughter (3 at the time and anything but a sickly child) was ill practically all winter. She caught any bug that was going about and everyone in her class at school was the same. We eventually asked around and changed to a GP who is far less heavy handed with his prescription pad and the difference is huge.

I never said anything about cleanliness, that is something we should all do as a matter of course.

The OP is about cleaning germs with anti bacterial cleaners to the extreme where there's no germs to be seen, therefore simple bacteria that we build up an immunity to over the years does not occur and kids are contsantly getting ill.
16-09-2009, 12:26 PM
Scouse Hibee

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinkydoo

You can now apparently get ill by simply taking a shower

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20090915...s-b2e59e8.html

It does state that this normally only affects people with compromised immune systems but occasionaly does cause health probelms for "normal, healthy" people.

The bit that prompted me to suggest that we might be taking germs and cleanliness too far is:

"The researchers said showerheads are not the only potential bacterial dispersants in the home, however.
Feazel said more research is needed to measure bacteria levels in household devices like humidifiers and evaporative coolers."

I mean, fair enough, do a bit of research with the purpose of providing advice to people who muight be especvially vunerable to catching things because of underlying health conditions but I think that they'll find germs (good and bad) wherever they look.

It's something that I believe is far too easy to obsess about. One of my mates used to wash his hands with Detol because he didn't like the thought of touching his face or mouth his germ ridden hands.He did this around 6 or 7 times a day and until he got a bit of help from a doctor who specialised in OCD he looked certain to drive himself crazy. For the record he didn't have OCD but since it was quite a serious obsession (I've only really touched apon it mind you) this specialist was able to help.

So, doy you think that we as a society take "cleanliness" too far......?

Have always taken shower head cleaning seriously, probably due to the strict H & S policy within my workplace for which I have the responsibility to audit many things, one of these being the shower head cleaning regime.
16-09-2009, 12:29 PM
Peevemor

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC50

I never said anything about cleanliness, that is something we should all do as a matter of course.

The OP is about cleaning germs with anti bacterial cleaners to the extreme where there's no germs to be seen, therefore simple bacteria that we build up an immunity to over the years does not occur and kids are contsantly getting ill.

I wasn't disagreeing with you at all - just change the subject a wee bit (as I do!). :greengrin
16-09-2009, 01:02 PM
J-C

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peevemor®

I wasn't disagreeing with you at all - just change the subject a wee bit (as I do!). :greengrin

Fair enough.:greengrin
16-09-2009, 03:31 PM
Phil D. Rolls

Totally. Infection control seems to have become the universal panacea. There are many more sources of illness than germs.
19-09-2009, 01:53 PM
(((Fergus)))

People are using anti-bacterial cleaning to extremes because they have the sensation that they are very dirty.

The trouble is, dirt is coming into the home and body through many channels other than shower heads and humidifiers, e.g., most households have access to hard-core pornography on demand, even to young children.

Food is another everyday source of "dirt" in the form of GM, homogenised dairy, pesticides, medication.

If people clean up in the areas that are really dirty, they will not feel the need for anti-bacterials.

The other irony is that bacteria are some of nature's most helpful cleaners. Killing them makes us even more dirty. So we buy more anti-bacterials...
19-09-2009, 04:45 PM
Beefster

It all depends on the germs/bacteria that you're exposed to. There are 'friendly' or non-harmful bacteria but some germs will make you seriously ill with minimal exposure.

One of the germs being spoken about for showers causes Legionnaire's Disease. I wouldn't want any exposure to that.
20-09-2009, 07:02 PM
Phil D. Rolls

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beefster

It all depends on the germs/bacteria that you're exposed to. There are 'friendly' or non-harmful bacteria but some germs will make you seriously ill with minimal exposure.

One of the germs being spoken about for showers causes Legionnaire's Disease. I wouldn't want any exposure to that.

It's only showers that aren't used very often, for example in caravans. If the shower is used regularly, the hot water kills the Legionella.
20-09-2009, 07:57 PM
Beefster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filled Rolls

It's only showers that aren't used very often, for example in caravans. If the shower is used regularly, the hot water kills the Legionella.

I'm fairly sure that the typical shower water temperature is pretty much the ideal temperature for growth.

Edit: This seems to back it up (I think).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legionella#Source_control
20-09-2009, 08:03 PM
Phil D. Rolls

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beefster

I'm fairly sure that the typical shower water temperature is pretty much the ideal temperature for growth.

Edit: This seems to back it up (I think).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legionella#Source_control

Thanks, I was half aware of the problem but hadn't looked into it properly. One of the things I have just read says shower heads should be removed and disinfected every three months. Well worth following that advice I reckon.
23-11-2009, 10:42 AM
Wembley67

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8373690.stm
23-11-2009, 11:37 AM
Green Mikey

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fergus

The trouble is, dirt is coming into the home and body through many channels other than shower heads and humidifiers, e.g., most households have access to hard-core pornography on demand, even to young children.

Is this a joke?

I think you need to differentiate between good and bad dirt....bad dirt = jobbies...good dirt = porn....
23-11-2009, 12:26 PM
Twa Cairpets

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green Mikey

Is this a joke?

I think you need to differentiate between good and bad dirt....bad dirt = jobbies...good dirt = porn....

With any post from Fergus, I find it helps to tip your head slightly to the right and squint a bit to try and help look at life from his (to my mind) bizarre perspective.
23-11-2009, 12:36 PM
Twa Cairpets

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fergus

People are using anti-bacterial cleaning to extremes because they have the sensation that they are very dirty.

Which "people"? Very dirty?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fergus

The trouble is, dirt is coming into the home and body through many channels other than shower heads and humidifiers, e.g., most households have access to hard-core pornography on demand, even to young children.

:confused:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fergus

Food is another everyday source of "dirt" in the form of GM, homogenised dairy, pesticides, medication.

Utter tripe. Absolute, utter, complete tripe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fergus

If people clean up in the areas that are really dirty, they will not feel the need for anti-bacterials.

What do we clean up with? Magic pixie dust?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fergus

The other irony is that bacteria are some of nature's most helpful cleaners. Killing them makes us even more dirty. So we buy more anti-bacterials...

Some bacteria is good, some is neutral, Some is very, very bad. There is a link, you know, between improved cleanliness and improved health. The OP and a few other comments are right - its about sensible precautions.
23-11-2009, 03:50 PM
hibsbollah

Dirt can be good for children, bbc report says today
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8373690.stm

Original report from US team published in Nature
http://www.nature.com/nm/index.html

Children should be allowed to get dirty, according to scientists who have found being too clean can impair the skin's ability to heal.
Normal bacteria living on the skin trigger a pathway that helps prevent inflammation when we get hurt, the US team discovered.

The bugs dampen down overactive immune responses that can cause cuts and grazes to swell, they say.

Their work is published in the online edition of Nature Medicine.
Experts said the findings provided an explanation for the "hygiene hypothesis", which holds that exposure to germs during early childhood primes the body against allergies.

Many believe our obsession with cleanliness is to blame for the recent boom in allergies in developed countries.

'Good' bacteria
Researchers from the School of Medicine at University of California, San Diego, found a common bacterial species, known as Staphylococci, blocked a vital step in a cascade of events that led to inflammation.

By studying mice and human cells, they found the harmless bacteria did this by making a molecule called lipoteichoic acid or LTA, which acted on keratinocytes - the main cell types found in the outer layer of the skin.
The LTA keeps the keratinocytes in check, stopping them from mounting an aggressive inflammatory response.

Head of the research Professor Richard Gallo said: "The exciting implication of the work is that it provides a molecular basis to understand the hygiene hypothesis and has uncovered elements of the wound repair response that were previously unknown.

"This may help us devise new therapeutic approaches for inflammatory skin diseases."

The lobby group Parents Outloud said the work offered scientific support for its campaign to stop children being mollycoddled and over-sanitised.
A spokeswoman for Allergy UK said there was a growing body of evidence that exposure to germs was a good thing.

But she said more research was needed.

"Rates of allergy have tripled in the UK in the last decade. One in three people now has some kind of allergy.

"Some of this might be that people are better informed. But a lot of it is genetic as well as down to our environment," she said.
24-11-2009, 10:11 AM
Bayern Bru

The apartment complex I stay in has maintenance boys to come round I think, once a semester or so, to change the showerheads to prevent the spread of Legionnaire's.

Whereas I think some people can take it too far when attempting to eradicate germs (not helped by the over zealous adverts on TV when the mock-superhero voice booms 'KILLS ALL GERMS FAST'), there are certain procedures, like the one i mentioned which make sense. But basically, there's being conscientious about basic hygiene and well being, and then there's being overly-meticulous with the Dettol and the Flash wipes.

Or as some of you might prefer, 'normal' and 'weird.'
:greengrin