Another test for Obama

Left wing democratically elected Govt overthrown in a coup. (CIA have been involved there in the past). What does Obama do?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8123126.stm


Troops in Honduras have detained the president and flown him out of the country after a power struggle over plans to change the constitution.
President Manuel Zelaya was flown to Costa Rica from an air force base outside the capital, Tegucigalpa.

Mr Zelaya, elected for a non-renewable four-year term in January 2006, wanted a vote to extend his time in office.

His arrest came just before the start of a referendum ruled illegal by the Supreme Court and opposed by Congress.

There was also resistance within Mr Zelaya's own party to the plan to hold the vote.

Reuters news agency reports that police fired teargas at about 500 supporters of Mr Zelaya who had gathered outside the presidential palace.

'Arrested in pyjamas'
Protesters reportedly hurled rocks at the soldiers, shouting "Traitors", AP news agency reports, as tanks rolled through the streets and air force jets flew over the capital.


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif

Early on Sunday, witnesses saw dozens of troops surround Mr Zelaya's residence.


In other developments:
• At an emergency meeting in Washington, the Organization of American States condemned what it called a "coup" in Honduras
• Mr Zelaya's ally, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, blamed "the Yankee empire"
• US President Barack Obama called on Honduras to "respect democratic norms, the rule of law"; the EU condemned Mr Zelaya's arrest

From Costa Rica, Mr Zelaya told Venezuelan TV that Honduran soldiers had arrested him in his pyjamas.

"I'm in San Jose in Costa Rica," he said. "I've been the victim of a kidnapping by a group of Honduran soldiers.

"This was a plot by a very voracious elite, an elite which wants only to keep this country isolated, in an extreme level of poverty. It doesn't care about the people, it's not sensitive to them."

The military's dramatic move came after President Zelaya defied a court order that he should re-instate the chief of the army, Gen Romeo Vasquez.
The president sacked Gen Vasquez late on Wednesday for refusing to help him organise the referendum.

Mr Zelaya, who under current regulations leaves office next January, also accepted the resignation of the defence minister.

'US opposed coup'
The referendum was to ask the population if they approved of a formal vote next November on whether to rewrite the Honduran constitution.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifMANUEL ZELAYA




Elected for Liberal Party in Nov 2005; beat ruling National Party candidate
Has moved Honduras away from its traditional ally the US
Enjoys the support of Venezuela's leftist President, Hugo Chavez
A civil engineer and rancher by profession


On Thursday, the Honduran Congress approved plans to investigate whether the president should be declared unfit to rule.

In an interview with Spain's El Pais newspaper published on Sunday, Mr Zelaya said a planned coup against him had been thwarted after the US refused to back it.

"Everything was in place for the coup and if the US embassy had approved it, it would have happened. But they did not," Mr Zelaya said.

The arrest of Mr Zelaya took place an hour before polls were due to open.
Ballot boxes and other voting materials had been distributed by Mr Zelaya's supporters and government employees throughout the Central American country.

The president has vowed to transform Honduras, saying the system currently favours the wealthy elite. But his opponents accused him of seeking to rule indefinitely.

Honduras - an impoverished coffee and banana-exporting nation of more than 7 million people - has experienced military coups in the past.

Soldiers overthrew elected presidents in 1963 and again in 1975; the military did not turn the government over to civilians until 1981.

It looks like the US have already opposed the coup. What else can Obama do, why should unrest in Latin America be seen as a problem for him?

Should the US be seen as an international police for issues such as this?

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Originally Posted by Green Mikey

It looks like the US have already opposed the coup. What else can Obama do, why should unrest in Latin America be seen as a problem for him?

Should the US be seen as an international police for issues such as this?

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It seems t think it's got the right to tell Cuba and Venezula what to do. In Cuba's place it's even tried to invade it as well as isolate it internationally. Unlike its chums Saudi Arabia and Pakistan who apparently are beacons of light to the rest of the world.

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Originally Posted by givescotlandfreedom

It seems t think it's got the right to tell Cuba and Venezula what to do. In Cuba's place it's even tried to invade it as well as isolate it internationally. Unlike its chums Saudi Arabia and Pakistan who apparently are beacons of light to the rest of the world.

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That's the way of the world though.

Most of it is about self interest. By having allies that they don't necessarilly like or agree with doesn't mean they're not good allies in strategic places. It reeks of double standards but that's just how it is.

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Originally Posted by Woody1985

That's the way of the world though.

Most of it is about self interest. By having allies that they don't necessarilly like or agree with doesn't mean they're not good allies in strategic places. It reeks of double standards but that's just how it is.

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:agree:

Sad but true, unfortunately morality does not rate very highly in international politics.

givescotlandfreedom - my point was not about the US's current allies, but that the OP was seeing a crisis in Honduras as a US issue. Should we be imploring them to intervene when, as you pointed out, the US may not be the best country to do so.

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Originally Posted by givescotlandfreedom

It seems t think it's got the right to tell Cuba and Venezula what to do. In Cuba's place it's even tried to invade it as well as isolate it internationally.

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When did the US try to invade Cuba? Don't try to claim the Bay of Pigs was it. That was native Cubans returning to their own country. We had every right to isolate Cuba. They had nuclear missiles that were ready to be launched at any number of American cities.

If Obama wants to prove his 'break from the past' credentials, he should be campaigning for the return of the democratically elected Govt. Chavez has already claimed the CIA is behind it.

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

If Obama wants to prove his 'break from the past' credentials, he should be campaigning for the return of the democratically elected Govt. Chavez has already claimed the CIA is behind it.

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Does he not claim that about everything that happens?

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Originally Posted by Woody1985

Does he not claim that about everything that happens?

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No. I believe Chavez blamed the Michael Jackson death on the perils of excessive childhood fame, and the demise of Tiffany on the fact she was ginger.

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Originally Posted by NYHibby

When did the US try to invade Cuba? Don't try to claim the Bay of Pigs was it. That was native Cubans returning to their own country. We had every right to isolate Cuba. They had nuclear missiles that were ready to be launched at any number of American cities.

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1898-1902 approx still there i believe:wink:

I understand the Honduran Supreme Court have said they authorised the removal of Zelaya in order to 'defend the rule of law'.

Putting aside political affiliations, if an elected but time-bound leader looks to change the constitution to allow themselves to potentially remain in power, and such a move is ruled illegal by the courts and the leader acts to carry on regardless - and given that the Honduran constitution is clear that the rules on terms of office are not allowed to be amended - isn't the Supreme Court merely upholding the constitution, as distasteful as that might be for some of us :dunno:

I'm naturally suspicious of who stands to gain when any leftist government comes to any sort of end, but leaving that aside it's hard to see how any notion of liberal democracy is achievable without justice as its central precept. The mechanisms we use to achieve that tend to be based around constitutional law and a judiciary as arbiters of that. If we don't sign up to that process then it's difficult to see how we can claim to be truly interested in liberalism or democracy.

Obviously that's no concern for the revolutionaries :greengrin

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

If Obama wants to prove his 'break from the past' credentials, he should be campaigning for the return of the democratically elected Govt. Chavez has already claimed the CIA is behind it.

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What is your point here, why are you giving so much credence to Chavez's opinion? Zelaya has said the US did not ratify the coup. The quote below is from your your original post:

"Everything was in place for the coup and if the US embassy had approved it, it would have happened. But they did not," Mr Zelaya said.


Obama quote below from the BBC article, what more can he do...Military intervention to support democracy...that was an unprecendented success in Iraq and Vietnem.....

The White House denied any involvement; President Barack Obama urged Honduras to "respect the rule of law"

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Originally Posted by Woody1985

Does he not claim that about everything that happens?

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Almost everything....I might try to kill him if he spread all these rumours about me....:wink::wink::wink:


http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/06/25/77002.html

http://newsfromrussia.com/world/2005/12/02/68996.html

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id...onid=351020704

http://www.hindu.com/2005/11/23/stor...2305281700.htm

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Originally Posted by Green Mikey

Almost everything....I might try to kill him if he spread all these rumours about me....:wink::wink::wink:


http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/06/25/77002.html

http://newsfromrussia.com/world/2005/12/02/68996.html

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id...onid=351020704

http://www.hindu.com/2005/11/23/stor...2305281700.htm

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:LOL:

He certainly knows a lot about everything eh.

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Originally Posted by hibsbollah

If Obama wants to prove his 'break from the past' credentials, he should be campaigning for the return of the democratically elected Govt. Chavez has already claimed the CIA is behind it.

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I wouldn't hold your breath! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye...®

I understand the Honduran Supreme Court have said they authorised the removal of Zelaya in order to 'defend the rule of law'.

Putting aside political affiliations, if an elected but time-bound leader looks to change the constitution to allow themselves to potentially remain in power, and such a move is ruled illegal by the courts and the leader acts to carry on regardless - and given that the Honduran constitution is clear that the rules on terms of office are not allowed to be amended - isn't the Supreme Court merely upholding the constitution, as distasteful as that might be for some of us :dunno:

I'm naturally suspicious of who stands to gain when any leftist government comes to any sort of end, but leaving that aside it's hard to see how any notion of liberal democracy is achievable without justice as its central precept. The mechanisms we use to achieve that tend to be based around constitutional law and a judiciary as arbiters of that. If we don't sign up to that process then it's difficult to see how we can claim to be truly interested in liberalism or democracy.

Obviously that's no concern for the revolutionaries :greengrin

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There was to be democratic vote on a new constitution, I think that's laudable. Would anyone really want an entirely immutable constitution? What's the good of that?

Also, term limits are really, really stoooopid.

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Originally Posted by NYHibby

When did the US try to invade Cuba? Don't try to claim the Bay of Pigs was it. That was native Cubans returning to their own country. We had every right to isolate Cuba. They had nuclear missiles that were ready to be launched at any number of American cities.

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1) The embargo/isolation of Cuba was put into place nearly a year before the missile bases were built. And that's not to say that was the beginning of attempts to destabilise the country.

2) I'd be very surprised if the U.S. didn't have nukes trained on Havana.

What's your point?

Oh, and although it would be slightly foolish to say outright that the CIA/US were behind it, it's not really a surprise to learn that the leader of the coup, Romeo Vazquez, is a graduate of the School of the Americas.

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Originally Posted by LiverpoolHibs

There was to be democratic vote on a new constitution, I think that's laudable. Would anyone really want an entirely immutable constitution? What's the good of that?

Also, term limits are really, really stoooopid.

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Putting aside what kind of vote Zelaya was trying to offer, and whether you think immutable aspects of a constitution are wrong (maybe you have no immutable beliefs? :devil:)and putting aside your view on term limits;

If his actions were ruled to be unconstitutional by the Supreme Court then isn't it intrinsically unjust for him to be allowed to carry on trying to carry them out?

As I said, it might not sit comfortably with a lot of us but if you have a constitutional democracy, you have a mechanism for interpreting it (and that tends to be the judiciary) and in this case the mechanism acted, it would appear, within the legal framework granted to it.

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Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye...®

Putting aside what kind of vote Zelaya was trying to offer, and whether you think immutable aspects of a constitution are wrong (maybe you have no immutable beliefs? :devil:)and putting aside your view on term limits;

If his actions were ruled to be unconstitutional by the Supreme Court then isn't it intrinsically unjust for him to be allowed to carry on trying to carry them out?

As I said, it might not sit comfortably with a lot of us but if you have a constitutional democracy, you have a mechanism for interpreting it (and that tends to be the judiciary) and in this case the mechanism acted, it would appear, within the legal framework granted to it.

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I don't think so, technically illegal maybe but not unjust. I suppose it depends on why the referendum (which, so I've read, was actually about whether a referendum on whether a referendum should be held rather than a referendum to change the constitution) was deemed illegal.

Then again, maybe I'm just a despot at heart and don't have the requisite level of respect for 'venerable' democratic institutions. :greengrin

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Originally Posted by LiverpoolHibs

I don't think so, technically illegal maybe but not unjust. I suppose it depends on why the referendum (which, so I've read, was actually about whether a referendum on whether a referendum should be held rather than a referendum to change the constitution) was deemed illegal.

Then again, maybe I'm just a despot at heart and don't have the requisite level of respect for 'venerable' democratic institutions. :greengrin

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That's the beauty of despotism though, it cuts right throught the bureaucracy :agree: :greengrin

Another left wing Latin American head of state wanting to extend his term of office without the inconvenience of a democratic mandate. What a surprise! The certifiable Hugo Chavez has been trying this one on for years, and Castro wouldn't know a democratic mandate if it got tangled in his beard. A sizeable chunk of his population has already voted with their feet (or boats, rafts or whatever will get them away from the economic disaster inflicted on their country).

The Nicaraguan Sandanistas - darlings of the North London Guardianistas, at least did submit themselves to democratic elections - and were roundly humped. Their comrades are obviously determined not to repeat that mistake.

Conveniently, when the people they claim to represent get teed off with these power-greedy Marxist demagogues, they can always blame the CIA.

Amending your country's constitution can be a good and positive thing. Doing it to cling on to power in the face of yet another populace discovering that socialism is just state-created poverty in the making is just the first step on the road to dictatorship.

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Originally Posted by khib70

Another left wing Latin American head of state wanting to extend his term of office without the inconvenience of a democratic mandate. What a surprise! The certifiable Hugo Chavez has been trying this one on for years, and Castro wouldn't know a democratic mandate if it got tangled in his beard. A sizeable chunk of his population has already voted with their feet (or boats, rafts or whatever will get them away from the economic disaster inflicted on their country).

The Nicaraguan Sandanistas - darlings of the North London Guardianistas, at least did submit themselves to democratic elections - and were roundly humped. Their comrades are obviously determined not to repeat that mistake.

Conveniently, when the people they claim to represent get teed off with these power-greedy Marxist demagogues, they can always blame the CIA.

Amending your country's constitution can be a good and positive thing. Doing it to cling on to power in the face of yet another populace discovering that socialism is just state-created poverty in the making is just the first step on the road to dictatorship.

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Thats a complete reversal of whats actually happening. In reality, left wing Governments are getting voted in all over latin america, and the only right wing Govts left are US-supported dictatorships. I guess you know that though, and are just hoping other people havent noticed:thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by khib70

Another left wing Latin American head of state wanting to extend his term of office without the inconvenience of a democratic mandate. What a surprise! The certifiable Hugo Chavez has been trying this one on for years, and Castro wouldn't know a democratic mandate if it got tangled in his beard. A sizeable chunk of his population has already voted with their feet (or boats, rafts or whatever will get them away from the economic disaster inflicted on their country).

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Hold on, a democratic referendum on whether to hold a democratic referendum on changing the constitution that would entail removing term limits (which is one of the most ludicrous ways of enshrining democracy anyone could possibly think of) is 'extending his term of office without a democratic mandate'? Seriously?

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Originally Posted by khib70

The Nicaraguan Sandanistas - darlings of the North London Guardianistas, at least did submit themselves to democratic elections - and were roundly humped. Their comrades are obviously determined not to repeat that mistake.

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You mean the Nicaragua Sandinistas who are currently the democratically elected government of Nicaragua? Again, seriously?

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Originally Posted by khib70

Conveniently, when the people they claim to represent get teed off with these power-greedy Marxist demagogues, they can always blame the CIA.

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Hmmm, I'm struggling to think of a single right-wing coup d’état against a democratically elected left-wing/progressive government in Latin America that hasn't been fairly conclusively linked back to the U.S./C.I.A. in one form or another. If anyone could provide me with an example I'd be much obliged.

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Originally Posted by khib70

Amending your country's constitution can be a good and positive thing. Doing it to cling on to power in the face of yet another populace discovering that socialism is just state-created poverty in the making is just the first step on the road to dictatorship.

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Any evidence of the Honduran population that 'socialism is just state created poverty'. Are the Honduran armed forces the voice of the people?

All in all, one of the most astonishingly innacurate posts I think I've ever read on here.

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Originally Posted by LiverpoolHibs

Hold on, a democratic referendum on whether to hold a democratic referendum on changing the constitution that would entail removing term limits (which is one of the most ludicrous ways of enshrining democracy anyone could possibly think of) is 'extending his term of office without a democratic mandate'? Seriously?



You mean the Nicaragua Sandinistas who are currently the democratically elected government of Nicaragua? Again, seriously?



Hmmm, I'm struggling to think of a single right-wing coup d’état against a democratically elected left-wing/progressive government in Latin America that hasn't been fairly conclusively linked back to the U.S./C.I.A. in one form or another. If anyone could provide me with an example I'd be much obliged.



Any evidence of the Honduran population that 'socialism is just state created poverty'. Are the Honduran armed forces the voice of the people?

All in all, one of the most astonishingly innacurate posts I think I've ever read on here.

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IYHO
The Sandanistas were defeated in the 1990 elections and remained in opposition until 2006. They won that election due to a last minute split in their major opponents, the Liberals, who would otherwise have won easily.
This much is conceded even by the Wikipedia article on the FSLN which is outrageously biased in their favour. Or to put it in your terms, "accurate".

Mel Zelaya's referendum was judged unconstitutional by the country's supreme court, not the armed forces. After his removal a member of Zelaya's own party was sworn in to replace him by the Honduran Congress, who I think are closer to the voice of the Honduran people than Hugo Chavez. So there has been no military coup and the same party remains in power.

The only threat of outside intervention so far has come from the increasingly demented Chavez, who has threatened military intervention to reinstall Zelaya. Now who's nosing into other countries' affairs? Or is Chavez perhaps a tool of the CIA?

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Originally Posted by khib70

IYHO
The Sandanistas were defeated in the 1990 elections and remained in opposition until 2006. They won that election due to a last minute split in their major opponents, the Liberals, who would otherwise have won easily.
This much is conceded even by the Wikipedia article on the FSLN which is outrageously biased in their favour. Or to put it in your terms, "accurate".

Mel Zelaya's referendum was judged unconstitutional by the country's supreme court, not the armed forces. After his removal a member of Zelaya's own party was sworn in to replace him by the Honduran Congress, who I think are closer to the voice of the Honduran people than Hugo Chavez. So there has been no military coup and the same party remains in power.

The only threat of outside intervention so far has come from the increasingly demented Chavez, who has threatened military intervention to reinstall Zelaya. Now who's nosing into other countries' affairs? Or is Chavez perhaps a tool of the CIA?

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Indeed I think perhaps he may be!! :greengrin

Chavez goes on about Yankee involvement in everything yet it is he that is busy using his oil to further his own political agenda in South America (and beyond..fuel for London buses anyone?).

As for the OP, I don't see this as an American problem or issue but it is forever interesting that despite being denounced regularly for meddling America is always the first port of call when such problems as these arise and might need some sort of resolution...

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Originally Posted by khib70

IYHO
The Sandanistas were defeated in the 1990 elections and remained in opposition until 2006. They won that election due to a last minute split in their major opponents, the Liberals, who would otherwise have won easily.
This much is conceded even by the Wikipedia article on the FSLN which is outrageously biased in their favour. Or to put it in your terms, "accurate".

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They lost the 1990 election due to the country being completely ungovernable and the economy completely destroyed in the face of an American embargo and political and paramilitary activity of the Contras against their democratically elected government. And I'm sure we all know who funded and armed the Contras.

Your point about the 2006 election is correct, but you also fail to mention that there was an almost exactly equivalent split within the Sandinistas.

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Originally Posted by khib70

Mel Zelaya's referendum was judged unconstitutional by the country's supreme court, not the armed forces. After his removal a member of Zelaya's own party was sworn in to replace him by the Honduran Congress, who I think are closer to the voice of the Honduran people than Hugo Chavez. So there has been no military coup and the same party remains in power.

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Removing one leader and replacing him with another of their own choice (who was otably Zelaya major opponent within the party) isn't a coup? And it seems very much to me like the military are calling all of the shots so far.

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Originally Posted by khib70

The only threat of outside intervention so far has come from the increasingly demented Chavez, who has threatened military intervention to reinstall Zelaya. Now who's nosing into other countries' affairs? Or is Chavez perhaps a tool of the CIA?

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Any evidence that he's threatened restorative military action? He has, probably unhelpfully I agree, threatened military action should anything happen to the Venezuelan, Nicaraguan and Cuban ambassadors who had/have been arrested by the Honduran military.

I notice I still haven't been furnished with an example of a right wing coup against democratically elected, Latin American left-wing government that hasn't had the support or backing of the U.S./C.I.A.

Oh and it's rather interesting to compare and contrast the OAS response to events in Honduras with their response to the overhrow of Aristide in Haiti in 2004. Rather enlightening.

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Originally Posted by LiverpoolHibs

They lost the 1990 election due to the country being completely ungovernable and the economy completely destroyed in the face of an American embargo and political and paramilitary activity of the Contras against their democratically elected government. And I'm sure we all know who funded and armed the Contras.

Your point about the 2006 election is correct, but you also fail to mention that there was an almost exactly equivalent split within the Sandinistas.

And that split was caused by the objection by many in the FSLN leadership to the increased authoritarianism and absolutism of the saintly Daniel Ortega. Seemingly a bit of a pandemic amongst left wing Latin American leaders?



Removing one leader and replacing him with another of their own choice (who was otably Zelaya major opponent within the party) isn't a coup? And it seems very much to me like the military are calling all of the shots so far.

The choice of replacement was made by the democratically elected congress, not the military, from all the reports I have read.



Any evidence that he's threatened restorative military action? He has, probably unhelpfully I agree, threatened military action should anything happen to the Venezuelan, Nicaraguan and Cuban ambassadors who had/have been arrested by the Honduran military.

"The Times" p 27 quoting Chavez on Venezuelan TV "We will bring them down, we will bring them down, I tell you."

I notice I still haven't been furnished with an example of a right wing coup against democratically elected, Latin American left-wing government that hasn't had the support or backing of the U.S./C.I.A.

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I didn't suggest that the US was not involved in coups against left wing governments. Of course it was. What I was saying was that this allows any left wing government to shout "CIA" whenever they inevitably screw up.

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Originally Posted by khib70

And that split was caused by the objection by many in the FSLN leadership to the increased authoritarianism and absolutism of the saintly Daniel Ortega. Seemingly a bit of a pandemic amongst left wing Latin American leaders?

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Really? Where's that information coming from? Everything I've read on it suggests it was pretty much the equivalent of the SDP split from the Labour Party.

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Originally Posted by khib70

The choice of replacement was made by the democratically elected congress, not the military, from all the reports I have read.

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Having read a bit on this just know it seems we're both wrong. It's in the constitution that the Head of Congress assumes control if the President is forced from office or leaves office.

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Originally Posted by khib70

"The Times" p 27 quoting Chavez on Venezuelan TV "We will bring them down, we will bring them down, I tell you."

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Oh come on! That's the basis for saying he's threatened military action to reinstate Zelaya?

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Originally Posted by khib70

I didn't suggest that the US was not involved in coups against left wing governments. Of course it was. What I was saying was that this allows any left wing government to shout "CIA" whenever they inevitably screw up.

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What I'm saying is that they're usually justified historically in shouting that...