Air India crash

[He's here!]

Sounds horrific. Judging by the footage it's scarcely believable that at least one person appears to have survived.

I'm guessing catastrophic system failure almost as soon as they took off. They'd presumably have said by now if there was anything terror-related?

[Sylar]

Sounds horrific. Judging by the footage it's scarcely believable that at least one person appears to have survived.

I'm guessing catastrophic system failure almost as soon as they took off. They'd presumably have said by now if there was anything terror-related?

It mayday'ed as soon as it took off then went dark. Based on the one video I've seen online, it just seemed to glide gradually to ground rather than anything 'sudden'.

Tragic and substantial loss of life (with many being British too, obviously). Very sad all around.

[Jack]

Sounds horrific. Judging by the footage it's scarcely believable that at least one person appears to have survived.

I'm guessing catastrophic system failure almost as soon as they took off. They'd presumably have said by now if there was anything terror-related?

The Indian government has already cancelled another flight to the UK today. India has armed agents on all flights and is at the highest alert following a string of bomb warnings in recent years.

I wouldn't rule out terrorism yet.

[Callum_62]

Obviously a little hard to see on the video but it didn't look like any flaps were extended

The landing gear still was though

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[tamig]

Obviously a little hard to see on the video but it didn't look like any flaps were extended

The landing gear still was though

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The landing gear is the first thing to be retracted after take-off - before the flaps. But the flaps appeared to be retracted with the landing gear still extended. Which is very unusual. The plane almost looked like it was coming in to land as it crashed.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Saw a video earlier, posted by a young British couple from the airport before they boarded that plane. And another by the same couple taken last night as they enjoyed their last night in India. So happy, so full of life. It's unspeakably sad.

[Bristolhibby]

One survivor. This is like the Bruce Willis and Samuel L Jackson film Unbreakable.

J

[Pretty Boy]

If it's been some kind of error with or malfunction of the flaps rather than pilot error or other external causation then it's a total disaster for Boeing. After the fatal crashes following the launch of the latest 737 Max programmes and the subsequent groundings and delays, the issues when the 787 first launched and the whistleblower scandal it's been a litany of issues for a decade.

Obviously far from the most important consideration when you are talking about 200+ lives lost but airlines need to have confidence in their fleet, passengers likewise. Hopefully the investigation comes up with a reason quickly.

[Jim44]

Sounds horrific. Judging by the footage it's scarcely believable that at least one person appears to have survived.

I'm guessing catastrophic system failure almost as soon as they took off. They'd presumably have said by now if there was anything terror-related?


The Indian government has already cancelled another flight to the UK today. India has armed agents on all flights and is at the highest alert following a string of bomb warnings in recent years.

I wouldn't rule out terrorism yet.

I read a report not long after the incident, by an aviation expert. He wasn’t holding back and said that the circumstances and behaviour of the plane at that stage of flight was highly unusual. He was certainly alluding to the strong possibility of foul-play.

[jamie_1875]

I am flying the same model in a month, I am hoping one positive of this tragedy is they are double and triple checking the planes when the cause of this is confirmed. Assuming it's some kind to malfunction.

[Callum_62]

I read a report not long after the incident, by an aviation expert. He wasn’t holding back and said that the circumstances and behaviour of the plane at that stage of flight was highly unusual. He was certainly alluding to the strong possibility of foul-play.Actually the initial take off climb looked pretty normal but seemed to lose all lift right around the positive rate /gear up height

I said earlier it looks like no flaps were extended but given the initial climb I now doubt that to be the cause

It would cause a whole host of alarms in the cockpit too



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[Bristolhibby]

I am flying the same model in a month, I am hoping one positive of this tragedy is they are double and triple checking the planes when the cause of this is confirmed. Assuming it's some kind to malfunction.

Did a double check of my flights this summer. On a few long haul wide bodies just wanted to check.

777s and 737-800s (not Max).

J

[grunt]

If it's been some kind of error with or malfunction of the flaps rather than pilot error or other external causation then it's a total disaster for Boeing. After the fatal crashes following the launch of the latest 737 Max programmes and the subsequent groundings and delays, the issues when the 787 first launched and the whistleblower scandal it's been a litany of issues for a decade.

What issues were these? All the commentary I heard yesterday was about how safe the 787 Dreamliner was. "Never had an accident" was what I heard.

[Callum_62]

What issues were these? All the commentary I heard yesterday was about how safe the 787 Dreamliner was. "Never had an accident" was what I heard.One of the batteries were prone to catching fire

They were grounded for a while which they basically put them in a better box if I recall correctly

Also the infamous doco on the declining manufacturing standards at Boeing cast doubt on how safe the 787s really were

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[Pretty Boy]

What issues were these? All the commentary I heard yesterday was about how safe the 787 Dreamliner was. "Never had an accident" was what I heard.

As said above it was issues around the lithium batteries. It was the first ordered grounding of an entire fleet of a single aircraft model since the DC-10 35 years earlier (that was due to a serious design flaw in the cargo doors).

All things are relative though. Air travel is exceptionally safe and the 787 is an amazing, revolutionary aircraft. Everything, including my earlier post, is just speculation at the moment and I'd happily board one and fly tomorrow.

[He's here!]

As said above it was issues around the lithium batteries. It was the first ordered grounding of an entire fleet of a single aircraft model since the DC-10 35 years earlier (that was due to a serious design flaw in the cargo doors).

All things are relative though. Air travel is exceptionally safe and the 787 is an amazing, revolutionary aircraft. Everything, including my earlier post, is just speculation at the moment and I'd happily board one and fly tomorrow.

The 'exceptionally safe' line, while it stacks up statistically, seems quite a clinical way to endorse air travel. The scale of the horror when things do go wrong dwarfs that of a couple cars crashing on the motorway, hideous as that is for those impacted.

[ardecos]

As said above it was issues around the lithium batteries. It was the first ordered grounding of an entire fleet of a single aircraft model since the DC-10 35 years earlier (that was due to a serious design flaw in the cargo doors).

All things are relative though. Air travel is exceptionally safe and the 787 is an amazing, revolutionary aircraft. Everything, including my earlier post, is just speculation at the moment and I'd happily board one and fly tomorrow.

I flew on one today (KLM) and survived to tell the tale.

[Pretty Boy]

The 'exceptionally safe' line, while it stacks up statistically, seems quite a clinical way to endorse air travel. The scale of the horror when things do go wrong dwarfs that of a couple cars crashing on the motorway, hideous as that is for those impacted.

Clinical, but true.

The WHO estimates 3260 people die in car accidents every day. That's almost 23K a week, 100K a month and 1.2M a year. So if yesterday was an average day 13 times more people died in cars than in a plane crash. And that's continuous; week after week. With plane crashes it's unlikely there will be another notable one on such a scale for years. It's probably why car crashes rarely make the news or if they do it's local news unless it's something on a massive scale. Plane crashes are massive global news because they are so rare.

It's something that stops you in your tracks when you see footage like what was published yesterday because it is undeniably dramatic and horrific. I'm not convinced the 3260 families who lost loved ones in less spectacular circumstances think their pain is in any way dwarfed though. And it's far more likely we'll experience that than ever have to think about a plane crash beyond it being a news story we follow for a day or 2.

[silverhibee]

The survivor has said there was a bang on the plane before it crashed., black box and digital flight data recorder both found.

He is saying the plane was struck.

[overdrive]

The survivor has said there was a bang on the plane before it crashed., black box and digital flight data recorder both found.

He is saying the plane was struck.

Are you sure you haven’t misread? In the BBC article I read, he says the plane was "stuck in the air", not struck.

[Lendo]

It’s pretty clear from the take off footage that it was struggling to gain altitude from the off and appears to have overrun the takeoff zone a bit, indicated by the cloud of dust that came up when it eventually got in the air.

Also read that it was an “intersection take off” meaning it wasn’t using the whole of the run way. Maybe an error by the pilot or air traffic controller. Misjudged the thrust needed on a shorter take off perhaps.

Interesting that there was no attempt to bring up the landing gear.

[Callum_62]

It’s pretty clear from the take off footage that it was struggling to gain altitude from the off and appears to have overrun the takeoff zone a bit, indicated by the cloud of dust that came up when it eventually got in the air.

Also read that it was an “intersection take off” meaning it wasn’t using the whole of the run way. Maybe an error by the pilot or air traffic controller. Misjudged the thrust needed on a shorter take off perhaps.

Interesting that there was no attempt to bring up the landing gear.They used the full runway - the intersection take off was taken from erroneous flight radar data

They backtracked the runway to take off using the full length available

Initially the climb looks normal to me but soon loses all energy

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[silverhibee]

Are you sure you haven’t misread? In the BBC article I read, he says the plane was "stuck in the air", not struck.

This was on sky news as he is now doing interviews.

[grunt]

One of the batteries were prone to catching fire

They were grounded for a while which they basically put them in a better box if I recall correctly

Also the infamous doco on the declining manufacturing standards at Boeing cast doubt on how safe the 787s really were


As said above it was issues around the lithium batteries. It was the first ordered grounding of an entire fleet of a single aircraft model since the DC-10 35 years earlier (that was due to a serious design flaw in the cargo doors).
Thanks both.

[He's here!]

Clinical, but true.

The WHO estimates 3260 people die in car accidents every day. That's almost 23K a week, 100K a month and 1.2M a year. So if yesterday was an average day 13 times more people died in cars than in a plane crash. And that's continuous; week after week. With plane crashes it's unlikely there will be another notable one on such a scale for years. It's probably why car crashes rarely make the news or if they do it's local news unless it's something on a massive scale. Plane crashes are massive global news because they are so rare.

It's something that stops you in your tracks when you see footage like what was published yesterday because it is undeniably dramatic and horrific. I'm not convinced the 3260 families who lost loved ones in less spectacular circumstances think their pain is in any way dwarfed though. And it's far more likely we'll experience that than ever have to think about a plane crash beyond it being a news story we follow for a day or 2.

I wasn't disagreeing with anything you said, but while you can't legislate for other road users when you set off in your car you're to a certain extent in control. I think what also amplifies the horror of a plane crash (or for that matter any disaster involving mass transportion vehicles) is that your fate is entirely outwith your hands.

[Billy Whizz]

Ex pilot on bbs Scotland news just now, without pointing at anything in particular, saying the 1st officer only had 1000 flying hours on a 787

[pollution]

Leave it to the black boxes, speculation is unhelpful.

[tamig]

Ex pilot on bbs Scotland news just now, without pointing at anything in particular, saying the 1st officer only had 1000 flying hours on a 787

There was an air accident expert on 5 Live yesterday who was looking at some of the possible causes. He mentioned there was an accident from several years ago where a less experienced first officer was in charge of take-off. He retracted the flaps instead of the undercarriage - the video evidence points to similarities in this case - and the plane stalled and came down. He did say that it wasn’t possible to confirm without the full flight data but he thought that was a strong possibility.

[Jack]

There was an air accident expert on 5 Live yesterday who was looking at some of the possible causes. He mentioned there was an accident from several years ago where a less experienced first officer was in charge of take-off. He retracted the flaps instead of the undercarriage - the video evidence points to similarities in this case - and the plane stalled and came down. He did say that it wasn’t possible to confirm without the full flight data but he thought that was a strong possibility.

From the video it doesn't look as though the flaps were deployed at all.

[Callum_62]

From the video it doesn't look as though the flaps were deployed at all.Pretty sure they were - grainy video and a smallish flap setting makes it hard to see - certainly from the wreckage seems like flaps were deployed

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[Lendo]

Some new evidence today that it was a perhaps a duel engine failure. New video showing the RAT on the plane was deployed (a small two blade prop under the aircraft). It deploys automatically on a duel engine, hydraulic or electrical failure.

[speedy_gonzales]

Some new evidence today that it was a perhaps a duel engine failure. New video showing the RAT on the plane was deployed (a small two blade prop under the aircraft). It deploys automatically on a duel engine, hydraulic or electrical failure.

That was reported within hours of the crash, a lot of airplane "experts" clocked the ram air turbine deployed. Apparently only happens on power failure and is needed to provide auxiliary power to criticism systems.

[Hibrandenburg]

Social media is now awash with photos of some of those who perished in this awful tragedy. Some of the stories are absolutely heart breaking.