What's the point/what can change?

[lugz]

As the title says, what's the point? Celtic now one game away from a another treble.
They have won 13 of the last 14 league seasons.
A win against Aberdeen would mean they've won 7 of the last 9 scottish cups.
Same again for league cup winning 7 of the last 9.

With the massive gulf in squad quality and financial resources it doesn't look like these stats will improve any time soon.

[greenlex]

For days like in feb at Easter Road. Very very sweet.

[GreenCastle]

6 games against Celtic like this season is far from ideal.

[lugz]

6 games them this season is far from ideal.

And truth be told it's probably only us (at home) or possibly rangers that could have stopped another treble.

[DH1875]

And truth be told it's probably only us (at home) or possibly rangers that could have stopped another treble.

Us being that team gives me a fuzzy feeling. Been going to ER for 30 years now. Other then the championship years I've never expected or expect us to win the league.

[GreenNWhiteArmy]

Them beating Aberdeen hopefully helps us. It is what it is. We have our days, or weeks like in feb/Mar where supporting a club like Hibs trumps beating every other team at a Canter

[Alfred E Newman]

As the title says, what's the point? Celtic now one game away from a another treble.
They have won 13 of the last 14 league seasons.
A win against Aberdeen would mean they've won 7 of the last 9 scottish cups.
Same again for league cup winning 7 of the last 9.

With the massive gulf in squad quality and financial resources it doesn't look like these stats will improve any time soon.

For all that, who on here hasn't enjoyed the last 5 months?

[Jones28]

Christ sakes, the last 4 months are literally what we follow football for.

Your rivals are *****, you love the team and there’s an awesome connection.

Its never about trophies or success for us and the majority of football fans, its about the micro moments of fun and winning games that make worthwhile.

If that’s not for you then I suggest you change allegiance or lower expectations.

[lugz]

Christ sakes, the last 4 months are literally what we follow football for.

Your rivals are *****, you love the team and there’s an awesome connection.

Its never about trophies or success for us and the majority of football fans, its about the micro moments of fun and winning games that make worthwhile.

If that’s not for you then I suggest you change allegiance or lower expectations.

Oh I'm well aware of the expectations and how things work just stating its a real shame that the product as a whole is very predictable.

Like other have said we have to enjoy the good times and live in hope of winning the occasional trophy.

[worcesterhibby]

As the title says, what's the point? Celtic now one game away from a another treble.
They have won 13 of the last 14 league seasons.
A win against Aberdeen would mean they've won 7 of the last 9 scottish cups.
Same again for league cup winning 7 of the last 9.

With the massive gulf in squad quality and financial resources it doesn't look like these stats will improve any time soon.

such a weird question when the teams on a 17 match unbeaten run.. have beaten Hearts twice beaten Rangers at ibrox, beaten Celtic at ER…

The point is you love your team, you celebrate the victories and take the defeats on the chin… but when the once a decade cup win..does come along… it feels better than any Celtic fan will ever experience.

[hibsbollah]

Oh I'm well aware of the expectations and how things work just stating its a real shame that the product as a whole is very predictable.

Like other have said we have to enjoy the good times and live in hope of winning the occasional trophy.

Salary cap and allocated draft for free agents.
I somehow doubt that the uglies would go for it.

[lugz]

such a weird question when the teams on a 17 match unbeaten run.. have beaten Hearts twice beaten Rangers at ibrox, beaten Celtic at ER…

The point is you love your team, you celebrate the victories and take the defeats on the chin… but when the once a decade cup win..does come along… it feels better than any Celtic fan will ever experience.

It's more just a reaction to todays result and my hatred of celtic shining through haha.

You're absolutely right, the trophies we have won in my life time will all be more special than the annual double/treble that their fans experience.

[Dashing Bob S]

Christ sakes, the last 4 months are literally what we follow football for.

Your rivals are *****, you love the team and there’s an awesome connection.

Its never about trophies or success for us and the majority of football fans, its about the micro moments of fun and winning games that make worthwhile.

If that’s not for you then I suggest you change allegiance or lower expectations.




I think we do strive for success, we just still measure it in footballing rather financial terms.

Celtic no longer win trophies, they buy them. They just have to remember to show up to collect them. They've already bought the league next season and possibly both cups unless they slip up and fall asleep at the wheel. As a consequence, the only real excitement in Scotland are the 3-6 European positions, and for the smaller clubs like Hearts, the 7-12 battle for the relegation slots.

For Celtic fans the domestic season is an empty and meaningless experience for all but the most brain-dead and child-like professional celebrators.

The only real prospect of genuine glory for them is in Europe where they are inevitably humped on a level playing field.

In the domestic cups we're all hoping for them to basically slip up, or be euro fatigued while facing an away tie at ER, Ibrox or Pittodrie.

But the domestic trophy haul is a joyless procession, only a v-sign to the Huns. When anyone (bar the huns) lifts one of the cups, it will be a truly momentous occasion.

[B.H.F.C]

We need to consistently punch our weight. We’re doing it this season, we often don’t. Do that consistently over a period of years and we’ll get some form of success along the line. Even with little prospect of winning a trophy the last few months has been brilliant and I can’t wait for a European trip.

[Keith_M]

I want to assure everybody that the following is not how I want things to pan out, but...


The only way I can see this ending is for Celtc (and possibly The Rangers) to either move to the English Leagues, or for the larger European clubs to form their own league structure and one or both to be invited.

TBH, from my PoV, the latter is the most likely outcome.

[lugz]

I want to assure everybody that the following is now how I want things to pan out, but...


The only way I can see this ending is for Celtc (and possibly The Rangers) to either move to the English Leagues, or for the larger European clubs to form their own league structure and one or both to be invited.

TBH, from my PoV, the latter is the most likely outcome.

I've been of the opinion that this would be for the best for a while now. Yes the league may look like Welsh league or league of Ireland but at least year on year it would be extremely competitive.
Suppose the counter argument to that would be that ourselves, hearts, Aberdeen could then gain investment and become the new old firm dominating the game.

[NAE NOOKIE]

What needs to change is the financial playing field, but we all know it isn't going to. Even if a club did source a sugar daddy willing to pump in the millions it would take to compete with the Uglies on anything like a regular basis, as soon as that club sets foot into Europe their FFP rules would get it banned. And there is simply no chance that either the SFA, or on the bigger stage UEFA, are ever going to introduce a salary cap that would bring the likes of us closer to Celtic in Scotland, or Celtic closer to Liverpool in Europe.

The point is simply supporting your club and that already happens in some parts of Europe, particularly Germany. IMO that has become more of a thing here than it ever was, as witness the willingness of folk to turn out in big numbers to support Hibs. Hearts and Aberdeen even though they know, and have known for years, that their club has absolutely no chance of winning the league.

There's a load of things that could happen, like a breakaway league that excludes the Uglies. But we all know that if that happened two things would happen:

A) UEFA would exclude us from their competitions, because the clubs who dominate their leagues around Europe would pressure them to do it fearing similar happening in their own leagues.

B) Celtic and Sevco would worm their way into the English system, eventually leading to them dominating all of the football coverage in this country the way Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham do in Wales, making the domestic league a byline 5 pages into the back pages of all the papers and in the fullness of time every kid in the country supporting them as they work their way up the leagues.

[Speedy]

For the next month or so. I hope nothing changes. Celtic do their bit by winning the cup and group stage European football at ER.

[Since90+2]

What needs to change is the financial playing field, but we all know it isn't going to. Even if a club did source a sugar daddy willing to pump in the millions it would take to compete with the Uglies on anything like a regular basis, as soon as that club sets foot into Europe their FFP rules would get it banned. And there is simply no chance that either the SFA, or on the bigger stage UEFA, are ever going to introduce a salary cap that would bring the likes of us closer to Celtic in Scotland, or Celtic closer to Liverpool in Europe.

The point is simply supporting your club and that already happens in some parts of Europe, particularly Germany. IMO that has become more of a thing here than it ever was, as witness the willingness of folk to turn out in big numbers to support Hibs. Hearts and Aberdeen even though they know, and have known for years, that their club has absolutely no chance of winning the league.

There's a load of things that could happen, like a breakaway league that excludes the Uglies. But we all know that if that happened two things would happen:

A) UEFA would exclude us from their competitions, because the clubs who dominate their leagues around Europe would pressure them to do it fearing similar happening in their own leagues.

B) Celtic and Sevco would worm their way into the English system, eventually leading to them dominating all of the football coverage in this country the way Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham do in Wales, making the domestic league a byline 5 pages into the back pages of all the papers and in the fullness of time every kid in the country supporting them as they work their way up the leagues.

On your last paragraph, I'd say that's somewhat but not totally true.

The Welsh League doesn't have any clubs close to the size of Hibs, Hearts or Aberdeen.

Even the Dundee clubs, Motherwell, St Mirren ect are far bigger and have much larger supports than any club in that league.

The League of Wales is probably similar to Scottish League 1 in terms of attendance.

Without checking id imagine that Hibs alone have a bigger average attendance than the entire Welsh league combined.

[one day maybe...]

A 20 team league, no live games on tv. 🙂

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Cue Americans entering stage left…

But…

i was coincidentally thinking about this earlier. What can teams do given they don’t have the financial clout and with that in mind what about Hibs?

John Collins was ahead of his time and got it. Although the wheels came off the cart.

One thing you can compete on is fitness. Lack of fitness should NEVER be an excuse at Hibs with the embarrassment of riches we have in terms of facilities and sports scientists.

Be organised and execute game plans

Develops the right culture. Feed off and create an expectation and a “winning culture” easy to say difficult to achieve cos everyone can say that

Hire and develop players with the right character.

Develop the technical attributes of players.

Speed up the execution of patterns of play against the opposition. I’ve watched Arsenal and Newcastle at points this season and they are almost unplayable when they speed up their execution. That needs players of a certain calibre.

Just my logical conclusions in the absence of dosh

And if you look at what SDG has built you can see quite a few if not all of these elements are in place.

[Itsnoteasy]

As the title says, what's the point? Celtic now one game away from a another treble.
They have won 13 of the last 14 league seasons.
A win against Aberdeen would mean they've won 7 of the last 9 scottish cups.
Same again for league cup winning 7 of the last 9.

With the massive gulf in squad quality and financial resources it doesn't look like these stats will improve any time soon.

Just the same as Huns winning 9 in a row in 90's.
Like most other leagues around the world same teams win everything.

[InvertedFullBak]

Nothing will change until we get rid of the Glasgow pair. We had the chance years ago but Aberdeen bottled it. We’d need all the clubs to stay strong and attempt to go it alone but they won’t.

[lugz]

Just the same as Huns winning 9 in a row in 90's.
Like most other leagues around the world same teams win everything.

I was very young in the 90s and will happily stand corrected but this feels like the biggest gap certainly as far as I can remember. Not only are celtic winning the league almost every single year they're now financially much better off than Rangers.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Nothing will change until we get rid of the Glasgow pair. We had the chance years ago but Aberdeen bottled it. We’d need all the clubs to stay strong and attempt to go it alone but they won’t.
Which begs the question - what deal did Aberdeen cut to ensure the status quo remained?

[hibsbollah]

I was very young in the 90s and will happily stand corrected but this feels like the biggest gap certainly as far as I can remember. Not only are celtic winning the league almost every single year they're now financially much better off than Rangers.

In the early part of their 9 in a row, Rangers main competition came from Aberdeen; Celtic were 3rd, 4th 5th over that time, and Aberdeen came close a few times. The Celtic dominance is a lot wider now than Rangers’ was then, and also The Rangers are now also clearer ahead in 2nd from the chasing pack.

[ancient hibee]

Cue Americans entering stage left…

But…

i was coincidentally thinking about this earlier. What can teams do given they don’t have the financial clout and with that in mind what about Hibs?

John Collins was ahead of his time and got it. Although the wheels came off the cart.

One thing you can compete on is fitness. Lack of fitness should NEVER be an excuse at Hibs with the embarrassment of riches we have in terms of facilities and sports scientists.

Be organised and execute game plans

Develops the right culture. Feed off and create an expectation and a “winning culture” easy to say difficult to achieve cos everyone can say that

Hire and develop players with the right character.

Develop the technical attributes of players.

Speed up the execution of patterns of play against the opposition. I’ve watched Arsenal and Newcastle at points this season and they are almost unplayable when they speed up their execution. That needs players of a certain calibre.

Just my logical conclusions in the absence of dosh

And if you look at what SDG has built you can see quite a few if not all of these elements are in place.

Very good post and in an aside -if this was an 8 game league we would have walked it(while doing plenty of running of course.):greengrin

[snedzuk]

Christ sakes, the last 4 months are literally what we follow football for.

Your rivals are *****, you love the team and there’s an awesome connection.

Its never about trophies or success for us and the majority of football fans, its about the micro moments of fun and winning games that make worthwhile.

If that’s not for you then I suggest you change allegiance or lower expectations.

In fairness he didn't say it was about trophies or success for us. It's about one club winning pretty much everything.

[Frazerbob]

There’s a photo doing the rounds of Celtic fans streaming out of Hampden at half time. 4-0 up in a semi and the pub is more appealing. I remember their fans leaving before the trophy presentation when they beat us in the LC final a few years ago. Must be pish being a Celtic fan.

[hibsbollah]

There’s a photo doing the rounds of Celtic fans streaming out of Hampden at half time. 4-0 up in a semi and the pub is more appealing. I remember their fans leaving before the trophy presentation when they beat us in the LC final a few years ago. Must be pish being a Celtic fan.

Must also be confusing to be the self-styled ‘rebel’ club and the establishment at the same tome.

[ben johnson]

I was very young in the 90s and will happily stand corrected but this feels like the biggest gap certainly as far as I can remember. Not only are celtic winning the league almost every single year they're now financially much better off than Rangers.

Very true. Rangers are behind Celtic because of their own actions
Paying top players EBT style. Tore Andre Floe 12 million.
Handing financial control over to sharks that smelt blood.
If you look at the EPL today. Two giants of the game at one time playing each other. Man U and Wolves. Fair enough Wolves 60s 70s a big team.

[Jones28]

Oh I'm well aware of the expectations and how things work just stating its a real shame that the product as a whole is very predictable.

Like other have said we have to enjoy the good times and live in hope of winning the occasional trophy.

It’s the unpredictability of football that offers the magic for me. Which is why it is always the ultimate sport for emotional extremes.

I don’t really care about the ins and outs of Scottish football as a whole, it’s not going to change unless something seriously drastic happens that is beyond the will of almost anyone.

Celtic and rangers will dominate, we will take the scraps, the third places, the odd flash of silverware, winning big games, European football. They will take the lions share. I’m fine with that, because I’m Hibs supporter and nothing will change that.

[ChicoM1875]

Cue Americans entering stage left…

But…

i was coincidentally thinking about this earlier. What can teams do given they don’t have the financial clout and with that in mind what about Hibs?

John Collins was ahead of his time and got it. Although the wheels came off the cart.

One thing you can compete on is fitness. Lack of fitness should NEVER be an excuse at Hibs with the embarrassment of riches we have in terms of facilities and sports scientists.

Be organised and execute game plans

Develops the right culture. Feed off and create an expectation and a “winning culture” easy to say difficult to achieve cos everyone can say that

Hire and develop players with the right character.

Develop the technical attributes of players.

Speed up the execution of patterns of play against the opposition. I’ve watched Arsenal and Newcastle at points this season and they are almost unplayable when they speed up their execution. That needs players of a certain calibre.

Just my logical conclusions in the absence of dosh

And if you look at what SDG has built you can see quite a few if not all of these elements are in place.

I agree with some of this. But John Collins was a terrible (man) manager so wasn't ahead of his time.

[ben johnson]

[QUOTE=ChicoM1875;7941936]I agree with some of this. But John Collins was a terrible (man) manager so wasn't ahead of his time.[/QUOTE

I think John Collins tried to bring in train , eat , rest , train in afternoon
Not what the players wanted. I was told by a guy connected to
Hibs that the car park was a dangerous place to wander about after training finished at lunch. All heading out at pace.

[Donegal Hibby]

I want to assure everybody that the following is now how I want things to pan out, but...


The only way I can see this ending is for Celtc (and possibly The Rangers) to either move to the English Leagues, or for the larger European clubs to form their own league structure and one or both to be invited.

TBH, from my PoV, the latter is the most likely outcome.

Losing the OF would certainly make the league / cups more competitive but I think the loss of revenue from gates , sky , sponsorship etc would see the quality of the league deteriorate , it probably would also have an effect when it came to trying to sign players as well .

[ChicoM1875]

[QUOTE=ChicoM1875;7941936]I agree with some of this. But John Collins was a terrible (man) manager so wasn't ahead of his time.[/QUOTE

I think John Collins tried to bring in train , eat , rest , train in afternoon
Not what the players wanted. I was told by a guy connected to
Hibs that the car park was a dangerous place to wander about after training finished at lunch. All heading out at pace.

Aye he probably tried to do the right thing... but he was a bit of a bell end and not a good man manager.

[Pagan Hibernia]

We've outperformed Celtic in the league over the last 4-5 months

[HibbyDave]

I want to assure everybody that the following is now how I want things to pan out, but...


The only way I can see this ending is for Celtc (and possibly The Rangers) to either move to the English Leagues, or for the larger European clubs to form their own league structure and one or both to be invited.

TBH, from my PoV, the latter is the most likely outcome.

I would only want them both to f-off if they are not allowed to retain a colts team in Scotland. We all know that the SFA would demand they retain a prescence so just keep the a team please.

[Jim44]

Firstly the answers to the OP’s questions - none/nothing

Celtic’s monopoly will never go away, except for the very rare intervention of a lucky Hun team, at most once or twice every twenty years. There’s absolutely no point in despairing about this fact and certainly no point in prompting prolonged discussion about it. The fact of the matter is that we have a ten team league which we will continue to contest, while snapping up any European tit bits that the Ugly Sisters earn for us in their annual futile European adventures. Sad but true. GGTTH :flag:

[Pagan Hibernia]

I would only want them both to f-off if they are not allowed to retain a colts team in Scotland. We all know that the SFA would demand they retain a prescence so just keep the a team please.

I've yet to see a persuasive argument that the arse cheeks pissing off to wherever would help the rest of us left in the Scottish leagues.

[ben johnson]

[QUOTE=ben johnson;7941938]

Aye he probably tried to do the right thing... but he was a bit of a bell end and not a good man manager.

Scottish International football player. Dragged himself to be the best he could to be called a bell end. Athlete and a football player.

[DH1875]

Said it before and will say it again. If it sucks being a Hibs, hearts or Aberdeen fan then it must really suck being a Hamilton, Partick Thistle or Airdrie fan.

[DH1875]

I've yet to see a persuasive argument that the arse cheeks pissing off to wherever would help the rest of us left in the Scottish leagues.

It wouldn't.

[tonyrougier123]

They can have this treble, but hibs will win the league next season 💪🏻.
In all honesty I see what the op is saying, I’m a dreamer, I think Edinburgh is growing and when the going is good at Easter road I think we’ve showed the potential a club the size of hibs can and are currently showing we can mix it, if we spend wisely and build a team and importantly don’t drop the ball because Europe has been achieved like we did last time under Ross. The sky is the limit for hibs. With owners willing to back an outsider and fans turning up in they’re droves who knows what hibs could achieve domestically. But as I say I’m a dreamer. Every August I have the greatest enthusiasm for the season ahead.

[TrinityHFC]

It wouldn't.

It could.

We get very little benefit just now from the TV money, media coverage or the supposedly better players we can attract because they are here.

Crowds come to see successful and competitive team. We currently get more Hibs fans in the stadium for some games not including the Old Firm.

A very competitive league would be left. In most years teams like us could conceivably be be top or bottom.

That competitiveness and the ability to play more meaningful games in terms of winning things would help make up whatever it is the Old Firm bring. It is also relative. We’d be competing against teams also losing or gaining whatever way we think it all works out.

I’ve yet to really hear what we actually get to achieve from the current advantages people think we get with them here?

[stoneyburn hibs]

Money

[ozhibs]

There’s a photo doing the rounds of Celtic fans streaming out of Hampden at half time. 4-0 up in a semi and the pub is more appealing. I remember their fans leaving before the trophy presentation when they beat us in the LC final a few years ago. Must be pish being a Celtic fan.

I watched the Hibee Buz and Dylan McGeoche. Said that the Celtic won it so often that it didn’t match the passion of the Hibs Scottish Cup win ( or words to that effect)
GGTTH 🇳🇬🇳🇬

[Jones28]

It could.

We get very little benefit just now from the TV money, media coverage or the supposedly better players we can attract because they are here.

Crowds come to see successful and competitive team. We currently get more Hibs fans in the stadium for some games not including the Old Firm.

A very competitive league would be left. In most years teams like us could conceivably be be top or bottom.

That competitiveness and the ability to play more meaningful games in terms of winning things would help make up whatever it is the Old Firm bring. It is also relative. We’d be competing against teams also losing or gaining whatever way we think it all works out.

I’ve yet to really hear what we actually get to achieve from the current advantages people think we get with them here?

It would be a lot of long term pain but in the end it would leave a better league behind it.

They do bring a bit of European clout in terms of co-efficient which I struggle to give a **** about but we probably need to start looking on it as a positive with the Conference and the money that brings from qualifying.

But then again we have seen what it does to teams who are playing regular European football and how detrimental it can be to their domestic performance.

[Pretty Boy]

The league is gone. No club other than Celtic or Rangers has won it in my lifetime thus far and at not even 40 and assuming a relatively 'normal' lifespan I don't expect that to change. If anyone did it would be a bigger achievement than Leicester winning the EPL, it wouldn't get the same coverage or plaudits but it absolutely would be.

The bigger concern for me is the cups. There was a spell when there was a real mix up of teams winning them. From 2010 to 2016 Dundee United, Hearts, St Johnstone, ICT and Hibs all won the Scottish Cup. Celtic won only 2 of 7. Since then they have won 7 of 9. In the League Cup over the same period Kilmarnock, St Mirren, Aberdeen and Ross County all won it. Celtic won only 1 of 7 and Rangers 2 of 7. Since then Celtic have won 7 of 9. The ludicrousness is summed up by the fact Brendan Rodgers has managed Celtic for 5 years over 2 spells and never lost a Scottish Cup game:faf: When even the cups with the unpredictability of knockout football become something of a closed shop then you have issues.

It's not an exclusively Scottish problem though. In the FA Cup since 2000 it has been dominated by Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool Man City and Man Utd winning 22 of the 25 finals. If you look at the 25 years between 1975 and 2000 you see West Ham, Southampton, Ipswich, Spurs, Everton, Coventry and Wimbledon winning it, a couple of them multiple times. The League Cup was a bit different in England as the top teams paid so little attention to it for years, particularly in the early rounds, but the last decade has still seen only Newcastle win it outside the traditional 'top 6'. Again if you look through the 80s and 90s you see teams like Norwich, Oxford, Luton, Sheffield Wednesday and Leicester win it.

Money has irreversibly changed football. There were always bigger clubs who had more money to throw about and thus were more successful but the TV deals, the guaranteed number of games in the Champions League, the huge sponsorship deals, the new fan markets and so on means what was once a gap has become a chasm. The gap previously could be bridged on occasion. Hearts and Hibs did it in the 50s, Dundee and Killie in the 60s, Aberdeen and Dundee United in the 80s. In England Derby, Leed and Forest did it in the 70s and Aston Villa and Everton in the 80s since then you have had Blackburn and Leicester in a 30+ year period (and the former spent serious money to achieve what they did). Is it a coincidence that the early 90s and the advent of Sky fottball and the CL saw these real closed shops emerge? I'm not much of one for coincidences.

[hibsbollah]

The league is gone. No club other than Celtic or Rangers has won it in my lifetime thus far and at not even 40 and assuming a relatively 'normal' lifespan I don't expect that to change. If anyone did it would be a bigger achievement than Leicester winning the EPL, it wouldn't get the same coverage or plaudits but it absolutely would be.

The bigger concern for me is the cups. There was a spell when there was a real mix up of teams winning them. From 2010 to 2016 Dundee United, Hearts, St Johnstone, ICT and Hibs all won the Scottish Cup. Celtic won only 2 of 7. Since then they have won 7 of 9. In the League Cup over the same period Kilmarnock, St Mirren, Aberdeen and Ross County all won it. Celtic won only 1 of 7 and Rangers 2 of 7. Since then Celtic have won 7 of 9. The ludicrousness is summed up by the fact Brendan Rodgers has managed Celtic for 5 years over 2 spells and never lost a Scottish Cup game:faf: When even the cups with the unpredictability of knockout football become something of a closed shop then you have issues.

It's not an exclusively Scottish problem though. In the FA Cup since 2000 it has been dominated by Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool Man City and Man Utd winning 22 of the 25 finals. If you look at the 25 years between 1975 and 2000 you see West Ham, Southampton, Ipswich, Spurs, Everton, Coventry and Wimbledon winning it, a couple of them multiple times. The League Cup was a bit different in England as the top teams paid so little attention to it for years, particularly in the early rounds, but the last decade has still seen only Newcastle win it outside the traditional 'top 6'. Again if you look through the 80s and 90s you see teams like Norwich, Oxford, Luton, Sheffield Wednesday and Leicester win it.

Money has irreversibly changed football. There were always bigger clubs who had more money to throw about and thus were more successful but the TV deals, the guaranteed number of games in the Champions League, the huge sponsorship deals, the new fan markets and so on means what was once a gap has become a chasm. The gap previously could be bridged on occasion. Hearts and Hibs did it in the 50s, Dundee and Killie in the 60s, Aberdeen and Dundee United in the 80s. In England Derby, Leed and Forest did it in the 70s and Aston Villa and Everton in the 80s since then you have had Blackburn and Leicester in a 30+ year period (and the former spent serious money to achieve what they did). Is it a coincidence that the early 90s and the advent of Sky fottball and the CL saw these real closed shops emerge? I'm not much of one for coincidences.

:agree: Its far from unique to Scotland. PSG have no real history, ive been on the planet longer than them, but have won 11 of the last 13 titles and 4 in a row, this season they are still unbeaten with a ridiculous 25 point lead when they inevitably win their game in hand. To your point, theyve won 3 of the last 5 cups as well. The money that the petrostates have pumped into the top teams has further swung the balance.

[Eyrie]

I've yet to see a persuasive argument that the arse cheeks pissing off to wherever would help the rest of us left in the Scottish leagues.

I don't think it would be have much practical effect.

We'd get a reduced TV deal, but the drop in income will be compensated for by not having to pay out the big money to the Ugly Sisters for finishing first and second every year. The prize money for the league winner would be the equivalent of the money for finishing third at present so there would be no loss for anyone.

The impact on the European places would also be very limited. At present we have group football and probably have an extra place thanks to the Ugly Sisters efforts but that only leaves three places for the other clubs who typically get eliminated during qualifying anyway. Without them the league winner could still have a route to group stage football through UEFA's path for domestic champions.

PS: "Wherever" isn't sending them far enough away for my liking.

[Up-the-slope]

I'm in Charge of Scottish Football - No votes by clubs and they have to do as I say.

Starting Season 2027/28 to give time to adjust contracts etc the following handicap system will apply.

Club with lowest combined season salary / transfer fee * total start season on 0 points. #

For every £1,000,000 above this total other clubs will start with -1 points


*(transfer of 5 million on 2 year contract = 2.5 million added to year total etc)


# (sale of homegrown talent = annual reduction of total divided by length of contract by buying club i.e. sold for 6 million on 3 year deal 2 million reduction)



this season would have had St Mirren @ £4million spend on 0 points and Celtic on £32million starting on -28 points (Hibs likely -5 points) this giving an indication of the disparities

[Up-the-slope]

for comparison. Even in the bonkers EPL the salary difference between top and bottom is 'only' *4.5 in SPL its *8

[scm70nyd1973]

Money is IMHO ruining football - not just what the clubs get but what we have to pay - in Scotland (until 1980) home gate receipts were shared. I just wish that we could reverse the current trend and go one further by placing all gate receipts into one pot for sharing and that wages/transfer fees were capped .

I am of course living in cloud cuckoo land thinking that any clubs would buy into it.

I am dreaming but having said that I was dreaming about a SC win since circa 1962 and it happened 🙏

[Hibbyradge]

If Rantic left the SPFL, I don't think we'd even get a TV deal.

Ok, maybe BBC Alba might pick up the occasional Falkirk v Dundee game and BBC Scotland might pay for the Edinburgh derby, but the clubs would receive a pittance compared to the pittance they already "enjoy".

Very very few people outside Scotland are interested in our football other than than Rantic and we certainly don't have any sort of global appeal.

Despite English football receiving hundreds of millions in TV cash, the lower leagues are given tiny amounts.

Bradford City in League 2 have a higher average attendance than Hibs yet their income is around half of ours.

My mate supports them so I've been to games and I occasionally watch them on TV. It's not pretty.

[Fifeshirehibs]

Four times a season kills the competitiveness. A chairman in the lower leagues told me even down there they hate it when a moneyed version of tic or the rangers appears in a league. Three points for a win compounds the 4 times as well. Proper refereeing would help competitiveness, they can struggle in games where they don't get all the 50/50 or even 40/60s. COLLUM HAS BEEN AN UTTER DISASTER IN THIS RESPECT AND NEEDS TO GO.THE ' SACKING' OF MUIR FROM VAR IS A HORRENDOUS EXAMPLE OF COLLUMS INCOMPETENCE AND COMPLETE UNSUITABILITY TO THE ROLE.

[H18S NX]

As the title says, what's the point? Celtic now one game away from a another treble.
They have won 13 of the last 14 league seasons.
A win against Aberdeen would mean they've won 7 of the last 9 scottish cups.
Same again for league cup winning 7 of the last 9.

With the massive gulf in squad quality and financial resources it doesn't look like these stats will improve any time soon....I actually thought the very same after watching the game yesterday.

[TrinityHFC]

If Rantic left the SPFL, I don't think we'd even get a TV deal.

Ok, maybe BBC Alba might pick up the occasional Falkirk v Dundee game and BBC Scotland might pay for the Edinburgh derby, but the clubs would receive a pittance compared to the pittance they already "enjoy".

Very very few people outside Scotland are interested in our football other than than Rantic and we certainly don't have any sort of global appeal.

Despite English football receiving hundreds of millions in TV cash, the lower leagues are given tiny amounts.

Bradford City in League 2 have a higher average attendance than Hibs yet their income is around half of ours.

My mate supports them so I've been to games and I occasionally watch them on TV. It's not pretty.

What is the effect of that though?

So what? We lose a small amount of TV money and we have the opportunity to have more interest and attendances due to being in a more competitive league.

As has also been said before we are a bit different to some of the leagues elsewhere in that we do have a number of fairly big and well attended teams. There would be added interest in games like Hibs v Hearts or Hibs v Aberdeen with league titles at stake.

[ancient hibee]

What is the effect of that though?

So what? We lose a small amount of TV money and we have the opportunity to have more interest and attendances due to being in a more competitive league.

As has also been said before we are a bit different to some of the leagues elsewhere in that we do have a number of fairly big and well attended teams. There would be added interest in games like Hibs v Hearts or Hibs v Aberdeen with league titles at stake.
We'd also lose advertising and sponsors who only do it to get their products on TV.Within a couple of years we would have many part time teams because clubs wouldn't be able to pay full time players.

[marinello59]

What is the effect of that though?

So what? We lose a small amount of TV money and we have the opportunity to have more interest and attendances due to being in a more competitive league.

As has also been said before we are a bit different to some of the leagues elsewhere in that we do have a number of fairly big and well attended teams. There would be added interest in games like Hibs v Hearts or Hibs v Aberdeen with league titles at stake.

What value would winning the title have? You can't be Scottish Champions when the two biggest teams are playing elsewhere. It would be no better than winning the Championship.

[marinello59]

We'd also lose advertising and sponsors who only do it to get their products on TV.Within a couple of years we would have many part time teams because clubs wouldn't be able to pay full time players.

:agree:
The Old Firm would take a lot of money Scottish businesses spend on sponsorship with them.

[TrinityHFC]

We'd also lose advertising and sponsors who only do it to get their products on TV.Within a couple of years we would have many part time teams because clubs wouldn't be able to pay full time players.

I think that’s a bit over dramatic.

We would have TV games. We’d also have big crowds.

[SickBoy32]

We'd also lose advertising and sponsors who only do it to get their products on TV.Within a couple of years we would have many part time teams because clubs wouldn't be able to pay full time players.

Sounds awfy similar to the (unfounded) scaremongering that the Better Together campaign employed.

Agree wholeheartedly with the OP.

Change is needed. Or is facilitating the OF all that we can aspire to? Feeding off their scraps and being grateful for it?

[Pretty Boy]

I don't think we would struggle for a TV deal without the OF. The League of Ireland recently signed a 4 year deal with Virgin and I'm sure even the people who run the game here could achieve similar. It's not worth a huge amount but it's consistent income and the current TV deal is hardly worth a kings ransom to a club like Hibs anyway.

I'm always conflicted about them going. Aye winning the league without them wouldn't be the same achievement but then the alternative is never, ever winning the league and increasingly struggling to get near a cup as well. To go back to the LOI Shamrock Rovers have proven in the Conference League that being a smaller league doesn't mean you have to be a backwater. Frankly Hearts and Aberdeen should be embarrassed at how they performed compared to them and Hibs moreso because we never even got close to qualifying through the league. Is more clubs going part time so terrible? I always see it argued we have too many pro clubs anyway so cutting that to those who can genuinely justify being full time organically might be no bad thing.

It's all irrelevant anyway because no one would take them. Short of some resurrected European League (always described as 'inevitable' but seemingly as far away as ever) they have nowhere to go.

[DH1875]

What is the effect of that though?

So what? We lose a small amount of TV money and we have the opportunity to have more interest and attendances due to being in a more competitive league.

As has also been said before we are a bit different to some of the leagues elsewhere in that we do have a number of fairly big and well attended teams. There would be added interest in games like Hibs v Hearts or Hibs v Aberdeen with league titles at stake.

Your only looking at it from a Hibs point of view though. Rangers and celtic leaving MIGHT benefit us, hearts, Aberdeen. But does nothing for 90% of the other teams. Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen just replace celtic and rangers as the dominant force. You might get a descent Dundee Utd and I'll give you another team but NO ONE else is winning the league. Airdrie, Hamilton, Partick Thistle, Morton, Raith, Dumbarton, QOS, Arbroath, Ross County, St Johnstone and all the rest will all still be the same except there's now no rangers or celtic.
Rangers and celtic leave. We win the league, qualifying for Europe. We invest and squad becomes stronger so we go on to win the league again and qualify for Europe. We win the the again and so on and so on. We follow celtics business plan, model cause like it or lump it, it's where we want to be. Great for us. Does nothing for Scottish football.

[SickBoy32]

Your only looking at it from a Hibs point of view though. Rangers and celtic leaving MIGHT benefit us, hearts, Aberdeen. But does nothing for 90% of the other teams. Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen just replace celtic and rangers as the dominant force. You might get a descent Dundee Utd and I'll give you another team but NO ONE else is winning the league. Airdrie, Hamilton, Partick Thistle, Morton, Raith, Dumbarton, QOS, Arbroath, Ross County, St Johnstone and all the rest will all still be the same except there's now no rangers or celtic.
Rangers and celtic leave. We win the league, qualifying for Europe. We invest and squad becomes stronger so we go on to win the league again and qualify for Europe. We win the the again and so on and so on. We follow celtics business plan, model cause like it or lump it, it's where we want to be. Great for us. Does nothing for Scottish football.

Don’t really understand this argument.

Within just the last 15 years, off the top of my head I can think of St Johnstone, Kilmarnock and Motherwell finishing behind the OF. There will be even more examples of when they’ve finished above Hibs / Hearts / Aberdeen.

The gap between us and the rest is far smaller than the gap from the OF to the rest. Won’t be too long before there’s crap Hibs and Aberdeen teams again, Hearts are obviously already a ***** team. We’d see nowhere near the dominance that the last 40/50 years has given us.

[marinello59]

Sounds awfy similar to the (unfounded) scaremongering that the Better Together campaign employed.

Agree wholeheartedly with the OP.

Change is needed. Or is facilitating the OF all that we can aspire to? Feeding off their scraps and being grateful for it?

We do need change. But we do that whilst keeping all Scottish teams playing in our league. Surely we have to show some genuine ambition and try to compete with the Old Firm rather than throwing in the towel and saying the rest of us will just play our own wee game without the big boys.

[The_Exile]

It is a bit embarrasing that it's been so long since winners outside those two clubs, but it's a similar story all over Europe. Top 5 leagues all have the same winners often. Serie A have had 3 different winners over the past few years but it wasn't that long ago that Juve went on a 9 or 10 in a row run in the 2010's. Bayern are dominant in Germany although Leverkusen snatched it last year. Real Madrid and Barca in Spain, Man City and Liverpool down south have shared the last 8 titles, you have to go back 25 years to find a winner in Porugal outside of Benfica, Sporting or Porto. PSG have won 10 of the last 13 ligue 1's. I'm sure there will be fans of clubs in these leagues that are having similar conversations.

It's up to our clubs to build teams that are capable of consistently getting results like we're doing just now. If we hadn't have had that horrendous start we'd be right up there at least in with a shout of 2nd and a bit more money, you compound that consistency over a good 5 - 10 years then you start getting much better players in and you never know. Leicester done it not long ago in probably the most difficult league in world football for smaller teams to get success. It is possible.

[HarpOnHibee]

We do need change. But we do that whilst keeping all Scottish teams playing in our league. Surely we have to show some genuine ambition and try to compete with the Old Firm rather than throwing in the towel and saying the rest of us will just play our own wee game without the big boys.

It's not an issue of ambition though. Sadly, we live in a country where it matters more to follow a club based on sectarian/political lines than it does based on where a person is from. As long as hoards of buses are going towards Parkhead or Ibrox each week from Inverness and Dumfries, nothing is going to change. These clubs will forever hold a significant advantage over the rest of us. The only real chance any club has of competing with them is if some mad man comes in and starts throwing his dodgy cash around and we seen how well that ended with our neighbours.

[SickBoy32]

We do need change. But we do that whilst keeping all Scottish teams playing in our league. Surely we have to show some genuine ambition and try to compete with the Old Firm rather than throwing in the towel and saying the rest of us will just play our own wee game without the big boys.

Don’t disagree. Which is why I’d be expanding the league to 18 / 20 sides, and simply playing home and away.

It’s the only way anyone will ever get close to challenging them. But as was seen on here recently, folk don’t want to lower income / standard of player across the league / ‘meaningless games’ etc etc.

So we’ll just need to content ourselves with the increasingly monopolised status quo.

[.Sean.]

I've been of the opinion that this would be for the best for a while now. Yes the league may look like Welsh league or league of Ireland but at least year on year it would be extremely competitive.
Suppose the counter argument to that would be that ourselves, hearts, Aberdeen could then gain investment and become the new old firm dominating the game.
On what planet would our league look like the pishy Welsh one or either the Irish leagues? 😂😂😂

I would love Celtic and Rangers to both **** off and leave the rest of us to it. A competitive Scottish league without them wouod be magic

[Eyrie]

Don’t disagree. Which is why I’d be expanding the league to 18 / 20 sides, and simply playing home and away.

It’s the only way anyone will ever get close to challenging them. But as was seen on here recently, folk don’t want to lower income / standard of player across the league / ‘meaningless games’ etc etc.

So we’ll just need to content ourselves with the increasingly monopolised status quo.

That wouldn't have the equalising effect you want because Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen are far more likely to drop points to the bottom half teams like St Johnstone or Livingston than Celtc and the Huns.

[B.H.F.C]

We do need change. But we do that whilst keeping all Scottish teams playing in our league. Surely we have to show some genuine ambition and try to compete with the Old Firm rather than throwing in the towel and saying the rest of us will just play our own wee game without the big boys.

This is where I am. Even in the current set up we should be doing consistently better rather than just having the odd good season. I’d really like to see us sustain some league form over a period of a few years, it rarely happens. Get to a point where we are really getting the maximum out of ourselves. Hopefully a strong finish to this season and the European football can be the start of that.

[TrinityHFC]

That wouldn't have the equalising effect you want because Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen are far more likely to drop points to the bottom half teams like St Johnstone or Livingston than Celtc and the Huns.

Any given year we could have the likes of us Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd either winners or bottom.

Dundee Utd have been promoted and could be third. A couple of results the wrong way we could have been bottom.

If a Dunfermline or Falkirk got it together they could win the league.

Even if what I’m saying is total pish it’s much more probable than anyone doing anything now.

[Eyrie]

Any given year we could have the likes of us Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd either winners or bottom.

Dundee Utd have been promoted and could be third. A couple of results the wrong way we could have been bottom.

If a Dunfermline or Falkirk got it together they could win the league.

Even if what I’m saying is total pish it’s much more probable than anyone doing anything now.

That's if we get rid of the Ugly Sisters. However my post was replying to the suggestion of a 18-20 team league with them included.

[SickBoy32]

That wouldn't have the equalising effect you want because Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen are far more likely to drop points to the bottom half teams like St Johnstone or Livingston than Celtc and the Huns.

Most of the time, aye.

However there would be occasions IMO, like a McInnes Aberdeen, or the current Hibs side - where I believe the title race could be a close run thing, as the consistency vs the lesser sides is there.

[Donegal Hibby]

We do need change. But we do that whilst keeping all Scottish teams playing in our league. Surely we have to show some genuine ambition and try to compete with the Old Firm rather than throwing in the towel and saying the rest of us will just play our own wee game without the big boys.

I just can’t see anyway that we can compete with the OF though. Read that Celtic’s European games netted them £24mill , add that in with the £77mill they have already in the bank and no one stands a chance .

If they left there’s no doubt the league would be more competitive but the financial losses i think would leave Scottish football in a far worse position then it is right now .

I don’t honestly know if there’s any solution to this at all .

[lugz]

On what planet would our league look like the pishy Welsh one or either the Irish leagues? 😂😂😂

I would love Celtic and Rangers to both **** off and leave the rest of us to it. A competitive Scottish league without them wouod be magic

What i meant was you take celtic and Rangers out the league and there would be next to no interest in the league outside of Scotland. TV companies wouldn't be rushing to air the league.

[TrinityHFC]

What i meant was you take celtic and Rangers out the league and there would be next to no interest in the league outside of Scotland. TV companies wouldn't be rushing to air the league.

Again, so what?

What benefit are we all getting just now from the interest?

I think a Hibs v Hearts or Aberdeen for a league title in front of 20k supporters would be just as appealing as much of what we get on TV.

[lugz]

Again, so what?

What benefit are we all getting just now from the interest?

I think a Hibs v Hearts or Aberdeen for a league title in front of 20k supporters would be just as appealing as much of what we get on TV.

I completely agree. I was just responding to why I think scottish football would because similar to the leagues mentioned.

[ancient hibee]

Again, so what?

What benefit are we all getting just now from the interest?

I think a Hibs v Hearts or Aberdeen for a league title in front of 20k supporters would be just as appealing as much of what we get on TV.

You don’t seem to realise that the reason we get so much sponsorship and advertising is because we are on TV.It’s cheaper for a company to buy a shirt sponsorship than a TV advertising slot.That’s why TV is so important not what the TV companies pay to televise.

[Pretty Boy]

This is where I am. Even in the current set up we should be doing consistently better rather than just having the odd good season. I’d really like to see us sustain some league form over a period of a few years, it rarely happens. Get to a point where we are really getting the maximum out of ourselves. Hopefully a strong finish to this season and the European football can be the start of that.

I think that's a fundamental part of the issue though.

Ourselves, Hearts and Aberdeen just don't have the budget to compete on 2 fronts for a lengthy part of the season. Group stage football is great but with the size of squads we carry and the schedule demanded by those games qualifying one year seriously dents your chances of doing so again. To really reap the benefits you probably need to get those group stages 2, 3 or 4 years in a row to notice a transformative difference in your financial position. That was hard anyway, after this season it becomes significantly harder again.

I don't think it's lack of effort or ambition on the part of the next 3 biggest clubs. It's lack of adequate resources and the fact it's really, really difficult to build any sustainable (relative) success with those resources. How many times have we read Hibs fans all but discount European games because 'it's the league that matters'? We just aren't in a position to prioritise both and that's what would be required to build any prolonged advancement. Aberdeen probably came closest to achieving it under McInnes but didn't have the European rewards on offer since.

[danhibees1875]

It is a bit embarrasing that it's been so long since winners outside those two clubs, but it's a similar story all over Europe. Top 5 leagues all have the same winners often. Serie A have had 3 different winners over the past few years but it wasn't that long ago that Juve went on a 9 or 10 in a row run in the 2010's. Bayern are dominant in Germany although Leverkusen snatched it last year. Real Madrid and Barca in Spain, Man City and Liverpool down south have shared the last 8 titles, you have to go back 25 years to find a winner in Porugal outside of Benfica, Sporting or Porto. PSG have won 10 of the last 13 ligue 1's. I'm sure there will be fans of clubs in these leagues that are having similar conversations.

It's up to our clubs to build teams that are capable of consistently getting results like we're doing just now. If we hadn't have had that horrendous start we'd be right up there at least in with a shout of 2nd and a bit more money, you compound that consistency over a good 5 - 10 years then you start getting much better players in and you never know. Leicester done it not long ago in probably the most difficult league in world football for smaller teams to get success. It is possible.

:agree:

There's a dominance in most leagues from what I can see, ours is maybe slightly more pronounced.

I'm included to believe that whilst there would be a scaling down of revenues it would be in a way that maintained/enhanced competitiveness in the league and the lack of champions league money would curtail a breakaway "new firm" from being overly dominant. Teams would have a larger slice of a smaller pie. OF aside, we still have one of the best supported leagues in the world per capita. Hibs v Dundee attracted 20k, that's without a title race.

Dominance aside, removing the unsavoury element of the Rantic support would provide an opportunity to make the match day a better experience I think. The nuance behind that is open for debate.

Just avoid the worst of both worlds where they 2 leave, along with a chunk of revenue, and their B-teams end up worming in and taking their sizeable chunks of the smaller pie.

[joe breezy]

Losing the OF would certainly make the league / cups more competitive but I think the loss of revenue from gates , sky , sponsorship etc would see the quality of the league deteriorate , it probably would also have an effect when it came to trying to sign players as well .

Co-efficient for Europe would collapse as well


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[Steve20]

Second half of this season has been excellent for us. However the bigger picture is that there's even less chance for clubs to win a trophy and it's pretty much a guarantee that Celtic will always win at least two trophies and most likely all three.

They have more money than the entire rest of the league put together and then some. They'll buy leagues and trebles for as long as they want.

I pray for the day them and Rangers get lost from our Football. Obviously Rangers are going to win as much as the rest of us, but a breakaway league would want both of those two. So fingers crossed

[Phil MaGlass]

Id have the OF voted out or have the ten other teams resign from the league, start a breakaway 14/16 team league,dont care about the OF. The money we get from being third or lower is a pittance anyway, theres no loss. Teams would still get into Europe, thats why they have the conference.
Maybe we should have a poll if we want to dump the OF, but make the poll available to other clubs.
Steve I also pray for the day they FO.

[danhibees1875]

Co-efficient for Europe would collapse as well


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I wonder how badly it would actually impact us though. Much like the revenue side - whilst there would be a drop, the bulk of it is already consumed by the OF anyway.

Sounds like even with the OF, the best a non-OF team can achieve from next season will be to enter the europa league third qualifying round.

Also entering those games would be the losers from CL second qualifying round from the champions path. That includes league winners from Hungary, Cyprus, Poland, Croatia, Ukraine, Israel, Denmark. Is that where an OF-free SPFL would sit?... I think probably. So we'd be in the position of having a Champions league game, win = great, lose = same position as we currently have.

If we are being pessimistic and the league would be more akin to a Malta, Gibraltar type of league then the league winners (equivalent of 3rd in today's money) would be in Champions League first qualifying round, and would then go to Conference second round if they lose. Unlikely IMO, we'd be as lowly ranked as this, or that the qualifying team would lose that game... but it's still 2 European qualifiers, one in the Champions Legaue - that, as a worst case scenario, is arguably better than anything Hibs have enjoyed in Europe in my lifetime. :dunno:

[joe breezy]

I wonder how badly it would actually impact us though. Much like the revenue side - whilst there would be a drop, the bulk of it is already consumed by the OF anyway.

Sounds like even with the OF, the best a non-OF team can achieve from next season will be to enter the europa league third qualifying round.

Also entering those games would be the losers from CL second qualifying round from the champions path. That includes league winners from Hungary, Cyprus, Poland, Croatia, Ukraine, Israel, Denmark. Is that where an OF-free SPFL would sit?... I think probably. So we'd be in the position of having a Champions league game, win = great, lose = same position as we currently have.

If we are being pessimistic and the league would be more akin to a Malta, Gibraltar type of league then the league winners (equivalent of 3rd in today's money) would be in Champions League first qualifying round, and would then go to Conference second round if they lose. Unlikely IMO, we'd be as lowly ranked as this, or that the qualifying team would lose that game... but it's still 2 European qualifiers, one in the Champions Legaue - that, as a worst case scenario, is arguably better than anything Hibs have enjoyed in Europe in my lifetime. :dunno:

1. If we had played just okay first half of this season we would be competing for a champions league place (unusual granted)

2. Old Firm are going nowhere for the time being - best chance they could have would be a new European league and they would not be first in the queue and it was massively rejected by English club fans, and English clubs are the main draw globally
England does not want them


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[Centre Hawf]

As a fan I'd happily watch Hibs in a public park with my pals against Joppa, so the prospect of the Scottish game losing a bunch of money from it because they two ****ed off doesn't bother me really, if it means we're sponsored by The Dolphin Chippy vs Utilita's or anyone national level so be it. I understand things like the coeffiency would drop, but I've never seen Hibs in a Group Stage before and if we don't do it this year it's actually just time to accept it's unlikely I ever will (and that's with the Old Firm), so again I find it hard to care too much about that.

Do I enjoy when we beat them both? Absolutely. Of course, this year has been incredible and the wins against both of them has made it all the more better. But while Rangers can always somehow pull a rabbit out the hat and stop Celtic at some point it's fairly depressing that we could genuinely get into a situation where Celtic not just get 10 in a row but sail beyond that figure. You're *almost* wanting Rangers to get bought out to provide some level of actual competition to watch as a neutral as I certainly cannot envisage any situation where any of the rest of us put together some sort of golden generation type team made out of academy kids and lower league gems filled with nothing but a hope and dream and pull off the impossible. To think that is what's going to ever happen now is just fairy tale stuff.

I find it all a bit tiring/exhausting watching Celtic play anyone that isn't Hibs. It's predominantly Harlem Globetrotter stuff now and a waste of everyone's time that doesn't have a dog in the fight. I'd sooner rather watch a 3rd place decider against two of the other teams, or a relegation 6 pointer, top 6 decider etc than Celtic travelling to Ross County to pump them 6-0 and surge onto their one of many many silverwares they'll scoop up over the next decade. But that's just me.

[Hibbyradge]

Every weekend, well over half of the people attending a Premiership football match are watching either Celtic or The Rangers.

In every likelihood, they outnumber everyone else in all 4 leagues

If those 2 clubs went to play in England, those fans would go with them.

We'd end up with only around 50000 people attending matches in the whole country.

The TV and sponsorship money would just fall out of the game and we'd end up wishing we could afford players like Jair, Mueller and Mckirdy. But we couldn't.

Yes, the chances of winning the league would increase, but the quality and entertainment would go through the floor.

Rather than attendances increasing, they would drop. Celtic and The Rangers would go from strength to strength and they would become even more attractive to glory hunters and the likes.

The upside is we might win the league now and again but what a pyrrhic victory that would be.

All in my opinion of course.

[DH1875]

Id have the OF voted out or have the ten other teams resign from the league, start a breakaway 14/16 team league,dont care about the OF. The money we get from being third or lower is a pittance anyway, theres no loss. Teams would still get into Europe, thats why they have the conference.
Maybe we should have a poll if we want to dump the OF, but make the poll available to other clubs.
Steve I also pray for the day they FO.

Total fantasy. At least half the other 10 wouldn't leave. Let's play ball though and say they do, what happens to the other 30 teams in the leagues below. What's that, we are asking 6 of them to join us in our super new league. They'd tell us to bolt cause guess what, they are joining rangers and celtic in the OF premier league. Falkirk, Dunfermline, Partick Thistle, Raith, Livingston, Ayr, Airdrie. All got as much chance of winning the new OF league as they do our super break away league. Aye but those game aren't gonna be appealing, wait a minute. They'll be appealing in our super new break away league if they joined us. Which league do you think would get the TV deal and the sponsorship deals.. The OF league or the breakaway league? Same goes for all the media coverage and attention. More importantly, which league do you think would get the European places? Our new breakaway league or the OF league. Your kidding yourself on if you think it would be ours.

[erin go bragh]

We are a point above Celtic in the last 20 games form table, tske that form into next season and we could be the team that breaks their dominance.

[Centre Hawf]

We are a point above Celtic in the last 20 games form table, tske that form into next season and we could be the team that breaks their dominance.

No chance.

[BoomtownHibees]

We are a point above Celtic in the last 20 games form table, tske that form into next season and we could be the team that breaks their dominance.

We’ve been on this tremendous run and we are still 28 points behind them

[Donegal Hibby]

I noticed the LoI mentioned on the subject . I very rarely , if ever watch the LoI . I can’t recall ever watching a game in the Welsh league and wonder how many on here actually do? I’d imagine there’s not many as there isn’t any appeal/ interest in it ! .

Take out the OF and the majority of people from England and other countries that watch Scottish football wouldn’t have the same interest in it either .

Sad as it is but they are the main attraction and that’s easy to see when you see the games Sky show over the course of the season too .

[TrinityHFC]

I noticed the LoI mentioned on the subject . I very rarely , if ever watch the LoI . I can’t recall ever watching a game in the Welsh league and wonder how many on here actually do? I’d imagine there’s not many as there isn’t any appeal/ interest in it ! .

Take out the OF and the majority of people from England and other countries that watch Scottish football wouldn’t have the same interest in it either .

Sad as it is but they are the main attraction and that’s easy to see when you see the games Sky show over the course of the season too .

Those leagues are completely different though with different sized clubs.

Edit: A quick search shows the leaders of the Welsh league play in a 3,000 capacity stadium and the leaders in the LOI have a 3,500 capacity. It isn't a comparison.

Again though, why are we worrying too much about appeal to others? Are we getting a huge benefit from all that interest now?

We have the potential to a have a hugely competitive and very well attended league - without two teams that for various reasons that aren't really replicated anywhere else are complete anomalies.

Edit: The leaders of the Welsh league play in 3,000 capacity stadium. The LOI leaders in a 3,500 capacity. Neither of those leagues are valid comparisons.

[GreenCastle]

Old Firm will never go to England.

England don’t need the old firm either.

I would love a league without the old firm but will never happen.

Complete nonsense topic talking about them ever moving. The European super league won’t happen either as shown last time with all the fan resistance.

I don’t think anyone outside Rangers or Celtic will ever win the league again - I actually think Celtic will continue to dominate for years to come.

Hibs / Aberdeen etc will continue to play well to fight for 3rd but long term the aim has to be continuous Europe participation plus doing well domestically which as explained isn’t easy.

[Centre Hawf]

Old Firm will never go to England.

England don’t need the old firm either.

Complete nonsense topic talking about them ever moving. The European super league won’t happen either as shown last time with all the fan resistance.

I don’t think anyone outside Rangers or Celtic will ever win the league again - I actually think Celtic will continue to dominate for years to come.

Hibs / Aberdeen etc will continue to play well to fight for 3rd but long term the aim has to be continuous Europe participation plus doing well domestically which as explained isn’t easy.

As much as I'd love it, I agree. England would never allow them in to the point of just letting them step in above Championship clubs one year, and they'd both never take anything but a guaranteed Premier League spot.

I also think for Celtic's board they've probably given up on that ever happening and are happy to get a lovely little money spinning existence of winning every trophy possible, will always be in this new Champions League format playing 8 games a season, able to flip players to top 5 leagues for 2 or 3 times the money they spent on them. If they were to bugger off to the Premier League it wouldn't be unrealistic to say they might not get European Football, let alone Champions League for a decade or two. If clubs like United/Chelsea/Spurs can make a pigs ear of it all time after time then both OF would be in for a rude awakening themselves.

[Hibbyradge]

We have the potential to a have a hugely competitive and very well attended league - without two teams that for various reasons that aren't really replicated anywhere else are complete anomalies.



Are you sure?

We just had one of the most important weekends in our league, Europe places at stake, top 6 and relegation all being contested, and only 41000 people attended games not involving The Rangers or Celtic.

Around 15000 attended Championship games that same weekend.

That's a total of 56000 between 8 games, an average of 7000 per game.

Meanwhile, Celtic had 59000 on their own.

Over the season, and even with 3 home games against Rantic, half the Premiership clubs have average attendances of 7000 or less. Ross County are just above 4000.

https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/scottish-premiership/attendances

[ancient hibee]

Id have the OF voted out or have the ten other teams resign from the league, start a breakaway 14/16 team league,dont care about the OF. The money we get from being third or lower is a pittance anyway, theres no loss. Teams would still get into Europe, thats why they have the conference.
Maybe we should have a poll if we want to dump the OF, but make the poll available to other clubs.
Steve I also pray for the day they FO.
Total fantasy. A good description of the end of professional football in Scotland.You really think a breakaway league would be acceptable to UEFA

[Donegal Hibby]

Those leagues are completely different though with different sized clubs.

Edit: A quick search shows the leaders of the Welsh league play in a 3,000 capacity stadium and the leaders in the LOI have a 3,500 capacity. It isn't a comparison.

Again though, why are we worrying too much about appeal to others? Are we getting a huge benefit from all that interest now?

We have the potential to a have a hugely competitive and very well attended league - without two teams that for various reasons that aren't really replicated anywhere else are complete anomalies.

Edit: The leaders of the Welsh league play in 3,000 capacity stadium. The LOI leaders in a 3,500 capacity. Neither of those leagues are valid comparisons.

They are on a smaller scale though the LoI last season was as competitive as it’s been in many a year with 3 or 4 teams fighting for the title , European places up for grabs but I still didn’t watch it as in truth I had absolutely no interest in it whatsoever..

Take the OF out of our league and for the majority of viewers the interest is gone too . Whatever benefits we are getting now from Sky ,sponsorship etc ..

as well as the revenue from gates they bring also for smaller clubs that are willing to give them 3 stands in helping them financially I do think we’d end up much worse off without them in the long run financially and the league would end up on a downward trajectory …

None of the rest of us can compete the way they do in Europe either so we’d probably in time suffer on that too .

English League 1 ? We’d be lucky if our league didn’t end up like League 2 or worse without the OF sadly IMO .

[danhibees1875]

Are you sure?

We just had one of the most important weekends in our league, Europe places at stake, top 6 and relegation all being contested, and only 41000 people attended games not involving The Rangers or Celtic.

Around 15000 attended Championship games that same weekend.

That's a total of 56000 between 8 games, an average of 7000 per game.

Meanwhile, Celtic had 59000 on their own.

Over the season, and even with 3 home games against Rantic, half the Premiership clubs have average attendances of 7000 or less. Ross County are just above 4000.

https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/scottish-premiership/attendances

The 41k number excludes Aberdeen fans (and to a lesser extent Killie) under your methodology. An impact, if not a material one.

Per capita, excluding the OF, we'd still be one of the best supported leagues in the world (7th by my calculations).

[Hibbyradge]

The 41k number excludes Aberdeen fans (and to a lesser extent Killie) under your methodology. An impact, if not a material one.



I realise that.

It would add another game to the calculation. If it was Killie v Aberdeen, it would most likely lower the average. (They had less than 7000 when they played Aberdeen on Boxing Day).




Per capita, excluding the OF, we'd still be one of the best supported leagues in the world (7th by my calculations).

I'm not sure how you calculated that, but while it's a nice statistic, it's meaningless financially. Our per capita figure is currently about 3 times that of England. Our wealth is about a million times less (roughly 😁).

[Centre Hawf]

They are on a smaller scale though the LoI last season was as competitive as it’s been in many a year with 3 or 4 teams fighting for the title , European places up for grabs but I still didn’t watch it as in truth I had absolutely no interest in it whatsoever..

Take the OF out of our league and for the majority of viewers the interest is gone too . Whatever benefits we are getting now from Sky ,sponsorship etc ..

as well as the revenue from gates they bring also for smaller clubs that are willing to give them 3 stands in helping them financially I do think we’d end up much worse off without them in the long run financially and the league would end up on a downward trajectory …

None of the rest of us can compete the way they do in Europe either so we’d probably in time suffer on that too .

English League 1 ? We’d be lucky if our league didn’t end up like League 2 or worse without the OF sadly IMO .

Out of curiosity, do you happen to have a LOI team or is it just something that has never clicked for you enough to bother with? I think that's the big difference I see with the LOI analogy is that many don't take up the league because they've opted to follow your Celtic (in your case Hibs) and Liverpool or Man United etc instead.

I'm not sure anyones core fan bases will suffer as a result of Celtic/Rangers leaving. We're already in an era where young kids are now more exposed to the new Mbappes quickly and playing in PSG tracksuits or Al Nassr Ronaldo tops for example.

[danhibees1875]

I realise that.

It would add another game to the calculation. If it was Killie v Aberdeen, it would most likely lower the average. (They had less than 7000 when they played Aberdeen on Boxing Day).



I'm not sure how you calculated that, but while it's a nice statistic, it's meaningless financially. Our per capita figure is currently about 3 times that of England. Our wealth is about a million times less (roughly 😁).

What it does/could translate to in terms of finances in anyone's guess - I would argue it would be a "well attended league" though, in theory.

Unless it totally capitulated on itself with the lack of Old Firm. Then, maybe not. :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

What it does/could translate to in terms of finances in anyone's guess - I would argue it would be a "well attended league" though, in theory.

Unless it totally capitulated on itself with the lack of Old Firm. Then, maybe not. :greengrin

In a way, if we exclude all the people the old firm take with them, it brings the considered population down to about 2.5 million so the per capita figure would be even higher.

Of course, comparing our league against leagues in countries with a similar 2.5m population, doesn't make good reading!

https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/population-by-country/

[GreenCastle]

We are a point above Celtic in the last 20 games form table, tske that form into next season and we could be the team that breaks their dominance.

No - Yan Dhanda

[erin go bragh]

We’ve been on this tremendous run and we are still 28 points behind them

We were 30 odd points behind them, bottom of the league before we went on our run.
Had we started the season how we started our run, we would be giving them a challenge.

[danhibees1875]

In a way, if we exclude all the people the old firm take with them, it brings the considered population down to about 2.5 million so the per capita figure would be even higher.

Of course, comparing our league against leagues in countries with a similar 2.5m population, doesn't make good reading!

https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/population-by-country/

Good point! :greengrin

[Donegal Hibby]

Out of curiosity, do you happen to have a LOI team or is it just something that has never clicked for you enough to bother with? I think that's the big difference I see with the LOI analogy is that many don't take up the league because they've opted to follow your Celtic (in your case Hibs) and Liverpool or Man United etc instead.

I'm not sure anyones core fan bases will suffer as a result of Celtic/Rangers leaving. We're already in an era where young kids are now more exposed to the new Mbappes quickly and playing in PSG tracksuits or Al Nassr Ronaldo tops for example.

Finn Harps would be my LoI team who are currently in the 1st division and a part from watching them an odd time I generally don’t bother with any other games , cup finals etc basically due to the standard being poor ..

Most folk here support Celtic or one of the top English teams and there is a fair amount of them that are nothing more than glory hunters who probably don’t have any interest in the LoI at all .

I’m not so sure about anyone’s core fan base not suffering from the OF leaving as we have seen clubs trying to financially gain from them by giving them 3 stands , even Dundee Utd have supposedly upped the prices of a ticket to £42 quid for there game against Celtic .

I think there’s a loss in revenue to be considered here as well as everything else that goes with losing them in tv , sponsorships etc …

Take all this into account and giving we are already struggling to compete with clubs for players in the lower leagues of England it could see this getting even harder …

You also got the bonus of when trying to get a player to come to our league the attraction of the big games against OF too ….

Don’t get me wrong in I hate the OF too and see the gap growing all the time were it’s getting harder to win silverware but I am of the opinion that the negatives without having them in the league outweigh the ones in having them .

[WestStandWillie]

Celtic fans are only interested in the OF games and Europe.

Mind in 2012/13 season, the 2-2 game at Celtic Park where Clancy and Cairney scored - there were at least a dozen Celtic fans sitting reading newspapers behind the goal. They were bored rigid.

You only need to watch highlights of their games to see how muted their celebrations are. There were a couple of cracking goals scored against Kilmarnock and it was a quick clap then sit back down.

It's crap that we won't win the league any time soon but there's no point putting yourself into a financial black hole to try.

[marinello59]

It's not an issue of ambition though. Sadly, we live in a country where it matters more to follow a club based on sectarian/political lines than it does based on where a person is from. As long as hoards of buses are going towards Parkhead or Ibrox each week from Inverness and Dumfries, nothing is going to change. These clubs will forever hold a significant advantage over the rest of us. The only real chance any club has of competing with them is if some mad man comes in and starts throwing his dodgy cash around and we seen how well that ended with our neighbours.

That's not strictly true. Outside of the central belt the vast majority of Old Firm supporters follow those two because they are the most successful. We saw the same thing happening with Aberdeen in the 80's, they attracted a huge amount of new supporters because they were the best team in the country by a considerable margin and were beating the Old Firm on a regular basis.
If the Old Firm were to start playing in a bigger league outside of Scotland then it would be the same effect but on steroids, they would attract even more support. It's never going to happen though so we have to find solutions with them still a part of our league. I mentioned ambition earlier, I don't just mean the ambition of individual clubs but of Scottish football as a whole.
With the European prize money giving the top clubs in several European leagues an advantage that increases every season then it's time for those leagues to band together and lobby for more of that money to be given to the leagues themselves.
We could maybe look at sharing gate receipts for league games again. We may never see a fifty fifty split again but maybe the away teams should get a percentage of what's taken in. There are ways to level the playing field a bit but it needs to be fought for.

[Victor]

The only way it will change is when people start supporting their local teams rather than following teams because of what they represent. Over 600,000 people live in central Scotland, putting it up there with Edinburgh and Glasgow in terms of population. But support for the myriad of teams in that area will be about 100+. That’s the problem.

[Eyrie]

That's not strictly true. Outside of the central belt the vast majority of Old Firm supporters follow those two because they are the most successful. We saw the same thing happening with Aberdeen in the 80's, they attracted a huge amount of new supporters because they were the best team in the country by a considerable margin and were beating the Old Firm on a regular basis.
If the Old Firm were to start playing in a bigger league outside of Scotland then it would be the same effect but on steroids, they would attract even more support. It's never going to happen though so we have to find solutions with them still a part of our league. I mentioned ambition earlier, I don't just mean the ambition of individual clubs but of Scottish football as a whole.
With the European prize money giving the top clubs in several European leagues an advantage that increases every season then it's time for those leagues to band together and lobby for more of that money to be given to the leagues themselves.
We could maybe look at sharing gate receipts for league games again. We may never see a fifty fifty split again but maybe the away teams should get a percentage of what's taken in. There are ways to level the playing field a bit but it needs to be fought for.

If some football fans want to be glory hunters then they won't get that following Celtc or the Huns in England or wherever they end up unless they are regularly winning. Instead there's a fair chance those fans will do what they did in the 80s and support whichever team is doing well in Scotland.

[Hibbyradge]

If some football fans want to be glory hunters then they won't get that following Celtc or the Huns in England or wherever they end up unless they are regularly winning. Instead there's a fair chance those fans will do what they did in the 80s and support whichever team is doing well in Scotland.

Not a single chance.

Celtic losing to Aston Villa wouldn't persuade anyone to follow Hibs, Aberdeen or anyone else.

Would you dump Hibs if we were in the English league and Edinburgh City were doing well?

Glory hunters or not, no-one would abandon Rantic for an SPFL team.

I don't recall anything of the sort happening in the 80s either. :dunno:

[Eyrie]

Not a single chance.

Celtic losing to Aston Villa wouldn't persuade anyone to follow Hibs, Aberdeen or anyone else.

Would you dump Hibs if we were in the English league and Edinburgh City were doing well?

Glory hunters or not, no-one would abandon Rantic for an SPFL team.

I don't recall anything of the sort happening in the 80s either. :dunno:

At my age I've long since accepted that being a Hibs fan is a life sentence.

But if I was a glory hunter looking for a team to support then I don't have that commitment to abandon.

[marinello59]

If some football fans want to be glory hunters then they won't get that following Celtc or the Huns in England or wherever they end up unless they are regularly winning. Instead there's a fair chance those fans will do what they did in the 80s and support whichever team is doing well in Scotland.

They’d wouldn’t have to be winning on a regular basis. The glamour associated with playing the biggest teams in England on a regular basis would be attractive enough on its own. That’s where kids still to decide which team they support would be looking.

[WhileTheChief..]

We are a point above Celtic in the last 20 games form table, tske that form into next season and we could be the team that breaks their dominance.

This is where I’m at.

No point blaming Celtic for anything here. They’ve done exactly what they should be doing, it’s up to the rest of us to find a way to close the gap.

They were crap before Fergus arrived. Maybe the BKs will have a similar impact on us.

[WhileTheChief..]

Ross County are just above 4000.

https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/scottish-premiership/attendances

That would probably be their TV audience for most games too.

When their own fans don’t even go to games, it’s crazy to think there’s a potential TV audience for them out there.

[WhileTheChief..]

If you really want to shake things up, introduce a handicap system to the league.

Win the league by 10 points, start next season on -10.

Start with that and take it from there!

[nonshinyfinish]

If you really want to shake things up, introduce a handicap system to the league.

Win the league by 10 points, start next season on -10.

Start with that and take it from there!

Applying that to the current season, Celtic are on the brink of winning the league and are 15 points ahead of Rangers. As soon as they have the title mathematically sewn up (probably this weekend), it would be in their interest to lose all of their remaining games to reduce their handicap.

Likewise if Rangers win at the weekend then they can't be caught in second, so their best bet would be to chuck their last four games as well, to try to maximise Celtic's handicap for next season.

[Bishop Hibee]

Two ways any clubs other than Rantic could win the league. The first is massive investment in players from an owner who’s happy to lose tens of millions in pursuit of a title. The second is if Rantic leave for a Euro League.

[Alex Trager]

I think that's a fundamental part of the issue though.

Ourselves, Hearts and Aberdeen just don't have the budget to compete on 2 fronts for a lengthy part of the season. Group stage football is great but with the size of squads we carry and the schedule demanded by those games qualifying one year seriously dents your chances of doing so again. To really reap the benefits you probably need to get those group stages 2, 3 or 4 years in a row to notice a transformative difference in your financial position. That was hard anyway, after this season it becomes significantly harder again.

I don't think it's lack of effort or ambition on the part of the next 3 biggest clubs. It's lack of adequate resources and the fact it's really, really difficult to build any sustainable (relative) success with those resources. How many times have we read Hibs fans all but discount European games because 'it's the league that matters'? We just aren't in a position to prioritise both and that's what would be required to build any prolonged advancement. Aberdeen probably came closest to achieving it under McInnes but didn't have the European rewards on offer since.

See, whilst the evidence absolutely bears this out (Hearts X2 and Sheep X 1 - though would argue some nuances in a couple of instances) how come the English lower leagues go twice a week all season no worries?

Hearts had 8 extra games than us because of Europe this season, it's hardly an additional full season on top. In fact, if you take our league cup competitive games into account, they had an additional 4 games than us (appreciate that they fell at different times).

[nonshinyfinish]

See, whilst the evidence absolutely bears this out (Hearts X2 and Sheep X 1 - though would argue some nuances in a couple of instances) how come the English lower leagues go twice a week all season no worries?

I think a key difference is that those clubs know they'll have that schedule every season and so they can build their squad appropriately. If we expand our squad to deal with European group stage games one season, but then don't qualify the following season (or only play a qualifier or too), then suddenly we have more players contracted than we need.

An English League One team might have to spread their budget a bit thinner to have more players to cope with the schedule, but they don't have the uncertainty of the schedule changing season to season.

[Centre Hawf]

See, whilst the evidence absolutely bears this out (Hearts X2 and Sheep X 1 - though would argue some nuances in a couple of instances) how come the English lower leagues go twice a week all season no worries?

Hearts had 8 extra games than us because of Europe this season, it's hardly an additional full season on top. In fact, if you take our league cup competitive games into account, they had an additional 4 games than us (appreciate that they fell at different times).

The lower leagues all have to do it. It's not like Portsmouth have a harder run than someone mid table they all will play their 46 league games and will play midweek fixtures at the same time as the rest of them so it evens itself out. Albeit the standard of play tends to suffer in the colder more hectic months. It's also not unusual to see some League 1/2 squads use just shy of 40 different players in a single season, even if 3/4 play 1 or 2 games or some guys turn up on loan for 2 months. Compare that to Hearts who are sitting about 30 players used this season.

Playing Group Stage football in Scotland is undoubtedly a 'hinderance' to your domestic run. Travelling to deepest darkest parts of former Iron Curtain nations or the arse ends of places where timezones are closer to resembling different dates in the calendar than matching your tea time in high stakes games will take it out of you before having to get back and have 2 days to prepare for a game against opponents that are already all quite close together in competitiveness fighting for every point they can get.

[danhibees1875]

Going against the grain a little (based off the 1 or 2 people who have commentated directly) but I do actually think someone outside the OF will win the league in my lifetime.

Not even a large scale investment/Hibs fan winning the euro millions and giving it all to Hibs situation. Just a bit of a one off year where someone does exceedingly well and both halves of the OF do particularly badly.

[Eyrie]

Going against the grain a little (based off the 1 or 2 people who have commentated directly) but I do actually think someone outside the OF will win the league in my lifetime.

Not even a large scale investment/Hibs fan winning the euro millions and giving it all to Hibs situation. Just a bit of a one off year where someone does exceedingly well and both halves of the OF do particularly badly.

I admire your optimism, Methuselah.