Hibs in £1.2m R&D tax credit

[IanM]

Hibernian banked £1.2 million in tax credit earmarked for research and development (R&D) last year, the Courier can reveal.

The HMRC scheme is designed to support studies in science and technology, with rules stating that a club can only apply if its work benefits an overall field, not solely their own business.

The Courier reported on Tuesday that United are staring down the barrel of a £600,000 repayment to HMRC after receiving £1.28 million during the financial period of 2021/22. The Tangerines have appealed the decision of the tax authorities.

That followed the launch of The United Lab in 2020, the brainchild of sporting director Tony Asghar, recruitment chief Sean McGee, performance consultant Ryland Morgans and head of research Dr Dan Parnell.

None are associated with the club today.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/sport/football/dundee-united/5185205/hibernian-bank-hmrc-tax-payout-dundee-united/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

[Centre Hawf]

Not sure what ours would be for, could be part of a green initiative for the solar panels/charging points? Total guess though.

[GreenNWhiteArmy]

Giant bat cave under east mains

[JohnM1875]

Gordons should be covering this as well if we have to repay anything.

[Centre Hawf]

Gordons should be covering this as well if we have to repay anything.

Genuine question but why should they?

We don't know what it was for, or who ultimately applied for it on our behalf.

[Since452]

Is this good or bad?

[Paulie Walnuts]

Is this good or bad?

Being given £1.2m is always good. It’s if it turns out we had a false claim it could become bad news, which wouldn’t be the shock of the century.

[Onceinawhile]

Not sure what ours would be for, could be part of a green initiative for the solar panels/charging points? Total guess though.

Can't be that.

Research and development is exactly what it sounds like. Usually you have to advance a field of knowledge. An example being, making plastic fishing rods out of carrots.

[Onceinawhile]

Is this good or bad?

It means hibs, or their advisors believe that we have spent money (wages, materials etc...) on the research and development of something new, or advancing a known technology.

As HMRC like to encourage this, they favour it by giving incentives, such as a tax credit for valid claims.

I can't think of anything obvious HFC have done that would qualify, but I don't know the inner workings. My concern would be that it's been a third party agency that has done it for their own purposes rather than on the actual grounds of the claim.

[Bayern Bru]

The article mentions our partnership with Kitman Labs, guessing it's that?

https://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/2024/september/24/kitman-labs-and-hibs-strike-deal-to-support-talent-development/

[Bostonhibby]

Is this good or bad?Depends on whether we are building the worlds biggest telly or subsidising lager prices in the hospitality ?

Joking aside if it's being used in accordance with the grant's terms it can only be good?

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

"The Courier can reveal" :rolleyes: It's in our accounts.

We have been claiming R&D Tax Credit for a few years now. It's based on work done by our performance and support services team. They are conducting studies on different performance plans .

The claim in the accounts is much larger than in earlier years, and I suspect it's for 4 years in total. Companies can go back 3 years and correct any underclaims in earlier years.

The definition of R&D is quite wide these days, and the process of claiming complicated, which is why there are so many agents out there doing the claims for companies.

[maturehibby]

All this technology and they can't fix Euan's big toe

[Bostonhibby]

All this technology and they can't fix Euan's big toeTo be fair I don't think doing chirpody on some random guy with a dodgy toe nail will be what the grant is for.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[Centre Hawf]

Can't be that.

Research and development is exactly what it sounds like. Usually you have to advance a field of knowledge. An example being, making plastic fishing rods out of carrots.

Maybe we're doing a research study to see if folk off the street can be professional footballers? Would justify a few signings at least.

[Up-the-slope]

It must be the genetically modified grass project where we are trying to create a new range of green foods for stadium outlets manufactured from the grass clippings

[danhibees1875]

I'd echo the "courier can reveal" eye roll. Making a story out of nothing, or at least making it sound much more problematic than it is, as far as I can see.

Would be interesting to see just how much HMRC give away/hand-back for various schemes like this. I've had experience with creative tax reliefs (perhaps poorly named!) and it can rack up into millions quite easily!

[Slim Shady]

The article mentions our partnership with Kitman Labs, guessing it's that?

https://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/2024/september/24/kitman-labs-and-hibs-strike-deal-to-support-talent-development/


Nope it was Innovative Partners.
I recall being at a BNI breakfast organised by the club where Ben and Inovative Partners were discussing this deal and the R&D tax.

https://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/2023/july/12/Hibs-Join-Up-With-Innovative-Partners/



(https://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/2023/july/12/Hibs-Join-Up-With-Innovative-Partners/)

[Jack]

I'm sure Hibs had a tie up with Queen Margaret University, not sure what it was about or if its still ongoing. We also took on phd students to do stuff.

[CropleyWasGod]

Nope it was Innovative Partners.
I recall being at a BNI breakfast organised by the club where Ben and Inovative Partners were discussing this deal and the R&D tax.

https://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/2023/july/12/Hibs-Join-Up-With-Innovative-Partners/



(https://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/2023/july/12/Hibs-Join-Up-With-Innovative-Partners/)

Thanks for this.

This knocks on the head the suspicion that we were using the same people to do our R&D claims as United. It also suggests that we were doing our claims in-house before, and that Innovative are now doing them.

It also explains why our claim was so high this year, compared to earlier years. They have likely reviewed our own claims for the previous 3 years, and revised them.

[Bayern Bru]

Nope it was Innovative Partners.
I recall being at a BNI breakfast organised by the club where Ben and Inovative Partners were discussing this deal and the R&D tax.

https://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/2023/july/12/Hibs-Join-Up-With-Innovative-Partners/



(https://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/2023/july/12/Hibs-Join-Up-With-Innovative-Partners/)

Nice one, thanks for clearing that up! :aok:

[Caversham Green]

Nope it was Innovative Partners.
I recall being at a BNI breakfast organised by the club where Ben and Inovative Partners were discussing this deal and the R&D tax.

https://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/2023/july/12/Hibs-Join-Up-With-Innovative-Partners/



(https://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/2023/july/12/Hibs-Join-Up-With-Innovative-Partners/)

That looks to me like Innovative Partners were preparing the tax relief claim, but weren't the source of the actual R&D expenditure - that could still be Kitman Labs (probably is imo).

[Jock O]

"The Courier can reveal" :rolleyes: It's in our accounts.

We have been claiming R&D Tax Credit for a few years now. It's based on work done by our performance and support services team. They are conducting studies on different performance plans .

The claim in the accounts is much larger than in earlier years, and I suspect it's for 4 years in total. Companies can go back 3 years and correct any underclaims in earlier years.

The definition of R&D is quite wide these days, and the process of claiming complicated, which is why there are so many agents out there doing the claims for companies.

Haven't HMRC being doing a sweep of companies after an additional "loophole" was closed a couple of years back, prior to that Consultant firms had being going round small to medium firms and saying they could significantly increase their claw back, but the Revenue are challenging many of them, which sounds like what has happened with Dundee Utd?

A friend who has a building company was in above circumstances, but the consultancy team were also dealing with Revenue investigation which I thought was a bit dangerous.

Not sure where I read about this. Nothing obvious on a Google.

Obviously not saying that is the situation Hibs are in, but seems to be an ongoing scenario for HMRC

Okay having googled nothing about any loophole, just lots about HMRC having shifted significant resource into reviewing claims for over exuberance, so looks like normal business it seems.

[CropleyWasGod]

Haven't HMRC being doing a sweep of companies after an additional "loophole" was closed a couple of years back, prior to that Consultant firms had being going round small to medium firms and saying they could significantly increase their claw back, but the Revenue are challenging many of them, which sounds like what has happened with Dundee Utd?

A friend who has a building company was in above circumstances, but the consultancy team were also dealing with Revenue investigation which I thought was a bit dangerous.

Not sure where I read about this. Nothing obvious on a Google.

Obviously not saying that is the situation Hibs are in, but seems to be an ongoing scenario for HMRC

Not sure about the sweep, but the whole field of R&D claims, and the firms who offer the service, has become cluttered in recent years (just as it used to be with companies offering Capital Allowances claims). There are likely to be a few cowboys in that field.

HMRC claim that they routinely audit 20% of R&D claims. Given their lack of resources, it's likely that the audits will focus on "riskier" claims. One source of risk will be claims assisted by those cowboys, based on previous experience with them.

The firm used by United seem to have a poor reputation, which might have been a contributor to their claim being challenged (or maybe the other way round?). I have no idea how "our" firm stand in terms of their reputation, but I am a bit more relaxed to see that we're not using the same one as United.

That said, the Courier and Times articles have now shone a light on us, so someone at HMRC might be thinking of making a name for themselves.

[Clarence]

We must have retained the IP on Lee Johnson’s app.

[JohnM1875]

So Rangers, Chelsea and Nottingham Forest the other British clubs with R&D tax credits. A who's who of dodgy teams.

And Fulham actually. Not sure how dodgy they are.

[CropleyWasGod]

So Rangers, Chelsea and Nottingham Forest the other British clubs with R&D tax credits. A who's who of dodgy teams.

And Fulham actually. Not sure how dodgy they are.

I suspect it's a lot more than that. Where are you getting your info from?

[JohnM1875]

I suspect it's a lot more than that. Where are you getting your info from?

Much more

Scotland coefficient on twitter

‘An investigation by The Times earlier this week revealed that 28 top-flight sports clubs - including Chelsea, Nottingham Forest, & Dundee United - have received a total of £13m in Research and Development (R&D) tax credits since the end of 2019.

Through my own investigation I have found that two additional Scottish Premiership clubs have also benefited from R&D tax credits over the years, receiving £1.282m and £748,000 respectively. These clubs were Hibs and Rangers.’ also goes on to say

‘Note: There is no suggestion that any of the football clubs have acted improperly.’

[Gloucester Hibs]

I suspect it's a lot more than that. Where are you getting your info from?

They talked about the R&D tax credits on Talksport the other day with their financial expert and those sides were mentioned, however Hibs were not.

[CropleyWasGod]

Much more

Scotland coefficient on twitter

‘An investigation by The Times earlier this week revealed that 28 top-flight sports clubs - including Chelsea, Nottingham Forest, & Dundee United - have received a total of £13m in Research and Development (R&D) tax credits since the end of 2019.

Through my own investigation I have found that two additional Scottish Premiership clubs have also benefited from R&D tax credits over the years, receiving £1.282m and £748,000 respectively. These clubs were Hibs and Rangers.’ also goes on to say

‘Note: There is no suggestion that any of the football clubs have acted improperly.’

I'm not getting you. A "who's who of dodgy clubs"?

[JohnM1875]

I'm not getting you. A "who's who of dodgy clubs"?

Rangers, Chelsea and Nottingham Forest. Wouldn't call them anything other than dodgy over the past few years with finances etc.

[CropleyWasGod]

Rangers, Chelsea and Nottingham Forest. Wouldn't call them anything other than dodgy over the past few years with finances etc.

Still not getting you.

Are you suggesting that clubs who have claimed RDEC are dodgy?

[JohnM1875]

Still not getting you.

Are you suggesting that clubs who have claimed RDEC are dodgy?

Given the clubs involved. I'd hazard a guess at most probably. Wouldn't want to be in the same circles as them with anything financial.

[CropleyWasGod]

Given the clubs involved. I'd hazard a guess at most probably. Wouldn't want to be in the same circles as them with anything financial.

Ok. Thanks for clarifying.

Can you tell us what is dodgy about our RDEC ?

[007]

We must have retained the IP on Lee Johnson’s app.

Bought it from the designer (guy downstairs that works for Dyson). 🤔

[ChicoM1875]

Genuine question but why should they?

We don't know what it was for, or who ultimately applied for it on our behalf.

Genuine question, but what's with this trend of writing "genuine question" before asking a question? Are other questions disingenuous?

[JohnM1875]

Ok. Thanks for clarifying.

Can you tell us what is dodgy about our RDEC ?

About ours, nope. All I said was its a list of what I'd consider dodgy clubs and don't like us being mentioned in the same articles as Huns, Chelsa and Nottingham Forest.

Probably soon find out.

[overdrive]

This was brought up at the AGM last night. Philippa Lombardi said she was confident that we are a much stronger position regarding this than other clubs that have been in the press about this. She said that the work that underpins the claims is genuine research that has been published in scientific journals and they've received professional advice that this is legit work that can be claimed for. She said that you never know what HMRC will come up with but she'd be surprised if this became an issue.

She said the claim is for two financial years.

[JohnM1875]

This was brought up at the AGM last night. Philippa Lombardi said she was confident that we are a much stronger position regarding this than other clubs that have been in the press about this. She said that the work that underpins the claims is genuine research that has been published in scientific journals and they've received professional advice that this is legit work that can be claimed for. She said that you never know what HMRC will come up with but she'd be surprised if this became an issue.

She said the claim is for two financial years.

Good stuff! Cheers for sharing 👍

[CropleyWasGod]

This was brought up at the AGM last night. Philippa Lombardi said she was confident that we are a much stronger position regarding this than other clubs that have been in the press about this. She said that the work that underpins the claims is genuine research that has been published in scientific journals and they've received professional advice that this is legit work that can be claimed for. She said that you never know what HMRC will come up with but she'd be surprised if this became an issue.

She said the claim is for two financial years.

Thanks for that. I did wonder if it would be mentioned.

Did she say when the claim was lodged? There is a time limit for challenging it.

Also, good news if it is only for 2 years. That suggests that future years' claims might be quite substantial as well.

(Not sure if I mentioned this previously, but Dundee United's arrangement with their advisors is that United would be able to reclaim 20% of any repayment to HMRC from the advisors. Hopefully, we have something like that in place just in case.)

[HoboHarry]

Giant bat cave under east mains
I hope no one eats any of them.

[overdrive]

Thanks for that. I did wonder if it would be mentioned.

Did she say when the claim was lodged? There is a time limit for challenging it.

Also, good news if it is only for 2 years. That suggests that future years' claims might be quite substantial as well.

(Not sure if I mentioned this previously, but Dundee United's arrangement with their advisors is that United would be able to reclaim 20% of any repayment to HMRC from the advisors. Hopefully, we have something like that in place just in case.)

Don't think she did, I'm afraid. If she did, I missed it.