Possession

[Donegal Hibby]

As someone that would have previously thought having plenty of possession was important , having checked our games with Aberdeen we haven’t exactly had a lot of it ( 48% , 35% , 37% ) but still managed two wins and a draw out of our three games against them …

In truth they never really hurt us too much as I can’t really remember Smith having to make any really good saves. That’s not to say we haven’t had our share of possession in other games because we have , maybe we are just willing to mix it up a bit at times when we have too ..

Only gripe I had was near the end of our 2-0 win against Aberdeen where I thought we could have kept possession better rather than giving it away cheaply …

I suppose it doesn’t really matter how much possession you have , it’s what you do with it that counts.

[Since452]

We used to have loads of possession under Maloney. Passing it around in safe areas with hardly any attacking threat. It was infuriating at times. Possession can be misleading. Teams are often happy for the other team to have the ball if they're not doing much with it.

[Donegal Hibby]

We used to have loads of possession under Maloney. Passing it around in safe areas with hardly any attacking threat. It was infuriating at times. Possession can be misleading. Teams are often happy for the other team to have the ball if they're not doing much with it.

Which could be what we did against Aberdeen in they had the possession but done very little with it and never really hurt us looked like they were.

[BILLYHIBS]

Aberdeen were totally toothless second half changed their formation brought on subs huffed and puffed but could not blow our defence down pleasing to see no one looks like hurting us we are solid at the back same stats second half as the Motherwell game Corners 1-6 score 3-1 Aberdeen second half corners 1-6 in their favour score 2-0
Love how our boys are playing as a unit as a team at the back celebrating and high fiving successful blocks a togetherness we did not have before

I believe Mogga called it winning ugly

Still a lot of football to be played though

[Viva_Palmeiras]

As someone that would have previously thought having plenty of possession was important , having checked our games with Aberdeen we haven’t exactly had a lot of it ( 48% , 35% , 37% ) but still managed two wins and a draw out of our three games against them …

In truth they never really hurt us too much as I can’t really remember Smith having to make any really good saves. That’s not to say we haven’t had our share of possession in other games because we have , maybe we are just willing to mix it up a bit at times when we have too ..

Only gripe I had was near the end of our 2-0 win against Aberdeen where I thought we could have kept possession better rather than giving it away cheaply …

I suppose it doesn’t really matter how much possession you have , it’s what you do with it that counts.

seems to me it’s the football equivalent of “rope-a-dope”.

[hibsbollah]

seems to me it’s the football equivalent of “rope-a-dope”.

:agree: and a lot easier to do when you have a back 5 or back 7 at the top of their game.

Possession % doesnt tell you much about a game youre not watching. I note we are still 3rd in expected goals, as we have been for most of the season even when we were bottom! This stat is much more insightful as to how well you’re actually doing with the ball. (At the weekend iirc we were over 1.5 expected goals, them under 0.5, which is a proper reflection of what was going on.

[Unseen work]

I wanted us to be a possession based time for a period of time. Then I saw us under Maloney and Monty and my eyes were bleeding at the so called ‘possession’ style of play.

Gray seems to be very pragmatic and similar to Jack Ross imo. He would have identified Aberdeen’s weakness is their inability to defend long balls, crosses and set pieces. We were patient at the back when we had it, trying to draw them out and hit the ball over the top.

We still dominate plenty teams and imo it’s probably then when we struggle as they do to us what we done to Aberdeen and we can at times struggle to break them down

[Tyler Durden]

Saturday was a great example, think Gray got the tactics spot on. Our back 3 sat deep and left no space in behind. Aberdeen played the game in front of us and never really looked a threat.

I think Gray in the last few months has given us what we initially thought a SDG team would look like. Aggression, more intense pressing, solid organised shape. The likes of Iredale and Nicky Cadden have helped improve the balance massively.

Think he's taken some of the Jack Ross approach around frequent switching of play but with a bit more variation and directness at times.

[wookie70]

Possession is over-rated imo. It leads to slow boring play which at our level against team who sit in makes it harder to score and win games. For me the quicker we play and get the ball forward, not talking about hammering it forward, the more likely we will score. The more passes we make the less chance we will score imo

[tamig]

Yogi used to bluster about possession based football. We had loads of possession under him - but it was all within about 40 yards of our goal. Really dull, insipid stuff.

[Fratelli]

On Saturday, Nottm Forest had less than 38% possession and won 7.0…

[Donegal Hibby]

seems to me it’s the football equivalent of “rope-a-dope”.

Yeah , it wasn’t a case of they forced us back and dominated possession but more like we let them in ‘ right you want the possession , carry on then ‘ and we’ll do our own thing , considering their last game at home they had I think 73% against St Mirren and still lost 3-0 it could very well have been good tactics on our behalf possibly 🤔

[ancient hibee]

:agree: and a lot easier to do when you have a back 5 or back 7 at the top of their game.

Possession % doesnt tell you much about a game youre not watching. I note we are still 3rd in expected goals, as we have been for most of the season even when we were bottom! This stat is much more insightful as to how well you’re actually doing with the ball. (At the weekend iirc we were over 1.5 expected goals, them under 0.5, which is a proper reflection of what was going on.

And 3rd equal in goals scored.

[jakedance]

Possession is over rated. Every manager who has come into Scottish football trying to introduce slow possession focussed fitba has failed. We don’t have the players for tiki taka football so you end up passing it back and forth across the defence before launching it forward eventually anyway to a defence that laps it up. Give me full throttle fitba any day. Get it forward and get intake thum.

[ian cruise]

seems to me it’s the football equivalent of “rope-a-dope”.

Always remember Bayern doing the to Arsenal in the Championss League knockout stage in 04/05 after their invincibles season5. Bayern just let them have as much of the ball as they wanted in 2/3rds if the pitch and dealt with any attacks with easy, cutting through Arsenal on the counter.

[Haymaker]

Barcelona had 89% possession in a game once, I believe the highest ever recorded (although it can be disputed, some say Celtc had 27%)

They lost 2 goals to one at Celtc Park.

Possession is great. What you do with it counts.

[shetlandhibee]

Saturday was a great example, think Gray got the tactics spot on. Our back 3 sat deep and left no space in behind. Aberdeen played the game in front of us and never really looked a threat.

I think Gray in the last few months has given us what we initially thought a SDG team would look like. Aggression, more intense pressing, solid organised shape. The likes of Iredale and Nicky Cadden have helped improve the balance massively.

Think he's taken some of the Jack Ross approach around frequent switching of play but with a bit more variation and directness at times.:agree::top marks

[Centre Hawf]

Possession for possession’s sake turned the sport into a dull as dishwater affair. There are exceptions like when Pep/Spain made it more popular again in the last 15 years. But even then watching his Man City team can be like watching paint dry.

The pursuit by coaches to prove their of the Pep mould has been insufferable. Folk like Johnson, Maloney, a lesser extent Montgomery for us. But elsewhere even seeing things like Kompany and Russell Martin stick to a failing philosophy to maintain a reputation of their style for future employers to look at is negligent to the club they’ve been employed by to win games.

Always get sick of hearing how a team or manager plays the right way but then i look at their record and its average at best. The best managers win games of football.

[greenlex]

We hammered hearts 1-0 in the CIS cup with 81%.

[Keith_M]

On Saturday, Nottm Forest had less than 38% possession and won 7.0…


Yeah but most of Brighton's possession was kicking off after conceding yet another goal.

[sauzeelegod]

I like possession football.
It has to be a fast quick tempo though.

I hate this endless passing around the centre backs for the sake of keeping the ball.

You need movement and to always play the ball forward.

[theonlywayisup]

On Saturday, Nottm Forest had less than 38% possession and won 7.0…

Wow! That is some stat!

I felt the Aberdeen game was easy for us. They had a lot of possession, but because our shape was excellent they did nothing with it. In such games, I feel we have the pace (Boyle & Youan when fit) and creativity (Nicky Cadden's crosses) to hit on the break and score goals.

However, I feel when the opposite happens and it's us that as the dominant possession we struggle to break down well organised teams as we don't always have the creativity to break down such teams. Maybe Manneh will provide that.


Possession for possession’s sake turned the sport into a dull as dishwater affair. There are exceptions like when Pep/Spain made it more popular again in the last 15 years. But even then watching his Man City team can be like watching paint dry.

The pursuit by coaches to prove their of the Pep mould has been insufferable. Folk like Johnson, Maloney, a lesser extent Montgomery for us. But elsewhere even seeing things like Kompany and Russell Martin stick to a failing philosophy to maintain a reputation of their style for future employers to look at is negligent to the club they’ve been employed by to win games.

Always get sick of hearing how a team or manager plays the right way but then i look at their record and its average at best. The best managers win games of football.

Agree, that's my frustration watching managers who want to play like Barcelona (or the next best trend), but don't have the players to match their preferred style of play and combat the opposition.

Scottish Football isn't rocket science - usually reliable goalkeeper, solid defence, hard working midfield, pace down the flanks and a big striker with an eye for the goals is all you need to get 3rd place in the league.

[Since452]

The Aberdeen game on Saturday was the easiest game we'll have all season. We barely had to get out of first gear to beat them. We had 37% possession.

They had 74% possession in their last game against St Mirren and lost 0-3. Extremely worrying if you're an Aberdeen fan.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Possession for possession’s sake turned the sport into a dull as dishwater affair. There are exceptions like when Pep/Spain made it more popular again in the last 15 years. But even then watching his Man City team can be like watching paint dry.

The pursuit by coaches to prove their of the Pep mould has been insufferable. Folk like Johnson, Maloney, a lesser extent Montgomery for us. But elsewhere even seeing things like Kompany and Russell Martin stick to a failing philosophy to maintain a reputation of their style for future employers to look at is negligent to the club they’ve been employed by to win games.

Always get sick of hearing how a team or manager plays the right way but then i look at their record and its average at best. The best managers win games of football.

I wouldn’t say Lee Johnson was a possession based manager.

Maloney and Montgomery definitely were. Maloney never had the players for it (or for anything really, the squad he had was absolutely abysmal) and Nick Montgomery was just utter guff who got so little out of his squad.

Agree about Pep 15 years or so ago. Tiki-Taka early 2010 Barca were incredible to watch, as were Spain. It was never just possession for possessions sake like we see now.

[hibsbollah]

I like possession football.
It has to be a fast quick tempo though.

I hate this endless passing around the centre backs for the sake of keeping the ball.

You need movement and to always play the ball forward.

The way Spain played at the last Euros was excellent. Possession based but also direct with fast wingers. Tremendous to watch.

[J-C]

Man City average around 75% possession but their recent record is brutal.

[we are hibs]

They should ban players being in the box at goal kicks again.

The worst thing in the world watching a centre half knock the ball 2 yards to the side for a goalie to lump it forward. Completely pointless

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[Since452]

I wouldn’t say Lee Johnson was a possession based manager.

Maloney and Montgomery definitely were. Maloney never had the players for it (or for anything really, the squad he had was absolutely abysmal) and Nick Montgomery was just utter guff who got so little out of his squad.

Agree about Pep 15 years or so ago. Tiki-Taka early 2010 Barca were incredible to watch, as were Spain. It was never just possession for possessions sake like we see now.

My recollection of Johnson was that he was attacking, quite direct and his team created loads of chances but we were horrific at the back. There were many games I enjoyed watching Hibs under LJ and some not so much but didn't quite get the hate. Maloneys Hibs was like watching paint dry and the less said about Montgomery the better.

The most successful we've been in recent years was under Ross when we were more of a counter attacking team.

[basehibby]

My recollection of Johnson was that he was attacking and his team created loads of chances but we were horrific at the back. There were many games I enjoyed watching Hibs under LJ and some not so much but didn't quite get the hate. Maloneys Hibs was like watching paint dry and the less said about Montgomery the better.

This is where I'm at. Johnson changed things for the better after the ineffective tippy-tappy fair dished up by a naive Maloney in his first job and and it was very noticeable that we got the ball forward much more quickly and created more chances as a result. Johnson certainly had his own faults but boredom wasn't one of them. Under him we veered between spectacularly good and spectacularly bad - his attention to detail left a lot to be desired but dull we were not!
Montgomery was the worst of that trio. His style was absolutely dull as ditch water but he stuck to it with a rigidity that stank of a man totally out of his depth and out of ideas.

Gray has said from the start that he intends to take a pragmatic approach - tweaking style and formation as necessary. THIS for me is the way to go. There is no such thing as the ultimate style or formation - only the right approach for a particular game and set of players - or even a portion of that game.

[Centre Hawf]

I wouldn’t say Lee Johnson was a possession based manager.

Maloney and Montgomery definitely were. Maloney never had the players for it (or for anything really, the squad he had was absolutely abysmal) and Nick Montgomery was just utter guff who got so little out of his squad.

Agree about Pep 15 years or so ago. Tiki-Taka early 2010 Barca were incredible to watch, as were Spain. It was never just possession for possessions sake like we see now.

You're probably right about Johnson and I'm unfairly lumping him in with the rest due to his obsession with being mentioned and involved with the City Group rather than the actual style he implemented game to game while with us.

[Donegal Hibby]

My recollection of Johnson was that he was attacking, quite direct and his team created loads of chances but we were horrific at the back. There were many games I enjoyed watching Hibs under LJ and some not so much but didn't quite get the hate. Maloneys Hibs was like watching paint dry and the less said about Montgomery the better.

The most successful we've been in recent years was under Ross when we were more of a counter attacking team.

LJ’s teams were attacking . I remember absolutely dreading us going to Parkhead more than normal because i just knew he was going to give it a go which proved fatal , did have some good results and performances too though…

Watching Hibs under Maloney was exactly how you describe it as watching paint dry and that hasn’t seemed to have changed much with Wigan as they are joint lowest scorers in the league 1 ..

You could see what Monty was trying to do in playing out from the back but for a number of reasons it wasn’t working and he seemed unwilling to change it which IMO eventually lead to his downfall…

I like the way Gray has us in working hard , great spirit in the team and not focused on dominating possession and building out from the back but a more direct approach were we get the ball into the box and create chances .

[Tyler Durden]

I wouldn’t say Lee Johnson was a possession based manager.

Maloney and Montgomery definitely were. Maloney never had the players for it (or for anything really, the squad he had was absolutely abysmal) and Nick Montgomery was just utter guff who got so little out of his squad.

Agree about Pep 15 years or so ago. Tiki-Taka early 2010 Barca were incredible to watch, as were Spain. It was never just possession for possessions sake like we see now.

Maloney has the same issues at Wigan. Even allowing for their financial issues, their fans moan about the same plodding possession and lack of threat going forward. It's like he's read two thirds of the coaching manual but missed the part about creating chances and scoring goals.

[Haymaker]

Maloney has the same issues at Wigan. Even allowing for their financial issues, their fans moan about the same plodding possession and lack of threat going forward. It's like he's read two thirds of the coaching manual but missed the part about creating chances and scoring goals.

It's a major thing in Coaching nowadays and ignores one of your key principles of attacking: BE UNPREDICTABLE.

Doing the same thing over and over again is predictable and easily countered unless you have access to the top elite 1%of professional footballers, and even then it doesn't always work.

[Not In The Know]

Possesision football can be confused with holding onto the ball (when you want to).

Being able to keep the ball, pass it quickly and well for bursts of play means you are good at keeping possession and usually will do well. Trying to keep just hold onto the ball for extend periods is just boring and usually means about 20 passes between the DMs and defenders with the other team just watching.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Possesision football can be confused with holding onto the ball (when you want to).

Being able to keep the ball, pass it quickly and well for bursts of play means you are good at keeping possession and usually will do well. Trying to keep just hold onto the ball for extend periods is just boring and usually means about 20 passes between the DMs and defenders with the other team just watching.

Your last point is why I always find it surprising when people say they could see what Nick Montgomery was trying to do. What you’ve described is exactly what we done under him imo which is criminal as he had a squad capable of so much more. Whilst we done similar under Maloney (and I take the point he’s apparently still like that) his squad was utterly woeful and he had them about punching their weight imo.

[Centre Hawf]

Your last point is why I always find it surprising when people say they could see what Nick Montgomery was trying to do. What you’ve described is exactly what we done under him imo which is criminal as he had a squad capable of so much more. Whilst we done similar under Maloney (and I take the point he’s apparently still like that) his squad was utterly woeful and he had them about punching their weight imo.

I agree. That's probably where I was wrong with Johnson's style as he would allow us to get it forward a bit quicker when it was on and wasn't afraid of letting someone like McGeady or Youan take on their man to fashion a cross for Nisbet or getting it into Mykola early enough for him to actually attack it.

[Donegal Hibby]

Your last point is why I always find it surprising when people say they could see what Nick Montgomery was trying to do. What you’ve described is exactly what we done under him imo which is criminal as he had a squad capable of so much more. Whilst we done similar under Maloney (and I take the point he’s apparently still like that) his squad was utterly woeful and he had them about punching their weight imo.

For what is worth I don’t think Monty and Maloney were similar in the way they wanted us to play . Maloney just didn’t have a clue how to create chances and a lot of his style of play was possession based football that was dull and boring.

Monty’s even though it didn’t work was about building out from the back and drawing the other team onto you which was supposed to create space .

Both managers approach never worked at us but one was successful with his way while the other is still getting called out for it by fans which is clear to see by the amount of goals scored this season.

[Paulie Walnuts]

For what is worth I don’t think Monty and Maloney were similar in the way they wanted us to play . Maloney just didn’t have a clue how to create chances and a lot of his style of play was possession based football that was dull and boring.

Monty’s even though it didn’t work was about building out from the back and drawing the other team onto you which was supposed to create space .

Both managers approach never worked at us but one was successful with his way while the other is still getting called out for it by fans which is clear to see by the amount of goals scored this season.

Whilst you (and possibly others) see building out from the back, I saw a team who didn’t have a clue what they were doing with the ball at the back. The other team were invited onto us because they could see we were clueless.

Montgomery was succesfull with a side who are one of the most succesful in Australia and then was a colossal failure the minute he arrived in a decent standard of league. He’ll likely never get another managerial job in Britain whilst Maloney is having a fairly sustained stint at a League One side. Maloney is a much, much better manager than Montgomery, both from what we’ve seen here and what he’s went on to do since imo. Montgomery is the worst we had since Butcher.

[Donegal Hibby]

Whilst you (and possibly others) see building out from the back, I saw a team who didn’t have a clue what they were doing with the ball at the back. The other team were invited onto us because they could see we were clueless.

Montgomery was succesfull with a side who are one of the most succesful in Australia and then was a colossal failure the minute he arrived in a decent standard of league. He’ll likely never get another managerial job in Britain whilst Maloney is having a fairly sustained stint at a League One side. Maloney is a much, much better manager than Montgomery, both from what we’ve seen here and what he’s went on to do since imo. Montgomery is the worst we had since Butcher.

Other teams were invited onto us in a tactic to create space which has become a common feature with teams in football now . I don’t think we had the players to execute it properly as well as some other reasons , it was as I said his unwillingness to change it ( plan B ) which lead to his downfall IMO .

Maloney’s plan was basically to keep the ball and not do anything with it ! Monty’s first managerial job was a successful in winning something , improving the team , developing young players who went on to make the club money .. Maloney has done nothing of note as a manager and even though there’s not a lot to choose from it’s debatable wither he’s any better than Monty …

Personally I think he will eventually get the run at Wigan …

https://forums.vitalfootball.co.uk/threads/are-you-satisfied-with-the-job-sean-maloney-is-doing.142305/

[Paulie Walnuts]

Other teams were invited onto us in a tactic to create space which has become a common feature with teams in football now . I don’t think we had the players to execute it properly as well as some other reasons , it was as I said his unwillingness to change it ( plan B ) which lead to his downfall IMO .

Maloney’s plan was basically to keep the ball and not do anything with it ! Monty’s first managerial job was a successful in winning something , improving the team , developing young players who went on to make the club money .. Maloney has done nothing of note as a manager and even though there’s not a lot to choose from it’s debatable wither he’s any better than Monty …

Personally I think he will eventually get the run at Wigan …

https://forums.vitalfootball.co.uk/threads/are-you-satisfied-with-the-job-sean-maloney-is-doing.142305/

Na not for me. It wasn’t a tactic, it was a product of how utterly murder we were under Montgomery. Ultimately they both finished in 8th place in the league. There can be little doubt that Maloney done it with an infinitely poorer squad.

Maloney may well get sacked at Wigan, almost all managers eventually do. I’d suspect he’ll be absolutely fine this season with them being fairly well clear of relegation.

[HarpOnHibee]

Possession percentage statistics are meaningless. It's what teams do both on and off the ball that matters, not how much they hold onto the ball. Nottingham Forrest beat Brighton 7-0 at the weekend with less than 38% of the possession. Wolves beat Aston Villa 2-0 with less than 32% of the possesion. Holding onto the ball and knocking it around a lot doesn't automatically translate into good football, not when the opposition team presses hard and forces numerous mistakes.

[Since452]

Na not for me. It wasn’t a tactic, it was a product of how utterly murder we were under Montgomery. Ultimately they both finished in 8th place in the league. There can be little doubt that Maloney done it with an infinitely poorer squad.

Maloney may well get sacked at Wigan, almost all managers eventually do. I’d suspect he’ll be absolutely fine this season with them being fairly well clear of relegation.

8th was criminal with the squad Montgomery had. He rightly paid the price. As did Maloney.

Like others have said, Gray seems more adaptable, or at least willing to adapt. It's definitely not all about possession with him which is great.

[A Hi-Bee]

Possession is nine tenths of the law, in football it could be said that if you have the ball the other team cannot score, boring but effective football just depends on your point of view.

[HarpOnHibee]

Possession is nine tenths of the law, in football it could be said that if you have the ball the other team cannot score, boring but effective football just depends on your point of view.

That would be true for teams that have 100% of the possession statistic. In other words, no team. The other team is always going to see at least some of the ball and if they're winning those balls in dangerous areas or are able to make dangerous breaks, they arguably have better opportunities to score goals compared to the team who spends their 70-80% of the possession knocking it side to side and not really getting anywhere with it because the other team is actually controlling the game off the ball and giving them nowhere to go with it.

[hibsbollah]

Possession is nine tenths of the law, in football it could be said that if you have the ball the other team cannot score, boring but effective football just depends on your point of view.

Done well, the possession game is about creating numerical advantage in attacking areas as you wear down markers and pre-arranged movement creates this. I bought a book online explaining how Bielsa got his teams to set up and which positions they needed to move into. And of course, that style requires ferocious pressing as soon as you lose the ball. Its a far cry from just pass it side to side.

[Donegal Hibby]

Possession is nine tenths of the law, in football it could be said that if you have the ball the other team cannot score, boring but effective football just depends on your point of view.

Johan Cruijff was supposed to have said … without the ball , you can’t win . If we have the ball , they can’t score”.

[ian cruise]

This is where I'm at. Johnson changed things for the better after the ineffective tippy-tappy fair dished up by a naive Maloney in his first job and and it was very noticeable that we got the ball forward much more quickly and created more chances as a result. Johnson certainly had his own faults but boredom wasn't one of them. Under him we veered between spectacularly good and spectacularly bad - his attention to detail left a lot to be desired but dull we were not!
Montgomery was the worst of that trio. His style was absolutely dull as ditch water but he stuck to it with a rigidity that stank of a man totally out of his depth and out of ideas.

Gray has said from the start that he intends to take a pragmatic approach - tweaking style and formation as necessary. THIS for me is the way to go. There is no such thing as the ultimate style or formation - only the right approach for a particular game and set of players - or even a portion of that game.

There was an excellent graphic from his time at Sunderland (I think) detailing Johnson ball, which was get it up the wings as quick as possible and see what happens.

[Baader]

Montgomery was a disaster. Not capable of changing anything, just the same formation and tactics week after week hoping for a different result. Had wanted him for the job as well but he came across as clueless not long into it.

[Not In The Know]

Newcastle V Arsenal proving the point tonight.

Be good with the ball don’t pretend to hog it.