Academy plundering

[tonyrougier123]

Although it hasn’t happened to us much from memory, I feel this is an area that needs serious consideration by uefa/fifa. Receiving paltry amounts of cash that is quite frankly pissing in the wind to some of these cash rich clubs is insulting to the game and is an advantage that needs to be stamped out. I think the penalty for such transactions needs to be much higher to stop it happening without much consideration.
Your future stars are never quite yours and the fee you receive isn’t anywhere near enough for the work and effort of the clubs.
You’d never want to hold back a player but clubs with enormous wealth should be paying fairly for other clubs talented youngsters.

[Jones28]

Agree with this to a point, but how can you apply a cash valuation to someone who's barely kicked a ball in mens football?

£100,000 for every year spent within your academy perhaps? That would be A) much better for the clubs developing the player if the fee is paid and B) minimal 20% sell on fee, or in lieu of that you could have a first refusal clause?

[HIBS NUTS]

Longbangers made a very relevant point last night, because there is no longer free movement for players who aren’t full internationals, English clubs can no longer raid EU countries academy’s, Scottish academy players are therefore much more sought after, to make up the numbers.

[Centre Hawf]

Longbangers made a very relevant point last night, because there is no longer free movement for players who aren’t full internationals, English clubs can no longer raid EU countries academy’s, Scottish academy players are therefore much more sought after, to make up the numbers.

That's exactly what it is. It's also why a lot of laddies have went abroad too as bigger clubs see Scottish players as a cheap market to pinch players to sell back into England for inflated fees. Hickey a prime example of how it can pay off.

[Pete70]

This may also benefit the National team as you’d think the EPL clubs will develop them to a higher level where they hopefully break through to the first team.

[Since452]

If we're selling youth players who are unlikely to impact the first team for six figure fees then I'm quite pleased. Hopefully we can sell one or two others for a similar price. Pennies for English teams. Good fees for us.

[Jones28]

Longbangers made a very relevant point last night, because there is no longer free movement for players who aren’t full internationals, English clubs can no longer raid EU countries academy’s, Scottish academy players are therefore much more sought after, to make up the numbers.

So on that point that young talent is moving south to make up numbers then we should be charging them through the nose, otherwise it's an incredible waste of potential.

Hopefully we have with Landers.

[HIBS NUTS]

This may also benefit the National team as you’d think the EPL clubs will develop them to a higher level where they hopefully break through to the first team.
Things aren’t always like that, I’ve heard that some of the young players, that go to London are paid a lot more in wages than they would get here, however, staying in a accommodation, and cost of living negates some of that.
The signing on fee is almost life changing, but if a young player goes from living at home, with his parents , then receives a wad of money, and goes into an environment were he knows absolutely no one, the temptations of going out, when you have, no chance of playing proper competitive competition, must be higher.
On the odd occasion I’ve seen EPL development teams , at HTC, I’ve never been overly impressed, Newcastle and Middlesbrough spring to mind.
Hibs had to accept a 6 figure fee, and sell on.

[wookie70]

I don't think you can turn down six figures for a player who isn't currently looking like a first team player. I'd have been delighted to get that figure for quite a few that have lingered around the first team squad in recent years. Josh has an amazing opportunity, our Development programme shows it can bring money into the club and we have the security of a sell on. That sell on will likely be much more than we would get if Josh had a few good seasons in the first team as the bigger sides always get more for a similar standard of player. I love seeing youngsters breaking through but I think this is a win win and wish Josh all the luck in teh world.

[superfurryhibby]

If we're selling youth players who are unlikely to impact the first team for six figure fees then I'm quite pleased. Hopefully we can sell one or two others for a similar price. Pennies for English teams. Good fees for us.

That's a very naive and short-term stance.

They will continue to hoover up the talent on the cheap, 100,000k now or a player who develops and shines for us, then goes for a bigger fee?

We may as well scrap the academies.

[The Modfather]

If we're selling youth players who are unlikely to impact the first team for six figure fees then I'm quite pleased. Hopefully we can sell one or two others for a similar price. Pennies for English teams. Good fees for us.

Will it be a rarity going forward to see youngsters breaking into the first team? We’re incredibly poor at it as it stands, how many will we see when those with a chance of making it are picked of by English clubs. What are the chances of a player falling through the net of English clubs and then making the step up to the first team?

If it was up to me I’d fast track the best youngsters and have, say 2 or 3, spaces in the squad assigned to our most promising youngsters every season. Give them the opportunity to train and earn some game time if they are good enough. Would show a genuine pathway to the first team and a perhaps a better opportunity to develop and then get the move to England rather than getting swallowed up by the English clubs stockpiling youngsters.

[wookie70]

If it was up to me I’d fast track the best youngsters and have, say 2 or 3, spaces in the squad assigned to our most promising youngsters every season. Give them the opportunity to train and earn some game time if they are good enough. Would show a genuine pathway to the first team and a perhaps a better opportunity to develop and then get the move to England rather than getting swallowed up by the English clubs stockpiling youngsters.

I agree with that. Our bench at points this year has had very little to be excited about and none of the players who were filling it had any potential and the chance of changing a few miles. When it gets to that point with the like of McKirdy, JDH etc then I'm not sure we have much to lose by trying a youngster who has been flying in the Dev team. I also thinks it brings the club together with most supporters really getting behind the young players and a wee sense of positivity

[Lago]

Will it be a rarity going forward to see youngsters breaking into the first team? We’re incredibly poor at it as it stands, how many will we see when those with a chance of making it are picked of by English clubs. What are the chances of a player falling through the net of English clubs and then making the step up to the first team?

If it was up to me I’d fast track the best youngsters and have, say 2 or 3, spaces in the squad assigned to our most promising youngsters every season. Give them the opportunity to train and earn some game time if they are good enough. Would show a genuine pathway to the first team and a perhaps a better opportunity to develop and then get the move to England rather than getting swallowed up by the English clubs stockpiling youngsters.
Excellent post, my thoughts exactly, I despair at the lack of young talent going through the system without an opportunity to experience life in the 1st team squad. It's maybe time it became mandatory to include a specific number of them in a match day squad.

[Baader]

100k is peanuts. Landers had been at Hibs for seven or so years, the money paid probably doesn't cover much more than the costs of developing a player over those years. The sell on is a positive but why should his value suddenly leap up just because he's at West Ham's academy with less chance of making the first team as opposed to ours where he had more? Whether its longer contracts or increased minimal compensation for academy players, something probably needs implemented across football as otherwise, for clubs like us, it's just not going to be worth developing talents that may potentially be considered capable of playing at a higher level than Scottish football.

[Hibs90]

Why can’t there be a rule that if a youth player signs with a club they can’t be sold until they are at least 18 or made X amount of first team apps? Something like that would put a stop to the poaching

[overdrive]

Why can’t there be a rule that if a youth player signs with a club they can’t be sold until they are at least 18 or made X amount of first team apps? Something like that would put a stop to the poaching

Then we wouldn’t get anything for the likes of Landers who wouldn’t be getting a game in the first team. You could argue that would wreck some players careers too as it would put a barrier to them moving down the food chain too.

[marinello59]

Why can’t there be a rule that if a youth player signs with a club they can’t be sold until they are at least 18 or made X amount of first team apps? Something like that would put a stop to the poaching

You can't have kids signing up to anything like that. It would tip the balance of power over their fledgling careers too far towards the club they signed for.

[overdrive]

Agree with this to a point, but how can you apply a cash valuation to someone who's barely kicked a ball in mens football?

£100,000 for every year spent within your academy perhaps? That would be A) much better for the clubs developing the player if the fee is paid and B) minimal 20% sell on fee, or in lieu of that you could have a first refusal clause?

How would (A) work for clubs further down the food chain? I know we’ve paid good money for the likes of McAllister before but let’s say we are interested in a young player from Spartans. We won’t be wanting to spend several hundreds of thousands on him. The clubs that could afford that probably wouldn’t be interested. Again, putting up barriers to players progressing their careers in either direction.

[Jones28]

How would (A) work for clubs further down the food chain? I know we’ve paid good money for the likes of McAllister before but let’s say we are interested in a young player from Spartans. We won’t be wanting to spend several hundreds of thousands on him. The clubs that could afford that probably wouldn’t be interested. Again, putting up barriers to players progressing their careers in either direction.

It was more meant for English Prem clubs poaching youngsters from us.

I would say you could argue the same for Spartans etc but I don't know how much business we do in that area.

[Pretty Boy]

It's a difficult situation for both clubs and players.

We just can't compete financially with a West Ham. They can offer him a wage that would be comparable to a 1st team wage here when he isn't at that level. It would be madness for Hibs to try and compete with that unless it was a player who was a generational talent. Maybe Landers is but the fact he is nearly 18 and not even making first team squads suggests not.

For the players they have to balance that financial security and ability to train daily at a higher level against the far lower chance of making a first team breakthrough. Calvin Ramsay is a good example. Featured regularly for Aberdeen, no one is turning down a move to Liverpool but suddenly we are 3 years and 3 unsuccessful loans down the line and he's at Kilmarnock on loan at 21 and at a real turning point. From a development point of view he'd have been better spending another season or 2 at Aberdeen and playing first team football regularly. Another is Callan McKenna at Bournemouth. I saw him play for Queens Park at 16 and he's a freak in terms of size, he's a bit similar to Wayne Rooney in that he is a fully grown man when still almost a child. I thought Scotland had their future goalkeeper for the next 15 years. He's been down at Bournemouth for about a year now and is primarily playing age group football albeit he has been on the fringes of the first team and will likely be more so now with Travers loaned out. Obviously training with a guy like Kepa every day won't be doing him any harm at all but I can't help but think another season of 30+ games at Queens Park would have done him a lot more good.

Steven Fletcher is probably a good example of that slow and steady development leading to a solid career. He was in and about the Hibs first team at 17, established himself as a regular then as the main man and played the best part of 200 1st team games for us before his big move south. Part of me thinks a lot of these young guys will head south at a young age to make up numbers, get lost in the system and end up devoid of confidence and spiraling back down the levels by their early 20s. It's a tough gig being told you are a failed footballer when still in your teens and it's not always easy to recapture the form that got you noticed in the 1st place because of that. Got the T shirt etc etc.

[ian cruise]

If we're selling youth players who are unlikely to impact the first team for six figure fees then I'm quite pleased. Hopefully we can sell one or two others for a similar price. Pennies for English teams. Good fees for us.

If we sell 5 or 6 players at 100k a year that's more than we sell most first team players for.

Young players know we have a reputation for good coaching and then being a stepping stone to English academies.

Anyone we think is a real talent but can't convince to stay we make sure there's a great sell on attached. Include a clause that we get first refusal if they're being sold on.

Build good relationships with clubs to encourage them to send developing players ij our direction also.

I get we would love a team who predominantly came through the ranks with Hibs but that's not happened in decades and the way modern football is it's unlikely to happen again. Might as well make the most of it that we can rather than playing hardball and getting a bad reputation as a club for younger players to be at.

[superfurryhibby]

If we sell 5 or 6 players at 100k a year that's more than we sell most first team players for.

Young players know we have a reputation for good coaching and then being a stepping stone to English academies.

Anyone we think is a real talent but can't convince to stay we make sure there's a great sell on attached. Include a clause that we get first refusal if they're being sold on.

Build good relationships with clubs to encourage them to send developing players ij our direction also.

I get we would love a team who predominantly came through the ranks with Hibs but that's not happened in decades and the way modern football is it's unlikely to happen again. Might as well make the most of it that we can rather than playing hardball and getting a bad reputation as a club for younger players to be at.

We will never be selling that many boys at those prices. We have had fees for three in recent years, if we count Connor Young.

[overdrive]

It was more meant for English Prem clubs poaching youngsters from us.

I would say you could argue the same for Spartans etc but I don't know how much business we do in that area.

My point is how would you set an arbitrary amount? £100k per year for a EPL club, £50k for a EFL/SPFL Prem club? You'd get the yo-yo clubs stockpiling players in the EFL years to save a bit of cash.

How would it work for players that have moved on? Here's a scenario using the above figures. Player goes from Spartans to Hibs. He's been at Spartans academy for 10 years (just to keep the maths simple). Hibs pay Spartans £500k (£50k x 10 years). Actually, Hibs weren't interested in him at all. Bournemouth were. If Bournemouth went in direct, it would have cost them £1m (£100k x 10 years). He's now in the BKFC group ready to be punted around the group on loan for half that. Or he moves to Bournemouth's academy a year later for £100k. Total cost £600k instead of £1m.

[HIBS NUTS]

Just to balance things out, about how difficult it is to keep young players, Liverpool poached Ben Doak 17, after he had played 2 senior games for Celtic.
Celtic received £600,000 development fee.

[danhibees1875]

My point is how would you set an arbitrary amount? £100k per year for a EPL club, £50k for a EFL/SPFL Prem club? You'd get the yo-yo clubs stockpiling players in the EFL years to save a bit of cash.

How would it work for players that have moved on? Here's a scenario using the above figures. Player goes from Spartans to Hibs. He's been at Spartans academy for 10 years (just to keep the maths simple). Hibs pay Spartans £500k (£50k x 10 years). Actually, Hibs weren't interested in him at all. Bournemouth were. If Bournemouth went in direct, it would have cost them £1m (£100k x 10 years). He's now in the BKFC group ready to be punted around the group on loan for half that. Or he moves to Bournemouth's academy a year later for £100k. Total cost £600k instead of £1m.

Maybe the fee could be based on the division the selling club plays in, as opposed to the buying club? :dunno:

It's a hard one - not much you can do about it in the current economic climate but it's a shame that we're less likely to see promising youngsters break through the ranks as more get swept up by bigger clubs. Fully aware we're on the problem side of the equation with teams smaller than us though...

[The dalmeny]

Then we wouldn’t get anything for the likes of Landers who wouldn’t be getting a game in the first team. You could argue that would wreck some players careers too as it would put a barrier to them moving down the food chain too.

Spot on, Comments like £100,000 for each year in the academy are laughable. I suspect loads of academy players say U16 and younger are shirt fillers anyway and are unlikely to be anywhere near premier or championship standard.

Even U21s there will be those who are good enough to play league football but probably PT. A part time club is 'never' going to be able to afford a dev fee of significance.

And there's what the player wants to do himself, maybe he wants to move down south if there's an opportunity. I suspect putting barriers in place contravenes employment law (happy to be corrected). this might make players think twice about going to a certain academy.

Particularly with the size of our leagues the threat of relegation is significant enough for managers to be reluctant to use young players to any great extent although that doesn't stop older players being brought in and turning out as diddies too.

[The dalmeny]

If it was up to me I’d fast track the best youngsters and have, say 2 or 3, spaces in the squad assigned to our most promising youngsters every season. Give them the opportunity to train and earn some game time if they are good enough. Would show a genuine pathway to the first team and a perhaps a better opportunity to develop and then get the move to England rather than getting swallowed up by the English clubs stockpiling youngsters.

Depending on the Club many of these guys will train with the first team anyway. Get these players on loan to get them match experience rather than have them bench warming for the odd 10 or 15 minutes here and there.

[Jones28]

My point is how would you set an arbitrary amount? £100k per year for a EPL club, £50k for a EFL/SPFL Prem club? You'd get the yo-yo clubs stockpiling players in the EFL years to save a bit of cash.

How would it work for players that have moved on? Here's a scenario using the above figures. Player goes from Spartans to Hibs. He's been at Spartans academy for 10 years (just to keep the maths simple). Hibs pay Spartans £500k (£50k x 10 years). Actually, Hibs weren't interested in him at all. Bournemouth were. If Bournemouth went in direct, it would have cost them £1m (£100k x 10 years). He's now in the BKFC group ready to be punted around the group on loan for half that. Or he moves to Bournemouth's academy a year later for £100k. Total cost £600k instead of £1m.

So...what? Is that a good thing? A bad thing? The club that developed the player to the point of a move have received £600k.

[CentreForward]

Very disappointed about Landers. Haven’t seen much of him but had a feeling that he was going to go on and do well for us. A real shame that we will never get the chance to see what he could have done.

[CL0762]

That's a very naive and short-term stance.

They will continue to hoover up the talent on the cheap, 100,000k now or a player who develops and shines for us, then goes for a bigger fee?

We may as well scrap the academies.

On your last sentence, isn’t this actually evidence that the academy is working that a player has been sought after by a Premier League club?

This isn’t just happening to us btw, I seen a Dundee United youth player went to Ipswich. As also mentioned Doak going to Liverpool, one of Rangers highly regarded youth strikers went to Aston Villa.

[WhileTheChief..]

That's a very naive and short-term stance.

They will continue to hoover up the talent on the cheap, 100,000k now or a player who develops and shines for us, then goes for a bigger fee?

We may as well scrap the academies.

We should close down the academy and forget about trying to develop youth players. It’s a complete waste of time and money.

Use whatever cash we have to sign players ready for the first team.

[Lago]

We should close down the academy and forget about trying to develop youth players. It’s a complete waste of time and money.

Use whatever cash we have to sign players ready for the first team.
Based on what appears to be happening I think your right, a load of money being spent and I'm not sure what the return in investment Hibs are getting.

[Jones28]

On your last sentence, isn’t this actually evidence that the academy is working that a player has been sought after by a Premier League club?

This isn’t just happening to us btw, I seen a Dundee United youth player went to Ipswich. As also mentioned Doak going to Liverpool, one of Rangers highly regarded youth strikers went to Aston Villa.

Fair point, but to who's benefit is the academy if all it becomes is a pathway for players to not play for Hibs?

The best ones go to England, some get loaned out around the lower leagues, most get released at the end of their deals.

It's hard to know with fees being mostly undisclosed but I don't think the academy will be anything like breaking even.

[Since452]

I think a club like Hibs should always have an academy. Young players coming through is part of our tradition. If it's doable then we should do it. Like others have said all clubs lose the odd player to England now. I'd rather lose the women's team if we're going to cut back on something.

[HIBS NUTS]

We should close down the academy and forget about trying to develop youth players. It’s a complete waste of time and money.

Use whatever cash we have to sign players ready for the first team.
I think you need an academy team to compete in first team European competitions.
We woudnt have got £3 million for Josh DOIG, either.

[Jock O]

Interesting comments from Man U manager on academies, especially given the money they have turned over.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c0m1pgl4pr3o

I am never sure in reality we are worse than anyone else in getting our guys through, the return is pretty low it seems for most. As it is a necessity for us to have one, or I thought it was, making it sure it washes its own faces in sales is probably equally important to us, as Man U guy is implying for them. Obviously we want to be better than others, so not saying current status is where we want to be, but I suspect improving involves even more investment and somewhere for them to go after youth teams, which in my opinion was exactly what Ron Gordon was trying to create with development team, nothing has changed my mind that his plans were good, it was the execution that was woeful.

Re Landers and Laidlaw, I don't think Hibs could do anything to stop these guys going, its going to seem like a huge step up, even with what seems like almost 100% failure to get beyond the development teams, So again we just need to maximise our returns and reinvest,

Pretty sure I read this week Dundee Utd lost two of their top talents to Norwich and Goodwin seemed pretty pragmatic about it. As someone else has said its a popular business model down South currently.

[Paul1642]

We should close down the academy and forget about trying to develop youth players. It’s a complete waste of time and money.

Use whatever cash we have to sign players ready for the first team.

How much do you think the academy costs to run? We already have the facilities that they use, the young players who are on wages are on low amounts, and the extra coaches won’t be on particularly high salaries either. (As well as developing into potential first team coaches).

It probably just takes a couple of sellable players who came through the academy every decade or so along with a few development fees to at minimum break even. One superstar coming through the ranks could fund the academy for a generation.

Then you factor is that when those sellable players come along every now and again such as Josh Doig and Porto, we get to enjoy them in the first team for a few years, plus we need the academy to play in European competitions.

Basically it’s a no brainer and I don’t think the club are expecting a first team player or two from the academy every season like some fans do.

Even in our current squad, no academy = no Josh Campbell or Rudi Molotnikov.

They might not be our best two players but to sign two players of equal ability would have set us back 500k plus in todays market and who knows how good 18 year old Rudi becomes.

[1875Sean]

100k is peanuts. Landers had been at Hibs for seven or so years, the money paid probably doesn't cover much more than the costs of developing a player over those years. The sell on is a positive but why should his value suddenly leap up just because he's at West Ham's academy with less chance of making the first team as opposed to ours where he had more? Whether its longer contracts or increased minimal compensation for academy players, something probably needs implemented across football as otherwise, for clubs like us, it's just not going to be worth developing talents that may potentially be considered capable of playing at a higher level than Scottish football.

How would one youth player on a small wage not get the costs coveted by 100k? That fee and prob covered a number of players in the squad

[Lago]

I think a club like Hibs should always have an academy. Young players coming through is part of our tradition. If it's doable then we should do it. Like others have said all clubs lose the odd player to England now. I'd rather lose the women's team if we're going to cut back on something.
But that's the problem as I see it young players aren't coming through.

[Baader]

How would one youth player on a small wage not get the costs coveted by 100k? That fee and prob covered a number of players in the squad

Never said it wouldn't cover the costs just that it probably isn't much more than them. When you factor in facilities, staff, a small wage, meals, transport etc on a player it's hardly a ransom. Over 7 years of development it equates to less than 15k a year. If that's the future of a training centre it's barely worth it.

If we're able to bring these guys into the team and benefit from it it's absolutely worthwhile. If it just means having to sell highly regarded talent at prices like that it's probably not. Not the clubs fault it's just one of those things.

[WhileTheChief..]

I think you need an academy team to compete in first team European competitions.
We woudnt have got £3 million for Josh DOIG, either.

If we could a sell a player each season for £3m then I'd be fully behind it.

But before Doig, when was the last time we got over £1m for a player we developed? Fletcher 15 years ago maybe? I don't know, but it doesn't happen often enough.

I reckon we've probably spent more than £3m on youth since the Gordon's took over and haven't really seen much of a return for it.

I'd rather be signed youngsters that other clubs have spent time and money developing. Kinda like what we did with John McGinn.

[greenlex]

If we could a sell a player each season for £3m then I'd be fully behind it.

But before Doig, when was the last time we got over £1m for a player we developed? Fletcher 15 years ago maybe? I don't know, but it doesn't happen often enough.

I reckon we've probably spent more than £3m on youth since the Gordon's took over and haven't really seen much of a return for it.

I'd rather be signed youngsters that other clubs have spent time and money developing. Kinda like what we did with John McGinn.
If it wasn’t viable no club would have a youth set up.
The only club I know that abandoned theirs was Falkirk and look at the mess they got themselves into. The training centre is there. The chefs are there. We are talking relatively little outlay for potentially good return. There’s very few kids leave without a decent sell on clause. It would be stupid to abandon this.

[HIBS NUTS]

If we could a sell a player each season for £3m then I'd be fully behind it.

But before Doig, when was the last time we got over £1m for a player we developed? Fletcher 15 years ago maybe? I don't know, but it doesn't happen often enough.

I reckon we've probably spent more than £3m on youth since the Gordon's took over and haven't really seen much of a return for it.

I'd rather be signed youngsters that other clubs have spent time and money developing. Kinda like what we did with John McGinn.
What about not being able to compete, in any European competitions, for the main squad, when we qualified for the under 19 CL, the club were paid hamesomely by UEFA.
Not to mention the thousands of kids at all level that become hibs supporters, through competing at youth level.
Do you want all these kids to train with hearts.